- 8 months ago
Two schoolboys visited a funfair looking for a fifty pence piece that one of them had dropped. While there they met a man who offered them the same amount each if they would perform indecent acts with him. The boys reported the matter to the police and they identified Reginald Barton as the offender.
Andrew Sachs, best known perhaps as Manuel in "Fawlty Towers", appears as the defence counsel. Peter Jeffrey, known for his many TV appearances (The Avengers, Doctor Who) stars as the prosecuting counsel. Raymond Huntley (Upstairs, Downstairs), plays Judge Downes. Frank Mills (Hetty Wainthrop Investigates, and pretty much every other programme!) appears as the defendant.
Andrew Sachs, best known perhaps as Manuel in "Fawlty Towers", appears as the defence counsel. Peter Jeffrey, known for his many TV appearances (The Avengers, Doctor Who) stars as the prosecuting counsel. Raymond Huntley (Upstairs, Downstairs), plays Judge Downes. Frank Mills (Hetty Wainthrop Investigates, and pretty much every other programme!) appears as the defendant.
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TVTranscript
00:00:00The
00:00:20case you're about to see is a fictional one, but the procedure is legally accurate.
00:00:24The characters are played by actors, but the jury is selected from members of the general public.
00:00:28I'm not guilty, sir. And on the second count, you are similarly charged,
00:00:32and the particulars are that on Friday, June 16th at Fulchester, you did similarly...
00:00:36I'm not guilty, sir. Just one moment, please, Mr Barton.
00:00:40The particulars are that on Friday, June 16th at Fulchester,
00:00:44you did incite Geoffrey Neil Gibson, also under the age of 14 years.
00:00:49Don't worry, Geoffrey. Nothing to worry about, love. Everything's going to be all right.
00:00:54All right. Just tell them the truth, son, that's all. The plain, simple truth. Now, there's nothing can beat that.
00:00:58You'll speak up nice and clearly, won't you, love?
00:01:00Yeah, speak up nice and clear, son, that's all, and tell them the plain, simple truth, right?
00:01:04You'll try to speak, well, you know what I mean, nicely, love. All right?
00:01:08Yes, speak nicely and tell them the plain, uncomplicated truth, then you'll be all right, right?
00:01:12Yes, Mum. Yes, Dad.
00:01:14Now, there's nothing to worry about. Not a thing, Dad, all right?
00:01:16Nothing at all. As long as you tell them the plain, simple truth, right?
00:01:20It's all right, Mum. It's all right.
00:01:22It's all right, Mum. It's all right.
00:01:26It's all right, Mum. It's all right.
00:01:28Sit down, Mr Barton, please.
00:01:32Call Geoffrey Neil Gibson, please.
00:01:46Geoffrey Neil Gibson.
00:01:49Hold the book in your right hand and read aloud the words on the card.
00:02:04I promise by Almighty God, that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
00:02:12Would you give your full name and address, please?
00:02:15Geoffrey Neil Gibson, 32 Park Road, Fullchester.
00:02:18Hmm? How old are you?
00:02:20Twelve and a half, sir.
00:02:21Where were you on the afternoon of Friday, June the 16th last year? Can you remember?
00:02:27Yes, sir. I was at the fair with my friend Martin, sir.
00:02:30What time were you there?
00:02:32About three o'clock, sir.
00:02:34Well, what were you doing there at that time on a Friday afternoon? How is it you weren't at school?
00:02:38It was half-term, sir.
00:02:39Yes, thank you.
00:02:40Now, my Lord, I have here photostat copies of an agreed exhibit.
00:02:44It's a simplified sketch plan of the part of Fallowfield Common where the offences in question are alleged to have taken place.
00:02:50I believe you yourself already have a copy, my Lord, so does my learned friend for the defence.
00:02:54I wonder if copies might be given to the witness and to members of the jury, please?
00:03:02Members of the jury, you'll see it's a very simplified plan of the layout of the northern end of Fallowfield Common.
00:03:13Does it say anywhere on it what the scale is, Mr. Edgar?
00:03:19No, my Lord, as I say, it's a very simplified plan.
00:03:21What?
00:03:22Oh, thank you, yes.
00:03:24Well, my Lord, I'm instructed that the scale is, in fact, six inches represents 100 yards.
00:03:29Now, Geoffrey, do you see that plan?
00:03:32Do you recognise that as a sort of rough outline plan of the part of the common where the fair was on June the 16th?
00:03:37Yes, sir.
00:03:38Yes, sir.
00:03:40Now, first of all, do you see that part shown as rough ground there where the fairground stalls and sideshows and roundabouts and so on were?
00:03:48Yes, sir.
00:03:49Did you go there at all that afternoon?
00:03:51Yes, sir.
00:03:52Now, do you see the part where those bushes and trees and shrubbery are marked, as it were, between the fairground area and the main road?
00:03:59The footpaths coming up from the main road going past the pond. Yes, sir, we went there after a bit.
00:04:04Yes, and why did you go there, hmm? Why there?
00:04:07We were looking for a fifty-pence piece. It's fallen out of Martin's pocket or something, so we went back and started to look for it.
00:04:14Now, while you and Martin were searching in the grass and round the bushes and so on, did something happen?
00:04:21Yes, sir. He came and spoke to us, sir, that man.
00:04:24Well, just leave that for a moment, Geoffrey, but a man came and spoke to you. Was he someone you knew?
00:04:30No, sir, he wasn't. I'd never ever seen him before.
00:04:33Yes. Now, do you remember what he said, just the first few words?
00:04:38I think he said, what you're doing or what you're looking for or have you lost something or something like that?
00:04:45Yeah, well, do you remember which of those it was, Geoffrey?
00:04:48I'm not sure. I think he said, have you lost some money?
00:04:51Yeah, it's all right, you see, Geoffrey, you can take your time, but just try and remember what his very first words were.
00:04:57I can't remember what he said afterwards, though. He said, let's all go and have some fun in the bushes.
00:05:04Now, just a moment now, Geoffrey. I know this is very unpleasant and upsetting for you,
00:05:07but perhaps if you just take your time and collect your thoughts for a moment, you'll be able to remember.
00:05:11Martin said he ought to be locked up, and we ran away as fast as we could, and ran straight home, told Mum.
00:05:17And when Dad came, I told him, and Dad said we'd like him ought to be locked up.
00:05:21Yes, well, just a moment, Geoffrey. Did you, in fact, run away and run straight home,
00:05:26or did quite a lot of things happen in between?
00:05:29It was only because the cop has made us.
00:05:31Somebody had to tell him about us.
00:05:33Yes, it's all right, Geoffrey.
00:05:34They helped him catch him, and we did, and that's him, that's him.
00:05:37Yes, it's all right. I think we've...
00:05:39Yes, right. My Lord, I think the most sensible course would be for the boy to be allowed to leave the witness box
00:05:44and compose himself, and in the meantime, while he's doing so, I can call the other boy.
00:05:48Yes, that seems to me to be sensible, Mr Edgar. Have you any objection, Mr Lizard?
00:05:52No, my Lord.
00:05:53Oh, no! This is mine!
00:05:55That's all right, Geoffrey. That's all. Thank you. You may leave the witness box and find me.
00:06:05Call Martin Trevor Clark, please.
00:06:09Hold the book in your right hand and repeat the words on the card.
00:06:29Just shut up, right?
00:06:31Why don't you shut up?
00:06:33Why don't you be able to shut up?
00:06:35See?
00:06:36What do you mean, see?
00:06:37If only you'd done what I said and told her.
00:06:39Plain, straightforward, simple...
00:06:41George, will you please shut up?
00:06:43Why don't you shut up for a change?
00:06:45It's all right.
00:06:46It's all right.
00:06:47About this, I should think.
00:06:49About exactly where that third bush is.
00:06:51Did you know him?
00:06:52Have you ever seen him before?
00:06:54No, sir.
00:06:55Never.
00:06:56Now, Martin, I know this will be rather upsetting and embarrassing for you,
00:06:59but would you please try and tell us, in your own words and time, in your own way,
00:07:03just of the conversation that took place between you?
00:07:07Yes, sir. I'll try.
00:07:09He stopped by the path and looked at us.
00:07:11Then, after a minute, he said,
00:07:13What's the matter? Have you lost something?
00:07:16I said, Yes. I've lost a 50 pence piece.
00:07:19Then he said, I know where you'd get a 50 pence piece each.
00:07:23Would you like one? I mean, one each.
00:07:25I said, I don't know what you mean. What are you talking about?
00:07:28He said, Well, if you come over there, behind that tree with me,
00:07:32we'll have a nice good play with one another.
00:07:34I'll give you a 50 pence piece each.
00:07:36Did you know what he meant?
00:07:37Exactly what he was suggesting by what he was saying?
00:07:40Yes, sir. He wanted me to do an indecent act with him.
00:07:43And after he made that suggestion, what did you say?
00:07:46I told him to push off while I'd report him.
00:07:49Yes, did you want to say something more about that?
