Exploring Chicago's Mob History From Prohibition To Al Capone

Samuel Fly

Exploring the origin of Chicago's organised crimes in the 1800s, with the start of racing rackets.  Uncover the intricate web of criminal enterprises, from notorious mob families to high-stakes heists, as we delve into the compelling stories behind the criminal masterminds and law enforcement efforts to bring them to justice.

Transcript

00:00:00Villains, gangsters, or faces as they prefer to be called, are the people who've been making

00:00:12the Irish newspaper headlines for all the wrong reasons for the past 50 years. Some

00:00:18are instantly recognisable, many are not.

00:00:21If I knew I was either going to kill someone, I was going to get my life sentence or I was

00:00:25going to be killed.

00:00:26My name is Bernardo Mahoney, and I will be taking you on a journey through the Irish

00:00:32underworld.

00:00:33There's a lot of hitmen in Dublin, and if you cross their paths, you better take them out

00:00:38because if you don't, they're going to take you out.

00:00:41And they don't care whether you're a good person or you're a bad person, and if you have the

00:00:45name done, that's it, you're finished.

00:00:49Some of those involved in Ireland's most infamous crimes have agreed to go on camera for the

00:00:54first time to tell me why and how they say they happened.

00:00:59He's not dead, no?

00:01:00He's not dead.

00:01:01He's not dead.

00:01:02All right.

00:01:02Yet.

00:01:04Hi, this is Wendon and Neil.

00:01:06I'm not as mad as mad as kill other people, but perhaps I never modded this man, I didn't

00:01:09apparently, I had no knowledge of it.

00:01:11I've lived that life.

00:01:12I've experienced the highs and the numerous lows.

00:01:14So let me take you on a journey into the heart of the underworld.

00:01:18My lonely prison walls, I've heard a young man calling.

00:01:36Nothing matters, Mary, when you're free.

00:01:41Raising our children with dignity is a goal we all strive to achieve.

00:02:02Aristotle wrote that poverty is the parent of crime, and according to figures released

00:02:26by Social Justice Ireland, 790,000 people are now living in poverty, a rise of 40,000 since

00:02:352016.

00:02:37An analysis published by the Irish Independent confirmed that people in Ireland are six times

00:02:43more likely to be shot and killed than anywhere else in the Irish and British Isles.

00:02:48Much of this violence is attributed to the increased prevalence of drugs and the clannish culture

00:02:54in organised crime.

00:02:56With disturbing statistics like this, it's hard to argue with Aristotle's conclusion.

00:03:02I spoke to Christy Dunn, who along with many of Ireland's most infamous criminals,

00:03:07was sent to an industrial school as a child, where he suffered horrific abuse.

00:03:12Described by the media as the godfather of Irish crime, Dunn is not a man who often

00:03:17talks about his colourful past.

00:03:19Aggrieved by events in his childhood, he's quick to blame the authorities, but reluctant

00:03:25to accept his own guilt.

00:03:27Before I was 12 years of age, I was sent to an industrial school, and a very, very tough,

00:03:36harsh place where you were beaten, bullied, starved, and a very lonely place.

00:03:47I had to rake out all the fires, light all the fires in the school, in the different classrooms.

00:03:53And the headmaster of the school, he picked on me and tormented me.

00:04:00So one day I gave him a black eye, and that was it.

00:04:05I was just a demon, right?

00:04:08It was like, it was like, as if I killed somebody.

00:04:14And I never really got any education at school or anything like that.

00:04:18And I never got any education when I went into the approved school.

00:04:22And the only thing I learned in there was, I used to have to fight other kids for our dinners,

00:04:30and we'd fight for our food.

00:04:33And we'd go into a handball alley and punch the head off each other, so I could eat his

00:04:38dinner, or he could eat mine, if we had teeth left to eat it with.

00:04:42And that's how bad it was.

00:04:45And it was really bad when I was a kid in Ireland.

00:04:50Well, I mean, if you look around Ireland today, there's so many children suffering.

00:04:55And there's so many people homeless.

00:04:58And all the people who are responsible for all that, they don't know.

00:05:06They don't, they just, they listen to what they're told, and they act upon what they're

00:05:11told, and they don't care whether you're a good person or you're a bad person.

00:05:16And if you have the name Dunn, that's it, you're finished.

00:05:20Still a young boy, a child in fact, Christy Dunn sought refuge from the horrors of the

00:05:26industrial schools in England.

00:05:28So I went to England to my grandfather.

00:05:31And I got, from England, I joined the coal mines.

00:05:38And by the time I was 13 years of age, I was a mile walking on the ground.

00:05:43And so I spent my adolescent years in England, working in England, different jobs, went to

00:05:53sea, different things.

00:05:55I do a lot of film work and all that kind of stuff.

00:05:59And I used to work as an extra and all that.

00:06:03And I worked in about 40 different films.

00:06:06And that, I earned.

00:06:08But then one day I went to get a job on a film.

00:06:11I think it was called Darling Lily with Julie Andrews from Rock Hudson.

00:06:18And when I went down to Actors' Equity to go, to be sent to the location, who did I meet?

00:06:28Only my ex-school inspector.

00:06:31And as soon as he saw me, I never got a job on another film.

00:06:36So they're the people that destroyed my life when I was a kid.

00:06:38Christy was ordered to return to Ireland by his father when his younger brother, Hubert, drowned.

00:06:44Still wanted by the Garda for juvenile misdemeanors, Christy sought sanctuary in a church.

00:06:50Have you ever heard of religious sanctuary?

00:06:53But I saw a sanctuary with a friend of mine, a Jesuit priest, an unsung hero of Ireland.

00:07:00His name was Father Michael Sweetman.

00:07:03He granted me sanctuary.

00:07:05And by the time I left the religious home I was in, writing my book, I got into the taxi business.

00:07:19He arranged to get me a taxi through political influence.

00:07:25And I got a taxi.

00:07:27And I left, met a beautiful young lady, got married.

00:07:33Then I went into the building.

00:07:35Initially, Christy's construction company flourished.

00:07:38But he believed that his reputation and that of his family brought about its downfall.

00:07:43I was very successful.

00:07:45Very successful.

00:07:47And I had four of my brothers working for me.

00:07:49My father was a foreman for me.

00:07:51And the police and other people, they were jealous, as far as I can see.

00:08:04And we were kind of, well, I always felt that myself, I was always kind of,

00:08:14I wouldn't be welcome when I'd be dealing with business people.

00:08:20I'd be frowned upon, looked down upon, because the stigma was there.

00:08:25The stigmata that this is Christy Dunder from the Liberties.

00:08:30And his father was Bronco Dunder, a gunman, right?

00:08:33A man who got convicted for murder, which was spread by a famous journalist here.

00:08:43There's absolutely no truth to that allegation.

00:08:47My father never murdered anybody.

00:08:51But yet, it's all allegations without a grain of truth.

00:08:56But I have the truth.

00:08:57And I know my father never killed anybody.

00:09:03And was never charged with murder, not convicted for murder.

00:09:08My father was never in trouble.

00:09:09My father was a Republican, never involved in crime.

00:09:13Christy's father did kill a man, but he was convicted of manslaughter, not murder.

00:09:19Therefore, neither Christy or the media have been completely honest.

00:09:23Why let the truth spoil a good story some journalists would say in their defence?

00:09:29Christy Dunder would undoubtedly reply,

00:09:31because lies and innuendo can destroy lives.

00:09:35Well, I remember, I went out of business in 1967.

00:09:40I was doing a contract for a very famous family and a doctor who was head of the Crumlin Hospital.

00:09:51And I remember I was working on his house.

00:09:54Excuse me.

00:09:55And I remember going out, getting a phone call from the lady of the house.

00:09:58And she said, Mr. Dunder, will you come out tomorrow and remove all your stuff from the house?

00:10:07And I don't want your men in my house.

00:10:10And I went out and what's the problem?

00:10:13She said, did you watch the television last night?

00:10:17I was wondering what she was talking about.

00:10:19But, however, it seems that this program was on television by a priest being interviewed,

00:10:27a priest who turned out to be notorious in Ireland, right?

00:10:32Father Michael Cleary, they call him the singing priest, denied his own children, right?

00:10:38But anyhow, he demonised me for an hour on television.

00:10:43I never met a man in my life, but he destroyed me.

00:10:48He said I was involved in sex.

00:10:52I was a gangster.

00:10:54I was a godfather.

00:10:55That lady who called me out to remove all my equipment,

00:10:59she relied on what he said on television as being gospel truth.

00:11:05A man I never even met.

00:11:06I wasn't really involved in going out and committing serious crimes or anything like that.

00:11:16I'd say I would have relied on my intelligence.

00:11:22Like, I wasn't foolish or stupid, but I certainly know I never hurted anybody.

00:11:28Like many criminals, Christy Dunn justified his criminal activities

00:11:34by claiming they were carried out to provide for his family.

00:11:38I was just interested in raising my family,

00:11:41but I never got a moment, please, from the police.

00:11:46And because I was the head of the family,

00:11:49you know what they say about cutting the head off?

00:11:52I do.

00:11:52Well, that's the way the police viewed me.

00:11:56My last convictions, for instance,

00:11:59every, every vestige of law was ignored in my case.

00:12:07I was just processed into prison.

00:12:09I kidnapped the postmaster and his wife and children

00:12:14and then stole the money from the post office.

00:12:19Like a tiger kidnap in the corner.

00:12:21Yeah, yeah.

00:12:22It would have been regarded one of the first.

00:12:24And then I was accused of tying a bomb onto the postmaster's back.

00:12:33And indeed, I remember when my trial was in court

00:12:37and they were giving the evidence about the bomb on the postmaster's back.

00:12:41And it was so dramatic that when it got down to the bare essentials,

00:12:48that the bomb on his back was removed and it turned out to be candles.

00:12:54Everybody in the court broke into fits of laughter.

00:12:58And I remember the trial judge at the time,

00:13:02a fellow called Lynch, Dominic Lynch,

00:13:04turning around sharply and looking at me to see my reaction.

00:13:09And I didn't think it was funny.

00:13:12I thought it must have been very traumatic for the postmaster.

00:13:14But the point is, I didn't do what I was charged with.

00:13:18I'm very annoyed about the fact that I was convicted for the Fingless post office

00:13:24because throughout that trial,

00:13:26it was alleged that a young child had been threatened and all that kind of stuff.

00:13:31And look, they called me the godfather,

00:13:35the official godfather of Ireland.

00:13:37I just don't want to know about being a godfather.

00:13:42A good father, yes, but I love children.

00:13:46And the last thing I would ever do is hurt a child.

00:13:49I served a full eight and a half years.

00:13:52But I mean, I went into prison when I was 58 years of age.

00:13:56And when I came out, he gave me 40 quid.

00:13:59And I never, like when I was young,

00:14:03I never drew social welfare or I never sponged.

00:14:07I never changed off the state or anything like that.

00:14:09And when I went to get social welfare,

00:14:13when I went even to get my pension,

00:14:15I had a hard job to get what I'm entitled to.

00:14:21Christy Dunn's reputation has undoubtedly been a heavy cross for him to bear.

00:14:26He is a criminal and many will say he deserves no less.

00:14:30However, many innocent people raised in deprived areas,

00:14:34such as Ballymun in Dublin or Moiross in Lima,

00:14:37find that would-be employers shun them

00:14:39because of the reputation of the areas where they live.

00:14:43Unable to secure legitimate employment,

00:14:46some of these people see crime as the only way to survive.

00:14:51Christy Dunn's younger brother Larry was of that mindset

00:14:54and earned the dubious accolade of being the man who first introduced heroin into Ireland.

00:15:00Nobody could have foreseen the devastation this evil drug was going to cause.

00:15:04Like an aggressive cancer,

00:15:06it transformed legions of healthy young people almost overnight.

00:15:10When the heroin hit the streets of Dublin,

00:15:15and, yeah, you're right there, nobody knew, nobody realised the damage,

00:15:22or the consequences of this devil's poison, as I call it.

00:15:26But it wasn't long before it became obvious the effects of this drug.

00:15:35I mean, you could say Larry was like the Titanic to the Dunn family, right?

00:15:43He brought us all down.

00:15:44If Larry was the Titanic of the Dunn family,

00:15:48Christy was undoubtedly its sistership.

00:15:51In 1966, there were only 12 murders committed in Ireland,

00:15:55none of which involved guns.

00:15:57Just four decades later,

00:15:59there had been a 1,675% increase in murder cases,

00:16:04and a large proportion of those killings were gun-related.

00:16:07The dramatic increase in murder came about

00:16:10because of the introduction of guns and the birth of gangs.

00:16:14They were both a by-product of Sia Era,

00:16:17a group made up of revolutionaries, anarchists and paramilitaries

00:16:21who wanted to ignite a socialist revolution.

00:16:24One of its most prominent members was Christy Dunn.

00:16:27Following the funeral of a comrade,

00:16:29Christy had made a political speech and fired a shot into the air.

00:16:34After being sentenced to six months' imprisonment for that crime,

00:16:38he had ran from the dock and punched the judge.

00:16:41I most certainly did, yes.

00:16:42I am a Republican.

00:16:44Well, I don't wish to say how I assisted the Republican movement,

00:16:51but once you're a Republican, you're a...

00:16:55You're a Republican.

