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00:00Hi.
00:01Hi.
00:02Nice to see you.
00:03Dame Jacinda, tēnā koe.
00:05Kia ora, Jessie.
00:06Really nice to see you.
00:08This is the first media interview you've done for ages in New Zealand.
00:11I sort of feel like a lot of people watching will be wanting me to hold you account for
00:15some of the stuff that happened when you were Prime Minister and then a lot of other people
00:19will just be thinking, check that she's okay and express our regret for a lot of the stuff
00:24that happened while she was in New Zealand.
00:25So I suppose with both of those people in mind, let me begin by just asking, where have
00:31you been?
00:33Well, firstly, I acknowledge the vexed position that you find yourself in.
00:39I have been back and forth a little bit.
00:43So I have been at home over summer, but for the most part, I've been here at Harvard University.
00:51We're filming at the moment out of the JFK School of Government, which has been an incredible
00:59place to be over the, you know, going on two years, where I've been a fellow.
01:05That sounds quite lofty, by the way, a fellow at Harvard.
01:08What does it actually mean?
01:10It's a great question.
01:11And, you know, to be honest, when I said yes to Harvard, my second question was, and what
01:19would I be doing exactly?
01:22And I've been incredibly flexible.
01:24So I've done everything from holding office hours with mid-career students to being part
01:31of their executive education programs, teaching in one-off classes, and also been involved in
01:39case studies.
01:39But it's also been a base for me while I've done other things.
01:42I'm still the patron of the Christchurch Call, which works on violent extremism and terrorism
01:48online.
01:49I still do work on climate change.
01:52And in fact, I've just taken on a role as special envoy for Oceania for COP.
01:58I still work with the Earthshot Prize.
02:00So I do lots and bits of pieces.
02:02I just happen to have been doing them here.
02:04There is a lot of vitriol in New Zealand towards you, I'm sorry to say.
02:08And you've experienced that firsthand.
02:10You tell a story in the book about being really accosted in a bathroom at the airport.
02:15And you must realise that that still exists in New Zealand.
02:20And it must make you feel a little nervous coming back with your family.
02:24Do you know, one of the things that I put into the book, not so much to give a singular
02:31personal experience, but to speak to what I've noticed is a change in the political environment
02:38generally.
02:39And I don't even mean just in New Zealand.
02:41What's been really interesting to me is the conversations I have with leaders past and
02:46present is that they've noticed a shift over the last five years in particular.
02:52So that is not to say, of course, we haven't had our own experiences in New Zealand.
02:56But I think if we're looking to solutions, it is interesting to observe that it's not
03:01just us.
03:02It's not just us and it's not just me.
03:04And I also don't want to overstate it.
03:06It's a tricky thing because, you see, I don't want to trivialise it, but I don't want to
03:09overstate it.
03:10It's not my everyday experience of New Zealand or New Zealanders.
03:15I was chatting to a national cabinet minister and I said, you know, I'm talking to Jacinda
03:24and it's incredible that she went from, you know, a majority, the first MNP, absolute
03:29majority to the level of negativity that she experienced, the level of vitriol.
03:35I said, why do you think that was?
03:36And he said, misogyny.
03:38And he was a national cabinet minister.
03:41Is it misogyny as well as all that global stuff?
03:45Do you get it worse because you're a woman?
03:47Yeah, I mean, it's interesting.
03:48People reflect this back to me, but it's about what they believe my experience to have
03:53been and it often doesn't mirror how it felt.
03:57And again, that's not to say that there isn't an issue there, but was my day-to-day experience
04:05was not, you know, I didn't go home at night and think about my experience with misogyny.
04:09I didn't.
04:11You know, there were challenges, of course, you know, and sometimes I'd have pause to
04:15think about what perspective some critique might have been coming at me from.
04:20But that wasn't the first place I went to and it wasn't my overwhelming experience.
04:24And that's why it doesn't dominate, for instance, the story I've written, the reflection of
04:30my time.
04:31Again, we do internationally have an issue at play.
04:36And I think the reason it needs to be addressed is because we want good people to be in politics.