00:07:53Well, to be honest, sir, what I think I actually said to him was,
00:07:57Piss off.
00:07:58And what did he reply to that?
00:08:00He said, Fancy a nice young boy like you using words like that.
00:08:05And what was he wearing at the time? Can you tell us?
00:08:07Blue jacket, dark blue with brass buttons, dark trousers,
00:08:12in an open-export shirt with small checks.
00:08:16I'm not absolutely sure if he was wearing the coat all the time, though.
00:08:20It was a rather hot day, and some of the time
00:08:22he might have been carrying it over his arm.
00:08:24And can you describe for us what he looked like?
00:08:27About medium height, not tall.
00:08:30Not thin, but not very fat either.
00:08:32Middle-aged, well, getting on a bit.
00:08:36His eyes were sort of bluey-green.
00:08:39He had got brown hair, going a bit thinner on the top,
00:08:42cut quite short.
00:08:43Do you see him in this courtroom here today?
00:08:45Yes, him, there.
00:08:49Now, will you go on in your own words, please, Martin,
00:08:51will you tell us what happened next?
00:08:53Then I suddenly shouted,
00:08:54Come on, Geoff, run!
00:08:56We ran as hard as we could back to where the sideshows
00:08:58and all the people were,
00:08:59and Geoff and I reported him to the two coppers.
00:09:01Yes, and then what happened?
00:09:03One of them said he and the other policeman
00:09:06would walk on the fairground with us
00:09:07to see if we could spot him.
00:09:09And did you?
00:09:10Yes, we did.
00:09:11It was amazing.
00:09:12We went past, I think, a rifle storm.
00:09:16And there he was, as large as life,
00:09:19chatting away to a group of five or six other boys
00:09:21as though nothing had happened.
00:09:23And it was the same man who only perhaps
00:09:24five or ten minutes earlier
00:09:25had been making suggestions to you
00:09:27that you commit acts of gross indecency
00:09:29with him in the bushes.
00:09:31Yes, sir. Same man, same clothes,
00:09:33saying the coppers went right up to him and nicked him.
00:09:35Mm-hmm.
00:09:36I mean, arrested him.
00:09:37Well, was any more said after that?
00:09:39I don't mean by the policemen or by him to them.
00:09:42I mean by him to you or you to him.
00:09:44No.
00:09:47Not for a long time, anyway.
00:09:49Sorry, Martin, I'm afraid I don't quite understand what you mean.
00:09:52I mean, nobody said anything then.
00:09:55But later on, he was leaning against the back of the stall
00:09:59with his eyes shut.
00:10:00Then he suddenly opened them and said,
00:10:02Who are you?
00:10:03Why are you doing this?
00:10:04Well, who was he saying that to?
00:10:06To you?
00:10:07To Geoffrey?
00:10:08To the police?
00:10:09Or who?
00:10:10I don't know.
00:10:11I couldn't make it out to who he meant
00:10:12because he had his eyes shut.
00:10:14After that, we didn't see him again
00:10:16because the policeman with the car came.
00:10:18Well, not until much later on, down at the police station.
00:10:22Yes, well, I think you'd better tell us about that,
00:10:24would you please, Martin,
00:10:25about what happened at the police station?
00:10:27They took me downstairs.
00:10:29I looked through a sort of peephole thing in the cell door
00:10:32and there he was, sitting at the edge of the bed
00:10:35with his head in his hands.
00:10:37I had to wait quite a bit until he moved his hands
00:10:39and I could see his face.
00:10:41And so you identified him there at the police station yet again?
00:10:45Yes, sir.
00:10:46Well, now, Martin, the man who made the suggestion
00:10:49to you and Geoffrey in the woods,
00:10:51the man you pointed out almost ten minutes later
00:10:53to the police officers,
00:10:54the man you identified at the police station
00:10:56after you'd made your statement
00:10:58and that man who was sitting there now,
00:11:00are you absolutely certain that they were
00:11:02and are all one and the same person?
00:11:05Yes, sir, I am.
00:11:07That's definitely him.
00:11:09And I think he's a downright disgusting, dirty old man.
00:11:15Martin, is it the first time that such a thing has happened to you personally,
00:11:30that a man has made an indecent suggestion to you of this sort?
00:11:34Mr. Lisbeth, I am not at all sure what it is you're going to suggest.
00:11:37May the witness answer the question, my lord?
00:11:39Well, I should prefer first to have some indication of the direction you're going in.
00:11:42Well, the extent of the preparedness or otherwise of the witness to know how to deal with it.
00:11:46Well, I should have thought myself...
00:11:48Well, you may proceed a little further, Mr. Lisbeth,
00:11:51but I am holding myself very ready to interrupt.
00:11:54My lord.
00:11:55I'm suggesting, you see, that you knew immediately what he was suggesting,
00:11:59that it took you hardly any time at all to know what he was after.
00:12:02How long would you say your conversation with him lasted?
00:12:05Not long. Five minutes, perhaps.
00:12:07Yes, well, while you were recounting it in evidence earlier,
00:12:10I took the trouble to time it on my wristwatch
00:12:12and it came to just over one minute.
00:12:14So should we say perhaps two minutes at the outside?
00:12:17Well, yes. I suppose so, then.
00:12:19Yes. How close would you say he came to you at any time?
00:12:21Not near. I made sure I kept a good bit of space between us
00:12:24to give us the start to run.
00:12:26Yes, of course, quite right, too.
00:12:27But what was the nearest he came to you?
00:12:30It's hard to say. About...
00:12:34Sorry. I'm afraid I'm not very good at distances.
00:12:37Well, as near as we are to each other now, or a bit nearer, a bit further away.
00:12:42A bit nearer.
00:12:43Ah, my lord, may I.
00:12:45I'll, er... I'll come down to you, shall I?
00:12:47And you, er, you tell me when to stop.
00:12:50Yes. About there.
00:12:53About here.
00:12:54Now, Martin, you and I have been talking together a lot longer
00:12:57than you and this man who approached you by the path through the wood.
00:13:01Tell me, Martin, what colour would you say my eyes are?
00:13:05Er... blue, I think.
00:13:08Ah. Not really, Martin, are they? No.
00:13:11But, of course, that's a very easy mistake to make.
00:13:14Lots of us hardly notice things like that.
00:13:16Now, you recognised and saw the colour of the eyes of this man, Mr Barton,
00:13:21under circumstances we shall come to later, er, when the police officers had arrested him.
00:13:25No, I recognised him by his coat, his trousers, his face and his hair as well.
00:13:30Well, is there anything really so remarkable or striking about his face or hair that would make him outstanding
00:13:36among all those other people on and around and about the common of similar age and height and build?
00:13:42Yes. His eyes.
00:13:44Well, I think we've disposed of the subject of his eyes, Martin.
00:13:47Now, erm, you go to Fulchester Park Comprehensive School, is that right? And you're in the third form?
00:13:53Yes, sir. 3A, sir.
00:13:55Yes. It's a mixed school, mixed classes of boys and girls.
00:13:58Yes, sir.
00:13:59And it has quite a reputation, a very high one, hasn't it, for being a modern and progressive school in very many different ways?
00:14:05Yes, sir. I think so, sir. I think it has.
00:14:08Yes. There's a very good library there, I believe, a very big one, too.
00:14:11Yes, sir.
00:14:12That any pupil can use without restriction or censorship?
00:14:15Yes, sir.
00:14:16Yes. And it contains, er, for example, books such as this one, which gives very detailed advice and diagrams
00:14:23on both male and female methods of contraception. And, er, this one, which includes information about how to deal with, er, obscene telephone calls.
00:14:33These books are all in the school library, eh?
00:14:35Really?
00:14:36Yes, my lord. They, they have the labels in the front. They were lent to us for these proceedings.
00:14:40Really?
00:14:41Er, Martin, do you recollect reading any particular ones of these?
00:14:45Not reading all the way right through, sir. No, sir.
00:14:48But you're familiar with them?
00:14:50Yes, sir.
00:14:51Yes. Though at your school you're not just left by yourself to find out about things, are you?
00:14:55Sir?
00:14:56Well, you have regular, weekly-formed discussions about any subject that any pupil wishes to suggest.
00:15:02Yes, sir.
00:15:03Yes. And sometimes, instead of a discussion with a member of the staff, an outside speaker is invited to come.
00:15:09Yes, sir.
00:15:10When was the last time one of these outside speakers came?
00:15:13Last week, sir. An old woman came from the local Natural History Society through a tank of axolotls.
00:15:19A tank of what?
00:15:20Axolotls, sir. They're like prehistoric goldfish.
00:15:23Oh. Thank you.
00:15:25Yes, well, I'm sorry. What I actually meant, Martin, was who was the last visiting speaker you had before the fair?
00:15:30Well, am I right in thinking it was a policeman who came to give you a talk?
00:15:34What did he talk about?
00:15:35Well, crime, sir.
00:15:37Yes, but his talk had a title, didn't it? Do you remember what it was called?
