- 8 months ago
Wot, no Janacek? No intro theme with this one, bizarrely. Introverted, middle-aged bachelor Leslie Simon (Derek Smith) and outgoing teenager Barry Gems (Gerry Sundquist) seem worlds apart but an encounter between them in a park's public toilet late on a Saturday night left Mr. Simon badly injured. Gems is accused of Grievous Bodily Harm.
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TVTranscript
00:00:00The case you're about to see in the characters portrayed are fictional, but the procedure is
00:00:09legally accurate. The characters are played by actors, but the jury is selected from members
00:00:14of the general public. Barry Gems is in court today, charged with causing grievous bodily harm
00:00:19to Leslie Simon in the gentleman's public lavatory in Alexandra Park, Fulchester, on the night of
00:00:24February the 17th. As a result of the head injuries he received, Leslie Simon was detained in hospital
00:00:29for several days, but how did he come to receive these injuries?
00:00:38Mr Simon, will you take your mind back to the night of February the 17th, a Saturday? Do you
00:00:46recall that day? Yes, it was when? Yes, I know that it must be very painful for you to relive
00:00:54these events. Yes, but that's all right. On that Saturday, I went for a walk in the park.
00:01:04Yes. Why did you decide to go for a walk on that particular evening? Well, I just wanted
00:01:10to go for a walk, get some fresh air, stretch my legs. I'd been cooped up in the shop all
00:01:16day, the shop I work in. I had to get out. Didn't want to go to bed, didn't feel too well,
00:01:24I didn't think I'd sleep. Do you often walk in the park? Quite often. I like it there.
00:01:31Yes. And how long did you walk about for? An hour. Walked round the pond, sat on a seat. About an hour.
00:01:40So, what time would it be when you went into the public lavatory? Just gone 12 o'clock.
00:01:48And why did you go there? Well, I felt I needed to go. Yes. Now, Mr Simon, as you stand there
00:01:59under oath, will you tell the court if that is the only reason, the sole reason, that you
00:02:05went into the public laboratory in Alexandra Park? Yes, it is. Thank you. I'm sorry it
00:02:13was necessary to embarrass you in that way. Now then, while you were in there, did somebody
00:02:21else come in? Yes. And can you see that person here? Yes, him. Mr James. And how long had you
00:02:31been in the toilet when he came in? Well, just a few minutes. And where were you? I was in a
00:02:37cubicle. I was just going to come out. Did you see James come in? No, but I heard him talking.
00:02:45First, I thought it was... There must have been two of them, but then I realised he was talking
00:02:50to himself. Loud enough for you to hear the words? Not all. It was slurred. There was a lot
00:02:57of swearing. I knew he was angry, but he was making threats. Threats? To you? No. He didn't
00:03:06know I was there. It was just some woman, I thought. He called her a... a bitch. And why
00:03:13were you afraid that he would see you? Well, because of how he sounded. I thought if I kept
00:03:20quiet, that was the best way of keeping out of trouble. Yes. And that was what you wanted
00:03:24to do, to keep out of trouble. Yes. Oh, yes. Yes. Now, Mr Simon, you were in the cubicle,
00:03:32keeping quiet. So, how was it that the accused saw you? Well, I waited for a bit. It was very
00:03:39cold. I wanted to go home. It went quiet. I'd hoped he'd gone, but I couldn't be sure. I
00:03:48didn't know what to do. So I looked. How did you look? Well, over the door. Just a peep,
00:03:58but he saw me. He told me to come out. But when I did, he grabbed hold of me. How did he
00:04:05grab hold of you? Well, he held me arms. Tight, here. So I couldn't get away. So I'd listen
00:04:15to do the things he said. What kind of things? Oh, nasty things. Horrible. About me, he said
00:04:26I was perverted. He wanted to be nasty. I think he wanted to take it out of somebody. He was
00:04:34enjoying himself. It was horrible. He was shaking. And how long did this go on for, this taunting?
00:04:42Oh, I'm not sure. It seemed a long time, three or four minutes. Yes. What happened after that?
00:04:51Well, after a bit, he asked me why I was watching him. I said I wasn't watching him, and suddenly
00:04:57he put his knee up into my stomach. I cried out. Then he hit me. He hit you?
00:05:05With his fist. On my chest. I couldn't breathe. Then he pushed me.
00:05:16And that was how you came to fall?
00:05:19Well, it must have been, I suppose so. I don't remember anything else till I woke up in hospital.
00:05:24Now, Mr. Simon, I don't want, and I'm sure that the court wouldn't want to make you dwell
00:05:31any more than is absolutely necessary on an occasion that has caused you great pain,
00:05:38and not just physically, something that has left its mark on you. But I just want to ask
00:05:44you, just so that we can all be quite clear about it, did you in any way, on the night
00:05:49of February the 17th, make advances of a homosexual nature to this young man?
00:05:57No.
00:06:01Thank you very much. That'll be all, Mr. Simon.
00:06:04My lad.
00:06:13You live alone, Mr. Simon?
00:06:15Yes.
00:06:16How long have you lived alone?
00:06:19For a year, since my mother died.
00:06:21I see. So you spent the evening in question, on your own, feeling rather lonely?
00:06:27Yes, I was.
00:06:28Now, do you remember what the weather was like that evening?
00:06:32I think it was rather cold.
00:06:34Yes, it was. The temperature was just above freezing, as you say, rather cold.
00:06:38Rather a strange night to choose to go for a walk, wasn't it?
00:06:41Well, it was cold.
00:06:43Unless you had a reason.
00:06:44Well, I wanted to buy some brandy, too.
00:06:48I didn't think I'd sleep.
00:06:49I didn't feel too well.
00:06:51It was for my stomach.
00:06:53My mother always kept some in the house.
00:06:54I see.
00:06:55How much brandy did you buy?
00:06:56A bottle.
00:06:57Wasn't that rather a lot for a stomachache?
00:07:00Oh, I always buy a bottle.
00:07:02It's cheaper like that.
00:07:03In the long run.
00:07:04Now, what time was it when you bought this bottle of brandy?
00:07:07Oh, just before they should.
00:07:09The off-license, I mean.
00:07:11It must have been about up as ten, I suppose.
00:07:13And what time was it when you went into the public toilets in Alexandra Park?
00:07:18Well, I'm not sure.
00:07:19I wasn't thinking of the time.
00:07:21I knew it was night time, but they said twelve o'clock.
00:07:28And did you open the bottle of brandy in the one and a half hours between buying it and going into these public toilets?
00:07:35Yes, I did.
00:07:36And did you drink some of it?
00:07:38A drop.
00:07:40How?
00:07:41Did you have a glass with you?
00:07:42Oh, no, I hadn't meant to.
00:07:44I just meant to buy it.
00:07:45I was going to go home.
00:07:46Yes, that's right.
00:07:47You were going to go home because you weren't feeling very well.
00:07:50But you didn't go home, did you, Mr Simon?
00:07:52You hung about Alexandra Park for one and a half hours.
00:07:57It's rather odd behaviour, isn't it?
00:08:00Well, I wasn't that ill.
00:08:01Just queasy.
00:08:03Nervous.
00:08:03I've got a nervous stomach.
00:08:07Going home just made it worse.
00:08:09Just sitting there.
00:08:11Sometimes I have to get out.
00:08:14So instead you drank the brandy.
00:08:16Now, have you any idea how much brandy you drank?
00:08:19Two or three sips.
00:08:21Yes, and then you went into the toilets.
00:08:23Now, Mr Simon, have you ever been in these toilets before?
00:08:27Well, yes, whenever I've been in the park.
00:08:29That's not quite what I meant.
00:08:31I meant, have you ever been in there alone late at night?
00:08:35No.
00:08:36Did you know, Mr Simon, that that toilet in that park is a well-known haunt for homosexuals?
00:08:46No.
00:08:47You didn't?
00:08:48Well, it was quite well-known, you know.
00:08:51And we should have witness to say so.
00:08:53Now, whilst you were there, buried gems came in.
00:08:56Yes.
00:08:57Now, you were in this cubicle, Mr Simon.
00:09:01How high was the door, in relation to yourself, I mean?
00:09:03Well, I suppose, six foot, about here.
00:09:13About here?
00:09:16How, then, were you able to look over the top of the door?
00:09:19Well, I, I, I, I climbed up.
00:09:23To look over the top of the door, what did you climb onto?
00:09:27I, I, I, I climbed onto the toilet.
00:09:29I see, you climbed onto the toilet bowl, in order to see over the top of the door.
00:09:34Not a very effective hiding place, was it?
00:09:36Well, I didn't know he was there, I wanted to see if he'd gone.
00:09:39You didn't think anybody was there, on a quiet night, a quiet spot, some way from the main road.
00:09:45You didn't think anybody was there, you didn't hear any breathing, or the sound of shuffling feet.
00:09:50You must have been extraordinarily quiet, Mr Simon.
00:09:52And if you didn't think anybody was there, why bother to look at all?
00:09:57Why didn't you just walk out in the normal way, like any normal man would have done?
00:10:03Well, I was frightened.
00:10:05But you looked, stood up on the seat, looked over the door, where he saw you.
00:10:10Yes.
00:10:11Did you want him to see you?
00:10:13No.
00:10:14Did you want to see him?
00:10:17I, I just wanted to see if he was there.
00:10:19When he saw you looking at him, what did he do?
00:10:25He told me to come out.
00:10:26And did you?