00:16:58A Republican.

00:16:58Yeah.

00:17:00I believe in a free Ireland by peace or means.

00:17:05That's what I believe in.

00:17:06We had a great man here, Michael Collins.

00:17:09He went to England, signed a treaty, came back to Ireland,

00:17:14and half the people didn't accept the treaty,

00:17:18and a civil war ensued.

00:17:20You had people who fought against the treaty,

00:17:23people who fought for the treaty.

00:17:24But they all ended up becoming policemen, right?

00:17:29And some of them turned out to be the worst bastards,

00:17:34God forgive me for saying it, that I ever met.

00:17:37Those people and school inspectors and priests,

00:17:41they went around spying on families in ghetto areas.

00:17:46The 3rd of April 1970 was a defining moment in Irish criminal history.

00:17:54Four armed members of Sierra Era shot dead Richard Fallon,

00:17:59an unarmed policeman.

00:18:00The Rubicon had been crossed.

00:18:03The age of innocence was no more.

00:18:06Gun crime in Ireland had arrived.

00:18:08In the north, others driven by civil rights abuses

00:18:12and Republican ideals tore up their ballot papers

00:18:16and picked up the Armalite.

00:18:19Joe Doherty is one of the IRA's most infamous volunteers.

00:18:23He shot dead an SAS captain and escaped from prison

00:18:27before seeking refuge in the United States.

00:18:30The pro-Republican Americans warmed to Joe,

00:18:33and a street was named after him in New York.

00:18:36But Joe seeks neither praise nor recognition for the things he did.

00:18:40The war in Ireland is a struggle he believes

00:18:43should never have happened.

00:18:45Over 20,000 people were burnt out of their homes,

00:18:48had to flee across the border and things like that there.

00:18:51However, the British government reacted and sent the British army

00:18:55and at that particular time he thought they were coming to save us

00:18:58in the sense they were.

00:19:00His young squaddies coming onto the street,

00:19:01they sympathised with Catholics,

00:19:03they knew about the discrimination,

00:19:05they knew about the attacks on our home,

00:19:07but politics had taken hold

00:19:08and the British army, for some reason,

00:19:11had turned on our community.

00:19:12So I actually remember going to school,

00:19:14being stopped by British army patrols.

00:19:16It was the year 14 before I got to school.

00:19:18School books were thrown onto the street.

00:19:20So they were very aggressive.

00:19:22When you were put against the wall with your hands up against the wall,

00:19:25sirs, you were called Irish bee or whatever.

00:19:27All of a sudden, the young lad at 14, 15,

00:19:30I had a sense of being anti-British.

00:19:33And there wasn't a sense about the British people,

00:19:35it's what the British government was doing here.

00:19:37So I got involved in the riots around here,

00:19:39throwing stones and patrabonds, whatever.

00:19:40Then I joined an organisation called the Fianna Iron,

00:19:44and it's an Irish Republican scout movement,

00:19:47but not like your normal scouts,

00:19:49because we were taken into small rooms like this

00:19:51and we were taught hard to put bombs together,

00:19:55explosives, AM1 carbons, Thompson submachine gun.

00:19:59I mean, you raise, I'm a youth worker now,

00:20:02and when I think back, we were only 14, 15 years of age.

00:20:05We were children, you get a fact.

00:20:07But then I thought, this is what I want to do.

00:20:09I want to fight for Ireland.

00:20:10I want to fight for Irish freedom.

00:20:12There are, of course, always two sides to every story.

00:20:16Johnny Adair and Sam McCrory

00:20:17were Ulster's most infamous loyalist terrorists.

00:20:20From a very early age,

00:20:23they felt that their community and way of life

00:20:25was being threatened by Republicans.

00:20:28They had been brought up believing

00:20:29that Ulster was and should remain British,

00:20:32and all Catholics were their enemy.

00:20:35But nobody ever explained to them why.

00:20:37It was about eight or nine

00:20:38when the troubles just broke out for real in 1969.

00:20:42And from there on, right through my teenage and adult,

00:20:45whole life, we were just brought up

00:20:47hating everything Catholic and Republican.

00:20:49We felt threatened and it was drummed into us

00:20:52that these people hated us

00:20:53and they wanted to kill us

00:20:54because they didn't like everything British.

00:20:58People were burned out of their homes,

00:20:59Protestants in one area and Catholics in the other,

00:21:01in mixed areas.

00:21:03And then it went down that both communities

00:21:05just lived in separate areas,

00:21:08like for example, the Falls and the Shankle.

00:21:10Shankle was Protestants and Falls was Catholics.

00:21:15We were down to join the Loyalist Power Moultrie group,

00:21:17namely the Ulster Defence Association,

00:21:19which was illegal in them times.

00:21:22And this is just throughout the years,

00:21:24as the troubles progressed and got worse,

00:21:27and we were just born into them.

00:21:28Well, I think just as you grow up

00:21:30and you're in your area

00:21:31and you see the attacks that were coming on there

00:21:33by the Republican movement

00:21:35and the nationalist community,

00:21:36you just have said that enough was enough

00:21:38because the government weren't giving me any hand

00:21:41and the soldiers and the police weren't giving me any hand,

00:21:43so you just say to take matters in your own hand,

00:21:45join the power military and fight back.

00:21:47I'd been to prison on a number of occasions

00:21:49for attempted murders of Sinn Féin members,

00:21:55possession of weapons, membership,

00:21:58and the most serious charge would have been directing terrorism

00:22:00where I received 16 years in prison for that.

00:22:04What about you, Skel?

00:22:05What were you in prison for?

00:22:06Conspiracy to murder.

00:22:08Five of us, one in the leading car,

00:22:10four in the hijack car,

00:22:12were caught with an AK-47 machine gun,

00:22:15the handgun,

00:22:17got up into West Belfast

00:22:18to kill the leader of Belfast IRA.

00:22:22So we were caught on route.

00:22:25But before,

00:22:26they'd done two one-year remands

00:22:28for attempted murders,

00:22:29kidnapping, hijacking,

00:22:31and lifted numerous times along my journey

00:22:33for numerous murders,

00:22:35numerous attempted murders,

00:22:36numerous bombings and shootings.

00:22:38But it was all par for course.

00:22:40I mean, it's just part and parcel of the game.

00:22:42The heroin epidemic that Larry Dunn had spawned

00:22:45was seen by some terrorist organisations

00:22:48as a means of attracting support for their cause.

00:22:52Heroin had destroyed the lives of thousands of people

00:22:55and so the paramilitaries began executing dealers

00:22:58in an effort to win favour

00:23:00with disgruntled members of the public.

00:23:03However, many believe that this was just a front

00:23:05to control the lucrative trade themselves

00:23:07and time has proved that they were right.

00:23:11There was no longer need for either the IRA

00:23:15or Loyalist paramilitaries,

00:23:17but they still exist today,

00:23:19but they exist only for criminality.

00:23:20Just in criminality only.

00:23:23We were there to defend our communities.

00:23:25See the people now, 20 years fast forward,

00:23:28are tire-raising their own communities.

00:23:30They're flooding with drugs.

00:23:32Know what I mean?

00:23:32They're shooting people dead on a monthly basis

00:23:36or knee-camping or punishment beatings for no reason.

00:23:39So the very people that we fought to protect,

00:23:41they are now tire-raising them.

00:23:43They're nothing but...

00:23:44Honestly, they're just...

00:23:45They're using the name as Loyalist.

00:23:47They're using it as a cover name as gangsterism.

00:23:50And that's why they're just tire-raising their own community,

00:23:52the very community that we protected.

00:23:55The terrorists were not the only people

00:23:57who were refusing to stand by and watch heroin

00:24:00wipe out a generation of children.

00:24:02Dubliner, Mick Rafferty and others

00:24:05formed a group called the Concerned Parents Against Drugs.

00:24:08The root of the drug problem in this area is in the 70s

00:24:13when the nature of employment in this area changed.

00:24:18The docs changed, containerisation.

00:24:21All the doc-related industry vanished.

00:24:24So there was a whole generation in the 70s and early 80s

00:24:28who...

00:24:29There was mass unemployment.

00:24:31During that summer of 82,

00:24:32the area was swamped with not just marijuana,

00:24:39not just with soft drugs, but with heroin.

00:24:42Kids were falling into that abyss of addiction.

00:24:46Initially, we formed the Concerned Parents.

00:24:49And the motto was very simple.

00:24:51The motto was pushers out.

00:24:53Pushers, pushers, pushers, out, out, out.

00:24:55And the state, rather than entering into a dialogue

00:25:00with the parents of addicts,

00:25:03they saw it as some sort of IRA front, IRA...

00:25:08You know, as a subversive organisation.

00:25:11So an opportunity was missed.

00:25:13Now, there was absolutely no doubt

00:25:16that the state targeted some of the leaders

00:25:19and they ended up in prison

00:25:20for trying to protect their young.

00:25:24The Concerned Parents group would identify drug dealers

00:25:28then mobilise hundreds of residents

00:25:31who would go to the dealer's door

00:25:33and tell them that they had to quit dealing or leave.

00:25:37Those foolish enough to resist

00:25:39were beaten and forcefully evicted from their homes.

00:25:44In one incident, a heroin addict died.

00:25:47This led to the Garda charging four leading figures

00:25:50in the Concerned Parents group

00:25:52for their roles in various incidents.

00:25:54They spent a year in prison awaiting trial

00:25:57and this led to the collapse of the movement.

00:26:01The state woke up when Veronica Goering,

00:26:03a campaigning journalist,

00:26:05was shot or assassinated openly on the Nace Road

00:26:09by one of the gangs

00:26:10because she was exposing them.

00:26:13For a while, the then minister, Pat Rabbit,

00:26:17sought out community participation

00:26:20in the responses to the issues.

00:26:23That's all gone.

00:26:26The foot has been taken off the pedal.

00:26:28A few people will actually say,

00:26:31even though there's different types of drugs now,

00:26:35it's much more complicated

00:26:36that the drug problem is as bad now

00:26:38as it was in the dark days of the 80s.

00:26:42The problem now is the dealers have got much more brazen.

00:26:46So the nature of the problem keeps changing.

00:26:49And we'd argue that unless you get to the roots

00:26:52of the demand for drugs,

00:26:55which in our opinion lies in social exclusion,

00:26:59poverty, the nature of a class society,

00:27:03unless you get to that roots, you'll always have it.

00:27:06You'll always have the demand.

00:27:07On Wednesday, the 15th of December, 1993,

00:27:12a joint declaration of peace

00:27:14brought about a ceasefire

00:27:16between the warring factions in Ireland.

00:27:19This encouraged organisations like the IRA

00:27:22to step up their war on criminal gangs

00:27:25in the hope it would help them achieve their ambitions

00:27:28via the ballot box.

00:27:30Clearing the states of heroin

00:27:32would undoubtedly be a vote winner.

00:27:34And so death squads made up of ruthless terrorists

00:27:38like Billy Clare

00:27:39were sent in to eliminate the dealers.

00:27:43I suppose going back to where it all began for me

00:27:45was when I was involved in the concerned parents

00:27:48against drugs on the south side of Dublin

00:27:50with, at that time,

00:27:52some very, very good Republicans

00:27:54who were committed to the war on drugs.

00:27:59And I suppose the most notorious target

00:28:01of the concerned parents against drugs

00:28:03in that time was a fellow by the name of Jimmy Gantley.

00:28:08Two operations against him at the time

00:28:10of the concerned parents

00:28:12was one, an attempt to blow his house up

00:28:14and wit him in it.

00:28:16Was anyone arrested for that?

00:28:17Well, I was arrested for that back then

00:28:20and again released through lack of evidence.

00:28:25And that was, you know,

00:28:27he lived to fight another day

00:28:28or to deal another day.

00:28:30What sort of operations did you,

00:28:35you know, were you sent on

00:28:36when you were in the IRA in Dublin?

00:28:41Well, I mean,

00:28:42the ones that I can discuss about

00:28:45mostly were actually directed

00:28:48towards drug dealers

00:28:49and that kind of activity

00:28:51was mostly the activity

00:28:54and was centred around attacks on drug dealers.

00:28:57And things like that, you know,

00:29:00that was sort of Dublin.

00:29:01So can you describe how that works?

00:29:03Was it direct action against drugs?

00:29:05Was that the...

00:29:06Well, there were community-based groups

00:29:08that Republicans supported

00:29:11and threw their support behind.

00:29:14I suppose that was my aim

00:29:17was just to target drug dealers

00:29:19as whether they targeted them or not.

00:29:23But when you say a targeted drug dealers,

00:29:25did you name them and shame them or...?

00:29:28Well, execute them.

00:29:30Execute them.

00:29:31Yeah.

00:29:31I suppose if you're looking for one incident,

00:29:34I suppose these...

00:29:36What the media portrays as notorious,

00:29:38these Westies,

00:29:39these characters who were...

00:29:41You know,

00:29:42where we had one incident

00:29:43where there were causing chaos

00:29:47and havoc in Blanchestown,

00:29:48an area in the north side of Dublin.

00:29:50and Bernard Suggs,

00:29:55or Verb as they call them,

00:29:57he was asked to come to a meeting

00:29:59and when he came to that meeting,

00:30:01he was asked to desist from his activities

00:30:04and leave the area.