00:15:42Oh, may I prompt you? It was called, wasn't it, Common Sense?
00:15:47And he didn't mince his words, did he? Among other things, he spelt out very clearly to both the boys and the girls the sort of things that some men try to get them to do of a sexual nature in return for a reward of, say, sweets or money.
00:16:02Yes, sir.
00:16:03Now, on that afternoon at the fair, when you and Geoffrey ran away from the man, you almost immediately saw a policeman standing there in plain clothes, the very same one who'd been at your school just recently and given your class a talk.
00:16:17I didn't recognise him, sir.
00:16:21Did you swear on oath to that, Martin?
00:16:23Yes, sir.
00:16:25Well, you say you can recognise one man after speaking to him for less than two minutes, and yet you didn't recognise another man, a policeman who'd only recently been at your school and sat or stood in front of your class, giving a talk for over half an hour, answering questions.
00:16:40You didn't recognise him a week or two later when you saw him at the fair?
00:16:45No, sir.
00:16:46I went up to him and I said, excuse me, but you know I can find a policeman, please.
00:16:51And he said, I'm a policeman, son.
00:16:53What do you want?
00:16:54Well, well.
00:16:56Well, just one final question, Martin, that's all, I don't want to continue the strain on you.
00:17:01Now, when you and Geoffrey went with Detective Constable Hargreaves and his colleague to try and find the man who'd made this indecent suggestion to you, as you've already described, it was amazing.
00:17:12There he was, large as life.
00:17:15Now, I put it to you that one of the policemen said to you something like, look, him there.
00:17:21Is that him?
00:17:22Is that how it was?
00:17:23Something like that.
00:17:24I don't really remember quite what happened.
00:17:26The policeman pointed him out to you and you agreed that he was pointing out the right man, is that correct?
00:17:31My lord, my learned friend is really putting words into the witness's mouth in the most flavour.
00:17:34No, sir.
00:17:35I think it was me who said, look, that's him.
00:17:37Martin, this is a very, very important point which we must get up to.
00:17:40You have your answer, Mr. Nesbitt.
00:17:45Thank you, Martin. I've no more questions.
00:17:50I've no wish, no wish to re-examine at all, thank you, my lord.
00:17:53Yes, Martin, thank you. Then you may leave the witness box.
00:18:10He was at that time standing talking by a shooting gallery stall with a group of five or six other older boys.
00:18:19Laughing and having a competition with them to see who was the best shot, presumably.
00:18:23I went up to him and asked if I could have a word with him.
00:18:26Er, please, my lord, may I?
00:18:32He said, yes, of course, officer, by all means, isn't it a lovely afternoon?
00:18:36I took him on one side, out of earshot of the boys by the rifle stall,
00:18:40and I said, do you recognise either of those two boys standing over there,
00:18:44pointing at Martin Clark and Geoffrey Gibson,
00:18:46who were standing at a slight distance with Detective Constable Wilkinson?
00:18:50He said, no, I don't think so. Why?
00:18:53I said, they've both made accusations of indecent suggestions by you,
00:18:57and I'm taking you into custody.
00:19:00Well, officer, is that your full note on that point?
00:19:02Er, yes, it is, my lord. I don't use a notebook very much.
00:19:05I can usually remember details without any great difficulty.
00:19:09Well, did he say anything in reply to that?
00:19:11Yes, he did. He said, no, no, no, no, like that four times in succession,
00:19:16and then, no, it wasn't me.
00:19:19Nothing else?
00:19:20Not at that time, no.
00:19:22Er, later on, quite a bit later, about half an hour afterwards it would be,
00:19:26whilst we were waiting for Detective Constable Wilkinson to bring the car round,
00:19:30he said,
00:19:32who are you, why are you doing this?
00:19:36I said, we are police officers, as...
00:19:41I said, we are police officers.
00:19:43As you know, complaints have been made against you,
00:19:46and we are taking you down to the station.
00:19:49He then closed his eyes and put his head back against the side of the rifle stall
00:19:54that we were standing against and seemed to go to sleep.
00:19:56Go to sleep?
00:19:57It was a very hot afternoon, my lord,
00:19:59and I presumed it was rather drowsy as a result of having had a drink.
00:20:02Oh, my lord, I really must object most strenuously to that.
00:20:05Must you, Mr. Nisbet, why, sir?
00:20:07The officer only said that he had the impression that the man was drowsy.
00:20:12He wasn't suggesting, were you, that he was under the influence of drink?
00:20:16Oh, no, in no way, my lord, no, certainly not.
00:20:19Well, is it part of your case, Mr. Nisbet, that your client is a teetotaler?
00:20:22I know, my lord, it is not.
00:20:24As you thought, then, the point was almost one being made in your favour,
00:20:28to explain what would otherwise look like indifference to the seriousness of the situation.
00:20:33Would you like to go on, Mr. Edgar?
00:20:35Thank you, my lord.
00:20:36And when you'd taken him to the police station, officer,
00:20:38did he elect to make a statement which was taken down in writing and afterwards signed by him?
00:20:42Yes, my lord, that's quite correct.
00:20:44May he be shown Exhibit 2, please?
00:20:52Is that the Exhibit?
00:20:54Yes, sir.
00:20:55Is he right to say in the case of the rifle range, adamantly, does he not,
00:21:00that the boys were completely mistaken,
00:21:03and that before they pointed him out at the rifle range stall,
00:21:06he had neither spoken a word with him in his life?
00:21:09Yes, that's perfectly correct.
00:21:10I think it's only fair...
00:21:12Yes?
00:21:13I was going to say, my lord, I think it's only fair to point out
00:21:17that he never at any time said anything from the moment that I first approached him,
00:21:21which could in any way be construed as an admission of guilt.
00:21:24Well, I think that's a very commendable observation in these days
00:21:28when we hear so many accusations by accused persons of police making up statements of guilt
00:21:33and attributing them to...
00:21:34Um, constable, about how many people were there at the fair on the common the afternoon who...
00:21:41Very many, lord, it...
00:21:44The fair haven't properly got going, I'd say about 250.
00:21:47Uh, 300 at the most, that's all.
00:21:49300?
00:21:50Well, actually, that's quite a large number.
00:21:52Considered in terms of singling out one individual within a space of four or five minutes.
00:21:58In fact, the speed of it can only be explained as an incredible and fantastic piece of luck.
00:22:03Or is there possibly one other explanation?
00:22:07I'm sorry, my lord, I don't understand the question.
00:22:10Well, may I have a look at your notebook, officer?
00:22:12Would you open it for me, please, at the page you read out to us when he said,
00:22:16Who are you? Why are you doing this?
00:22:19Yes, you just print occasional words rather widely spaced across the page, do you?
00:22:36Well, it might be called the key words, yes.
00:22:39And I see you more or less ignore punctuation altogether.
00:22:42Let it, as it were, speak for itself.
00:22:45We are police officers.
00:22:47As you know, complaints have been made against you.
00:22:51Well, when he began, my learned friend for the prosecution said that this was a perfectly simple, ordinary, straightforward case.
00:22:57Well, it is not. Not at all. Far from it.
00:23:00We are police officers, as you know.
00:23:03Complaints have been made against you.
00:23:05Yes, officer, you do know the accused very well, don't you?
00:23:09In fact, you yourself have arrested him several times in the past.
00:23:14Hasn't he already served six prison sentences for gross indecency with boys?
00:23:21Tomorrow, you can join us again when the case of the Queen against Barton will be resumed in the Crown Court.
00:23:48The Crown Court.
00:23:49The Crown Court.
00:23:53The Crown Court.
00:23:54It is contagious.
00:23:55The Crown Court.
00:23:56The Crown Court.
00:23:57The Crown Court.
00:23:58Reginald Barton has pleaded not guilty to charges of inciting two schoolboys to commit
00:24:23gross indecency. The defence say he was arrested because the police knew he had several convictions
00:24:28already for the same offence and because they pointed him out to the two boys. What is your
00:24:34address and occupation Mr Barton? I live at flat two Prince's Court Hill Road. I am the site manager
00:24:42for the firm of Vincent Brothers, builders and contractors. And the flat you live in is the home
00:24:47of your widowed mother Mrs Barton I believe and you pay her £35 a week towards your rent and keep.
00:24:54Yes sir. How long have you been living with her in the flat in Hill Road? For the last six months I
00:25:00went to live there immediately after I was last convicted. Which was at which court and your
00:25:04sentence was what? It was a Broxley Crown Court and the sentence was for two years imprisonment which
00:25:11was suspended by three years. What was it for Mr Barton? Attempt to no I'm sorry an incitement of
00:25:20a boy under the age of fourteen to commit an act of gross indecency. To which you pleaded? Guilty sir.
00:25:26How many previous convictions have you for this or at any rate for offences of this kind?
00:25:32Fourteen sir. And going back over the past what almost 25 years is it since you were about 30?
00:25:39Yes sir I'm 54 now so that that will be since I was 29 sir. And have all these convictions resulted in prison sentences?