00:10:28Yes.
00:10:29Yes.
00:10:31Now, the door of the cubicle was locked, I suppose you locked it when you went in there.
00:10:35Oh, yes, I had, of course I had.
00:10:36So to come out, presumably you'd have to unlock it.
00:10:39Yes, I did.
00:10:39But you needn't have done, need you?
00:10:41If you were frightened, I mean, the lock was simply a sort of a safeguard, you might say.
00:10:46Yet, you quite voluntarily unlocked the door.
00:10:49Well, he told me to.
00:10:52And do you always do what people tell you to?
00:10:56Yes, I suppose I do.
00:10:58Well, not always.
00:11:00Only when you want to.
00:11:02Sometimes.
00:11:03Depends.
00:11:04And presumably on this occasion, you wanted to.
00:11:07I feel that my learned friend is confusing the witness.
00:11:10Mr. Simon has already stated quite plainly that he was anxious and afraid.
00:11:14Yes, what is the point you're trying to make, Mr. Arroyo?
00:11:16My Lord, I'm trying to establish who made the first move.
00:11:20My client will testify that it was Simon who took the initiative in approaching him.
00:11:24That he, in fact, made a homosexual advance towards him and that it was not at all the case, as the prosecution seems to be suggesting, that my client dragged this man unwillingly from his hiding place.
00:11:35Yes, I see.
00:11:36Very well.
00:11:37Thank you, my Lord.
00:11:38What happened when you came out of the cubicle?
00:11:42I've said what happened.
00:11:42I don't want to say it again.
00:11:44Did you say anything to him?
00:11:46I don't remember.
00:11:47Only my client, Mr. James, will tell the court that he does remember.
00:11:51That he remembers what you said and what you did.
00:11:53I just thought you might like to give the court your version of what happened first.
00:11:58I don't like remembering.
00:11:59He said I was watching him, that I liked watching him.
00:12:08He asked me if I did.
00:12:10And what did you say?
00:12:14I said yes.
00:12:16You said yes?
00:12:18Yes.
00:12:20You said yes.
00:12:22So you were hiding there in order to watch him?
00:12:25No.
00:12:26But, Mr. Simon, you've just told the court that you told my client that you wanted to look at him.
00:12:31I didn't mean that.
00:12:32I was frightened.
00:12:34Whatever you meant, Mr. Simon, or now say that you meant, it was what you said that Mr. James acted upon.
00:12:39He took your words at face value.
00:12:42In short, Mr. Simon, he supposed that you were making homosexual advances towards him.
00:12:47And when you came out of that cubicle, you did absolutely nothing to dispel that idea.
00:12:53Quite the contrary, in fact.
00:12:54Well, I wanted to say what he wanted me to say.
00:12:59He kept on saying things.
00:13:01He was holding me, hitting me, shouting.
00:13:03After you made your distasteful advances.
00:13:06But I didn't.
00:13:08Now, you say my client held you by the upper arms.
00:13:11Why did he do that?
00:13:13To make me listen.
00:13:14Did he hold you at arm's length or near to him?
00:13:18Oh, at arm's length.
00:13:19I see, at arm's length, holding you away from him.
00:13:21Yes.
00:13:22Away from him, so you couldn't touch him, to keep you at a distance.
00:13:25Well, he wouldn't let me go.
00:13:25So that you couldn't get near to him.
00:13:29Now then, this fall, was the floor slippery?
00:13:33Yes.
00:13:34Slippery enough to cause you to fall when my client pushed you away?
00:13:38Oh, he pushed me harder than that.
00:13:42He hit me.
00:13:43He wanted to hurt me.
00:13:45Mr. Simon, I am suggesting that your fall was an accident and that you brought it upon yourself.
00:13:51That, in fact, you made homosexual advances to my client and you fell as he tried to stop you molesting him.
00:13:58What was it that drew your attention, Constable Collins, to the toilets?
00:14:13I was keeping a bit of an eye open anyway.
00:14:15That's routine.
00:14:16When I heard shouting.
00:14:18So I got out of the car to investigate.
00:14:20That's 12.15am, sir.
00:14:22Why is it routine to...
00:14:23Potentially a homosexual's meeting place.
00:14:29The place was known for that kind of thing?
00:14:32Oh, yes, sir.
00:14:32We've brought cases.
00:14:33And these cases, they've been reported in the paper, where anybody might have read about them?
00:14:38Yes, sir.
00:14:39And when you arrived at the toilets, what did you see?
00:14:42I found the accused coming out.
00:14:44He was almost running.
00:14:45And he was followed by a gentleman, Mr. Sterling Maxwell.
00:14:49Mr. Sterling Maxwell will be called as a witness for the defence, my lord.
00:14:53Thank you, Mr. Arlen.
00:14:54What kind of state was Jem's in?
00:14:57He was agitated.
00:14:59He seemed to have been drinking.
00:15:00He was swearing a lot.
00:15:01At you?
00:15:02He did swear at me, yes.
00:15:04He called me an interfering bastard.
00:15:06A pig.
00:15:07Told me to go away.
00:15:09Hit out when I tried to restrain him.
00:15:10Assaulted you?
00:15:11He missed.
00:15:13Luckily for him.
00:15:14You were in uniform at the time?
00:15:17Yes, sir.
00:15:17So he knew you were a police officer?
00:15:19That is correct.
00:15:20It's hardly the behaviour one might expect from an innocent young man who's just been involved in an accident, is it?
00:15:25I think you're making a speech, Mr. Gabbard.
00:15:27It's not time for that yet.
00:15:33On hearing there was a third person involved, I asked both the men to accompany me back into the toilets.
00:15:38And did either of them object?
00:15:40He said, you're not getting me in there.
00:15:45And he tried to break away again.
00:15:47I see.
00:15:47But in the end, you managed to get him back to the toilets.
00:15:50After a bit of persuasion.
00:15:52The three of us entered the toilets together.
00:15:55Mr. Leslie Simon was lying on the floor.
00:15:57There was blood on his head.
00:15:59And he appeared to be unconscious.
00:16:01I asked Jem's what had happened.
00:16:03And he said, I didn't mean to hurt him that bad.
00:16:06I didn't think anything would happen.
00:16:07And Mr. Maxwell said, he was making advances.
00:16:11You can't blame the lad.
00:16:12Now, Maxwell said that.
00:16:14It wasn't Jem's.
00:16:15Did Jem's himself say anything about Leslie Simon making advances to him?
00:16:19Not at that point.
00:16:20Not until later.
00:16:22I see.
00:16:23So, so far as you know, that was Maxwell's suggestion.
00:16:27He was the one who said it, sir, yes.
00:16:28And Jem's said, I didn't mean to hurt him that bad.
00:16:31That is correct.
00:16:32Yes, sir, what did you do?
00:16:35In the light of what I saw, I asked Jem's to accompany me back to the car where I called
00:16:40for an ambulance.
00:16:41Mr. Simon was admitted to Forchester General Hospital and did not recover consciousness
00:16:46for until two hours later.
00:16:48I subsequently charged Jem's with this offence, cautioned him, and he made no reply.
00:16:53Thank you very much, Constable.
00:16:55Oh, a bottle of brandy.
00:16:56What about that?
00:16:57Oh, yes, sir.
00:16:58It was on the floor in a plastic carrier bag.
00:17:00It had broken in the form.
00:17:04Constable Collins, you know how old my client is, do you?
00:17:0819, I believe, sir.
00:17:09Yes, that's right, 19.
00:17:10Not very old, really, is it?
00:17:12Now, you say he was agitated, upset.
00:17:14Well, it's hardly surprising, is it?
00:17:15Young lad of his age, after the experiences he'd been through, you'd hardly expect him to
00:17:19be otherwise.
00:17:20How long have you been in the police force, Constable?
00:17:23Twelve months, sir.
00:17:24Keen to get on, are you?
00:17:25Naturally.
00:17:26And one way of getting on is to make arrests, isn't it?
00:17:29And to make those arrests stick.
00:17:32Not if you get it wrong, it isn't.
00:17:34Thank you very much, Constable.
00:17:35That'll be all.
00:17:41I call the Reverend John Millet.
00:17:44Reverend John Millet.
00:17:45Now, Mr. Millet, you are the vicar of St. James's Church, Fulchester.
00:18:02How long have you been there?
00:18:03Just over three years.
00:18:05And Mr. Simon is a parishioner of yours?
00:18:07Yes.
00:18:07Well, more than a parishioner, really.
00:18:09More a pillar of the church, you might say.
00:18:11Lay reader, member of the choir, treasurer of the mission fund.
00:18:15If all the parishioners were like him, the church would be a very thriving organisation
00:18:18indeed.
00:18:19A devout man.
00:18:21Oh, yes.
00:18:21You could say that very.
00:18:23Never misses communion.
00:18:25In Lent, sometimes, the only attender.
00:18:26We have an early weekday service once a week during Lent, 7 a.m. on Thursdays, so that
00:18:30people can come before breakfast.
00:18:32Not many do.
00:18:33I do understand your concern for the state of the church, and I sympathise with it, but
00:18:37that's not what we're here to discuss.
00:18:39Oh, absolutely right.
00:18:40So you'd say that Mr. Simon was a very committed member of your church?
00:18:46Oh, yes.
00:18:46A very active member.
00:18:48Possibly the most active.
00:18:50Almost too active.
00:18:51Yes, well, it's important to him, isn't it?