00:30:06He refused to do so

00:30:07and as a result of that meeting,

00:30:09he was blasted twice in the stomach

00:30:11and left squealing on the ground

00:30:13like a pig in the rat he was.

00:30:15And, I mean,

00:30:17that was his kind of...

00:30:19His claim to fame.

00:30:21He was soon executed

00:30:22by other drug dealers after that,

00:30:23but that was,

00:30:24I suppose,

00:30:25one incident where

00:30:26these people were portrayed in the media

00:30:30as dangerous armed

00:30:31and dangerous drug dealers,

00:30:33but, you know,

00:30:34the media like to portray people

00:30:36as something they're not

00:30:38and as a result,

00:30:39they get hurt.

00:30:40Billy's crusade

00:30:41wasn't just aimed at gangsters

00:30:43involved in the drug trade.

00:30:45He claims terrorists

00:30:47or anyone else earning money directly

00:30:49or indirectly from drugs

00:30:51were legitimate targets.

00:30:53In one incident where,

00:30:54in Gowrie, County Wexford,

00:30:56in the south of Ireland,

00:30:57where on a road like this

00:30:59where one member of the continuity IRA

00:31:01and his drug dealing friend

00:31:03was in the passenger seat

00:31:04and when they got to the roundabout

00:31:06on the main road,

00:31:07a car came up behind them

00:31:09and there was a car in front of them.

00:31:11That slowed down

00:31:11and as the car slowed down,

00:31:14the jeep had to slow down

00:31:15to eventually till it stopped

00:31:16and as the Irish police maintained

00:31:20that I jumped out of the car

00:31:21and manhandled the two drug dealers

00:31:24to the ground

00:31:25and as they went to the ground,

00:31:27allegedly,

00:31:28that I held a gun to their heads

00:31:31and tried to shoot them

00:31:32but the gun jammed

00:31:33and as the media then,

00:31:35if you read the media,

00:31:36I was subsequently arrested

00:31:37for trying to execute them

00:31:40two dirty Republican rats,

00:31:43drug dealing rats

00:31:43and I was arrested and held

00:31:45for two days

00:31:46as a result of that incident.

00:31:48drug dealers were executed

00:31:50in the 80s and 90s

00:31:51and continue to be,

00:31:52I suppose.

00:31:53But are they warned?

00:31:55Are they, you know...

00:31:57Well, it would be highly unlikely

00:31:59that they would be warned.

00:32:01It would be a highly unlikely situation

00:32:03if a drug dealer was warned

00:32:04or that he was going to be kidnapped,

00:32:06if he was going to be abducted

00:32:08or punishment, shooting or executed.

00:32:11But isn't there a danger

00:32:13if I went to the Republicans

00:32:15as a concerned community member

00:32:18and said, you know,

00:32:20Billy Smith is a drug dealer

00:32:22and they don't warn him,

00:32:23they just whack him?

00:32:24Well, you see, I mean,

00:32:25it's not as plain.

00:32:27I mean, obviously,

00:32:28there'd be an investigation

00:32:29and people on the ground.

00:32:31I mean, Ireland is a small country

00:32:34and Dublin is a small place

00:32:35and pretty much people know

00:32:36who people are

00:32:37and what people do

00:32:38so it wouldn't be a case

00:32:40where somebody would just come to somebody

00:32:41and say, look, he's doing this.

00:32:43There obviously would be

00:32:44an intense investigation

00:32:46into that person

00:32:47and his activities

00:32:48before any decisive action was taken.

00:32:54So how long did you...

00:32:57Were you a member of the IRA

00:32:58and how did you come to leave?

00:33:00Well, I was expelled

00:33:02from the provisional IRA

00:33:04for my pursuit of action

00:33:08against drug dealers.

00:33:09That's why I was expelled

00:33:11and that's the only reason

00:33:12why I was expelled

00:33:13from the provisional IRA.

00:33:15I was expelled for my war

00:33:19against the drug dealers in Dublin.

00:33:21Extreme republicanism,

00:33:23whereas I then, you know,

00:33:25was caught up with the INLA

00:33:29for a number of years.

00:33:32I mean, in fairness to them,

00:33:33they were more extreme

00:33:36in their views

00:33:37against drug dealers

00:33:38and at that time anyway,

00:33:40they were certainly...

00:33:41They were on board with my views

00:33:43when I thought it was a good platform

00:33:46to continue, you know,

00:33:49struggling against drug dealers in Dublin.

00:33:52So what about your time with the INLA?

00:33:54I mean, what's the difference

00:33:56between the INLA and the IRA?

00:33:57Well, the provisional IRA

00:34:00were a very well-organised,

00:34:02very well-armed,

00:34:03very well-organised

00:34:03and disciplined organisation.

00:34:07The INLA were a much more smaller,

00:34:10you know,

00:34:10but, you know,

00:34:12if not ruthless organisation.

00:34:15But certainly my time

00:34:17within the INLA,

00:34:18we had the same...

00:34:19Most of the members in Dublin

00:34:22had the same train of thought

00:34:24and it was extreme,

00:34:26you know,

00:34:27extreme violence

00:34:28against drug dealers,

00:34:30which, I mean,

00:34:31you can't...

00:34:32You have to show these people

00:34:33more violence

00:34:34than they have imagined

00:34:37because these people

00:34:38live on a pedestal

00:34:39that because you're a drug dealer

00:34:41they must be violent

00:34:42and they must be feared,

00:34:44you know, so you...

00:34:44What sort of attacks

00:34:45has carried out on these...

00:34:47on drug dealers?

00:34:48Is it just shootings or...?

00:34:49Have you got any

00:34:50knowledge of...

00:34:53or examples

00:34:54of other types of attacks?

00:34:56Well, there's no...

00:34:58You know,

00:34:59there'd be no limit.

00:35:00You wouldn't limit yourself

00:35:01to one type of attack.

00:35:04There'd be...

00:35:05You know, as I say,

00:35:06like I said,

00:35:07you don't...

00:35:08You don't come to fight

00:35:10big drug gangs

00:35:11who have assets behind them

00:35:13using Salvation Army tactics.

00:35:15You've got to hit them

00:35:16with full strength

00:35:17and everything you've got,

00:35:18you know,

00:35:19and look for their weakness

00:35:20and when you find a weakness,

00:35:21you know,

00:35:22that's...

00:35:23You know,

00:35:24whether it's kidnapping,

00:35:25shootings,

00:35:26petrol bombings,

00:35:27grenades,

00:35:27whatever,

00:35:28you know,

00:35:28is being used on them.

00:35:30You know,

00:35:30people would support that,

00:35:31I suppose,

00:35:32because these people

00:35:33are devastating communities

00:35:35and, you know,

00:35:37they've no...

00:35:37They don't care about

00:35:38what they sell

00:35:40or who they sell it to.

00:35:41So you must meet them

00:35:42with the same...

00:35:43the same train of thought

00:35:44that you don't care

00:35:45about them

00:35:46or their families.

00:35:47Where did your time

00:35:48at the INLA

00:35:48come to an end?

00:35:50It pretty much

00:35:51came to an end

00:35:51with Declan Duffy

00:35:52who's leader

00:35:54of the INLA

00:35:55in Dublin

00:35:55who was...

00:35:56You know,

00:35:57he was a character,

00:35:58you know,

00:35:58he was involved

00:35:59in, you know,

00:36:01in backing up drug dealers

00:36:02and supporting drug dealers

00:36:05while pretending

00:36:06to be some kind

00:36:08of crusader

00:36:08against drug dealers.

00:36:10But, you know,

00:36:11he's unscrupulous people

00:36:12and if you move it up

00:36:14then to the likes

00:36:15of the Real IRA

00:36:15where you had

00:36:16these characters

00:36:17in Dublin

00:36:18who tried to promote

00:36:20a culture of fear

00:36:22but there were no more

00:36:24than street gangsters

00:36:25and street cowards

00:36:26and tried to live

00:36:28on a reputation

00:36:29that because they were

00:36:30part of an organisation,

00:36:32that they were

00:36:33to be feared

00:36:33but it turned out

00:36:35to be nothing more

00:36:36than supporters

00:36:38of drug dealers

00:36:38as well

00:36:39and that was their downfall

00:36:40because they were

00:36:41so intertwined

00:36:41in the drug game

00:36:43that eventually

00:36:43led to their demise.

00:36:46What happened

00:36:47to Duffy then?

00:36:48Well, Duffy was expelled

00:36:48from Dublin

00:36:49by people

00:36:50who would be

00:36:53against drugs

00:36:55and that

00:36:55he was

00:36:57no longer wanted

00:36:58here

00:36:59because of his

00:36:59association

00:37:00with drug dealers.