00:25:47No sir six of the last fourteen have resulted in prison sentences. Well seven actually. I think technically the last one counts as a prison sentence even though it was ordered to be suspended sir.
00:25:57But anyway you've been actually in prison six times. It was only the first few times that you were punished with such things as fines and probation?
00:26:05Yes sir. That is the defendant's antecedent history. Is it Mr... is it? Yes my lord.
00:26:10Do you wish to exhibit it to army to have copies of it? Oh it was not my intention to offer it formally as such but I would willingly do so and have copies made for members of the jury.
00:26:18There's nothing whatever on it that we wish to or intend to hide. Yes sir. Proceed. However, well no. Proceed for the moment.
00:26:26My lord. Now on these uh previous occasions Mr. Barton on all of them it is true to say is it not that you pleaded guilty without hesitation to every one of the charges?
00:26:36Yes I did sir. Why is that? Why have you always pleaded guilty?
00:26:40Because I always was guilty sir. And have you always been completely honest in admitting it?
00:26:45Yes sir. Mr. Barton have you ever pleaded guilty to um... no I'll put that a bit stronger.
00:26:51Have you ever in the whole of your life been charged with offences of any other kind whatsoever?
00:26:58No sir I have not. No offences for instance involving such things as theft, burglary, embezzlement, fraud or any kind of dishonesty whatsoever?
00:27:08No certainly not.
00:27:11Were you at one time a member of a sailing boat club which operated on the waters of the local authorities disused clay pits at Stonestead?
00:27:19Yes sir. And did you hold voluntary office for almost the whole of that period on the uh committee of the club?
00:27:24Yes I was the honorary treasurer sir.
00:27:26What sort of sums were involved? How much money passed through your hands let's say in a year?
00:27:31About two thousand pounds sir.
00:27:33And uh when your treasurership uh came to a somewhat abrupt end two years ago when you were sent to prison,
00:27:39did the officials of the club appoint somebody else as treasurer and did he naturally immediately check the club's books to see what the finances were in?
00:27:48Yes they did sir.
00:27:50And on the last occasion when you were in trouble that is six months ago when you were on trial at Broxley Crown Court
00:27:56and there was then the possibility that if you were not sent to prison you would be able to obtain your present job as site manager for the building and contracting firm of Vincent's.
00:28:05Did that person, the person who uh became the treasurer of the sailing club, write this letter to Vincent's in which he said,
00:28:14I found the books of the club had been kept in perfect order by Mr. Barton while he was treasurer and there was not a single error or discrepancy or shortage of any kind?
00:28:24Yes he did sir.
00:28:25Well one of the reasons for his writing that of course Mr. Barton was uh that it was a sort of reference wasn't it for Vincent's
00:28:31because the job they were going to give you if you were not sent to prison would involve you in handling large sums of cash.
00:28:37Yes uh well the paying out of the weekly site wages.
00:28:41And how much money passes through your hands there Mr. Barton?
00:28:44Well it varies of course with the number of men on the site but uh I would say in the average of over well ten thousand pound a week sir.
00:28:51And Vincent's have no fears in entrusting you with the responsibility of handling such large sums of money in cash?
00:28:59Apparently not no sir.
00:29:01You're being modest Mr. Barton they know you for what you are and what your answers to my questions continuously show you to be a man of complete integrity and total honesty.
00:29:10And Vincent's managing director Mr. Samuels is here himself and will speak on your behalf later and give us his opinion of your character.
00:29:17Yes sir he has kindly offered to give up his time and come here and do that.
00:29:20Did he know when he offered you this job with his firm six months ago that you had this sort of record?
00:29:25Oh yes I told him.
00:29:26What all of it every single detail?
00:29:28Yes sir.
00:29:29Good.
00:29:30Well now will you uh will you look at this letter please?
00:29:39Is that a letter which Mr. Samuels wrote to your solicitor whilst you were in custody awaiting trial?
00:29:45And does he write in that that he thought you were perhaps the most painfully honest person he'd ever met?
00:29:51Well.
00:29:52Yes he does.
00:29:54Now I'd like to turn now for a few moments to a different subject altogether.
00:29:58The subject of gross indecency itself.
00:30:01In these days of not only freedom of speech but of a different kind of free speech altogether.
00:30:07Um.
00:30:08Those two words do sound what they are.
00:30:13Uh lurid, over vivid, old fashioned and vague piece of legal jargon.
00:30:20What it actually means is sexually fondling someone or just touching them doesn't it?
00:30:27Or encouraging them to do it to you.
00:30:30What it emphatically does not mean is anything more than that does it?
00:30:34Are you suggesting that it's not a serious offence?
00:30:37Oh no my lord I'm certainly not.
00:30:41Um.
00:30:42However Mr. Barton perhaps we can go on to another subject of relevance to you.
00:30:45In em, in recent years, say the last 10 or 12 years or so, on the occasions when you've been in prison,
00:30:52have you ever received treatment of any kind for your condition?
00:30:56No sir, I've not.
00:30:57Mr. Nisbet, imprisonment is treatment.
00:31:02Uh, yes I'm sorry my lord.
00:31:04Um.
00:31:05I'll put it again to make my meaning clear.
00:31:07Uh, Mr. Barton, in prison have you ever been given any kind of medical psychiatric treatment?
00:31:13No sir, none whatsoever.
00:31:14Have you ever been offered any while you were there?
00:31:16No sir.
00:31:17Have you ever made any efforts to obtain any while there?
00:31:20Yes sir, during my last sentence.
00:31:22I was told there was none available at the, uh, the prison I was in.
00:31:26And, uh, I'm sorry, go on.
00:31:29Well I was going on to say sir that I was also told that there was no point in asking for a transfer to another prison
00:31:35because the only one that had facilities for the kind of treatment I needed was full up.
00:31:39And anyway they didn't take prisoners with sentences as short as mine either.
00:31:43Thank you for making that clear.
00:31:44I was going to go on to ask, had you, uh, sought treatment of any kind while you were out of prison?
00:31:49Well, to be truthful, it was only when Mr. Samuels started taking an interest that I, I started thinking about it again.
00:31:55When I was last charged at Broxley six months ago, I think one of the things that influenced the judge into making the sentence a suspended one,
00:32:04was that, um, Mr. Samuels told him he'd found a doctor who was prepared to take me on as a patient.
00:32:09Ah, yes, you're referring to Dr. Andrew Allen, a psychiatrist at St. Saviour's Mental Hospital, who will be called on your behalf later on.
00:32:16Yes, sir.
00:32:17Ah, you go to St. Saviour's on a voluntary basis as an outpatient, do you?
00:32:20I go twice a week, yes.
00:32:21And have you been going every week, twice a week, since you were convicted of Broxley six months ago?
00:32:25Yes, sir.
00:32:26How many times have you missed going so far, Mr. Barton?
00:32:29Well, not once. Well, that is not until...
00:32:32Yes, until you were arrested and kept in custody to await this trial.
00:32:35Yes.
00:32:36Was it a condition of the sentence being suspended that you receive treatment from Dr. Allen?
00:32:41No, sir.
00:32:42No, sir.
00:32:43But it was a condition of your sentence being suspended that you were put under a probation officer's supervision.
00:32:48Yes, but I wanted to. I wanted to make it absolutely clear to my mother that I was doing everything I could.
00:32:53Everything you could in what respect?
00:32:56To change myself.
00:32:57Yes, this was a subject of, to say the least, of some great tension between your mother and yourself, I believe, for some time in the past.
00:33:05Well, for almost the last eight years, sir, during my last three terms of imprisonment, my mother has refused to visit me or have correspond, have anything to do with me.
00:33:16And, well, even between times when I was not in prison, if I tried to see her or even telephone her, she said she couldn't have anything to do with me.
00:33:25It's not her fault. She's old and her heart's very bad.
00:33:28She couldn't, she couldn't take the pain and the disgrace and the humiliation I was constantly bringing to her.
00:33:34Yes, but as I understand it now, she has had a change of heart and has provided you once again with a home with her. Why is that?
00:33:43I don't know, sir.
00:33:46Out of the Christian goodness of her heart, sir.
00:33:48Oh, no!
00:33:49Violence, please!
00:33:50She's...
00:33:52Well, Mr. Samuels went to see her, and as I understand it, he introduced her to Dr. Allen, who told her he was prepared to take me on as a patient.
00:34:00And Mr. Samuels said he would give me a job, well, offer to do so.
00:34:05And that possibly the court would be prepared to look favourable to be upon a positive treatment plan.
00:34:11Yes, thank you. You've been very frank about a very painful subject yet again.
00:34:15Now, Mr. Barton, these two boys say you gave them 50 pence each to commit an act of gross indecency with them.
00:34:23Did you?
00:34:25No, sir, I did not.
00:34:26So are you suggesting that they're lying?
00:34:28No, no, I...
00:34:30What I'm saying is that somebody asked them to, but it wasn't me.
00:34:33I wasn't anywhere near where the incident occurred.