00:18:53He's a man who tries to live by Christian principles.
00:18:56Yes, I would say so.
00:18:57Hmm.
00:18:58Do you see him often?
00:18:59Yes.
00:19:00Several times a week, and three times on Sundays, as they say.
00:19:03Yes, he leads a busy life.
00:19:07Yes, well, you know how it is.
00:19:08He's a big fish in a small pond.
00:19:10Well, I suppose we all are, really.
00:19:11There's a lot to be said for it.
00:19:13Yes, indeed there is.
00:19:15Now then, Mr. Millett, in all the time that you've known him, and aware as you are of the
00:19:20things that go on in your little flock, have you ever known Mr. Simon to be involved
00:19:26in what we might call an unhealthy relationship?
00:19:29Unhealthy?
00:19:29Well, in the context of the case, I mean, does he usually...
00:19:35I mean, have you ever known Mr. Simon to be closely involved with another man?
00:19:42Leslie Simon is not the sort of man who finds it easy to form a close relationship with anybody.
00:19:47In some ways, it might be happier for him if he did.
00:19:51He keeps himself to himself.
00:19:54But if, or when, he does form a close relationship with someone of either sex,
00:19:58I shall certainly not take it upon myself to decide whether or not that relationship is healthy.
00:20:04Loving relationships are hard enough to find in this world as it is,
00:20:07without some people deciding on behalf of others what is right and what is not.
00:20:10Mr. Millett, I must remind you you're not in your pulpit now.
00:20:13You're here to answer questions put by counsel.
00:20:16Will you please concentrate on doing just that?
00:20:18But, my lord, with the utmost respect, it seems to me that there are some judgments being made in this court
00:20:22that it is not the prerogative of the court to make.
00:20:24Mr. Gavin, have you finished your examination?
00:20:26Just one question, my lord.
00:20:27Mr. Millett, have you any reason to believe that Mr. Simon has homosexual leanings?
00:20:33Yes. No, I have not.
00:20:41You say, Mr. Millett, you've known Mr. Simon for three years?
00:20:44Yes, that's right.
00:20:45So you knew him both before and after Mrs. Simon's death?
00:20:49Yes.
00:20:49Did you know the late Mrs. Simon?
00:20:51Well, yes, of course. They were a church-going family.
00:20:54Her death must have come as a great shock.
00:20:56Well, yes. To everyone.
00:20:59She was elderly, of course, but in very good health.
00:21:01Indefatigable so far as her church work was concerned.
00:21:03And it must have been a great shock to Leslie Simon as well.
00:21:07Naturally.
00:21:08They were very close.
00:21:10I believe it was he who found her dead.
00:21:12My lord, we're entering onto a ground that's very personal and very distressing to Mr. Simon.
00:21:17Is it really necessary?
00:21:18Yes. Something of the sort was in my mind.
00:21:20I don't want distress to be caused unnecessarily, Mr. Ireland.
00:21:23I'm sorry, my lord.
00:21:24My lord, the manner of Mrs. Simon's death is in no way relevant to my case, and I regret very much that it's been brought up.
00:21:29However, it is the consequence of that event that I find it necessary to examine.
00:21:34Yes, all right.
00:21:35Thank you, my lord.
00:21:37Now, at this distressing time, did you offer spiritual comfort to Mr. Simon?
00:21:42Well, naturally, I did what I could, but Mr. Simon has resources of his own.
00:21:46Resources? Do you mean friends?
00:21:48I mean he keeps his own counsel.
00:21:50He coped with his bereavement in his own way, and we must respect him for that.
00:21:54And what way was that?
00:21:55He spent a lot of time in church.
00:21:57On his own?
00:21:59Yes.
00:22:00He spent a lot of time in church on his own.
00:22:02Do you mean days and nights?
00:22:04Well, yes, sometimes he did.
00:22:06Did what, Mr. Millett?
00:22:08Spent nights alone in your church?
00:22:11Yes, once or twice when he couldn't sleep.
00:22:13I see.
00:22:14So when Mr. Simon can't sleep, he spends the night in your church.
00:22:18However, on the night of February the 17th, he goes to Alexander Park.
00:22:22I wonder what influences his decisions.
00:22:26Well, I'm afraid that might have been my fault.
00:22:28In what way?
00:22:29Well, you see, I turned him out of the church.
00:22:31I may have been wrong.
00:22:32It's not always easy to judge these things.
00:22:35You turned him out of your church?
00:22:36For what reason?
00:22:38Well, I was worried about him there on his own.
00:22:40Worried about him?
00:22:41So you turned him out of your church?
00:22:43Yes, I'm afraid so.
00:22:44Otherwise, he would have stayed there all night.
00:22:47It's rather odd behaviour, isn't it?
00:22:49The height of his grief.
00:22:51Yes, of course, I appreciate Mr. Simon's grief, Mr. Millett,
00:22:54but we are here to consider Mr. Simon's behaviour,
00:22:57especially after his mother's death,
00:22:59and in what way it is normal, and in what way it is not.
00:23:04Leslie Simon's circumstances are not what they were.
00:23:07How can they be?
00:23:08He must live on his own now, fend for himself.
00:23:11But if I'm here to talk about his character, then I'll say this.
00:23:15He was close to his mother, yes.
00:23:17He was very upset when his mother died, yes.
00:23:20But in his own way, he has managed very well.
00:23:23He's come through it.
00:23:25Leslie's not the sort of man who will ever find life easy,
00:23:28but he cares about others,
00:23:31and I respect him for that.
00:23:33And I regret that he has to appear here in this court
00:23:36and have his private life inspected
00:23:38when he is, after all, merely a victim
00:23:39and not accused of anything at all.
00:23:41Join us again tomorrow
00:24:03when the case of the Queen against Gems
00:24:05will be resumed in the Crown Court.
00:24:08The case we're about to see
00:24:24and the characters portrayed are fictional,
00:24:26but the procedure is legally accurate.
00:24:28The characters are played by actors,
00:24:30but the jury is selected from members of the general public.
00:24:33Barry Gems is accused of causing grievous bodily harm
00:24:36to Leslie Simon in the public lavatory
00:24:38in Alexandra Park, Fulchester.
00:24:41Yesterday, we heard his version of events
00:24:42in which he claims that Gems
00:24:44launched an unprovoked attack on him.
00:24:46The defence, on the other hand,
00:24:48have suggested that Simon made homosexual advances to Gems
00:24:51and was injured when he slipped and fell
00:24:53as Gems resisted these advances.
00:24:56Mrs Joyce Ricketts, Leslie's older sister,
00:24:58has just entered the witness box
00:25:00to testify on her brother's behalf.
00:25:04Now, Mrs Ricketts,
00:25:06hope we won't keep you long.
00:25:08That's all right.
00:25:09You're Mr Simon's older sister.
00:25:11Yes, there's just the two of us.
00:25:13Now, do you remember Sunday, the 18th of February?
00:25:17Yes, I do.
00:25:18You'd expected to see your brother on that day?
00:25:21Yes, at half-past twelve.
00:25:22Could you speak up a bit, Mrs Ricketts?
00:25:24I'm sure the jury couldn't hear that.
00:25:25What time did you say?
00:25:26Half-past twelve.
00:25:28He used to come straight on from church.
00:25:30It wasn't far to walk,
00:25:31only about ten minutes, to me, I mean.
00:25:34And this was a regular arrangement?
00:25:36Yes.
00:25:37Well, since Mother went.
00:25:39Now, your brother is a man of regular habits?
00:25:42Oh, yes, very regular.
00:25:43If Leslie was there, you knew it was Sunday.
00:25:46Yes.
00:25:46And you see him regularly.
00:25:49So did you, over the course of these weekly visits,
00:25:52did you notice anything strange in his behaviour?
00:25:54Oh, no, he was quite his normal self.
00:25:57And how would you describe his normal self?
00:26:00Well, quiet, regular, a bit pernickety, really.
00:26:04I mean, he could never have done a dirty job.
00:26:06That's why Mother chose the shop for him.
00:26:08It seemed more suitable, really.
00:26:10Yes, thank you, thank you.
00:26:11Keeps himself to himself.
00:26:12Oh, yes, very much so.
00:26:13Not likely to hang about in public lavatories.
00:26:16Oh, no, definitely not, never.
00:26:19He was too, er, fastidious.
00:26:22That's what Mother used to say.
00:26:24Oh, no, you'd never catch Leslie doing anything like that, never.
00:26:27Now, you seem very sure of that.
00:26:29Well, I am sure.
00:26:30I've known him all my life.
00:26:32I mean, I know him.
00:26:34No, that's not Leslie at all.
00:26:36Thank you, Mrs Ricketts.
00:26:38Now, then, I believe your brother had lived on his own since your mother died.
00:26:41Yes, well, she left the house to him.
00:26:44And you helped out?
00:26:45Yes, cleaning and clearing out cupboards and such like.
00:26:48No sign of anything odd there?
00:26:51Um, bed slept in, somebody staying the night?
00:26:55No, well, he didn't make friends in that way.
00:26:58Books?
00:26:59Magazines?
00:27:00Anything of a slightly doubtful nature?
00:27:03You know, a man living on his own?
00:27:05He didn't take magazines.
00:27:07Well, he only took the local paper once a week,
00:27:09and that was Mother's, really, and he didn't like to give it up.
00:27:11Well, you need a bit of a newspaper sometimes, don't you,
00:27:14for rubbing things in, and potato peelings and such,
00:27:17and for helping with a fire.