04:40So that's the reason why I think we should talk about some of those issues for politicians
04:44generally.
04:45And we should humanise politics.
04:47And that's also what I'm trying to do.
04:49Would you let Niamh go on to politics?
04:52If that was her desire, I would, if that was her desire.
04:56You know, in part because, I mean, don't all parents just want to support their kids to
05:01find their joy?
05:01And I think it's, you know, fair that it's often the case for, you know, parents to question
05:07whether or not politics and joy are compatible.
05:11But they are.
05:13It can be an incredibly fulfilling role and career.
05:17But that's not to say we couldn't make it better or easier.
05:20Would you give her the same advice that I think Trevor Mallard gave to you, which is don't
05:25lose your sensitivity.
05:27Don't lose your thin skin.
05:28Don't lose your empathy.
05:30I would.
05:31Yeah, I absolutely would.
05:32I mean, it was my father who was, you know, really concerned.
05:36My mother actually, you know, I think was probably, you know, a little more open about the idea
05:41of me going into politics.
05:43She could see my passion for it.
05:44My dad really worried.
05:46You know, he worried that I was, as he told a colleague of mine before I became an MP,
05:51oh, no, politics, not for Jacinda, she's too thin-skinned.
05:55And he was right.
05:57But I think the learning for me was actually maybe we need thin-skinned people in politics
06:02because usually that is emblematic of the fact that you're empathetic, that actually
06:08you're motivated to do the right thing by people.
06:11And it really deeply affects you if you're critiqued for not doing your job well.
06:15That is a form of motivation.
06:17Wouldn't do us any harm to have a bit of that in politics too.
06:21Congratulations on the book, which covers a lot of your childhood, moving around New
06:27Zealand, the moments in your life when you felt like the odd one out.
06:30And I wonder if the process of writing actually helped you make sense of how the little girl
06:37from Mutapata became the woman sitting in front of us.
06:42Yeah, it's interesting.
06:43Someone, I was describing the writing process to someone and they said, ah, so therapy with
06:49a deadline.
06:49And yeah, probably there's some truth in that.
06:54It's really interesting to me that perhaps because it's an unusual career path, people
06:59are often interested in where your motivation and your values come from.
07:04And I think when you're writing a memoir, you are digging back a little bit and trying
07:08to give a bit of an explanation of how you came to be on the path that you were.
07:12The thing that I ended up finding the trickiest actually was going back and talking about the
07:18role that faith had had for me, not because that had been something I hadn't disclosed.
07:23You know, it was very much on the record that I was raised in the LDS church.
07:28The thing I found difficult was actually after I left, I just put that away in a box and didn't
07:33really reflect on it again.
07:35When I came to write, I had to pull it all back out again.
07:38So that was, yeah, that was an interesting experience.
07:41Yeah.
07:43We'll get into the specifics of these moments, but did you ever find that faith, that grounding
07:47in faith helped in your darkest and toughest moments in office?
07:53I don't know whether or not necessarily it was specific to moments, but it did give me
07:59a, no question, it's always given me a sense of the importance of service because I was raised
08:05in a very service orientated religion and community.
08:09But I think it also gave me a respect for people who do have faith in their lives.
08:16And it gave me an understanding of faith communities, I think.
08:20And I do think that's been helpful.
08:22It probably motivated me to want to try and build a few more of those bridges.
08:26But in those darker moments, you know, actually, I would describe myself as agnostic.
08:35And so, you know, perhaps having had, you know, having faith, I think, does help people
08:42through those dark moments.
08:43Whereas I tended to lean into just my family and friends, probably.
08:47Do you still, according to the Mormon tradition, keep three months of groceries at all times in
08:51your house?
08:52Clark would probably say inevitably or without perhaps being conscious of it that I might.
09:01But not consciously, no.
09:03Did you find the things that you remembered about your childhood told their own story?
09:08I'm thinking in particular about the anecdote of your sister and you walking through Murapara
09:12and seeing a cold, hungry, young boy.
09:16And it seemed like moments like that really stuck with you.