00:34:35I came to the common from the exact opposite direction, from the opposite side, from the direction of St. Saviour's Hospital, where I'd been having a therapy session with Dr. Allen.
00:34:44Well, the police officer says the boy's identified you to him. Do you suggest that he's lying?
00:34:49Oh, no, I'm sure he's not, not deliberately.
00:34:51Now, Mr. Barton, all these things. The judge, on the previous occasion, showing you leniency and suspending your term of imprisonment.
00:34:59Mr. Samuels befriending you, and giving you a good job, and getting Dr. Allen to take you on as a patient.
00:35:05Dr. Allen treating you himself twice a week at the hospital.
00:35:09And your mother, after many years of estrangement, giving you a home once again with her.
00:35:14All these things happening to you all at once, six months ago. What did they make you feel?
00:35:19For years, I never dared think that there was such a thing as hope at all.
00:35:24But there was hope. There was. And as long as I go on being absolutely and completely honest about every single thing, there is.
00:35:36And would you dream of jeopardizing it, let alone throwing it away?
00:35:39No, no, never, no.
00:35:41And did you, on that day, or for that matter, any other day, make any kind of indecent suggestions to anyone at all on the Common?
00:35:49I swear on my oath before God, no.
00:35:51Mr. Barton, you are, or so it would seem we should believe, one of the most remarkably honest and straightforward men who's ever had the misfortune to find himself here.
00:36:07A pillar of rectitude. Almost a saint. Apart, of course, that is, from your unfortunate predilections, proclivities and activities, where small boys are concerned.
00:36:21Mr. Barton, you are a pedophile. Someone, that is, who is sexually attracted towards young children, in your own case, small boys.
00:36:41Yes.
00:36:42And you are aware, are you, of the, well, I believe there are three or four of them now, the societies and organizations which have been formed and sprung up and attracted quite an amount of publicity from time to time.
00:36:54The societies of people who argue that such sexual attraction is nothing very abnormal, really, after all.
00:37:00Well, yes, I've, I've heard of, well, I've read about them in the newspapers and so on, yes.
00:37:04Mm-hmm. You're a member of any of them?
00:37:06Of the societies and organizations for...
00:37:08Yes.
00:37:09No, I certainly am not.
00:37:11But are you sympathetic towards their aims and objects?
00:37:14No, I'm not.
00:37:15Oh, you wouldn't argue, then, that there should be more public understanding and tolerance of people who feel as you do?
00:37:21Mr. Edgar, is this line of questioning really strictly relevant?
00:37:25Ah, my lord, in my submission, yes, but it's not vital.
00:37:29Mr. Barton, to come promptly, then, to at least one point, you yourself admit, do you not, that what is wrong with you is basically an illness, a perversion, which definitely requires treatment.
00:37:40Yes.
00:37:41Which is why now, at last, after 25 years, you are submitting yourself to it?
00:37:46Yes.
00:37:47What does this treatment consist of, exactly, Mr. Barton?
00:37:51Of seeing Dr. Alan twice a week at St. Avery's Hospital.
00:37:54Yes, well, I'm sure you'll appreciate that isn't an answer to my question, which was, what does the treatment consist of, not where are you having it and from whom?
00:38:01Oh, I'm sorry, yes.
00:38:03My treatment consists of taking the tablets prescribed by Dr. Alan and talking to him about my problem for half an hour on each of my twice-weekly visits.
00:38:11I see, what are the tablets?
00:38:13Pardon?
00:38:14I said, what are the tablets?
00:38:15I don't know.
00:38:16What haven't you asked?
00:38:17No.
00:38:18Well, what's their purpose? What are they for?
00:38:20Well, to...
00:38:21Well, I suppose they're to try and...
00:38:23With respect, my lord, since I've already made it clear that I shall be calling Dr. Alan later, I would suggest that he is the proper person to be asked questions of this kind.
00:38:32Mr. Barton is in no way medically qualified and therefore not competent to answer.
00:38:36Mr. Edgar?
00:38:37Well, my lord, since Mr. Barton is, after all, the person who is taking the tablets, perhaps I may at least be permitted to ask him what effect they are having on it.
00:38:45Thank you, my lord.
00:38:46Mr. Barton?
00:38:48They are reducing my sexual feelings.
00:38:51They are reducing your sexual feelings?
00:38:53Yes.
00:38:54Reducing?
00:38:55By that I take what you mean they're not completely wiped out.
00:38:58Did you hear my question?
00:39:02Yes.
00:39:03Did you understand it?
00:39:04Yes.
00:39:05Will you answer it then, please?
00:39:07No.
00:39:08I beg your pardon?
00:39:10No, my sexual feelings are not completely dead yet.
00:39:13Oh.
00:39:14Yes, I see.
00:39:17Well, yes, you are this what was called painfully honest person about yourself, aren't you?
00:39:23But I think you would agree with me, would you not, Mr. Barton, that honesty, in fact, is very far from being defined merely, for example, as keeping one's fingers out of the till.
00:39:34There's, well, betrayal of trust, for instance, isn't there?
00:39:39I'm sorry, I don't think I know what you mean.
00:39:41Oh, I think you do, Mr. Barton.
00:39:43I think you do understand very well what I mean by the phrase, betrayal of trust.
00:39:48You may not yet know specifically what I'm referring to, but you do know what those words mean.
00:39:55Well, now I'll tell you what I'm referring to, shall I?
00:39:57Of a specific instance of your betraying trust.
00:40:01When you were sent to prison, when you were, as we've heard, treasurer of a sailing club, sent to prison for offences involving indecency with young boys, who were those young boys, Mr. Barton?
00:40:13Hmm?
00:40:14I don't mean their names, but who were they?
00:40:17Yes, they were young boys, weren't they, who were members of the sailing club, of which you were an honorary official, and in which you took advantage of your position as an apparently respectable member of the management committee, not of filching money out of the till, no, but of doing something which many people would regard as far more serious indeed.
00:40:37Well, Mr. Barton, would you call that the action of an honest man?
00:40:44Now, the matter of your conviction, what, eight, nine years ago, was it?
00:40:52Do you care to tell us who that person was you committed that crime against and were sent to prison for?
00:40:58No, of course you don't.
00:41:02It was your own eleven-year-old nephew, was it not?
00:41:06The youngest child of your own sister, which was the reason, wasn't it, for your mother turning her back on you, and why it's taken her so many years to forget and forgive.
00:41:14Hmm?
00:41:16Well, Mr. Barton, will you answer?
00:41:19So, now we've cleared the ground, or perhaps I should say background, shouldn't I?
00:41:27Well, almost.
00:41:30Mr. Barton, you've always pleaded guilty to charges against you when you were guilty, because you had in fact committed the offences.
00:41:36But are you also asking us to believe that there were not at other times, other offences, for which you were never detected and therefore never charged, but of course never drept of going and giving yourself up for?
00:41:47Yes.
00:41:48No.
00:41:49Yes.
00:41:50No, no, no, no.
00:41:51Well, I'm sure I don't know what that means, and I shouldn't think anybody else does either.
00:41:55However, so, it's against this rather more, well, I was going to say truthful, but instead I'll say realistic background, that we'll go on now, shall we, to the precise matter in question here today, which is what you did or did not do on Fallowfield Common on the afternoon of Friday, June the 16th.
00:42:14Now, you've told us, Mr. Barton, you didn't come onto the Common via the path up through the woodland and shrubbery from the main road, but from the entirely opposite direction, that is to say, from the direction of St. Saviour's Hospital, where you'd been to see Dr. Allen.
00:42:30Is that correct?
00:42:31Yes.
00:42:33Why did you go on the Common, Mr. Barton?
00:42:36Well, it was a warm day, a nice sunny day, I thought I'd walk home rather than take the bus, as I usually did.
00:42:42Mr. Barton, I must ask you to think carefully for your own sake, before you answer my question.
00:42:46You've just said, haven't you, that you thought you'd like to walk home rather than take the bus?
00:42:50Yes.
00:42:51Which sounds as though you're trying to give the impression that you were walking on the Common, on your way home, is that what you are suggesting?
00:42:56Yes.
00:42:58The Common isn't on your way home from St. Saviour's, it's almost exactly the opposite way.
00:43:03Oh yes, I'm sorry, I see what you mean, I didn't understand the question.
00:43:06I went to the pub across the road and had a drink, then thought I'd go for a bit of a stroll and go back past the hospital and then walk home.
00:43:15You came out of the hospital and went over to the pub for a drink?
00:43:18Yes.
00:43:19What do you mean by a drink?
00:43:20Lager.
00:43:21Mr. Barton, are you deliberately trying to give the impression of being a simpleton?
00:43:25No, no, no, I'm sorry, but you see, I don't understand what the question...
00:43:28Please don't keep saying that, Mr. Barton, you seem to be falling back on it as an excuse with increasing regularity.
00:43:33Well, I'll try again.
00:43:35Well, it's surely not very difficult, is it?
00:43:37What do you mean by a drink?
00:43:39Three pints of lager, six, twelve, or what?