00:27:19But never anything you might call naughty.
00:27:22Well, I've explained to you, that wasn't Leslie at all.
00:27:24Now, Mrs Ricketts, of all the people here,
00:27:27you knew your brother better than anyone else.
00:27:31You'd known him all your life.
00:27:33You know the standards by which he was brought up.
00:27:35Now, can you believe, even understanding that he might have been lonely,
00:27:41can you believe that he might have had lascivious thoughts about a young man?
00:27:46No.
00:27:48Never.
00:27:49He'd have thought it wrong.
00:27:51That he might approach one in a public lavatory?
00:27:54Definitely not.
00:27:55Physically?
00:27:56No.
00:27:58There's something here that's wrong.
00:28:01I mean, there's Leslie.
00:28:02Wouldn't hurt a fly.
00:28:03Well, look at him.
00:28:05And beaten up by that fellow there through no fault of his own.
00:28:09And people come here and say things about him.
00:28:11A respectable man.
00:28:12Well, it's not right, and he ought to be stopped.
00:28:14Thank you, Mrs Ricketts.
00:28:15I'm sure that the jury will appreciate your feelings.
00:28:20Mrs Ricketts, I'm sure that we all appreciate your loyalty to your brother.
00:28:25You are, after all, now your mother's dead, all he's got left.
00:28:28And she was a woman, I understand, well thought of, a churchgoer, a woman with standards.
00:28:33Oh, very much so.
00:28:35So, as long as your brother lived with her, he would have to keep to the straight and narrow.
00:28:40Well, yes.
00:28:41And when your mother died, and there was nobody to keep an eye on him,
00:28:45did you notice a change in your brother's behaviour?
00:28:49Oh, no, definitely not.
00:28:51He wasn't affected at all?
00:28:53Well, of course he was affected.
00:28:55He was upset.
00:28:57Well, you'd expect it, wouldn't you?
00:28:58But he got over it.
00:29:00I mean, some people let themselves go when they're left on their own.
00:29:04But he keeps the place nice, and eats regular, and keeps up his interests.
00:29:08How often did you tell us that you visited your brother?
00:29:12Once a week, regular.
00:29:12I see.
00:29:13So for six days a week, there's nobody there to keep an eye on him, or see what he gets up to.
00:29:18Oh, we know what he gets up to.
00:29:20He's not one for gutting about.
00:29:22Was your brother, Mrs Ricketts, in the habit of taking strong drink?
00:29:27Drink?
00:29:28Oh, you mean beer and such like?
00:29:30Oh, no, never.
00:29:32Well, perhaps a little sip of cherry brandy at New Year.
00:29:34Yes, I was specifically thinking of spirits.
00:29:38Brandy, in fact.
00:29:39Oh, no, no, never.
00:29:41Not Leslie.
00:29:42Oh, unless he had a cold, or a bad stomach, or something like that.
00:29:47My mother used to keep a little bottle of brandy in the medicine cupboard.
00:29:50She'd give it to us with water, on a lump of sugar.
00:29:52Mrs Ricketts, are you aware that on the night of February the 17th, your brother went out
00:29:57and bought a bottle of brandy?
00:30:01Not a half bottle, but a whole bottle.
00:30:03Well, yes, they told me.
00:30:05Well, he had a bad stomach.
00:30:06And in the dark, alone, in the park, without so much as a glass, not to mention a water or a lump of sugar,
00:30:17he drank some brandy.
00:30:18Yes, well, if he was bad.
00:30:21If he was bad, Mrs Ricketts, if he was bad, why didn't he go home, have a hot drink, fill a hot water bottle, and go to bed?
00:30:30Well, I don't know.
00:30:32He was, uh, moody.
00:30:34Well, because that's what you would expect him to do, if, judging by what you've told us about him.
00:30:40Yes, I suppose.
00:30:41And I suppose that is what would have happened if your mother had been alive and he had been unwell.
00:30:47Well, yes, it would have been different, wouldn't it, if she'd been there?
00:30:51I mean, it's not nice living on your own, going back to an empty house.
00:30:55Well, how would you like it?
00:30:56But you've just told the court, Mrs Ricketts, that after your mother's death, you didn't notice any change in your brother's behaviour.
00:31:02It didn't change, really. I mean, he wasn't well.
00:31:08On his own, with nobody to look after him, nobody to keep an eye on him, to know where he went or when he came.
00:31:16Nobody, we might say, to keep him on the straight and narrow.
00:31:20He's a quiet boy.
00:31:22Yes, well, unfortunately, Mrs Ricketts, we don't know how much brandy he drank, because the bottle was broken when he fell.
00:31:30No more questions, my lord.
00:31:32Shall we examine, Mr Gavin?
00:31:34Yes, my lord.
00:31:35Mrs Ricketts, have you ever known your brother the worst for drink?
00:31:40No, never.
00:31:42They don't understand him. Leslie wasn't like that.
00:31:46Have you ever known him involved in violence?
00:31:50No.
00:31:51Well, he was always a bit soft, really.
00:31:53I mean, even when he was a lad, I mean, he'd run away.
00:31:56Well, you can understand it with him being so little, and the other kids would pick on him.
00:32:00Like that one did.
00:32:02Have you ever known him involved in sexual practices?
00:32:05Leslie, that's impossible.
00:32:07I mean, he didn't like that side of life, even to talk about, even between married people.
00:32:14I mean, he could never have got married.
00:32:16He's too above it.
00:32:19He could never do anything like that.
00:32:28Now, your name is Barry Jones.
00:32:30Yeah, that's me name.
00:32:32You know what it is you're being charged with?
00:32:34Yes, with, uh, with bashing him.
00:32:39I never did.
00:32:40It was an accident.
00:32:41And that, Mr James, is for the jury to decide.
00:32:44Thank you, Your Honor.
00:32:47Now then, Barry, I believe you're 19 years of age.
00:32:51Yes, that's right, Mr Ireland.
00:32:52Now, you live at home, and you work for the Merrow Engineering Company Limited.
00:32:57Yes.
00:32:58How long have you worked there?
00:32:59Since I left school.
00:33:01Me dad got me in.
00:33:01Ah, following in father's footsteps.
00:33:04A local lad.
00:33:06I suppose you could say that, yeah.
00:33:08Now, are you close to your family?
00:33:10Well, yeah, they're all right.
00:33:12At any rate, you're happy to be living at home?
00:33:14Well, it's better than Diggs.
00:33:16It's cheaper.
00:33:17And they get me dinners.
00:33:18Yes, from your mother.
00:33:20Tell me, Barry, have you ever thought of getting married?
00:33:22Yeah, I suppose so, one day.
00:33:26Everybody does, don't they?
00:33:27Well, not everybody, no.
00:33:29But you'd like to, at the right time.
00:33:31Um, I'm sure we're all enjoying this everyday tale of family life.
00:33:36Makes a charming story.
00:33:37But I do wonder if we have the time.
00:33:38Um, my lord, I'm trying to paint a picture for the jury of the kind of young man this is.
00:33:45It seems to me important that his version of what happened on the night of February the 17th
00:33:50should be seen in its appropriate context,
00:33:52so that your jury should fully understand his reactions.
00:33:57Yes, I can see that the character and intentions of Mr. Jones is relevant,
00:34:00but perhaps we don't need too detailed a picture, Mr. Ireland.
00:34:03Thank you, my lord.
00:34:05Now then, Barry, if we could come to the night of February the 17th,
00:34:09what did you do that evening?
00:34:11I was in the pub, the, uh, Glover's Arms.
00:34:14No law against that, is there?
00:34:15No, indeed there isn't.
00:34:16Otherwise, we'd all be very much busier than we are.
00:34:20Do you always go to the pub on Saturday?
00:34:23Always.
00:34:24What would your normal consumption of beer be on a Saturday?
00:34:29Oh, I'd say, uh, about, uh, six or seven pints.
00:34:34Hmm, and how much beer do you suppose you drank on the night in question?
00:34:38Oh, about the same.
00:34:40That didn't count.
00:34:41Would you say that when you left the pub, you were fully in charge of yourself?
00:34:45Oh, yeah, I was just happy, you know.
00:34:48And where did you go when you left the pub?
00:34:50Well, uh, I walked round.
00:34:52And then, uh, stood on the corner, had a laugh and a joke.
00:34:55With your friends?
00:34:55Yeah.
00:34:56You have a lot of friends?
00:34:58Circle of friends?
00:34:59Yeah, fair number, yeah.
00:35:01And it was after you left your friends that you went into the park?
00:35:04That's right.
00:35:05Why did you go in the park?
00:35:08Well, um, as a matter of fact, I wanted to go for, um, you know, the beer.
00:35:15Oh, I see.
00:35:15You wanted to go to the toilet.
00:35:16That's it.
00:35:18And what happened when you got there?
00:35:20Well, you know what I went for.
00:35:22And how did you come to see Mr. Simon?
00:35:24Well, it was like this, see.
00:35:26I was just standing there, minding me own business, you might say.
00:35:30Anyway, it was quiet.
00:35:31And I heard this, this kind of snuffling noise behind me.
00:35:34Well, I thought it was a dog or something.
00:35:36I didn't know there was anybody else there.
00:35:38Not until I saw him, that is.
00:35:40You saw Mr. Simon?
00:35:42That's right, him.
00:35:43How did you see him?
00:35:45He was staring at me, wasn't he?