00:37:02supporting drug dealers

00:37:03and being paid

00:37:04by drug dealers

00:37:05to go up

00:37:06against other drug dealers

00:37:07and you know

00:37:08I mean

00:37:09I suppose

00:37:09if you like

00:37:11to

00:37:11you have to be

00:37:12clear cut

00:37:13in the game

00:37:13you're in

00:37:14it's either

00:37:14you can't have

00:37:16one foot in

00:37:17and one foot out

00:37:17it's black and white

00:37:19basically

00:37:20and you know

00:37:21you won't last long

00:37:22and that's what

00:37:23happened I suppose

00:37:24with the leadership

00:37:25of the real IRA

00:37:26they were

00:37:27cavorting with

00:37:28drug dealers

00:37:28and eventually

00:37:30that led to

00:37:30their demise

00:37:31they weren't

00:37:32clear cut

00:37:32they weren't

00:37:33black and white

00:37:33they weren't

00:37:34a force

00:37:34against drug dealers

00:37:35so what happened

00:37:37to Duffy

00:37:37then

00:37:37he was expelled

00:37:38from Dublin

00:37:38he was expelled

00:37:39and he was sent

00:37:39he was sent

00:37:40packing

00:37:40from the capital

00:37:42but he's not dead

00:37:44now

00:37:44he's not dead

00:37:45he's not dead

00:37:45all right

00:37:46yet

00:37:46in 2010

00:37:50Billy was left

00:37:51clinically dead

00:37:52following his arrest

00:37:54for the murder

00:37:54of 26 year old

00:37:56Stephen Amira

00:37:57father of three

00:37:59Amira

00:37:59was shot

00:38:00but still alive

00:38:01when his killer

00:38:02took him into the woods

00:38:04threw him into a

00:38:05pre-dug grave

00:38:06and buried him alive

00:38:07I was on my way

00:38:09to the gym

00:38:10in I think it was

00:38:12October 2010

00:38:13and I was surrounded

00:38:16by police

00:38:16in balaclavas

00:38:17with heckler and cock

00:38:20machine guns

00:38:20and glock pistols

00:38:21all automatic weapons

00:38:22having no regard

00:38:24for the public safety

00:38:25surrounded me

00:38:26in a circle formation

00:38:28with automatic weapons

00:38:29and I was

00:38:31where I was

00:38:32I was rendered

00:38:33unconscious

00:38:33and I think

00:38:35it was later on

00:38:36that day

00:38:36where I was rushed

00:38:37into hospital

00:38:39in Dublin

00:38:39and I was

00:38:42I was pronounced

00:38:43clinically dead

00:38:43for a short while

00:38:44and later

00:38:45it transpired

00:38:45that they had

00:38:46forced me

00:38:47to drink

00:38:48poison

00:38:49that which

00:38:50there was no

00:38:51traces found

00:38:51but the hospital

00:38:52records showed

00:38:53that exactly

00:38:55what happened

00:38:56and that's

00:38:58what happened

00:38:59and then I was

00:39:00as I say

00:39:00I was brought back

00:39:01to life

00:39:01in I think

00:39:02it was

00:39:02Vincent's Hospital

00:39:03in Dublin

00:39:04and made a full recovery

00:39:05what were they

00:39:07arresting you for

00:39:07murder

00:39:08for murder

00:39:09murder yeah

00:39:10allegedly for

00:39:12burying a drug dealer

00:39:13shooting and burying

00:39:16a drug dealer

00:39:16up the mountains

00:39:17and he was found

00:39:18six months later

00:39:18allegedly

00:39:19what about today

00:39:20are you a member

00:39:20of any group now

00:39:21no no I distance

00:39:23myself now from

00:39:24republicanism completely

00:39:25and as we speak

00:39:27today I see them

00:39:29now I see

00:39:29republicans in Dublin

00:39:30the likes of the real

00:39:32IRM

00:39:32I class them now

00:39:33as a legitimate target

00:39:34they're as far as

00:39:37I was concerned

00:39:37that they

00:39:38work hand in hand

00:39:41with senior drug dealers

00:39:43both here

00:39:44and in Spain

00:39:44and as I said

00:39:47they would be

00:39:47a legitimate target

00:39:48now

00:39:48and they have been

00:39:50for some time

00:39:51one suspects

00:39:53that Billy's

00:39:53life insurance

00:39:54premiums

00:39:55are higher

00:39:55than the average

00:39:56mortgage

00:39:57and he must have

00:39:58as many fans

00:39:59as enemies

00:39:59sinner or saint

00:40:01it's hard to decide

00:40:03but it's pretty much

00:40:04odds on

00:40:05that he will never

00:40:06reach old age

00:40:07the future is rosy

00:40:09and bright

00:40:09and it's never

00:40:11been any other way

00:40:11and we continue

00:40:13you know

00:40:14doing what we do

00:40:15and you know

00:40:16we'll give it

00:40:18to the best

00:40:18of our ability

00:40:19and it's been like

00:40:20that since I was

00:40:21in my teens

00:40:22and I don't see it

00:40:23changing anytime soon

00:40:24I think the only time

00:40:25I'll stop is when

00:40:26I take my last breath

00:40:27which may come about

00:40:30because of

00:40:31somebody else

00:40:33wanting to take you out

00:40:34well I'm the same

00:40:36as any other person

00:40:37but you know

00:40:37I don't take it

00:40:39as a

00:40:40you know

00:40:41we just do what we do

00:40:42and you know

00:40:43we don't gloat

00:40:44doesn't that bother you

00:40:47then

00:40:47not in the slightest

00:40:48and do you think

00:40:49you are a target

00:40:50for some people

00:40:50it's quite possible

00:40:51some of these

00:40:53drug dealers

00:40:54and gangsters

00:40:55blow some of that

00:40:56stuff up their nose

00:40:56and might dream

00:40:58and talk about it

00:40:59but you know

00:40:59we're here

00:41:00I'm here

00:41:02I'm not hiding

00:41:03I'm here

00:41:04so I'm up front

00:41:05and centre

00:41:06when you consider

00:41:09the pitfalls

00:41:10of being a drug dealer

00:41:11imprisonment

00:41:13being evicted

00:41:14by concerned parents

00:41:15or executed

00:41:17by the likes

00:41:17of Billy Clare

00:41:18it's surprising

00:41:19that anyone

00:41:20with a hint

00:41:21of common sense

00:41:22would get involved

00:41:23but drug dealing

00:41:25is a career choice

00:41:26for many

00:41:27because it offers

00:41:28riches beyond the means

00:41:29of most unqualified

00:41:30working class people

00:41:31Sean Donoghue

00:41:33was a significant

00:41:35heroin dealer

00:41:36in Dublin

00:41:36like many

00:41:38Sean's childhood dreams

00:41:40were forged

00:41:41by the gangsters

00:41:42on the rundown estate

00:41:43where he spent

00:41:44his formative years

00:41:45they flaunted

00:41:46the rewards

00:41:47of their illicit trade

00:41:48impressing

00:41:50and ultimately

00:41:50influencing

00:41:51the children

00:41:52they lived amongst

00:41:53my earliest memories

00:41:55of growing up in Dublin

00:41:56when I was on the streets

00:41:57you know

00:41:58we'd have

00:41:58the only games

00:41:59or toys we had

00:42:00back then

00:42:01was to lease the cans

00:42:02for kick the can

00:42:03and hide and seek

00:42:04and all that type

00:42:04so we used to see guys

00:42:05and rob motorbikes

00:42:07and you know

00:42:08taking chases

00:42:08off the police

00:42:09and stuff like that

00:42:10and we used to

00:42:11kind of look to them

00:42:12and think

00:42:12wow I want to be

00:42:12just like him

00:42:13they were like

00:42:14hero type figures

00:42:15when we were kids

00:42:16growing up

00:42:16you know

00:42:17when you go around

00:42:18Dublin now

00:42:18and you'll see

00:42:19all big flash

00:42:20BMs

00:42:20Mercedes

00:42:21especially all these

00:42:22you know

00:42:24all the big drug dealers

00:42:25all their girlfriends

00:42:26and all their friends

00:42:27they're all driving

00:42:27the big flash cars

00:42:28and kids

00:42:29unfortunately

00:42:30grow up and see that

00:42:30and they see the easy money

00:42:32and the easy lifestyle

00:42:33but they don't know

00:42:34what comes behind that

00:42:35they just see all the good stuff

00:42:37and the glitter and glamour

00:42:38but behind all of that

00:42:39is madness

00:42:40there's madness

00:42:41and there's no peace

00:42:41in that life

00:42:42you know

00:42:42nothing but trouble comes with it

00:42:44and we moved out to Clendalkin then

00:42:46when I was around 13-14 years of age

00:42:49and my dad started to hit me

00:42:50a bit more and more

00:42:51so I ran away from home

00:42:52started sleeping in the back of cars

00:42:54every night

00:42:55as a 13-14 year old kid

00:42:56you know

00:42:57like

00:42:57I was only a kid

00:42:59so that was

00:43:00survival of the fittest really

00:43:03then I had to

00:43:03I had to steal

00:43:05I had to learn to steal

00:43:06I had to learn to fight

00:43:07on the streets

00:43:08to survive

00:43:09basically

00:43:09as a young kid

00:43:10most of my friends

00:43:11in the housing state

00:43:12where we grew up

00:43:13in Clendalkin

00:43:14would have come from

00:43:15some sort of

00:43:15dysfunctional family

00:43:16their parents

00:43:18would have been

00:43:18alcoholics

00:43:19or on drugs

00:43:19or whatever

00:43:20so

00:43:21growing up as kids

00:43:23in the estates

00:43:24we could all relate to each other

00:43:25so we all stuck together

00:43:26we were all like brothers

00:43:27we were

00:43:27like a band of brothers

00:43:28we all used to look over each other

00:43:30and we start

00:43:31drinking alcohol

00:43:32around the parks

00:43:33and then from there

00:43:34then it progressed

00:43:35from robbing

00:43:35small motorbikes

00:43:37to robbing cars

00:43:38and then we became

00:43:40good at robbing cars

00:43:41and we became good drivers

00:43:42and pretty skilful drivers too

00:43:44so then we started doing

00:43:46robberies all around the country

00:43:47Inevitably

00:43:48Donoghue was eventually

00:43:49caught and imprisoned

00:43:50where he met an old friend

00:43:52who introduced him

00:43:53to the murky world

00:43:54of drug dealing

00:43:55I met one particular

00:43:56friend of mine

00:43:57he's a really good friend of mine

00:44:00and he'd be very much involved

00:44:03in moving drugs around

00:44:05large amounts of drugs

00:44:06like you know

00:44:07we became very good friends

00:44:09in prison

00:44:09and me being a criminal

00:44:12I wanted the easy money

00:44:13I didn't want to be

00:44:13doing robberies anymore

00:44:14because it was all getting

00:44:15too hard now

00:44:16too much technology

00:44:17so when I finished

00:44:18the eight years in prison

00:44:19I came out and started

00:44:20selling drugs

00:44:21first of all

00:44:23in the city centre

00:44:23here in Dublin

00:44:24flooded the place

00:44:25for heroin

00:44:26it was already flooding

00:44:27anyways

00:44:27I just happened to get

00:44:28a good spot

00:44:28and flood that

00:44:29I'd make anything

00:44:32between 4,000 euro a day

00:44:35that was just getting

00:44:36other addicts

00:44:36to knock out heroin

00:44:37for me

00:44:37like you know

00:44:384,000 euro a day

00:44:39add up at the end of the week

00:44:40it's nice money

00:44:41and it's easy money

00:44:42easy money may be

00:44:44but at what price

00:44:45Sean's closest friend

00:44:47James Kenny McDonough

00:44:49went missing

00:44:50in October 2010

00:44:52he had fallen out

00:44:53with a gang

00:44:54over a drug debt

00:44:55and was also

00:44:56suspected of involvement

00:44:57in the attempted murder

00:44:59of Mark the guinea pig

00:45:00Desmond

00:45:01a notorious

00:45:02Dublin gangster

00:45:0314 months later

00:45:05two hikers

00:45:06in the Dublin hills

00:45:07discovered

00:45:08McDonough's body

00:45:09God I believe

00:45:10he was shot in the head

00:45:11in a revenge attack

00:45:12by Desmond

00:45:13who has since

00:45:14been murdered himself

00:45:15my friend James

00:45:17yeah he was

00:45:18unfortunately

00:45:21he was abducted

00:45:22on the back road

00:45:23and took up the mountains

00:45:24and shot him

00:45:24the head up there

00:45:25you know

00:45:25he found his body

00:45:26two years later

00:45:27back then

00:45:28there was a couple

00:45:29of different gangs

00:45:30who had a couple

00:45:31of different grievances

00:45:32with each other

00:45:32so I was guilty

00:45:33through association

00:45:34because of who

00:45:35my friends were

00:45:36this gang

00:45:38wants to shoot

00:45:39a few heads

00:45:40in this gang

00:45:40and this gang

00:45:41wants to shoot

00:45:41a few heads

00:45:42in this gang

00:45:43and then you're

00:45:44caught in the middle

00:45:44before you know it

00:45:45even though you've

00:45:46nothing got to do

00:45:47with the shootings

00:45:47because these are

00:45:48your friends over here

00:45:49you're guilty as well

00:45:50anyone in them circles

00:45:52knows who all

00:45:53the hitmen are

00:45:54in Dublin

00:45:54the main hitmen

00:45:57in Dublin

00:45:57you know

00:45:59there's a lot of guys

00:46:00in this city

00:46:00who take you

00:46:01out with a blink of an eye

00:46:02and wooden baton

00:46:04they're doing it

00:46:05you know

00:46:05and they're good

00:46:06at what they do

00:46:06they're no slouches

00:46:08and they're no easy

00:46:09it's like you know

00:46:09they'll put trackers

00:46:10on your car

00:46:11they'll do all

00:46:12high-tech stuff

00:46:13on you

00:46:13just to get you

00:46:14exactly where

00:46:14they want you

00:46:15and then they'll

00:46:15come up and bang you

00:46:16the last guy

00:46:17who got done there

00:46:177-8 months ago

00:46:19the guinea pig's

00:46:20nickname is

00:46:21.38 revolver

00:46:22you know

00:46:24tracked him down

00:46:25for years

00:46:26but they eventually

00:46:26got him

00:46:27in the park

00:46:28over and looking

00:46:28there

00:46:29so you know

00:46:30it's just a matter

00:46:31of time

00:46:31in that world

00:46:32and when you're

00:46:33living that lifestyle

00:46:34you know

00:46:35the very nature

00:46:36of crime

00:46:37in modern times

00:46:38has made

00:46:38old-fashioned

00:46:39policing redundant

00:46:40officers are

00:46:42pitting their wits

00:46:43against criminals

00:46:44who use

00:46:44high-tech equipment

00:46:45and wield

00:46:46high-powered weapons

00:46:47in their quest

00:46:48for control

00:46:49inevitably

00:46:50almost understandably

00:46:52a minority

00:46:53of officers

00:46:54frustrated by

00:46:55the gall of

00:46:55criminals

00:46:56remove those

00:46:57they deem guilty

00:46:58by any means

00:46:59necessary

00:47:00Donoghue claims

00:47:01that he was set up

00:47:02for possessing heroin

00:47:03that actually

00:47:04belonged to her

00:47:04friend

00:47:05he was sentenced

00:47:06to eight years

00:47:07imprisonment

00:47:08they wanted me

00:47:09off the streets

00:47:10and they always

00:47:10said they were

00:47:11going to get me

00:47:11so they eventually

00:47:13got me

00:47:13they stitched me

00:47:15up at a hundred

00:47:15pound worth of heroin

00:47:16and I got eight

00:47:18years for that

00:47:18which is unheard of

00:47:19really

00:47:20I was driving along

00:47:21in the car one day

00:47:21I gave my ex-girlfriend

00:47:22a lift

00:47:23and she had a kill

00:47:25with me

00:47:25she was an addict

00:47:26though he wasn't

00:47:26they pulled us in

00:47:28they found a hundred

00:47:29euro worth of heroin