00:43:41Oh, yes, I see, I'm sorry.
00:43:43One half a pint glass of bottled lager.
00:43:46One half a pint glass of bottled lager.
00:43:50One.
00:43:51Yes.
00:43:53So you were not in any way under the influence of alcohol, not even slightly.
00:43:56You knew exactly what you were doing and where you were going.
00:43:59Oh yes, definitely.
00:44:00Yes, thank you.
00:44:01So you're not at any time later going to say, for example, that you were shaken and upset after your psychotherapy session, as people sometimes are.
00:44:08So to recover you went across the road and had a few drinks at the pub and as a result found yourself wandering around a little later on a hot day without properly realizing where you were.
00:44:17You're definitely not going to say that.
00:44:20No.
00:44:21So, why did you go on the common?
00:44:24I'm sorry, I don't really understand.
00:44:25Mr. Barton, why did you go on the common? Why the common? Why not the road somewhere else and fields anywhere? Why the common?
00:44:32Well, I suppose because I saw the fair there, I thought I'd go and look at it.
00:44:35Have a look at it, you say? What do you mean exactly? What sort of prizes they were offering on the stalls, what the sideshows were, that sort of thing.
00:44:41Yes.
00:44:42Yes, and what else?
00:44:43Pardon?
00:44:44What else should you go to look at?
00:44:45I'm sorry, how do you mean? I don't really understand what you're trying to get at. I...
00:44:51Well, do you mean people?
00:44:53It surely do you mean people, isn't it?
00:44:56Well, yes, I suppose so. Yes, I do mean people too.
00:45:00Yes, you suppose you do mean people too. And people, of course, includes young boys, doesn't it?
00:45:06Oh, no, no, no, not necessarily, no.
00:45:08Are you seriously meaning to suggest it never even crossed your mind there'd be young boys there too?
00:45:13No, that's not what I mean. Well, of course I knew there'd be young boys. But, I mean, it wasn't like that.
00:45:19What was it like then?
00:45:20I just went to look!
00:45:21And yet, before long, what was it? Ten minutes at the most, and irrespective of what might or might not have happened in between, you end up chatting with a group of boys at a rifle range store.
00:45:32That's not been denied. That is who you were with, isn't it? A group of boys.
00:45:36Yes, but it wasn't. I mean, it hadn't got anything. But, you see, that was not, not intentional.
00:45:42I see. However, let us continue. Now, you've said, Mr. Barton, on a number of occasions that you haven't properly understood a question.
00:45:53So, I'll put this next one as simply as I can. Why do you think, out of all the people on the common, two boys should instantaneously, and without hesitation, pick out you as the one person who made an approach to them?
00:46:10I don't know. I can't imagine.
00:46:14I put it to you that you can imagine, and you do know. Mr. Barton, do I take it you're nodding your agreement?
00:46:22It was very stupid. I'm sorry. What was very stupid, Mr. Barton?
00:46:37The whole idea. What? The whole idea?
00:46:43Of going on the common to look for boys. Mr. Barton, would you repeat that?
00:46:51I said of going on the common to look for boys.
00:46:54Mr. Barton, does that mean that you're changing your plea?
00:46:58Open your plea.
00:46:59You can join us again tomorrow
00:47:27when the case of the Queen against Barton
00:47:29will be concluded in the Crown Court.
00:47:57Reginald Barton had pleaded not guilty
00:48:02to charges of inciting two schoolboys
00:48:04to commit indecency with him.
00:48:06But under cross-examination, Barton has admitted
00:48:08that after a treatment session at the local hospital,
00:48:11he then deliberately went on to the common
00:48:12to look for boys.
00:48:14And at this admission, at the request of his defending counsel,
00:48:17there has been an adjournment.
00:48:18Mr. Barton, since the beginning of this trial,
00:48:30you've stated that nothing whatsoever about yourself
00:48:33should be concealed, have you not?
00:48:35I have asked that that principle be followed, yes.
00:48:38Yes.
00:48:38So in order to dispel any confusion that might exist
00:48:43in the minds of one or two members of the jury
00:48:46about why we adjourned early yesterday,
00:48:49can we go over some of the ground
00:48:51that we've already covered?
00:48:52Yes, please.
00:48:52In his cross-examination of you,
00:48:54my learned friend for the prosecution
00:48:56asked you repeatedly why you chose to go for that stroll
00:49:00on the common in particular.
00:49:01Yes.
00:49:02And by persisting in his questioning of you about it,
00:49:05counsel for the prosecution
00:49:07eventually got you to admit, didn't he,
00:49:09that you did in fact have a specific reason
00:49:11for choosing the common rather than anywhere else.
00:49:14Yes.
00:49:14What was that reason, Mr. Barton?
00:49:17Because I thought, among others,
00:49:19there would be boys over there
00:49:20and I wanted to be in proximity to them.
00:49:22Why did you want to do that?
00:49:25Because I am a homosexual,
00:49:27who is and always has been
00:49:29for the whole of his adult life,
00:49:30as far as I can remember,
00:49:32sexually attracted to young boys.
00:49:34In answering one of my learned friend's questions,
00:49:38you used a particular phrase
00:49:39about your reason for going on the common.
00:49:42What was it?
00:49:43Would you say it again, please,
00:49:44using exactly the same words?
00:49:45Yes.
00:49:47I said I went on the common to look for boys.
00:49:50Did you mean it as an admission of guilt?
00:49:53No.
00:49:55What did you mean to convey them?
00:49:58Well, seeing the fare there,
00:49:59I thought it was a good opportunity
00:50:01to go ahead and put myself to the test
00:50:03and talk to some boys there.
00:50:05Putting yourself to the test?
00:50:07What exactly did you mean by that?
00:50:10Well, Dr. Allen is prescribing tablets for me
00:50:13to lessen and perhaps even eventually
00:50:15to utterly destroy my sexual feelings altogether.
00:50:21But as long as I was taking the tablets,
00:50:23I felt that I would never know exactly
00:50:25when my feelings were no longer
00:50:26things I needed to be afraid of.
00:50:28Cutting down on them
00:50:29had been Dr. Allen's suggestion, had it?
00:50:30No, no.
00:50:31He said,
00:50:32why don't you experiment with them?
00:50:34Find out how large or small a dose you need.
00:50:37What was the result?
00:50:39I realised I had a long way to go
00:50:41and it was far too soon
00:50:42to cut down much on the tablets.
00:50:43Mr. Barton, in conclusion,
00:50:45I'd just like to ask you this once more.
00:50:47Apart from where there were,
00:50:49as we've already said,
00:50:50people about all the time,
00:50:51and you were always out in the open
00:50:53and in full view,
00:50:54apart from that,
00:50:56did you talk to any boys anywhere?
00:50:59No, I did not.
00:51:00Thank you, Mr. Barton.
00:51:03Thank you, Mr. Barton.
00:51:04That's all you may return to the doctor.
00:51:07I would like to call Mr. Victor Samuels, please.
00:51:13Mr. Victor Samuels.
00:51:16Mr. Victor Samuels.
00:51:24Mr. Samuels, you are, I believe, the managing director of Vincent's,
00:51:47the building and contracting firm that employs the defendant, Mr. Barton.
00:51:51Yes, I am.
00:51:52Is he a good employee?
00:51:53I wouldn't say that.
00:51:55I would say he was an outstandingly excellent one.
00:51:58Absolutely hardworking, reliable and trustworthy.
00:52:01So there's no question that as a result of these charges he faces,
00:52:04irrespective of whether he's found guilty or not guilty of them,
00:52:07of his not continuing in your employ?
00:52:10Oh, certainly not.
00:52:11If by some gross miscarriage of justice he is found guilty,
00:52:15then of course he won't be able to,
00:52:17until such time as he comes out of prison, that is.
00:52:20The day following which he'll immediately resume working for me.
00:52:22How long have you known Mr. Barton, Mr. Samuels?
00:52:25Four years.
00:52:26How did you meet him?
00:52:27I met him in prison.
00:52:28I'm a prison visitor.
00:52:30How long have you been doing this sort of voluntary, it is voluntary, is it?
00:52:34Yes.
00:52:35This sort of voluntary work?
00:52:36Twelve years.
00:52:37And would you say, therefore, that you could fairly be described as a very experienced prison visitor?
00:52:43Well, it's hardly a phrase I'd use myself, but yes, I suppose you could.
00:52:47And as such a long-experienced prison visitor,
00:52:49would you now give us your opinion of Mr. Barton as a person?
00:52:53I think he's one of the most...
00:52:56No, I won't qualify that.
00:52:59I think he is the most honest person I've ever met.
00:53:03That's a very strong claim to make about anybody, isn't it?
00:53:06How well do you actually know him?
00:53:08Well, a sexual offender of any kind is always literally a prisoner within a prison.
00:53:18Either he's kept for long periods in solitary confinement, under Rule 43, for his own protection,
00:53:25or, if that's not absolutely necessary, then he has no friends among the other prisoners.