00:35:47Over the top of the door.
00:35:49He thought I wouldn't notice, but I did.
00:35:52Goggle-eyed he was.
00:35:53And what did you do?
00:35:55I told him to come out.
00:35:57What do you think you're playing at, I said.
00:35:59Was he reluctant to come out?
00:36:02Reluctant?
00:36:03Come right out, he did.
00:36:04Just like that.
00:36:05And came up close to you?
00:36:06Right next to me.
00:36:07Now, did he say anything or do anything when he came out?
00:36:12Came right up close to you?
00:36:13Do anything?
00:36:14I'll say he did.
00:36:16Well, watching me for a start.
00:36:18Now, the way he watched me, well, it wasn't very nice.
00:36:23And then coming up to me like he did.
00:36:25Well, I've heard of blokes like him in places like that.
00:36:27I knew what he bloody wanted.
00:36:30Well, I'm not like him.
00:36:32Rotten queer.
00:36:37My lord, I protest.
00:36:41Is this witness permitted to make unproved and offensive allegations against the character of my client?
00:36:47I said he was a queer, because that's what he is.
00:36:49No, he's not.
00:36:49Look, Mr. James, you must keep your opinions to yourself.
00:36:52You're here to give evidence, not opinions.
00:36:54But it is evidence.
00:36:55That's what he did.
00:36:56He come up to me.
00:36:57I know that's what you say.
00:36:58And, of course, you can tell the court what you say happened.
00:37:01But you mustn't extend that to general opinions.
00:37:04Answer the counsel's questions as directly as you can.
00:37:06Yes, sir.
00:37:08Thank you, my lord.
00:37:10Now, Mr. James, we were considering Mr. Simons approached you when he stood near to you.
00:37:16What did you do?
00:37:18Well, I was disgusted.
00:37:20I said, uh, I said, get away from me, you little, uh, something like that.
00:37:25Now, can you remember the exact words?
00:37:29I don't know.
00:37:30I think so.
00:37:31Yes, you can repeat anything that was said on that occasion.
00:37:34Go on.
00:37:34I said, get away from me, you little puff.
00:37:37Well, that's what I thought.
00:37:39Now, you thought he was a homosexual making homosexual advances to you.
00:37:44I'm bloody sure he was.
00:37:46How did you feel about these advances?
00:37:48I was disgusted.
00:37:50It makes me feel sick to think about it.
00:37:54Things like that.
00:37:56So, when you stood in this public laboratory, disgusted by what was happening, what did you do to avoid it?
00:38:03I pushed him away, didn't I?
00:38:04You pushed him away, instinctively?
00:38:08Yeah.
00:38:09Hard?
00:38:10I don't know.
00:38:12I didn't mean to.
00:38:13I just wanted to stop him.
00:38:16I was just doing what come natural.
00:38:17Yes, of course.
00:38:19A natural reaction.
00:38:21Now, after you put out your hands to stop him, what happened then?
00:38:26Well, that's when it happened.
00:38:29He fell.
00:38:30He slipped on the floor.
00:38:32Yes.
00:38:32Now, Barry, had you any reason to suppose that the strength you used in defending yourself would result in the kind of injuries that Mr. Simon, in fact, received?
00:38:45No, I didn't.
00:38:47I just put me hand up to stop him.
00:38:50Well, anybody would have done that, wouldn't they?
00:38:52Thank you very much, Mr. Jones.
00:38:55Now, then, you say that Mr. Simon was hurt.
00:38:59What did you do?
00:39:00Well, I sort of stood there.
00:39:03And then I thought, I'd better get some help.
00:39:06Well, I was just going to get some help when that chap, Mr. Maxwell, came in.
00:39:10And what did you do when you saw Mr. Maxwell?
00:39:13Oh, I was glad.
00:39:14It was somebody to help, to see what had happened, get the police and get him to hospital.
00:39:18But your concern at this moment was for Mr. Simon?
00:39:21Of course it was.
00:39:22I was worried, I can tell you.
00:39:23When police constable Collins came and you accompanied him back into the toilet, he says, you said, I didn't mean to hurt him that bad.
00:39:35Now, is that true?
00:39:37It must be, if he says so.
00:39:39What did you mean?
00:39:41What I said.
00:39:42I didn't mean to hurt him that bad.
00:39:44Just a push.
00:39:45Now, Mr. Gems, did you at any time do anything more than just push Leslie Simon?
00:39:54Did you shake him?
00:39:55Did you put your knee into his stomach?
00:39:58Did you punch him on the chest?
00:40:01What, me?
00:40:01Never.
00:40:03What do you take me for?
00:40:05Thank you very much indeed, Mr. Gems.
00:40:07No further questions, my lord.
00:40:10Well now, we've had two accounts of what happened between the accused and Mr. Simon on the night in question.
00:40:21I wonder which is the more accurate.
00:40:24Now, you say, Mr. Gems, that you'd been drinking that evening.
00:40:29Yeah?
00:40:30Yes.
00:40:31Seven or eight pints?
00:40:33I don't know.
00:40:34I can never be sure.
00:40:36I don't...
00:40:36You don't stand there and count them.
00:40:38I know.
00:40:39So, it could have been more.
00:40:41Being a Saturday night, you're not short of money.
00:40:44Of course not.
00:40:44Yes, and you like to spend it.
00:40:46Well, you're only young once.
00:40:47Yes.
00:40:48So, you'd had a good time that Saturday night.
00:40:51Yeah, I did, yeah.
00:40:52Yes.
00:40:54Now, you tell the court you work at Meadows.
00:40:56That's right.
00:40:57Yes, you get on well now.
00:40:58It's all right.
00:40:59No trouble at work?
00:41:01It's all right.
00:41:03I believe you joined Meadows as an apprentice.
00:41:05That's right.
00:41:06You still an apprentice?
00:41:07No.
00:41:09Oh, I would have thought at your age.
00:41:11Why not?
00:41:12Well, I got fed up with that caper.
00:41:14Running round after everybody.
00:41:16Do this, do that.
00:41:18I'm better off outside.
00:41:19Nobody's dog's body.
00:41:21So, it was your idea to give up the apprenticeship?
00:41:24Well, yeah.
00:41:25The foreman was a bastard.
00:41:27He only likes yes-men.
00:41:29I'm better off outside on the sights.
00:41:30There's more money in it anyway.
00:41:31Yes, thank you, Mr. Gems.
00:41:35Now, if we could return to the Glover's Arms on the Night in Question.
00:41:39Now, you came out of there rather merry, shall we say?
00:41:43What time would that be?
00:41:46About 11 o'clock.
00:41:47Took you that time.
00:41:48So, the incident in the public lavatories took place at 12.15.
00:41:53So, were you talking to your friends for an hour and a quarter?
00:41:57No, I told you I went into the park.
00:42:00Well, for how long?
00:42:02Half hour, three quarters.
00:42:05And what did you do in that time?
00:42:07Walk round.
00:42:09I sat down in one of the shelters.
00:42:12You were by yourself?
00:42:18Who were you with?
00:42:24Well, this girl.
00:42:27Now, my learned friend talked to you about going in the park.
00:42:30Do you remember that?
00:42:30Of course I do.
00:42:32And he asked you why you went in the park.
00:42:34Do you remember what you told him?
00:42:36I said I went in for a pee, that's all.
00:42:38Nothing wrong with that, is there?
00:42:39Or aren't you supposed to mention things like that in a place like this?
00:42:43It's not what you told him that I'm wondering about.
00:42:45It's what you didn't tell him.
00:42:46No mention of a girl then, was there?
00:42:48Well, I didn't think there was any need.
00:42:50Look, I don't tell you everything, you know.
00:42:51No, you don't, do you?
00:42:54It seems to me you tell this court what you want to tell it, what will suit you.
00:42:59Might I remind you of the oath you've taken?
00:43:01The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
00:43:05That is what you have sworn to tell.
00:43:07Oh, my lord, isn't my learned friend getting a bit carried away?
00:43:11Why, it seems to me that if every witness was to take the oath as literally as he wants
00:43:15them to, they'd be obliged to tell us what they had for breakfast in the morning.
00:43:20Now, I think the presence of this lady in the park might be relevant, Mr. Ireland.
00:43:23Would you please answer counsel's questions as politely and as honestly as you can?
00:43:27He wouldn't be asked them if it wasn't necessary.
00:43:29Now, then, what was the young lady's name?
00:43:33Wendy, I think.
00:43:35Oh, you think?
00:43:37So she's not one of this regular circle of acquaintances that my learned friend makes
00:43:41so much of?
00:43:41No.
00:43:42No, more in the nature of a one-night stand, a picker.
00:43:45My lord.
00:43:45Yes, I think that could have been better put, perhaps.
00:43:48Very well, my lord.
00:43:50Someone you'd only just met.
00:43:52That's right.
00:43:53Yes.
00:43:54Nonetheless, despite the brevity of this acquaintanceship, she agreed to come in the park with you.
00:43:58Yeah.
00:44:00Anything wrong with that?
00:44:01No, nothing at all.
00:44:02Where was she when you were in the toilets?
00:44:03She'd gone home, hadn't she?
00:44:06Oh, had she?
00:44:07On her own?
00:44:08Yeah.
00:44:10Oh, you didn't go with her?
00:44:12See her home?
00:44:13No, I didn't, as a matter of fact.
00:44:15I see.
00:44:16Why not?
00:44:17She didn't want me to, did she?