00:47:29in her bag

00:47:30and told her

00:47:32she wrote a statement

00:47:32saying it was mine

00:47:33they'd let her off

00:47:34and get me years

00:47:35so they got me years

00:47:36in prison

00:47:36I was angry

00:47:37I was angry

00:47:38for a lot of years

00:47:40in prison

00:47:40then I started to

00:47:41forget about all of that

00:47:43and let it go

00:47:43like you know

00:47:44and just look

00:47:45if I'd have got

00:47:45caught for the stuff

00:47:46I did do

00:47:47I would have gotten

00:47:47an awful lot more

00:47:48in prison

00:47:48so you know

00:47:50take life as it comes

00:47:51you know

00:47:52take it with a pinch

00:47:53of salt

00:47:54you learn from

00:47:55your mistakes

00:47:55too you know

00:47:56I was sleeping

00:47:57with guns

00:47:57under my pillow

00:47:58every night

00:47:58I was partying

00:47:59out to bits

00:47:59living in fear

00:48:00and then one night

00:48:02I woke up at 4 o'clock

00:48:03in the morning

00:48:03my finger on the trigger

00:48:04I needed to pull the trigger

00:48:04on my sleep

00:48:05my gun was loaded

00:48:06safety wasn't on

00:48:07and at that point

00:48:08I started to think

00:48:09this is crazy

00:48:10I'm next

00:48:11I know I'm next

00:48:11I'm going

00:48:12so you know

00:48:13something has to give

00:48:14my life

00:48:14either I'm going in the hole

00:48:15or I'm going to prison

00:48:16for life

00:48:16it was one of the other

00:48:17suddenly my eyes

00:48:18opened for the first time

00:48:19it was like

00:48:19I could see things

00:48:20I'd never seen

00:48:21obviously my thinking

00:48:22started to change

00:48:23very very slowly

00:48:24and today now

00:48:26I just help people

00:48:27who are on the streets

00:48:27who are in the same

00:48:28situation as myself

00:48:29who are homeless

00:48:31going in and out of prisons

00:48:32in addiction

00:48:34and I showed them

00:48:35that there is a way

00:48:35out of all this

00:48:36that there is light

00:48:37at the end of the tunnel

00:48:37you know

00:48:38as I said

00:48:39when you go

00:48:39when you come out

00:48:41of that lifestyle

00:48:41and come into this

00:48:42normal everyday living

00:48:44people from your past

00:48:46will read you like a book

00:48:47and they want to see

00:48:48if you really are

00:48:48the person that you say

00:48:49you are now

00:48:50you know

00:48:51I'm clean seven years

00:48:53away from all that stuff

00:48:53seven years

00:48:54so everybody knows

00:48:55I'm legit

00:48:57and I'm honest

00:48:57and I am who I say

00:48:58I am now

00:48:59which is a normal

00:49:00everyday citizen

00:49:01you know

00:49:02just living a normal

00:49:03lifestyle

00:49:04and trying to reach out

00:49:05to people who are broken

00:49:07they'll make a difference

00:49:07in their lives

00:49:08and I'll do that

00:49:09to the day

00:49:10I'll die in all

00:49:10well I love doing

00:49:11what I do

00:49:11fellow Dubliner

00:49:14Wayne Hart

00:49:16was also a notorious

00:49:17heroin dealer

00:49:18responsible for destroying

00:49:19the lives of many

00:49:20now reformed

00:49:22he looks back on his life

00:49:23with regret and relief

00:49:25regret for the misery

00:49:27he caused

00:49:27relief

00:49:29that he somehow managed

00:49:30to survive

00:49:31I would have grown up

00:49:33in Dublin

00:49:34out around Cue

00:49:35like Cabarrick area

00:49:36erm

00:49:37it was always a bit

00:49:40bleeding wild

00:49:41when I was young

00:49:41it kind of started simple

00:49:43you know

00:49:43you're born into cornfields

00:49:44you know what I mean

00:49:45there used to be a

00:49:46there used to be a farmer

00:49:48over there

00:49:48they used to answer

00:49:49to come over

00:49:49and burn the fields

00:49:50he used to get paid for it

00:49:51to set fire to him

00:49:52to set fire to the fields

00:49:53like you know

00:49:54and er

00:49:55I kind of went down

00:49:56and started kind of

00:49:57burning out sheds

00:49:58and cars

00:49:59and you name it

00:50:00I was budding her out

00:50:01you know

00:50:01erm

00:50:02and I just kind of got

00:50:06addicted to that

00:50:08kind of madness

00:50:09and that

00:50:09you know

00:50:10attention

00:50:11I loved it

00:50:12my kind of socialisation

00:50:14as a kid

00:50:14in the family

00:50:15and I was a bit obscure

00:50:16because my

00:50:17my kind of childhood

00:50:18heroes went from

00:50:19Martin Cal

00:50:20the general

00:50:21you know what I mean

00:50:22to Bobby Sands

00:50:23you know what I mean

00:50:24Republicans

00:50:24because my family

00:50:25would be very

00:50:26very mixed

00:50:27you know

00:50:28erm

00:50:28and then somewhere

00:50:30in the middle

00:50:31it was all

00:50:31my morals

00:50:32and ethics

00:50:32and values

00:50:33and you know

00:50:33I just kind of

00:50:34pulled apart

00:50:34we kind of started

00:50:35with

00:50:36the armed robberies

00:50:37and then the drugs

00:50:38you know what I mean

00:50:39erm

00:50:39we didn't kind of

00:50:41do the whole

00:50:41robbing pushbikes

00:50:42and sheds

00:50:43and horses

00:50:44and motorbikes

00:50:44and cars

00:50:45and I was never

00:50:46really into that

00:50:47you know what I mean

00:50:47I was in a robbed car

00:50:48it was

00:50:48it was for a

00:50:49I mean

00:50:50to an end

00:50:51like you know what I mean

00:50:51erm

00:50:52Was it during the robberies

00:50:56was that when your pal

00:50:57got killed

00:50:57or?

00:50:59Yeah

00:50:59that

00:51:00the gun

00:51:05was after being

00:51:07getting picked up

00:51:08there was no robbery

00:51:11done that day

00:51:13or no robbery

00:51:13getting done that day

00:51:14You just went to

00:51:15pick the gun up?

00:51:15We went up

00:51:16we went to

00:51:17pick the guns up

00:51:17yeah

00:51:18and erm

00:51:19the gun was loaded

00:51:21the gun went out

00:51:23in the van

00:51:23and erm

00:51:25he died

00:51:26but now he died

00:51:27and erm

00:51:29we ended up getting

00:51:29jailed for that

00:51:31Er

00:51:32how old was he?

00:51:34Er

00:51:35he was 32

00:51:36I mean

00:51:36older than me

00:51:37at the time

00:51:38he was about 10-11 years older than me

00:51:40at the time

00:51:41where did it

00:51:41it was in what sort of gun was it?

00:51:43it was a shotgun

00:51:44it was a sign off

00:51:45and er

00:51:47when it came through here

00:51:49blew out this way

00:51:50right through him

00:51:51yeah

00:51:53he died instantly

00:51:54yeah

00:51:55yeah

00:51:55straight away

00:51:56what did you do there

00:51:57when you got

00:51:58a dead man in the van

00:51:59he went driving was he?

00:52:01no

00:52:02no

00:52:02there was another chap driving

00:52:05and er

00:52:06he's away

00:52:08he's away ever since

00:52:09you know what I mean

00:52:11he's never

00:52:11he's gone

00:52:13you know

00:52:14erm

00:52:14I went as well

00:52:16and erm

00:52:17I was getting locked up

00:52:19in bleeding England

00:52:20when I was away

00:52:20so I'm from Walton then

00:52:22and I got out

00:52:23so the police were looking for me

00:52:24so I decided to come back

00:52:26you know what I mean

00:52:27erm

00:52:27I had no choice

00:52:28I was escorted

00:52:29you know what I mean

00:52:30to the airport

00:52:31and they were waiting on me

00:52:32you know what I mean

00:52:33so er

00:52:33I came back here

00:52:35and I ended up getting sentenced over here then

00:52:37for that

00:52:37you know

00:52:39erm

00:52:39we ended up in here

00:52:42Mount Joy

00:52:42but erm

00:52:44that was a breeding ground for me

00:52:46because we met

00:52:47a lot of people

00:52:49you know what I mean

00:52:50a lot of people that

00:52:51have since

00:52:52either been shot dead

00:52:55or have rose to the top

00:52:56and been shot dead

00:52:57or they're out of the country

00:52:58you know

00:53:00erm

00:53:00a lot of my friends

00:53:02have been worked

00:53:03over the years

00:53:04Jail

00:53:05Jail kind of

00:53:06saved me life

00:53:07somewhat

00:53:08you know

00:53:09it really did

00:53:09I know that's fucking

00:53:11probably strange to hear

00:53:13but it did

00:53:14you know what I mean

00:53:15erm

00:53:16and then because of all the shit I kind of grew up

00:53:18and the stuff that I'd done

00:53:20you know

00:53:22I would have still been selling drugs

00:53:24while I was in prison

00:53:25you know what I mean

00:53:26and a lot of drugs would have been getting sold

00:53:27in prison for me

00:53:28and er

00:53:30I remember er

00:53:33a lot of stuff was caught in the prison

00:53:34and

00:53:35the lads were all moved out

00:53:36and

00:53:37there was nothing to say it was me

00:53:39but I got moved out for it as well

00:53:41you know

00:53:42erm

00:53:43but I kind of got to a point then

00:53:45when I started

00:53:46smoking

00:53:47heroin myself

00:53:48in the prison

00:53:49in the prison

00:53:50yeah

00:53:51yeah

00:53:52and er

00:53:53it was just a kind of way of coping

00:53:54a way of dealing

00:53:55you know what I mean

00:53:56because especially you know

00:53:57back then

00:53:58it's the same now

00:53:59like you know

00:54:00you go in

00:54:01and you have a name going in

00:54:02and then you're never shooting

00:54:03regardless of whether it was an accident or not

00:54:06the dogs on the street don't hear it was an accident

00:54:08I want to know it's an accident

00:54:09you know what I mean

00:54:10whatever crew is around you

00:54:11you know what I mean

00:54:12I'm putting you up on the pedestal

00:54:13and

00:54:14me name would have got used for so many different things

00:54:17and threatening people

00:54:18and this and that

00:54:19and then I had to live up to it inside

00:54:21you know

00:54:22erm

00:54:23so then we done all sorts inside

00:54:24you know what I mean

00:54:25what were you charged with for the guy who died

00:54:27and how much did you get?

00:54:28I ended up getting er

00:54:32it was ten years ago

00:54:33I got

00:54:34but there was

00:54:35I think it was five

00:54:37for the unlawful killing

00:54:38or five for the firing

00:54:40that's

00:54:41that's what I got in the end

00:54:42and er

00:54:43how old were you then?

00:54:46that one

00:54:47I think I was

00:54:48twenty

00:54:49twenty-twenty-one

00:54:50twenty or twenty-one

00:54:51yeah

00:54:52oh

00:54:53erm

00:54:54and then I kind of just went

00:54:55fucking haywire to prison

00:54:56you know what I mean

00:54:57I made a lot of connections then in prison

00:54:59you know

00:55:00erm

00:55:03yeah

00:55:04I made a lot of connections in prison

00:55:07I would have got out then

00:55:08and I kind of

00:55:09I was like

00:55:10you know what

00:55:11I'd been dabbling with selling heroin

00:55:13I had people selling heroin for me

00:55:15you know what I mean

00:55:16the late eighties

00:55:17early nineties

00:55:18and

00:55:19there was serious profit to be made off

00:55:21over here

00:55:22you know

00:55:23erm

00:55:24probably cost me about sixteen hundred

00:55:25to get it

00:55:26to get it

00:55:27that was getting it back from England and all

00:55:28at the time

00:55:29and er

00:55:30I was dealing with a lot of talks over there

00:55:32they all ended up getting

00:55:33years

00:55:34do you know what I mean

00:55:35there was three of them

00:55:36three family members

00:55:37they all got twenty odds

00:55:40twenty-something years each they got

00:55:42but I was dealing with them over there

00:55:43you know

00:55:44and then

00:55:45when I got back out

00:55:46I kind of made contact again

00:55:47and

00:55:48it was getting a lot cheaper

00:55:50and er

00:55:51making large profits on it

00:55:53you know

00:55:54but

00:55:55cause eventually

00:55:56I thought it was controlling the drug

00:55:57the drug fucking

00:55:58was controlling me

00:55:59and then all just thought

00:56:01what came of it

00:56:02you know what I mean

00:56:03stepping over people

00:56:04to own things

00:56:05and then

00:56:06bringing in crack

00:56:07you know what I mean

00:56:08to sell

00:56:09you know erm

00:56:10cause that was the new drug

00:56:11it was the new thing

00:56:12you know

00:56:13and doing all that

00:56:14and going out and doing robberies

00:56:15to fund it

00:56:16and

00:56:17you know

00:56:18I was never bleeding happy

00:56:19I was always driven

00:56:20I got something

00:56:21I wanted more

00:56:22you know what I mean

00:56:23erm

00:56:24I had the best looking board

00:56:25I wanted a Joe board

00:56:26you know

00:56:27I had a good car

00:56:28I wanted a Joe car

00:56:29I had a good house

00:56:30I wanted a Joe house

00:56:31I was never happy

00:56:32I was never content

00:56:33I always wanted

00:56:34wanted wanted

00:56:35I was always driven

00:56:36you know

00:56:37I didn't care what I done

00:56:38who I done

00:56:39who I stepped over

00:56:40my clothes

00:56:41family, friends

00:56:42my kids

00:56:43you know

00:56:44stuff that I kind of

00:56:46I came to regret

00:56:48and then the heroin

00:56:49kind of took all that away

00:56:50you know what I mean

00:56:51I was kind of like

00:56:52I was in a different world

00:56:53different fucking zone

00:56:54you know

00:56:55and er

00:56:57it just got to a point in my life

00:56:59where I had to fuck enough

00:57:00you know what I mean

00:57:01I had enough

00:57:02I knew I was either going to kill someone

00:57:04I was going to end up getting a life sentence

00:57:06or I was going to be killed

00:57:07you know

00:57:08a lot of my friends

00:57:09this man in my wedding

00:57:10and all

00:57:11they're all dead

00:57:12they're all whacked

00:57:13you know what I mean

00:57:14erm

00:57:15this was I dealing with

00:57:16isn't it

00:57:17I know

00:57:18it's life or fucking death

00:57:19staying alive

00:57:21avoiding imprisonment

00:57:22and remaining one step ahead of the competition

00:57:25was imperative for Wayne

00:57:27he had to know his rival's movements

00:57:30when the guard who were watching him

00:57:32and know where he could purchase his weapons and wares

00:57:35Wayne also had to know his market

00:57:38and compete with the prices of other dealers

00:57:40on the streets of Dublin

00:57:42you know

00:57:43it was kind of clever

00:57:44growing up

00:57:45I always say

00:57:46an area of money

00:57:47you know what I mean

00:57:48for an inn

00:57:49you know

00:57:50as I always say to someone

00:57:51look for the inn

00:57:52look for the inn

00:57:53around that area

00:57:54you know

00:57:55you had to go into town

00:57:56to buy a hash

00:57:57you know what I mean

00:57:58any kind of drugs

00:57:59so I had to go into Dublin city centre to get them

00:58:02and er

00:58:03we were

00:58:04a big

00:58:05Kewlach

00:58:06it's a big area

00:58:07you know what I mean

00:58:08so there was a lot of youth

00:58:09so there was a lot of demand

00:58:11you know what I mean

00:58:12so we got this bleeding brainwaving

00:58:13I don't know

00:58:14you probably heard a king scum

00:58:16have you?