00:53:32They won't speak to him.
00:53:33They won't have anything to do with him.
00:53:35Because he's considered among criminals as the worst and the most obnoxious type of offender,
00:53:42the absolute lowest of the low.
00:53:45So, for well over two years, when he was last in prison,
00:53:50all our conversations were held, in these circumstances, under these conditions.
00:53:56That's why I feel I got to know him in a particularly close fashion.
00:54:00If only because I was one of the very few people he could talk to.
00:54:04So, Mr. Samuels, knowing him as well as you do,
00:54:07and, as we've said, as a very experienced prison visitor,
00:54:10when he so emphatically denies these charges he's on trial for,
00:54:15what's your reaction to that?
00:54:17I believe him, absolutely and completely.
00:54:21There can be no question of doubt about it whatsoever.
00:54:23He must be innocent.
00:54:25Thank you, Mr. Samuels.
00:54:26Mr. Samuels, it might perhaps be relevant to mention at the outset
00:54:32that as well as being a successful businessman,
00:54:35and I hope that's an accurate assumption, is it,
00:54:38you also hold a law degree, do you not?
00:54:41It's hardly for me to say whether it's relevant or not, I don't think, is it?
00:54:45However, that is true.
00:54:46I am a barrister at law.
00:54:48Are you practicing, Mr. Samuels?
00:54:50I know, my lord.
00:54:50Oh, may I say that it's not because I was disbarred.
00:54:55I merely gave up my practice to become legal advisor to building contractors
00:54:59and then gradually moved more and more into the business side.
00:55:02Oh, well, thank you for removing that possible misunderstanding.
00:55:06My lord.
00:55:07And as well as being managing director of a large company
00:55:10and a qualified barrister, and also a prison visitor,
00:55:15you have a number of other interests, do you not?
00:55:17Oh, very many, yes.
00:55:18Would you care to tell us about some of the better-known ones?
00:55:22Good gracious, no.
00:55:23But they don't include homosexual activities or fancying young children,
00:55:27if that's what you were asking about.
00:55:29No, Mr. Samuels, it wasn't.
00:55:32I play a little chess.
00:55:33Ah, so you describe this as what?
00:55:35Possibly the alakine defence?
00:55:38I was thinking more of the Queen's Night Gambit decline.
00:55:42Mr. Edgar, Mr. Samuels, please, if you'd be so kind, may we proceed?
00:55:47My lord.
00:55:49Mr. Samuels, you are, or am I not right, vice-president of a society called Bail?
00:55:53One among 16 vice-presidents, to be precise.
00:55:56One of the stated objectives of which...
00:55:58Bail, did you say?
00:56:00Ah, yes, my lord.
00:56:01I believe, though Mr. Samuels will correct me if I have it wrong,
00:56:04that the name is formed from the initial letters of the organisation's full name,
00:56:09B-A-I-L, standing for Barristers Against Imprisonment League.
00:56:14One of the stated and well-publicised objectives of which
00:56:17is the total abolition of all forms of imprisonment for all crimes, whatever.
00:56:23Yes.
00:56:24We believe that the correct way to deal with crime and the offender is in the community,
00:56:28rather than by...
00:56:29Yes, yes, thank you, Mr. Samuels.
00:56:30Those of us who wish can learn of the society's aims from its many pamphlets and publications,
00:56:35but simply, I repeat, it, and you yourself, presumably, too,
00:56:39is and are against all imprisonment for any sort of offender.
00:56:43Yes.
00:56:44So that no matter who appeared here in this court or any other charged with no matter what offence,
00:56:48if there was a prospect of their going to prison for it,
00:56:51you would always be prepared to speak up in their behalf.
00:56:54Well, I wouldn't say I'd be as completely unselective as that.
00:56:59I wouldn't have much sympathy for, let's say, for instance,
00:57:03a barrister caught parking on double yellow lines.
00:57:06I would think that, as an upholder of the law,
00:57:09he should be meticulous in observing it.
00:57:12I wouldn't be prepared to offer much assistance to him.
00:57:15Thank you, Mr. Samuels.
00:57:16I'm sure the assurance that you wouldn't speak for them
00:57:19will come as a relief to quite a few members of the legal profession.
00:57:23Mr. Nesbitt.
00:57:25No, thank you, my lord, Mr. Samuels.
00:57:27My lord.
00:57:28Hmm.
00:57:42And how long has he been your patient, Dr. Allen?
00:57:45Six months.
00:57:45I see him twice a week for about half an hour at a time.
00:57:49I understand he hasn't missed a single appointment since he began his treatment, has he?
00:57:53No, not one.
00:57:54Not until I had to be suspended because he was arrested and kept in custody.
00:57:58Is that unusual, a 100% attendance record for psychotherapy?
00:58:02No, I wouldn't say it was unusual.
00:58:04But in view of the great emotional strain psychotherapy does often cause,
00:58:08particularly to patients who are not young,
00:58:09it does indicate a high degree of motivation and wanting treatment.
00:58:13Thank you very much indeed, Dr. Allen.
00:58:14Dr. Allen, when did you qualify?
00:58:20Finally, in psychiatry.
00:58:22Last year.
00:58:25And where?
00:58:26Edinburgh University.
00:58:27Ah.
00:58:28I have an American degree as well from John Hopkins Psychiatric Hospital, Baltimore.
00:58:32And, of course, the Oxford medical degree first.
00:58:34Yes, yes, quite.
00:58:37Well, thank you, Doctor.
00:58:39Now, I'm sure you'd agree with me that the members of the jury would appreciate a little expert guidance.
00:58:44Well, I don't know if I'm the person to give it to them or not.
00:58:47Don't you consider yourself an expert?
00:58:49Well, no.
00:58:50Not in legal matters, not by any means.
00:58:52Well, I didn't mean in legal matters, Doctor.
00:58:53I meant in medical ones.
00:58:54As, for instance, well, let's put it very simply.
00:58:57Is your patient, Mr. Barton, responding to treatment?
00:59:01Sorry, I don't know what that means.
00:59:04Oh, well, forgive me.
00:59:04I'll try again.
00:59:06In your opinion, since he began receiving treatment from you, has Mr. Barton improved?
00:59:11Would you say his perversion shows signs of being cured?
00:59:19I'm sorry.
00:59:21I'm not trying to be difficult, but, you see, you are using words in a totally different way to that in which they're used in psychiatry.
00:59:27Well, then, do please assist us, Doctor.
00:59:29Instruct us so we don't continue under misapprehension.
00:59:32Like what, for example?
00:59:33Please give an instance.
00:59:34Well, there are several in what little has already been said.
00:59:36To begin with, I don't think any psychiatrist would agree with you using the word perversion
00:59:41to describe feelings of sexual attraction towards young children by an adult.
00:59:45Very well, then, let's just stick to the word sickness.
00:59:47Is that all right?
00:59:48Oh, no, definitely not.
00:59:50It's not a perversion.
00:59:51It's not a sickness.
00:59:52What is it, then, normal?
00:59:53No, no, no.
00:59:54But, you see, in psychiatric terminology, perverted isn't the opposite of normal and nor is sick.
01:00:00Now, to begin with, a perversion is usually taken to mean a preferred form of behaviour.
01:00:06And as Mr. Barton certainly doesn't prefer to be as he is, and would much sooner be different,
01:00:10he can't therefore be called a pervert.
01:00:14Deviant, I suppose, would be more accurate.
01:00:16Of course, whether deviants is a sickness or not is really very doubtful.
01:00:19Secondly, I'm sorry, shall I go on?
01:00:25Oh, please.
01:00:27Well, I was going to say, then, there's the word normal, because, you see, one person doesn't
01:00:30know, even if he's a doctor or if he isn't, exactly what the next person means by it.
01:00:35I think what all psychiatrists would agree on is, as a colleague of mine said in a book
01:00:39recently, the normal man is a very dark horse indeed.
01:00:43So, what I'm getting around to, you see, is that if we are not even understanding one
01:00:47another when we say normal, then it's very difficult to know what we mean by a concept
01:00:51such as cure, if you see what I mean.
01:00:53No, I don't think I do.
01:00:55But what I do now certainly see is why you said you didn't think you could be of much
01:01:00assistance to the jury, and I'm sure they'd agree with you.
01:01:02However, doctor, if I may be allowed to put one final question to you.
01:01:06By all means, yes.
01:01:07Well, I hope you'll try to understand its meaning and answer it understandably.
01:01:10It's this.
01:01:11In your opinion, is the accused, Mr. Barton, a truthful or untruthful person?
01:01:19On the whole.
01:01:21Truthful in what way?
01:01:22If that man said that he had done something...
01:01:28No, no, if you'll forgive me, I'll start again.
01:01:30If that man there said that he had not done something, from your experience as a psychiatrist
01:01:36and your experience of him as a patient, would you believe him?
01:01:41Well, what I believe would be totally irrelevant.
01:01:43Oh, so that you would not be prepared to say that in the generally accepted sense of the
01:01:48term, he is a particularly truthful person?