00:44:19She's a big girl now.
00:44:21You'd had a quarrel, hadn't you?
00:44:22My lord, I fail to see what my client's personal relationship with a young lady has anything
00:44:27to do with the matters we are here considering.
00:44:31Lord, if I can pursue this line of questioning just a little further, it seems to me that it
00:44:36will tell us a lot about the accused's state of mind when he met Mr. Simon, whether
00:44:42he was angry or not, and that seems to me to have a lot to do with the case.
00:44:46Yes, I agree with you, Mr. Gabbard.
00:44:47We seem to be spending a lot of time discussing people's states of mind.
00:44:50I don't see why Mr. James would be left out.
00:44:52Carry on.
00:44:53Thank you, my lord.
00:44:56Well, what was the quarrel about?
00:44:59Oh, you know women.
00:45:01Something and nothing.
00:45:01She just got hit up and ran off.
00:45:03She was no good anyway.
00:45:04No good?
00:45:06No good to you, do you mean?
00:45:08Did you make advances to this young lady before she ran off?
00:45:11Well, she wasn't me sister.
00:45:13And did she respond?
00:45:15No, I told you.
00:45:16She had to get home, like she was Cinderella or something.
00:45:20So, you were left in the park, angry, I dare say, alone, frustrated, and in that state
00:45:27of mind you went into the toilets.
00:45:29No, I said I went in for a pee, that's all.
00:45:32Not to meet a bloke like him.
00:45:33What do you take me for?
00:45:35I've already warned you, Mr. James, about general remarks of that kind.
00:45:39Do you remember?
00:45:40I am remembering, aren't I?
00:45:41I'm doing my best anyway.
00:45:42At least, it's all rules round here, your rules.
00:45:44Sure you haven't got a yellow card?
00:45:48I'm here.
00:45:49We're all here.
00:45:50So that you have a fair trial.
00:45:52Rules isn't necessary for justice to be done.
00:45:54It's not me that should be standing here, it's him.
00:45:56I warned you, answer counsel's question.
00:45:58I knew what he was after.
00:45:59You knew what he was after?
00:46:01Sir, you assumed you mean, in your arrogance and your drunkenness.
00:46:06You were looking for trouble, weren't you?
00:46:08Someone to vent your anger on.
00:46:10So you picked on Leslie Simon because he was there, and now you twist his actions to excuse
00:46:15yourself, now that the law's caught up with you.
00:46:18I'm not twisting his actions.
00:46:20He's the one that's twisted.
00:46:21Did you get hold of him, tight, by the upper arms, hard enough to hurt, hard enough to make
00:46:27him cry out?
00:46:28I don't know.
00:46:30I got hold of him, yes.
00:46:32Did you put your knee in his stomach, hard?
00:46:35Did you hit him in the chest, hard, with your fist?
00:46:38Did you push him, so that he fell down, hard enough to be knocked unconscious?
00:46:43No!
00:46:45Mr. Simon weighs nine stone, and he's 42 years old.
00:46:49He's a good deal older, and a great deal smaller than you.
00:46:53You can join us again tomorrow when the case of the Queen against Jennings is a great deal.
00:46:58You can join us again tomorrow when the case of the Queen against Jennings will be concluded
00:47:25in the Crown Court.
00:47:46The case you're about to see is a fictional one, but the procedure is legally accurate.
00:47:51The characters are played by actors, but the jury is selected from members of the general
00:47:55public, who will retire at the end of the trial to reach their own unrehearsed verdict.
00:48:01Just after midnight on February the 17th, Leslie Simon received head injuries as the result
00:48:06of a fall in the public lavatory in Alexandra Park, Forchester.
00:48:11The prosecution alleged that he fell because of an unprovoked attack made on him by Barry Gems.
00:48:16Gems has claimed in his own defence that Simon made homosexual overtures and was injured
00:48:23as he, Gems, attempted to fend him off.
00:48:27Sterling Maxwell, who appeared on the scene shortly after the alleged attack, is about to be examined.
00:48:34Quite a well-known name, Mr. Maxwell.
00:48:36How long has your family had a business in the town?
00:48:39I'm the third generation.
00:48:41My grandfather started it.
00:48:42So you're an established citizen, concerned for the good name of the place?
00:48:46Oh, very much so, for personal reasons and business reasons.
00:48:50Quite.
00:48:50Now, on the night of February the 17th, you were in Alexandra Park.
00:48:55Yes, been out to dinner with friends.
00:48:57They live in Ashton Avenue.
00:48:58We're on the Crescent.
00:48:59Park's the obvious shortcut.
00:49:01We didn't go by car?
00:49:02No, no, decided not to.
00:49:04Car been playing off a bit.
00:49:05Besides, I like the walk, particularly after a good meal.
00:49:08Got to think of burning up the calories at my age.
00:49:10Yes, quite.
00:49:12Now, what was it exactly that drew your attention to the public lavatories?
00:49:16Oh, noises, shouting.
00:49:17I heard a shout.
00:49:19Sounded like trouble, so I thought I'd better look-see.
00:49:21So you went over to the toilets?
00:49:22Yes, I did.
00:49:23Well, there's nobody else to.
00:49:24Went as quick as I could.
00:49:25Not as fit as I was, but I can still get a move on if need be.
00:49:28Yes, I'm sure.
00:49:30What did you see when you got there?
00:49:32Well, I saw these two.
00:49:33The young fella, Jems, and the other one.
00:49:36And what were they doing when you first saw them?
00:49:38Oh, Jems was standing there.
00:49:39The other one was on the floor.
00:49:41And now, Jems was standing there.
00:49:43Had he got his back to you, or was he facing you?
00:49:45No, facing me.
00:49:46I was in the doorway, do you see.
00:49:47So you could see his face?
00:49:49Yeah.
00:49:49How did he look?
00:49:50Well, shocked, alarmed, or stunned, really.
00:49:54Stunned as though something unexpected had happened?
00:49:57Well, you could say that.
00:49:57Yes, I suppose so.
00:49:59Thank you, Mr Maxwell.
00:50:00What happened then?
00:50:02Well, we just stood there, waiting for the other fella to get up, I suppose.
00:50:05A bit confused, really.
00:50:06But then the young fella, Jems, bent down a bit to have a look at him and said,
00:50:10Oh, my God, bloody.
00:50:11Now, you weren't expecting this, were you?
00:50:13You didn't know that Mr Simon had been badly hurt.
00:50:15You were expecting him to get up.
00:50:17Of course I was.
00:50:17I thought he'd slipped, fallen.
00:50:19Well, I thought he was lying low for a bit at first.
00:50:21But when Jems said that, I realised.
00:50:23Well, what happened next?
00:50:24Well, Jems was in no state to cope.
00:50:26You could see he was shocked.
00:50:27So I thought I'd better.
00:50:28I was lucky I was there.
00:50:29So I said, now, take it easy.
00:50:31We'd better get somebody to see this.
00:50:33Indeed.
00:50:33And how did Jems respond?
00:50:35Well, he kind of came towards me.
00:50:37I was in the doorway still, of course.
00:50:38He needed a bit of fresh air, I dare say.
00:50:40And I said, now, hold on a minute.
00:50:42We'd better decide what to do.
00:50:43And I got hold of his shoulders.
00:50:45He stopped then.
00:50:46I could feel him shaking.
00:50:47He said, I didn't mean to do it.
00:50:49It was an accident.
00:50:50I didn't mean to do it.
00:50:53It was an accident.
00:50:54Is that what he said?
00:50:57And what happened next?
00:51:00Well, there wasn't much time, really.
00:51:01The police arrived.
00:51:02Five minutes too late, as usual.
00:51:04They should have been there half an hour earlier.
00:51:06All evening, if need be, if they know that kind of thing goes on.
00:51:08What kind of thing, Mr. Maxwell?
00:51:10Well, him.
00:51:12You told P.C. Collins that Leslie Simon had been making approaches to Jems.
00:51:17Why did you say that?
00:51:18Because that's what happened.
00:51:20But how did you know?
00:51:21Had Jems told you, or did you just jump to conclusions?
00:51:23Well, Jems said so, of course.
00:51:25Can you remember his exact words, Mr. Maxwell?
00:51:28It would help the court very much if you could.
00:51:30Well, not the words.
00:51:31It all happened at once.
00:51:32But that was the impression I got quite definitely.
00:51:35Hmm.
00:51:37Now, did Jems seem pleased to see the police?
00:51:40Well, of course he was.
00:51:41Best thing.
00:51:42It has been suggested, you see, that he was very sorry to see the police.
00:51:46That if he'd been left on his own, he would have been able to have made a quiet getaway.
00:51:50Oh, well, he didn't know which way up he was, poor chap.
00:51:52Shock, like I told you.
00:51:54I don't think he quite took him when it happened at first.
00:51:56But when I calmed him down, explained, he behaved very reasonably.
00:52:00Very reasonably for a chap of his age, and well, I mean, under the circumstances.
00:52:04So you saw no reason whatsoever for disbelieving his story.
00:52:09He was approached by Simon and did nothing more other than defend himself.
00:52:12That's right.
00:52:13That's what happened.
00:52:14Unfortunate but true.
00:52:16Anybody who thinks otherwise is a fool.
00:52:17Thank you very much, Mr. Maxwell.
00:52:19No further questions, my lord.
00:52:22Mr. Maxwell.
00:52:24Are you a married man?
00:52:26Grown-up family.