00:58:17over here

00:58:18erm

00:58:19heroin used to be sold

00:58:20in ten pound packs

00:58:21you know

00:58:22and then

00:58:23he was the only one

00:58:24that had heroin

00:58:25bringing her in with the dones

00:58:26with Chrissy Dunne and all them

00:58:27and er

00:58:28they all got locked up

00:58:29and he pulled up the forty

00:58:30forty

00:58:31forty pound

00:58:32forty punt like

00:58:33at the time

00:58:34a ten pound bag

00:58:35up to forty

00:58:36forty quid

00:58:37so hence he got the name

00:58:39so er

00:58:40what I done was

00:58:42again

00:58:43I see the market

00:58:44and I put them from forty pound

00:58:46down to ten pound

00:58:47smaller bags

00:58:49you know what I mean

00:58:50the quantity was better

00:58:51so I'd be giving batches to people

00:58:52sixteen

00:58:53and most people were getting

00:58:54two for selling sixteen

00:58:55we used to give three or four

00:58:56for selling sixteen

00:58:58so the batches were

00:58:59flying out quicker

00:59:00they were smaller

00:59:01but the stock was stronger

00:59:02you know what I mean

00:59:03but people were

00:59:04if I had been giving out

00:59:05normal sized bags

00:59:06there would have been

00:59:07a lot more debts

00:59:08how few was the heroin

00:59:09you were bringing in?

00:59:10one was 52%

00:59:11the second one was 57%

00:59:12which is massive

00:59:14because even now today

00:59:15you know what I mean

00:59:16people are probably getting

00:59:17twenty

00:59:18twenty-five percent

00:59:19yeah I remember a guy

00:59:20had stopped me one day

00:59:21and he was saying

00:59:22hi do you wanna bleed and cut your heroin?

00:59:23it's killing people

00:59:24there's people fucking dropping

00:59:25left, right and centre

00:59:26and I was like

00:59:27fuck all

00:59:28I don't know

00:59:29sell drugs

00:59:30the garden were not the only people

00:59:31keeping a watchful eye

00:59:32on Wayne's activities

00:59:34one evening

00:59:35men posing as IRA volunteers

00:59:38raided his home

00:59:39they kicked the door in

00:59:40yeah you know what I mean

00:59:41and they were looking for me

00:59:42and put the lads in the ground

00:59:43with guns

00:59:44and the lads were saying

00:59:45no he's not here

00:59:46he's not here

00:59:47you know what I mean

00:59:48and then I asked the lads

00:59:49said they got clubs in them

00:59:50he said no

00:59:51he said they locked

00:59:52her in the bathroom

00:59:53and they brought Jews

00:59:54into a separate room

00:59:55so they were at the handling

00:59:56doors all over the fucking place

00:59:57so they were either

00:59:58very fucking stupid

00:59:59they weren't well trained

01:00:00you know

01:00:01erm

01:00:02so as I said

01:00:03I had connections

01:00:04we're in two hours

01:00:05so I found out who they were

01:00:06you know what I mean

01:00:07they were more like

01:00:08activists

01:00:09people

01:00:10like to say

01:00:11they're part of something

01:00:12you know

01:00:13when a lot of them aren't

01:00:14sometimes

01:00:15they're just

01:00:16fucking paper sellers

01:00:18having them

01:00:19armchair IRA men

01:00:20armchair IRA men or not

01:00:22Wayne knew that gunmen

01:00:24or the police

01:00:25could return to his home

01:00:26at any time

01:00:27but he failed to heed the warning signs

01:00:30and was eventually arrested

01:00:32the forests were always after me

01:00:34you know

01:00:35erm

01:00:36I've had them dressing up as calm men

01:00:38and everything

01:00:39knocking on doors of houses

01:00:40where I lived

01:00:41and you know trying to catch

01:00:42with stuff

01:00:43and like that as I said

01:00:44I was never actually caught with stuff

01:00:45they found

01:00:46they said

01:00:47this was a good one

01:00:48they said they found

01:00:49a quarter of the bleeding heroin

01:00:51in abode's nest

01:00:53in the roof of the house

01:00:54or something

01:00:55I don't know what they were saying

01:00:56you know what I mean

01:00:57erm

01:00:58the houses had been searched

01:00:59three times

01:01:00they found nothing

01:01:01and then they went outside

01:01:02searched her again

01:01:03and all of a sudden

01:01:04they found this bleeding

01:01:05ate a girl

01:01:07in a fucking

01:01:08abode's nest or something

01:01:09you know what I mean

01:01:10I'd say they were at the

01:01:11getting her off someone

01:01:12that had got her off me

01:01:14or whatever

01:01:15you know what I mean

01:01:16because I would have been

01:01:17the only one around

01:01:18with that kind of strength

01:01:19you know what I mean

01:01:20that's what kind of

01:01:21sealed me fight then

01:01:22but here I look

01:01:23inside my fucking life

01:01:25Life in the Irish underworld

01:01:27has little value

01:01:28Friends, relatives, fathers and sons

01:01:31have killed or maimed each other

01:01:33in their quest for control

01:01:35Gone are the days when

01:01:37testosterone filled young men

01:01:39fought with their fists

01:01:40to settle disputes

01:01:42Anthony Kelly

01:01:43and his late brother Michael

01:01:45are described by the media

01:01:47as the toughest street fighters

01:01:49the city of Limerick

01:01:50has ever produced

01:01:52In the 1960s, 70s and 80s

01:01:55they would fight any man

01:01:56with their fists

01:01:58but when drugs arrived in Limerick

01:02:00so too did guns

01:02:02and the Kellys were catapulted

01:02:04into a world of murder

01:02:05and mayhem

01:02:06that even they struggled

01:02:08to comprehend

01:02:09When I was growing up

01:02:11maybe 1972, 73

01:02:13and there was only petty things

01:02:15well there was very little

01:02:17for anyone to do

01:02:18there was no amenities

01:02:19there was no

01:02:20nothing for anyone

01:02:22and today it's still the same

01:02:24you're hanging around

01:02:25doing nothing like

01:02:26and a lot of people

01:02:27in those days

01:02:28you wouldn't have to go

01:02:29to school either

01:02:30a lot of people

01:02:31wouldn't be at school

01:02:32the youth like

01:02:33The devil finds work

01:02:34for idle hands they say

01:02:36as the Kellys matured

01:02:38they became involved

01:02:39in robberies

01:02:40and more serious crime

01:02:42as they sought

01:02:43to cement their reputation

01:02:45rival gangs opposed them

01:02:47a feud developed

01:02:48that resulted

01:02:49in an orgy of violence

01:02:51that claimed several lives

01:02:53well what happened is

01:02:55people

01:02:56people went to my brother

01:02:57trying to get 20 pence

01:02:58in a fight

01:02:59off him

01:03:00and he hadn't got it

01:03:01on him at the time

01:03:02and they

01:03:05caught him by the throat

01:03:06and kind of threatened him

01:03:08and then another brother

01:03:10of mine came along

01:03:11and gave one of them

01:03:12a box

01:03:13Is this Mick?

01:03:14Yeah, he came along

01:03:15and gave one of them

01:03:16a box

01:03:17and that's how

01:03:18it started

01:03:19so it's a minor thing

01:03:21a minor thing soon escalated

01:03:23into Michael being

01:03:24repeatedly stabbed

01:03:25and savagely beaten

01:03:27in a bar

01:03:28Michael was pronounced

01:03:29dead by a policeman

01:03:30at the scene

01:03:31but miraculously

01:03:32he survived

01:03:33My brother was in there

01:03:35Mike

01:03:36and er

01:03:37and when he went outside

01:03:39people attacked him outside

01:03:41and stuck glasses in him

01:03:43and my mother came out of there

01:03:46and she thought he was dead

01:03:48in the ground

01:03:49but he pulled through anyway

01:03:52but he was in a bad way

01:03:53that

01:03:54he was able to get attacked

01:03:56by a few people

01:03:57Michael believed

01:03:59that a 24 year old hard man

01:04:01named Thomas Coleman

01:04:03had glassed him in the face

01:04:04and so he went to his home

01:04:06to confront him

01:04:07when Coleman answered the door

01:04:09he was stabbed to death

01:04:10Michael was charged with the murder

01:04:12and remanded in custody

01:04:14to await trial

01:04:15two months later

01:04:17five members of the McCarthy family

01:04:19attacked Anthony Kelly

01:04:21as he sat in a bar

01:04:22socialising with a female friend

01:04:24in the bloody battle that ensued

01:04:26Tommy and Sammy McCarthy

01:04:28were stabbed to death

01:04:30I was just sitting down there

01:04:32I was only there on my own

01:04:33in the company of women

01:04:35like you know

01:04:36and they came in and attacked me

01:04:38and I received injuries out of it

01:04:40there weren't life threatening injuries

01:04:42but I did receive injuries

01:04:44and two of them got killed

01:04:46and the people that came in

01:04:48the pub was packed

01:04:49and there was just mayhem in the pub

01:04:51they got stabbed to death

01:04:52and I was accused

01:04:54I was accused of doing it

01:04:55and I went through a trial

01:04:56and I was found not guilty at the trial

01:04:59like his brother Anthony

01:05:01Michael Kelly was also found

01:05:03not guilty of murder

01:05:05back on the streets

01:05:06and short of money

01:05:07Michael had been approached

01:05:08by his old friend Eddie Ryan

01:05:10an infamous thug

01:05:11who pioneered large-scale drug dealing

01:05:14on the streets of Limerick

01:05:15he asked Michael

01:05:16if he wanted to get involved

01:05:17in the lucrative drugs trade

01:05:19Michael shocked Ryan

01:05:20and many others

01:05:21by declining the offer

01:05:23and saying that he wanted

01:05:24to get involved in politics

01:05:26he felt strongly about poverty

01:05:28and social injustice

01:05:30and wanted to help his community

01:05:32rather than decimate it with drugs

01:05:34well he went

01:05:36maybe 20 years ago

01:05:38he went into politics

01:05:40now he had a criminal record as well

01:05:42but he went into politics

01:05:45and in the election

01:05:47he topped the poll

01:05:48and became an alderman

01:05:50in Ward 3

01:05:51and a lot of people

01:05:52in authority

01:05:53were very upset

01:05:54that he got elected

01:05:55but my brother was

01:05:56meant to be

01:05:57for the ordinary people

01:05:58on the street

01:05:59and he'd argue up their prines

01:06:03and he'd support them

01:06:05in just causes

01:06:07and everything

01:06:08and so what happened to Mick?

01:06:10well he

01:06:13maybe 13 years ago

01:06:15someone came into the house

01:06:16and shot him

01:06:17he was in bed

01:06:18he was in bed

01:06:19I was arrested

01:06:20and my two brothers

01:06:21was arrested

01:06:23and my mother

01:06:24and what it was

01:06:27it was

01:06:28the wardrobe says

01:06:31the guards

01:06:32putting it around

01:06:33or they were involved

01:06:35or we were involved

01:06:36to make the family

01:06:37even look bad

01:06:38death had become

01:06:39an unwanted

01:06:40close companion

01:06:41of the Kelly family

01:06:42Anthony's brother

01:06:44Damien

01:06:45was found dead

01:06:46in a prison cell

01:06:47in what appeared to be

01:06:48yet another murder

01:06:50and it went back to

01:06:53this with the guards

01:06:54goes back even further

01:06:56to 1994

01:06:57when my brother

01:06:58he was only 16 years of age

01:07:00he was murdered

01:07:01Damien

01:07:02Damien

01:07:03and he got murdered

01:07:04in 1994

01:07:05and people admitted

01:07:07what they had done

01:07:08to him

01:07:09and they were never prosecuted

01:07:10he was hung

01:07:11in Spike Island

01:07:12in Cork

01:07:14and there was never

01:07:16any prosecution

01:07:17from the time

01:07:18he got murdered

01:07:19he was released

01:07:20it was two weeks

01:07:21he was out in tow

01:07:22he was only done

01:07:23three months

01:07:24and the filing

01:07:26and what happened

01:07:27to Damien

01:07:28is it's grossing

01:07:30the tidiest hens

01:07:31the tidiest hens

01:07:33the tidiest hens

01:07:34and in a cell

01:07:36three other people

01:07:37and they hung him

01:07:38behind his back

01:07:40hands behind his back

01:07:41so he couldn't have

01:07:42hung himself could he

01:07:43no

01:07:44and that's

01:07:45they actually made

01:07:46statements admitting it

01:07:47but they said

01:07:48that they tried

01:07:49to help him commit suicide

01:07:51following the deaths

01:07:53of Damien and Michael

01:07:54there was an attempt

01:07:55to murder Anthony

01:07:56outside his home

01:07:57it wasn't the first attempt

01:07:59on his life

01:08:00someone trying to break

01:08:01through my mother's window

01:08:03and the guards were there

01:08:05and the guards

01:08:07that attended the scene

01:08:08I told them

01:08:09I said

01:08:10no I said

01:08:11when I go back up to my house

01:08:12I said

01:08:13there'll be someone up there

01:08:14I said

01:08:15they were armed

01:08:17and they'd done nothing about it

01:08:19like

01:08:20and I did tell the guards

01:08:21but when I went back up

01:08:23there was a gunman there

01:08:24with a belly clavier waiting

01:08:26and where did you get shot?