01:01:51Well, the gracious no.
01:01:53Neither particularly truthful nor particularly untruthful.
01:01:56It's a completely meaningless thing to say.
01:01:58Thank you, Dr. Allen.
01:02:01Mr. Nisbet.
01:02:05I don't wish to re-examine.
01:02:07Thank you, my lord.
01:02:07Thank you, doctor.
01:02:14That is the defence's case, my lord.
01:02:19Ladies and gentlemen of the jury.
01:02:21At the beginning of this trial, I said to you that this was just a perfectly ordinary,
01:02:27simple case.
01:02:28And with all due respect to my learned friend from the defence, despite all his attempts
01:02:32to turn it into something different, I submit to you that that it, well, that's what it still
01:02:36is and has fundamentally remained.
01:02:38The accused is charged with inciting two boys to commit an act or acts of indecency with him.
01:02:47Did he or didn't he?
01:02:48It's just as simple as that.
01:02:50Did he or did he not?
01:02:52Now, members of the jury, as I'm sure you know, it's not my job to secure a conviction.
01:02:56It is my job to put before you the facts on which the prosecution is based so that you
01:03:02can then decide whether those facts are in themselves sufficient to convince you of the accused's guilt.
01:03:08Facts.
01:03:10Not sentiment, not emotion, not sympathy or pity for someone who cannot help what he is or how
01:03:18he has behaved, but simply the facts concerning the behaviour with which he is now charged.
01:03:24Now, they are simple, aren't they?
01:03:27While the two schoolboys, Geoffrey Gibson and Martin Clark, were looking for their lost 50-pence piece
01:03:32in the grass near the bushes, a man approached them and made an indecent suggestion to them.
01:03:38They heard what he said clearly and they saw him standing there clearly, in broad daylight,
01:03:42just a few yards away.
01:03:45Very creditably, they ran and found a policeman and complained to him, and this policeman asked
01:03:49him to come with him and one of his colleagues to search amongst the fairground stalls nearby
01:03:54to see if they could pick the man out.
01:03:57Members of the jury, they did pick out and identify the man, this man, the accused.
01:04:04Now, for some reason which I find obscure, play has been made with the speed with which
01:04:10this identification was made, as though that in some way cast doubt on its reliability.
01:04:16Well, I'm sure most people would say, as I do, that this speed does the exact opposite, doesn't it?
01:04:21Makes it not less likely to be true, but more.
01:04:23They needed only one glance, that's all, to identify him.
01:04:27With respect to the defence, the fact that the man they picked out already had a string
01:04:31of convictions for similar offences is neither here nor there.
01:04:35You see, it's been suggested that in some way or another, one of the policemen hinted
01:04:41to the boys that one man was a likely candidate.
01:04:44Well, the police emphatically deny this.
01:04:47And the evidence of the second of the two boys to be called, Martin Clarke, members of the jury.
01:04:54Did he strike you as someone who was likely to be influenced into something he wasn't sure
01:04:59of, by anyone?
01:05:00Well, in conclusion, may I remind you also just of this, that it was the defence's own witness,
01:05:08Dr. Allen, who said that to claim that someone, anyone, was a particularly truthful person,
01:05:15more so than the next man, was, in his own phrase, completely meaningless.
01:05:20I'm sure you'll not forget that when you're weighing up in your minds, as you must do soon,
01:05:26whether to believe the accused or that young boy.
01:05:31Members of the jury, should you, by any regrettable mischance, bring in a verdict of guilty,
01:05:43the accused will go straight to prison, his treatment by Dr. Allen, which is his one hope
01:05:49in life, will come to an end, and the whole dreary, meaningless process...
01:05:53Mr. Nesbitt, that is an improper observation.
01:05:56In the event of a verdict of guilty, it is I, not the jury, who will decide what the sentence
01:06:02will be.
01:06:04With respect, my lord, I'm drawing the jury's attention to the matter of the accused already
01:06:09being under suspended sentence of imprisonment, and that will automatically come into operation,
01:06:14should the verdict...
01:06:15Mr. Nesbitt, I'm going to instruct the jury to ignore your remarks on this subject.
01:06:19Do I make myself clear?
01:06:21Our lord.
01:06:21Members of the jury, I hope I have made it plain in the evidence I have brought before
01:06:28you that you're being asked to believe in the honesty of a man who has throughout spoken
01:06:34consistently in a painfully direct and straightforward way.
01:06:39You've heard the phrase used, members of the jury, by a prison visitor, by somebody who knows
01:06:44exactly what he's talking about, that the sexual offender against children in prison is considered
01:06:51to be the lowest of the low.
01:06:53And I venture to suggest that it is not only and entirely in prison that such an attitude
01:06:59exists.
01:06:59There is something, let us be entirely frank about it, there is something about the subject
01:07:04of offences against children that arouses in us the feelings of the utmost revulsion.
01:07:12So basic and so fundamental, in fact, that they could fairly be described as being of a
01:07:17primitive, even instinctive nature.
01:07:19We can hardly bring ourselves to contemplate them, let alone begin to be rational about them.
01:07:24And nor would I even suggest that we should.
01:07:27All I ask is that we recognise these feelings of ours as a fact.
01:07:34Are you going to say to him then that in being honest he ensures that he receives less than
01:07:40justice?
01:07:42That in refusing to hide anything he is making a terrible, catastrophic mistake?
01:07:49For what has he revealed about himself?
01:07:51What has he insisted that you should know?
01:07:53That he is a burglar, that he is a safe blower, a bank robber even?
01:07:58No.
01:07:59Not that he is one of these, what might almost be called, respectable offenders, but that
01:08:04he was and is, members of the jury, a member of that group of offenders which society considers
01:08:10to be in prison, as well as out of it, the lowest of the low.
01:08:14What the defendant asks is that he be given no more nor less than any other man, but the
01:08:23same, the same as any other person, which in this case can surely be nothing other than
01:08:31the benefit of the doubt.
01:08:32Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, quite by coincidence, I just happened to be browsing
01:08:45through some books in my library at home last night after dinner, when I saw quoted in one
01:08:50of them some words which I thought might well be appropriate in this case.
01:08:54They were spoken by one of my brother judges, who died only a year or two ago after a long
01:08:59and most distinguished career, in the course of what I believe was a lecture he gave to
01:09:04some young members of the legal profession.
01:09:09A jury, he said, is twelve ordinary citizens with probably little or no training in consecutive
01:09:15thought.
01:09:17They will be largely, if not entirely, asswayed by emotion, but they will pride themselves
01:09:23on being susceptible only to strict logic.
01:09:27Well, ladies and gentlemen, it's scarcely necessary for me to tell you, since I've chosen to read
01:09:32those words to you, that they seem to me to be, from my own experience, at least, almost
01:09:38the exact opposite of what I have found.
01:09:43But I go out of my way to draw your attention to them, because there have been moments in
01:09:47this trial when I felt that strong and continuous efforts were being made to obscure what you're
01:09:53here to consider, which is whether or not the prosecution prove their case, and attempt
01:09:59you to reach your verdict on the basis of your feelings, rather than on your powers of rational
01:10:04thought.
01:10:05Now, I'm sure it's not necessary for that to be emphasised, but I do just mention it.
01:10:11In this, as in any other case, members of the jury, you must lay aside your feelings,
01:10:17and I mean all your feelings of all kinds.
01:10:21You must not, and I'm sure that you will not, allow your verdict to be influenced by such
01:10:27things as whether you find the accused to be an unattractive personality towards whom
01:10:32you feel marked antipathy, or, on the other hand, whether you find him a sympathetic figure
01:10:38who arouses your sympathy and compassion.
01:10:40You must not, and I'm sure you will not, nor, in taking into account what weight you should
01:10:47give to what was said by witnesses, must you allow yourselves to be influenced for or against
01:10:55them by their manner, their demeanour, their way of speaking, their clothes, their general
01:11:00appearance, or anything else.
01:11:02Just as I'm sure that it's not necessary for me to add, either, that you must not base
01:11:07your verdict on whether you prefer counsel for the prosecution to counsel for the defence,
01:11:13or vice versa.
01:11:15Remember only what was said.
01:11:19Do not give too much weight, unless you think it is very significant, as to how it was said
01:11:24or by whom.
01:11:27Of course, these things are important, but they're not the nub of the matter.
01:11:30What is, is your consideration of the facts.
01:11:37And these I shall now briefly recapitulate for you.
01:11:44The prisoner will stand.
01:11:54Members of the jury, will your foreman please stand?
01:11:58Please answer these questions, yes or no.
01:12:03Have you reached a verdict on which you are all agreed?
01:12:05Yes.
01:12:07On the first count of inciting a child to commit an act of gross indecency, do you find the
01:12:12defendant, Reginald Barton, guilty or not guilty?
01:12:15Guilty.
01:12:17On the second count of inciting a child to commit an act of gross indecency, do you find the
01:12:22accused guilty or not guilty?
01:12:25Guilty.
01:12:28No
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