00:52:28But your wife wasn't with you on the night in question?
00:52:31Oh, she was away.
00:52:32I'd been all week.
00:52:33Her mother was ill.
00:52:34Yes, I see.
00:52:38Now, you were in the park.
00:52:40You heard shouts in the lavatory.
00:52:42Where were you when you first heard those shouts?
00:52:44Oh, walking along.
00:52:46Where now?
00:52:46Hang on there.
00:52:47I'd just crossed the bridge over the boating lake.
00:52:50I see.
00:52:50So quite some distance away from the toilets.
00:52:52Oh, a couple of hundred yards.
00:52:55And yet you heard the shouts quite clearly,
00:52:58clearly enough to attract your attention.
00:53:00Well, I couldn't catch the words.
00:53:01No, but did you hear one voice or two?
00:53:05One, I suppose.
00:53:06And could you catch whose voice it was?
00:53:08I wouldn't like to say that.
00:53:10Only, Mr. Simon is a notably quiet speaker.
00:53:14Is he?
00:53:15Yes, he is.
00:53:16So it seems likely it was Jem's voice you heard, doesn't it?
00:53:19I suppose so.
00:53:20Hmm.
00:53:22Now, did you decide to intervene at once?
00:53:24Oh, naturally.
00:53:24I mean, it was my duty.
00:53:26Only some of us might have hesitated to think the matter through.
00:53:31Well, I thought about it.
00:53:32I mean, I didn't rush in, fools and all that.
00:53:33But, I mean, when the noise went on, I didn't see much choice.
00:53:36Well, your decision does you credit.
00:53:39Now, a couple of hundred yards and a very sensible pause for thought.
00:53:45So, how much time elapsed between the time that you first heard the noise from the toilets
00:53:49and when you arrived at the toilet door?
00:53:51I wouldn't like to say.
00:53:52I mean, time does funny things.
00:53:53A minute or two?
00:53:55Oh, at least I should think.
00:53:57Time enough for Mr. Gems to have hit Mr. Simon before you arrived on the scene?
00:54:02Well, I suppose so.
00:54:03Hmm.
00:54:04Time enough, would you say, to have kneed him in the stomach?
00:54:07Well, he could have.
00:54:08Hit him in the chest?
00:54:09If he'd wanted to.
00:54:10Which is what Mr. Simon says was happening while you were walking across the park.
00:54:16And did the shouting go on throughout your walk?
00:54:19I suppose it did.
00:54:20And we've already established, haven't we, that it was...
00:54:23Must have been Gems' voice you heard, shouting at Mr. Simon.
00:54:29Now then, when you got to the toilets, Leslie Simon was already on the floor.
00:54:36He'd already been knocked down, hadn't he?
00:54:38That's right.
00:54:39Yes.
00:54:40Unconscious, unable to speak for himself.
00:54:44So the first account that you heard was that of the uninjured party, that of Gems.
00:54:50But I've already said that.
00:54:51Have you ever spoken to Leslie Simon?
00:54:55No.
00:54:56No, I've not.
00:54:58Nor am I likely to.
00:54:59So you've never heard his side of the story, have you?
00:55:02Since he wasn't able to give it that night.
00:55:05Well, naturally not.
00:55:06And you believed the only story you heard?
00:55:11Hmm.
00:55:14Now then, Mr. Maxwell.
00:55:15Have you heard of the reputation of this lavatory as a haunt for homosexuals?
00:55:19Not particularly.
00:55:20Really?
00:55:22I believe it was well known in the neighbourhood that it had been commented on in the press.
00:55:27Well, I suppose I'd heard something.
00:55:28I mean, I'm not a hermit.
00:55:30Yes.
00:55:30You told my learned friend that when you heard shouting, you realised what was going on.
00:55:36Now, what did you mean by that?
00:55:37Well, trouble.
00:55:38Trouble?
00:55:39Well, what sort of trouble did you expect, given that the noise came from the toilets and that these toilets had a rather well-known reputation?
00:55:46Well, I didn't...
00:55:48I just went for a look-see.
00:55:50What?
00:55:51No idea at all?
00:55:53Not even in your moment or two's pause for thought?
00:55:57Do you mean to say you were going to intervene without any idea of what to expect?
00:56:02Well, I suppose I had some idea.
00:56:05I thought it might be some kind of queer stuff.
00:56:07Love is tiff.
00:56:09Importuning.
00:56:10Importuning.
00:56:10Yes.
00:56:12You thought before you ever got to the toilets that there might be some queer stuff.
00:56:17It seems to me you had a good idea what to expect.
00:56:19Well, I'm not enough to fall.
00:56:21I was prepared for unpleasantness, of course.
00:56:23Of course.
00:56:24And what you saw lived up to your expectations, didn't it?
00:56:28I'm afraid so.
00:56:30Very unfortunate for this young man.
00:56:31You're afraid so?
00:56:33It seems to me, in the light of what you've told, is almost inevitable that it should be so.
00:56:37You made up your mind before you ever got there.
00:56:41And you fitted what you saw in those few seconds to the picture in your mind.
00:56:45Nonsense.
00:56:46I know what I saw.
00:56:47The young fellow was defending himself against the advances of this pervert.
00:56:51I can't allow that.
00:56:52That really is an uncalled-for remark.
00:56:55You don't know what happened.
00:56:56You only know what you saw and what you were told.
00:56:58My apologies, my lord.
00:57:00You see, what I'm suggesting, Mr. Maxwell, is that you arrived at the toilets with an idea in your mind.
00:57:09And you interpreted what you saw in the light of that idea.
00:57:14Now, that is certainly possible, isn't it?
00:57:16But he said he was messing about with me.
00:57:18Who said?
00:57:19Gems.
00:57:19Oh, Gems, yes, he said.
00:57:22When he saw you and realised that he wasn't going to be able to run off unseen, when he knew that you were going to intervene, then he thought quickly, didn't he?
00:57:31Planted the idea in your head.
00:57:33He was messing about with me, he said.
00:57:35And you accepted that.
00:57:37I'm not a child.
00:57:39I use my eyes, my common sense, my knowledge of the world.
00:57:42We're all men of the world here, I hope.
00:57:44And women.
00:57:45The case should never have been brought.
00:57:47I protested to the chief constable, as a matter of fact, that apparently I was too late.
00:57:50The law must take its course.
00:57:52Unfortunate, perhaps, but here we are, all of us, wasting our time.
00:57:54I can only hope the law will take its course, and this charge will be thrown out, as it deserves to be.
00:58:00Mr. Hardman, you're the licensee of the Glover's Arms.
00:58:10Yes, sir.
00:58:11How long have you had a license?
00:58:13I see, there's seven years at the NAG, eight here, that's 15 years, sir.
00:58:17And eight of them at the Glover's Arms?
00:58:19That's right.
00:58:20Which is quite a small establishment, I believe.
00:58:22I wouldn't say that, sir. There's the two bars and quite a lot of trade.
00:58:25Oh, yes, of course, Mr. Hardman. I didn't want to imply that your pub is not successful.
00:58:29I believe that it's very successful.
00:58:31It's just that it's a small, local establishment with a regular clientele.
00:58:35Everybody knows everyone else, and the landlord, you in this case, knows exactly what's going on.
00:58:41I'd like that, all right, sir.
00:58:42Now, is Barry Gems a regular customer?
00:58:46That's right, sir. He lives just down the road.
00:58:49And was he in the pub on Saturday night?
00:58:51That's right, sir.
00:58:52And you remember that Saturday night, do you?
00:58:55Yes, it was a bit of a celebration, as a matter of fact.
00:58:57This mate of Barry's was 18 that week.
00:59:00They'd all been chipping in for his first official drink.
00:59:03And his second. And his third.
00:59:06Now, while all this was going on, Mr. Hardman,
00:59:09did it appear that Barry Gems had had too much to drink?
00:59:14Oh, no. He was his usual self, that's all.
00:59:16Of course, he's a lively lad, and so he should be at his age, but nothing I would object to.
00:59:20By lively, do you mean that he's friendly, or, I mean, an outgoing sort of character?
00:59:27Yeah, friendly. Everybody's mate's Barry Gems, some of all sorts.
00:59:31Have you ever known him take a sudden dislike to the look of someone?
00:59:35Oh, no. He's easy going. Good lad.
00:59:37So he's not the sort that would launch a vicious attack on a solitary man,
00:59:41not without severe and extraordinary provocations?
00:59:45Oh, no.
00:59:45Is there perhaps a happier way to phrase that question?
00:59:48I'm sorry, my lord.
00:59:49I mean, Mr. Hardman, have you ever seen Mr. Gems being at all violent or vicious?
00:59:56Oh, no.
00:59:57Of course, he won't be made a fool of, and quite right, too.
01:00:00I mean, if I had a lad, I've only got girls.
01:00:02I'd make sure he could take care of himself.
01:00:04Now, Mr. Hardman, why did you agree to come here and speak for my client?
01:00:09Because I thought it was right.
01:00:10When I heard about what was happening to him, I felt sorry for him.
01:00:13Said I'd do what I could to see it right, to see justice done.
01:00:16See, I don't blame him for what he did.
01:00:18I mean, he pushed a fellow out of the way.
01:00:19What do you expect him to do?
01:00:20But they say, the prosecution, that is, that it wasn't like that at all.
01:00:25That he beat up this fellow for no other reason except fun.
01:00:28If you'll believe that, you'll believe anything.