01:08:28I got here

01:08:29and here

01:08:30and

01:08:31I got another one

01:08:33to couple here

01:08:34and my

01:08:35my leg is

01:08:36so the police just went straight

01:08:38through me

01:08:39just sprayed you?

01:08:40no

01:08:41it was straight through me

01:08:42from a 9mm angle

01:08:44it's been straight through

01:08:47so how many times have you been

01:08:49targeted

01:08:50people tried to kill you?

01:08:52well

01:08:53maybe 10 or 12 times

01:08:55there

01:08:56in January 2011

01:08:58Anthony was linked to the murder

01:09:00of Des Kelly

01:09:01and his partner

01:09:03Breida Waters

01:09:04both were executed in their home

01:09:06with a shotgun at close range

01:09:08like all previous killings

01:09:10that he has been linked to

01:09:11Anthony denies any involvement

01:09:14the way it was supposed to happen

01:09:17and the guards tried to portray it

01:09:19is

01:09:20that two people shot these people

01:09:22in the house over

01:09:23and they passed my house

01:09:25or went into my house

01:09:27which never happened

01:09:28like

01:09:29well what they said

01:09:30there was something to do

01:09:31with a drug deal

01:09:32or something to do with that

01:09:34but I can assure you

01:09:35it was nothing to do with me

01:09:36or my family

01:09:37I'm not

01:09:38I never portrayed myself as

01:09:40that I'm going to sit down

01:09:42and leave someone come in and kill me

01:09:43like

01:09:44I'm not

01:09:45and to this day

01:09:46if someone interferes with me

01:09:47I still do the same thing

01:09:49I'll defend myself

01:09:50and my family

01:09:51and in October 2009

01:09:54that is exactly what Anthony

01:09:56is alleged to have done

01:09:57his daughter's boyfriend

01:09:59was shot in the back

01:10:00with a glock semi-automatic pistol

01:10:02after making threats

01:10:03on the doorstep of Anthony's home

01:10:05I'm in bed actually

01:10:06that burden

01:10:07Yeah

01:10:08and what happened then?

01:10:09and there were shots outside

01:10:10so

01:10:12I stayed in the house

01:10:14three of them came to the door

01:10:16and

01:10:18when they came to the door

01:10:19then there were shots fired outside

01:10:21and one of them was shot in the back?

01:10:23and one of them was shot

01:10:24yeah

01:10:25Michael Lynch's mother

01:10:26told detectives

01:10:27that she followed her sons

01:10:28up to Anthony's house

01:10:29and he had told them

01:10:30if you don't take your sons away

01:10:32I'll shoot them

01:10:33Mrs Lynch added

01:10:34the next thing I can remember

01:10:36is Anthony Kelly

01:10:37pulling the gun

01:10:38from behind his back

01:10:39and pointing it

01:10:40she said that

01:10:41three shots were fired

01:10:42and her son Michael

01:10:43was hit in the back

01:10:44they said that like

01:10:46yeah

01:10:47but that was it

01:10:48the version I said was

01:10:50that they came to the house

01:10:51firing shots

01:10:52and all that

01:10:53and I didn't shoot anyone

01:10:54and

01:10:55I was frinsically

01:10:56I was arrested

01:10:57on the spot

01:10:58when the guards came

01:10:59and I was forensically tested

01:11:01and everything

01:11:02and there was no firearm residue

01:11:03on me

01:11:04there was no firearm residue

01:11:05around my house

01:11:06nothing

01:11:07on my clothing

01:11:08and anything

01:11:09and I was found not guilty

01:11:10there's very decent guards

01:11:11in Limerick

01:11:12who do their job

01:11:14and

01:11:16but

01:11:17there is an element

01:11:18and these guards

01:11:19that's

01:11:20these guards in Limerick

01:11:21who know

01:11:22the ones

01:11:23what they're doing

01:11:24I reckon

01:11:25it's about time

01:11:26that they should come out

01:11:27and expose them

01:11:28and get rid of the bad apples

01:11:29and have a decent guard

01:11:30force

01:11:31in Limerick

01:11:32when bad apples are exposed

01:11:34within any police force

01:11:36they often claim to be guilty

01:11:38of no more than

01:11:39noble cause corruption

01:11:40it is a phrase that has crept

01:11:42into our vocabulary

01:11:43in recent times

01:11:44the Dundon McCarthy families

01:11:46from Limerick

01:11:47have been branded evil

01:11:48public enemy number one

01:11:50and Ireland's most feared

01:11:51gangland murderers

01:11:52whether those claims are true

01:11:55exaggerated or false

01:11:56the question is

01:11:58should these labels deny

01:12:00any person

01:12:01in a civilised society

01:12:03justice

01:12:04on the 9th of April 2009

01:12:07James Dillon walked into the

01:12:09Coyne Castle Amusement Arcade

01:12:11which was formerly on this site

01:12:13and shot dead 35 year old

01:12:15Roy Collins

01:12:17Wayne Dundon

01:12:19who was in prison

01:12:20at the time

01:12:21was convicted of the murder

01:12:23he has always protested

01:12:24his innocence

01:12:25but with a reputation

01:12:26like Wayne Dundon's

01:12:28no one was ever going

01:12:29to believe him

01:12:30I'm Wayne Dundon's father

01:12:33Kenneth Dundon

01:12:35I'm not very happy

01:12:36with the justice

01:12:37my son Wayne has got

01:12:38in court

01:12:39in Ireland

01:12:40by gangland figures

01:12:43conspiring

01:12:44to have my child

01:12:45locked up for life

01:12:46I know he didn't do it

01:12:49I just like to see my kid

01:12:50getting a fair trial

01:12:53that's all I'm asking

01:12:55Wayne is no angel

01:12:56but every person deserves

01:12:58fair justice

01:12:59in 1982

01:13:01Kenneth married Anne McCarthy

01:13:02in London

01:13:03five of their children

01:13:05Wayne

01:13:06John

01:13:07Desi

01:13:08Gerard

01:13:09have all led troubled lives

01:13:11Wayne was deemed

01:13:12so violent

01:13:13by the British authorities

01:13:14that he was deported

01:13:15back to Ireland

01:13:16the other Dundon brothers

01:13:18joined Wayne in Limerick

01:13:19where they quickly

01:13:20aligned themselves

01:13:21with their cousins

01:13:22the McCarthys

01:13:23the Keenan

01:13:24Caloppy families

01:13:25controlled the

01:13:26drugs trade

01:13:27in the city

01:13:28but their enforcer

01:13:29Eddie Ryan

01:13:30was shot dead

01:13:31by those loyal

01:13:32to the newcomers

01:13:33in the Moose Bar

01:13:34this sparked

01:13:35an all-out war

01:13:36that resulted

01:13:37in more than

01:13:38ten people

01:13:39being murdered

01:13:40Wayne Dundon

01:13:42was the head

01:13:43of the McCarthy

01:13:44Dundon faction

01:13:45and has been described

01:13:46by the media

01:13:47as a killing machine

01:13:49he's currently serving

01:13:50life for a murder

01:13:51he says he did not commit

01:13:53has justice finally caught up

01:13:55with Wayne Dundon

01:13:56or is this a case

01:13:57of noble cause

01:13:58corruption

01:13:59I went to visit

01:14:00Wayne in

01:14:01Mountjoy prison

01:14:02to find out

01:14:03and I left troubled

01:14:04very troubled

01:14:06I'm taking part

01:14:07in this documentary

01:14:08for the hope

01:14:09that the truth

01:14:10will be heard

01:14:11for what happened

01:14:12to me in the special

01:14:13criminal courts

01:14:14for all I ask

01:14:15is to be judged

01:14:16by the facts

01:14:17of the case

01:14:18not the misinterpretation

01:14:19and the lies

01:14:20portrayed in the media

01:14:21Irish media

01:14:22you're described

01:14:24as evil

01:14:25you're described

01:14:27as public enemy

01:14:28number one

01:14:29you're described

01:14:30as

01:14:31Ireland's most dangerous

01:14:32criminal

01:14:33you know

01:14:34what do you say to that

01:14:35Wayne?

01:14:36it's just the media

01:14:38you've no defence

01:14:39in this country

01:14:40when someone wants

01:14:41to write something

01:14:42on the paper

01:14:43that's my biggest problem

01:14:44but I've never been

01:14:45given a fair shot

01:14:46of a fair hearing

01:14:48from the media

01:14:49I've been approached

01:14:50up ten times

01:14:51to give my side

01:14:52of the story

01:14:53by many different

01:14:54media outlets

01:14:55and reporters

01:14:56and documentary makers

01:14:57or a cousin of mine

01:14:58who knew about you

01:15:00advised me to talk to you

01:15:01and he said

01:15:02you're willing to

01:15:03come forward

01:15:04and tell the truth

01:15:05as you see

01:15:06it's not make up

01:15:07a story

01:15:08but you're not

01:15:09are you saying

01:15:10you're an angel

01:15:11and you've never

01:15:12done nothing wrong?

01:15:13well no

01:15:14I've pissed off the police

01:15:15many times

01:15:16and

01:15:17been involved

01:15:18in like

01:15:19assaults

01:15:20on the guards

01:15:21things like this

01:15:22and

01:15:23driving offences

01:15:24but I'm not

01:15:25I'm not

01:15:26what they put me down

01:15:27to be

01:15:28I'm not this mad killer

01:15:29that put them

01:15:30to be

01:15:31and when this murder

01:15:32happened

01:15:33I was in prison

01:15:34you've been denied justice

01:15:35because

01:15:36because of

01:15:37the person they say you are

01:15:39totally

01:15:40if my name wasn't

01:15:41Wayne Dundon

01:15:42I wouldn't be in prison

01:15:43I've been told that for a fact

01:15:45by every barrister and solicitor

01:15:46everybody

01:15:47in December 2004

01:15:49Wayne Dundon

01:15:51and his 14 year old sister Annabelle

01:15:53entered Branigan's bar in Limerick

01:15:55Ryan Lee the barman

01:15:57refused to serve them

01:15:58because of Annabelle's age

01:16:00threats to kill were made

01:16:02and

01:16:03thirty minutes later

01:16:04a man wearing a crash helmet

01:16:05entered the bar

01:16:06and

01:16:07shot Lee

01:16:08once in the groin

01:16:09and once in the leg

01:16:10the pub was later burnt to the ground

01:16:12six months later

01:16:14Ryan Lee

01:16:15and his employer

01:16:16Steve Collins

01:16:17gave evidence against Wayne Dundon

01:16:19and he was sentenced to seven years imprisonment

01:16:21the gunman was never traced

01:16:23four years later

01:16:24in an alleged revenge attack

01:16:25Steve Collins' son Roy

01:16:26was gunned down in the Coyne Castle amusement arcade

01:16:30within hours

01:16:31and without a shred of evidence

01:16:32the media had linked Wayne Dundon

01:16:34to the murder

01:16:35the following year

01:16:36April Collins

01:16:37who was the partner of

01:16:38Gerald Dundon

01:16:39and the mother of his three children

01:16:40was arrested for threatening a witness

01:16:42in a separate criminal case

01:16:43this led to a murder

01:16:44who was the partner of

01:16:45Gerald Dundon

01:16:46and the mother of his three children

01:16:47was arrested for threatening a witness

01:16:49in a separate criminal case

01:16:51this led to an illicit affair she was having

01:16:54with Thomas O'Neill

01:16:56the infamous Craitlow Wood rapist

01:16:58been revealed in the press

01:17:00the news caused huge rows

01:17:02between herself

01:17:03Gerard

01:17:04and other members of the Dundon family

01:17:06fearing the wrath of the Dundons

01:17:08and imprisonment for threatening the witness

01:17:10April contacted the guards

01:17:12and claimed that Wayne Dundon

01:17:14had ordered the murder of Roy Collins

01:17:16from his cell in Wheatfield prison

01:17:18April and her sister Lisa

01:17:20also alleged that John Dundon

01:17:23had ordered the murder of a rival villain

01:17:25but Shane Geegan

01:17:27an innocent man

01:17:28had been gunned down

01:17:29in a case of mistaken identity

01:17:31April Collins' relationship

01:17:33had broken down with Gerard

01:17:34and she was trying to

01:17:36pull away from the family

01:17:37as such

01:17:38kind of gave them an opening

01:17:40also you know

01:17:41they all jumped on board here

01:17:43they were all picking individual cases

01:17:45of which they would make the statements on

01:17:47and implicate Wayne and his brothers

01:17:50in different crimes

01:17:52so it all kind of stemmed from there

01:17:54from the breakdown of the relationship

01:17:58between April and Gerard

01:18:01and she basically just wanted them all

01:18:04off the scene you know

01:18:06from there on in

01:18:07it got very nasty from there on in

01:18:09at the time April decided to make a statement

01:18:12against the Dundons

01:18:14her brother Gareth

01:18:15was serving a seven and a half year prison sentence

01:18:17for extortion

01:18:19her sister Lisa was in a relationship with Gareth's co-accused

01:18:23Christopher McCarthy

01:18:25his brother Anthony Noddy McCarthy

01:18:28was also in prison

01:18:29serving a life sentence for a gangland murder

01:18:32all four individuals gave evidence against the Dundons in support of April

01:18:38but we have obtained evidence that indicates

01:18:41that they may have done so through fear or favour

01:18:45Noddy is a first cousin of mine

01:18:47his father and my father are brothers

01:18:49sadly his father since passed

01:18:52so the relevance is he was the one that made the statement

01:18:56to the guards saying that Wayne Dundon

01:18:59he overheard Wayne Dundon

01:19:01ordering the murder of Roy Collins

01:19:04which everybody knows

01:19:05it's never happened

01:19:07went to visit my son Larry Junior

01:19:09with me was my brother James

01:19:11and my nephew JJ

01:19:13when we went there to visit on a family visit

01:19:16we met Deirdre Donovan

01:19:18which is not his mother

01:19:19I asked him during the visit

01:19:21why did you set Wayne up for that murder

01:19:24and he went on to say that he had no choice

01:19:27that if he didn't

01:19:28he didn't make statements

01:19:29the fact that he overheard

01:19:31overheard Wayne

01:19:32saying that he ordered that murder

01:19:34that they were going to implicate him

01:19:36in the murder of Sean Poland

01:19:37which took place in the early 2000s

01:19:39and also implicate his brother Christopher

01:19:43in the murder of Shane Gagin

01:19:45which was the rugby player

01:19:46so his back was against the wall

01:19:48he didn't see he had a way out

01:19:50but unbelievable

01:19:52he told me

01:19:53that he didn't even think

01:19:54that Wayne would get charged with it

01:19:55he goes

01:19:56I didn't think the coppers would take me serious

01:19:57or the guards would take me serious

01:19:58he goes

01:19:59I didn't even think

01:20:00no let Owen get convicted

01:20:01he said

01:20:02I didn't even think he'd get charged with it

01:20:03I said well he's charged with it

01:20:04because he says

01:20:05he's doing life in jail

01:20:07Many people will think

01:20:09Larry McCarthy is a criminal

01:20:11he would say that

01:20:12but in recordings

01:20:13which have been heard publicly

01:20:15for the very first time

01:20:16Anthony Noddy McCarthy

01:20:18admits to his own mother

01:20:20that he and his brother

01:20:21were indeed being threatened

01:20:22to give evidence

01:20:23What?

01:20:24Because he was on the lizard

01:20:25the day

01:20:26and when he came out to visit

01:20:27the girl of Carl

01:20:28and the girl said

01:20:29the girls were up to see

01:20:30the girl of Jester

01:20:31the girl says

01:20:32he's walking for the girls

01:20:33and all

01:20:34and if Crystal and I stop

01:20:35giving them money

01:20:36I was going to make up

01:20:37lots of more Crystal

01:20:38to the girls

01:20:39What?

01:20:40Yeah

01:20:41He's trying to extend Crystal

01:20:43for money

01:20:44Controversy continues to surround the evidence

01:20:47that convicted Wayne Dundon

01:20:49particularly the evidence

01:20:50of Anthony Noddy McCarthy

01:20:52During the trial

01:20:53the witnesses were presented

01:20:55as individuals

01:20:56who were carrying out

01:20:57their civic duty

01:20:58rather than criminals

01:21:00with a vested interest

01:21:01in the outcome

01:21:02of the proceedings

01:21:03You know

01:21:04in the court

01:21:05it made it look like

01:21:06Noddy had nothing to lose

01:21:08at that time

01:21:09but when the case was over

01:21:12and Wayne was handed down

01:21:14his life sentence

01:21:15Noddy rapidly gained

01:21:18from his evidence

01:21:20during Wayne's trial

01:21:22Wayne Dundon

01:21:23is in no doubt

01:21:24that Noddy McCarthy

01:21:25at least

01:21:26holds the key

01:21:27to his cell door

01:21:28McCarthy claimed

01:21:29that he had heard

01:21:30Wayne Dundon

01:21:31talking on a mobile phone

01:21:32in prison

01:21:33ordering the murder

01:21:34of Roy Collins

01:21:36However

01:21:37it had been three years

01:21:38before he mentioned it

01:21:39to anybody

01:21:40and at that time

01:21:41he had run out of options

01:21:42to have his life sentence

01:21:44overturned

01:21:45or reduced

01:21:46I'm actually the only person

01:21:47in the history of Ireland

01:21:48to ever be convicted

01:21:49on jailhouse

01:21:50informed evidence

01:21:51solely

01:21:52with no cooperation

01:21:54no

01:21:55nothing to back this man up

01:21:56and throughout my trial

01:21:58I asked

01:21:59could the trial

01:22:00did the police

01:22:01try and independently

01:22:02verify

01:22:03his statement

01:22:04he made

01:22:05saying that I walked up to London

01:22:07and he

01:22:08overgave me

01:22:09ordering

01:22:10or telling him

01:22:11that I got someone murdered

01:22:12that day

01:22:13and the guard said

01:22:14in the box

01:22:15no

01:22:16they just took his statement

01:22:17they took him to court

01:22:18and that's it

01:22:19According to Wayne Dundon

01:22:20convicted killer

01:22:21Anthony Noddy McCarthy

01:22:22had tired of prison life

01:22:24and was offering this evidence

01:22:26as a bargaining chip

01:22:27to secure privileges

01:22:28or an early release

01:22:30he was convicted for

01:22:31many feud related incidents

01:22:32of violence

01:22:33he had a six year off

01:22:35of that

01:22:36then he got

01:22:37convicted of

01:22:38a kidnap

01:22:39and a murder

01:22:40and

01:22:41he was in jail

01:22:42maybe

01:22:43at this stage

01:22:44I think

01:22:45maybe 10-12 years

01:22:46and he lost all his appeals

01:22:47and he decided

01:22:49I know what happened

01:22:50he decided to get out of jail

01:22:51and he just went up

01:22:52and said look

01:22:53I see this guy

01:22:54he said this to the other

01:22:55and it looks good for him

01:22:56on the parole court

01:22:57because I'm the bad guy

01:22:58Perverse as it may seem

01:23:00inmates demanding privileges

01:23:02or an early release

01:23:03in exchange for evidence

01:23:04appears to have been the norm

01:23:06amongst this group

01:23:07at the same time

01:23:08Noddy McCarthy

01:23:09was seeking favour

01:23:10his alleged tormentor

01:23:12Gareth Collins

01:23:13was attempting to cement

01:23:14deals with the police

01:23:15in exchange for his evidence

01:23:17The entire case

01:23:19against Wayne Dundon

01:23:21teeters precariously

01:23:22on the word of people

01:23:24with nothing to lose

01:23:25and everything to gain

01:23:26several of these witnesses

01:23:29who gave evidence

01:23:30against him

01:23:31were rewarded

01:23:32by the authorities

01:23:33April Collins

01:23:34received a suspended sentence

01:23:36for a crime

01:23:37that would normally attract

01:23:38a lengthy term

01:23:39of imprisonment

01:23:40Lisa Collins

01:23:41and Christopher McCarthy

01:23:42were given immunity

01:23:43from prosecution

01:23:44concerning involvement

01:23:46in a very serious crime

01:23:48and Noddy McCarthy

01:23:49was granted

01:23:50unescorted days out

01:23:51with his family

01:23:52despite the fact

01:23:53that he was serving

01:23:54life for murder

01:23:56As for Gareth Collins

01:23:58well only Gareth Collins

01:23:59knows the truth

01:24:00about his demands

01:24:04All of the criminals featured

01:24:05have talked about injustice

01:24:07but the most grievous injustices

01:24:09are those imposed

01:24:10upon the innocent victims

01:24:12of their crimes

01:24:1350 miles south east of Limerick

01:24:15is Clonmel

01:24:16the county town of Tipperary

01:24:18where Anne Marie Channon

01:24:19is fighting for a different

01:24:21type of justice

01:24:22her young daughter

01:24:23and brother

01:24:24had their lives

01:24:25cut short by drugs

01:24:26Sean Donoghue

01:24:27Wayne Hart

01:24:28and others

01:24:29who dreamt of being

01:24:30like the gangsters

01:24:31thieves

01:24:32and drug dealers

01:24:33on their housing estates

01:24:34should be educated

01:24:35about the misery

01:24:36and heartache

01:24:37their lifestyle creates

01:24:39she was very loving

01:24:41she was devoted to the kids

01:24:42she tried her best

01:24:43and she was always full of life

01:24:45and she was always on the go

01:24:46doing something different

01:24:47to the best of my knowledge

01:24:49when she admitted it to me

01:24:50she was 21

01:24:51it was the weekend

01:24:52of her 21st birthday

01:24:53she disappeared for three days

01:24:54and we couldn't find her

01:24:55it was the first time

01:24:56she'd ever done anything like that

01:24:57and generally

01:24:59I suppose she got mixed in

01:25:00with the wrong crowd

01:25:01and she kind of fell in with them

01:25:03and she kind of fell into the drug situation

01:25:06and it spiralled

01:25:08you know

01:25:09and

01:25:10it was everywhere

01:25:11like it's not just in villages and towns

01:25:13it's all over the place

01:25:15the dealers

01:25:16they're just destroying families

01:25:19they're taking away lives

01:25:20and

01:25:21every town and village

01:25:22in the whole of Ireland

01:25:23and further afield

01:25:25had been destroyed by these people

01:25:27and

01:25:28where one is taken off the streets

01:25:29there was going to be another one to pick up

01:25:31where they left off

01:25:32she rang me on the Wednesday

01:25:33and asked me for a loan at 20 euros

01:25:35and I straight away said no

01:25:37for the simple reason

01:25:38I knew she was at the drugs

01:25:39and I knew she was dabbling again

01:25:41she could have been saved

01:25:42but

01:25:43she took more pain to her

01:25:44that night

01:25:45and went to sleep

01:25:46on her boyfriend's lap

01:25:47on the city

01:25:48watching a DVD

01:25:49and she never woke up

01:25:50she basically went into a coma

01:25:52and died

01:25:53and he woke up the next morning

01:25:56she was dead in his lap

01:25:57Christopher was only 43

01:26:02myself and himself

01:26:04and my other brother

01:26:05share a birthday in December

01:26:07and we were the three youngest

01:26:08in the family

01:26:09and that

01:26:10and it's difficult

01:26:11it's very hard to deal with

01:26:12you know

01:26:13he didn't have a chance

01:26:14when he came out of prison

01:26:15he came out

01:26:16he came out to nothing

01:26:17he came out he was homeless

01:26:19he was a drug addict

01:26:20trying to better himself

01:26:21and he came out to nothing

01:26:23only to go back to the squat

01:26:25he was living in

01:26:26and like I said

01:26:28within weeks

01:26:29of him coming out

01:26:30he was gone

01:26:31we had to bury him

01:26:33and again that was very hard

01:26:36to face into

01:26:37after only dealing with it

01:26:3918 months previous

01:26:40very very hard

01:26:42I just

01:26:44I wouldn't like to see other families

01:26:45going through what I've gone through

01:26:47now to tell her three kids

01:26:49so she was gone

01:26:50that was probably the hardest part

01:26:51I just want to see them get on

01:26:53and do well

01:26:54and not to go down that road of destruction

01:26:57you know

01:26:58but it's not always easy

01:27:00of course

01:27:01bringing up children

01:27:03never is or never will be easy

01:27:05but our children are the only wealth in this world

01:27:08and need to flourish in a just fair environment

01:27:11that offers equal opportunities

01:27:13regardless of who they are

01:27:15or where they are from

01:27:17somewhere down the line

01:27:18somebody has got to step up

01:27:19and do something about it

01:27:21they've got to do more

01:27:22there's just simply not enough been done

01:27:25it's 60 years since Christy Dunn

01:27:32was physically

01:27:33and mentally abused in an industrial school

01:27:3650 years since Anthony Kelly

01:27:38grew up on an abandoned housing estate in Limerick

01:27:42and 40 years since Sean Donoghue

01:27:44and Wayne Hart concluded

01:27:46that their only hope

01:27:47was to be drug dealing gun-toting gangsters

01:27:50nothing has changed

01:27:52therefore no lessons have been learned

01:27:54Aristotle

01:27:56appears to have been correct

01:27:58poverty and injustice

01:28:00are indeed

01:28:01the parents of crime

01:28:24there's more people

01:28:25we are going to do

01:28:26it's not always easy

01:28:27we don't know

01:28:28have these kinds of things

01:28:29we don't know

01:28:31that it's a matter of

01:28:32we don't know

01:28:33we don't know

01:28:34that anything

01:28:35there are

01:28:36that some people

01:28:37may not feel

01:28:39anything

01:28:40that they can put

01:28:41in our ig autour

01:28:43they will not know

01:28:44we may not have

01:28:45there are

01:28:47that it's a matter of

01:28:48that the the

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