01:00:30Like I said, he's a bit high-spirited, hasty perhaps, vicious.
01:00:36Don't make me laugh.
01:00:37Thank you very much, Mr. Hardman.
01:00:39Now, on the night of February the 70th, do you remember Barry leaving the pub?
01:00:44Yes, I do.
01:00:45He's one of the last out.
01:00:46We were waiting to lock up.
01:00:47Was he alone?
01:00:48No, there was a gang, well, a group of them.
01:00:50Boys and girls?
01:00:51Yes.
01:00:53What kind of spirit was he in?
01:00:55Did you notice his behaviour?
01:00:57Yeah, he was cheerful, friendly, very nice, good night, and then I locked up.
01:01:02Good.
01:01:03Now, Mr. Hardman, you're a man with some experience of young people, both, how shall I put it, professionally and privately.
01:01:10Would you give this court your considered judgment of my client?
01:01:17Yes, I will.
01:01:19He's a fine lad.
01:01:20You couldn't ask for better.
01:01:22Thank you very much, Mr. Hardman.
01:01:23No further questions, my lord.
01:01:27Now, Mr. Hardman, you say that the night of the 17th was the birthday of a mate of Jem's?
01:01:38Yes.
01:01:40Yes.
01:01:40This mate, had he ever been in your pub before?
01:01:44Yes.
01:01:46Regularly?
01:01:48Yes.
01:01:48But on the night in question, if I remember rightly, he was just 18.
01:01:55So what was he doing as a regular customer in your pub?
01:01:58Not drinking.
01:01:59I didn't say drinking.
01:02:00You can't get me like that.
01:02:01I never serve underage.
01:02:02I'm very careful.
01:02:03I've got my living to earn, and besides, it's not right.
01:02:06Can you always be so sure?
01:02:08Do you ask them to produce their birth certificate?
01:02:10If need be, if I think it will put them in their place.
01:02:13I mean, some of them think they can get one over you, but they can't.
01:02:15Not over me.
01:02:17You have strong views, Mr. Hardman.
01:02:20I know right from wrong, and I try to keep to it.
01:02:21Hmm.
01:02:23Once you've made up your mind, you don't change it easily.
01:02:25That's right.
01:02:26And you like Barry Jems.
01:02:29He's one of your kind.
01:02:30Sort of boy you'd like to have as a son.
01:02:33I've said so.
01:02:34Hmm.
01:02:34Now, you don't like outsiders.
01:02:39You run your pub with an iron hand, do you?
01:02:42Well, you could say that.
01:02:43I'm in charge, anyway.
01:02:45Well, doesn't that sometimes lead to difficulties?
01:02:47Um, trouble?
01:02:49What do you do when you have trouble in your pub?
01:02:52If there's trouble, and I'm not saying there is to speak of,
01:02:54but if somebody's getting a bit uppity,
01:02:56not behaving himself like you should, you might say,
01:02:59I show him the door, that's what.
01:03:01Show him the door?
01:03:02Yeah, nothing physical, not beyond the odd hand on the shoulder.
01:03:06I mean, staring at them, that's enough for most of them.
01:03:11And if that doesn't work, there's always the law.
01:03:13The law?
01:03:14Oh, you mean the police?
01:03:16Yes, that's just what I mean.
01:03:18I see.
01:03:19So you find it necessary to call the police to your pub sometimes, do you?
01:03:23I've just done it once, that's all.
01:03:24And then it wasn't trouble with my regulars, weren't the local lads at all.
01:03:27You know, some crowd from Norwich, they'd come for the football.
01:03:30Looking for trouble.
01:03:31Well, they're not fit to be in long trousers, most of them.
01:03:33If their dads are giving one or two good hide-ins, show them who's boss.
01:03:37Well, anyway, I show them who's boss.
01:03:40Lads, you say?
01:03:42Teenagers?
01:03:43Fisticuffs?
01:03:44Little bit of a house, your father.
01:03:46Violence?
01:03:48A few broken glasses.
01:03:49I see.
01:03:50I see.
01:03:50So, on at least one occasion, there has been trouble at your pub, bad enough to necessitate
01:03:57calling the police, which you nonetheless choose to dismiss as a bit of hows your father.
01:04:04However, perhaps you're more tolerant than most of us.
01:04:07The ladies and gentlemen of the jury, for instance.
01:04:09My lord, has this witness come here to be examined on how to run his public house?
01:04:14He isn't here to apply for a licence.
01:04:17No, he doesn't need to.
01:04:18He's already got one.
01:04:20Now, Mr Hardman, on the occasion of this trouble, when the police were called,
01:04:25that those involved were young people, you said?
01:04:27That's right.
01:04:29It's about the defendant's age?
01:04:30That's right.
01:04:32I see.
01:04:33So, was he by any chance there on that occasion?
01:04:37I don't know.
01:04:40It was a Saturday?
01:04:42Yeah, I suppose.
01:04:42Well, it must have been if it was football.
01:04:44But I thought he was a regular on a Saturday.
01:04:48Oh, yeah, that's right.
01:04:48I remember now.
01:04:49Yes, he was there.
01:04:51Oh, he was, was he?
01:04:53And did he get mixed up in this brawl?
01:04:55Well, you know how it is.
01:04:56It's not a big place.
01:04:57I see, so he did.
01:04:59And did the police distinguish as carefully as you do between regulars and visiting hooligans,
01:05:04or did they arrest a lot of them?
01:05:06There were no charges.
01:05:07They just took them down the station till they cooled down.
01:05:09Took who down?
01:05:10Gems?
01:05:11Well, like I said, there was a lot of them.
01:05:13And Gems was amongst them.
01:05:15Yes, he was.
01:05:16But it was a mistake.
01:05:17They let him go.
01:05:17Well, they let everyone go, didn't they?
01:05:20Perhaps it might have been better if they hadn't let him off so lightly, mightn't it?
01:05:25Anybody can make a mistake.
01:05:27Now, the Glover's Arms is a local pub, isn't it?
01:05:31You depend upon local trade?
01:05:33Yes.
01:05:34So you want to keep on good terms with your neighbours?
01:05:37Of course I do.
01:05:39And you said that the Gems family are neighbours?
01:05:42Yes.
01:05:44Perhaps more than neighbours?
01:05:46In a small community?
01:05:48Friends?
01:05:49Of course we're all friends.
01:05:53No more questions, my lord?
01:05:55I'm very sorry to be here.
01:06:04Any case that drags into view a man's private life must be a sad one.
01:06:09And perhaps even more so when that man is someone like Leslie Simon.
01:06:15He has suffered by having to talk about his behaviour and perhaps even more by the suggestions that have been made about it.
01:06:26He denies that he has homosexual tendencies or that he acted them out with Barry Gems.
01:06:37The whole idea is distasteful to him.
01:06:40I suggest that on the night of February the 17th, Gems was frustrated and angry.
01:06:49He was looking for a scapegoat.
01:06:50And unfortunately he found that scapegoat in Leslie Simon.
01:06:56Now it seems to me that the only thing that would bring a man like Leslie Simon into this court
01:07:03to give the kind of evidence that he has been required to give is the desire to see justice done.
01:07:11And I hope that that courage will be rewarded and that this court will extend to him and all the weaker and more vulnerable members of our society
01:07:22the protection that they need.
01:07:25And that can only happen if you, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, have the courage to bring in a verdict of guilty
01:07:34and to give this young man the lesson that he deserves.
01:07:41And my learned friend has described this case as a sad one.
01:07:45And I agree with him.
01:07:47Any case that concerns a person as young as my client must be a sad one.
01:07:52Now Mr. Barry Gems does not deny pushing Leslie Simon but he did so with one very good overriding reason.
01:08:01He pushed him to protect himself, to defend himself from advances that he found extremely distasteful.
01:08:07Now my client regrets Mr. Simon's injuries as much as anyone else.
01:08:15It may be that he doesn't know his own strength.
01:08:18But if he was approached in the way he described, can anyone blame him for trying to repel those advances?
01:08:26He's a young man, he's at the start of his life, and I ask you to acquit him so that he may leave this court a free man
01:08:36and start that life without the stain of a conviction.
01:08:39And there are no eyewitnesses to those events which took place in that public laboratory on February the 17th,
01:08:48apart from the two people directly involved, Mr. Simon and Mr. Jones.
01:08:53Now you've seen those two men give evidence, and it's your responsibility, members of the jury,
01:08:58in the light of what you've heard, to decide which of those two stories you will accept.
01:09:06Remember, it is for the prosecution to prove their case beyond all reasonable doubt.
01:09:12Now will you please retire, elect a foreman to speak for you, and consider your verdict.
01:09:16Members of the jury, will your foreman please stand?
01:09:28Please answer this question, yes or no.
01:09:31Have you reached a verdict on which you were all agreed?
01:09:33Yes.
01:09:34Do you find the defendant, Barry Gems, guilty or not guilty?
01:09:39Guilty.
01:09:39Barry Gems, you have been convicted of an offence of causing grievous bodily harm.
01:09:47This is a serious offence.
01:09:50Nonetheless, I remember that you are young, and for that reason, perhaps headstrong.
01:09:55You must learn to overcome this.
01:09:58I sentence you to three months in a detention centre,
01:10:01and bind you over to keep the peace for 12 months in the sum of 250 pounds.
01:10:05That means that if at any time in the next 12 months you're in trouble of this kind,
01:10:12you'll be fined that sum of money.
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