09:19Yeah, and what's interesting, because, you know, memory is an interesting thing.
09:24And I had such a detailed memory of it.
09:26I wondered why, you know.
09:30And I called my sister and I said to her, do you remember this event?
09:36And she remembered it with as much detail as I did, which was really, you know, interesting
09:43to me.
09:43It was obviously just something that stuck with both of us.
09:47And did it have an impact on the way I saw the world?
09:51Almost certainly.
09:52But there's a simplicity in the way that you see the world when you're a child.
09:56You don't see the politics.
09:57You don't see ideas of responsibility.
10:00You just see a child in different circumstances to you.
10:03And maybe, maybe that was the beginning of a lifelong passion around children's well-being.
10:11I couldn't tell you, but all I know is it was a very vivid memory.
10:17Some people come across really well in the book, Grant Robertson in particular, who was
10:22there from the very early days with you in politics.
10:25And then some don't.
10:26You could have said nothing about David Cunliffe, but you really paint a pretty critical picture.
10:31Why did you decide to do that?
10:32You know, I think with any character in the book, for the most part, I've just tried to
10:39write experiences, so without giving too much commentary on anyone as an individual person.
10:47So just setting out a set of events.
10:51And I did really, I tried to be really thoughtful about that.
10:54I think in, you know, one of the critiques I've had is that some people think I haven't dished
11:00enough on certain people.
11:02But my intent was really to tell, you know, share my experience, share a little of what
11:10it is to be in politics.
11:12And there were a few moments that, you know, were, you know, perhaps a little bit formative
11:20in my career, where, you know, I was struggling with this question of whether or not I was
11:27viewed tokenistically.
11:29And the story that I shared came up through the course of those events.
11:33So to not share it would have been a very deliberate edit, a very deliberate exclusion
11:39of something that really did stand out in my mind.
11:42So it wasn't just about the person, it was about the moment.
11:44And it was about three years of our time in office as well.
11:48Yeah.
11:49Well, a year in particular.
11:51I have read the book, but people watching may not have.
11:55So what happened in that conversation with the then leader, David Cunliffe, when he called
11:59you in?
12:00Shouldn't we dangle that out there as a reason why everyone should go and read it in its totality?
12:08Well, look, I do author interviews all the time, and they don't hold back.
12:13They know they need to give us some scraps.
12:16I'm an inexperienced author, clearly.
12:18I mean, essentially what we're discussing was, you know, when you come to have a reshuffle,
12:24you'll often have one-on-one conversations with, in this case, the new leader of the opposition.
12:29And what I've recounted is simply the conversation around, you know, what role I might have and
12:35whether or not that role would be perceived as tokenistic.
12:39So that's essentially the exchange in a nutshell.
12:43I mean, you're just reporting things as you experience them.
12:46But you must be aware that in that book, you know, David Cunliffe comes across as, what's
12:52the RNZ word for this?
12:53You know, a douchebag.
12:55Well, that's, well, I've simply told the story.
12:59And perhaps that might have been your interpretation of the story, Jessie.
13:04But I think a lot of the things that are in there are also a reflection of that period in
13:08opposition, which was pretty tough for us, it is fair to say.
13:12And some of the events actually are all in the public domain.
13:15The one that is not is around the reshuffle and, you know, who would be the most, you know,
13:24who were the lineup of the front bench.
13:26And so I've shared that experience.
13:29But in part, that was because it was an occasion where, yeah, I hadn't often been asked to
13:35consider whether or not I might be tokenistic.
13:38And that was the moment I was.
13:39And so I shared that story.
13:41Again, my intent never in writing this was to ever malign, but just to share an experience.
13:48Are you still in touch with David Cunliffe?
13:52No, but it's fair to say I have a few colleagues that if I, certainly if I saw them, I would
13:57stop and have conversation and he would be one of them.
14:00But, you know, there's not, not everyone do I have regular exchanges with.
14:06You don't talk much about Winston Peters.
14:08Can you explain him to me?
14:10Well, no.
14:15I can't.
14:18You worked with him for three years, but he barely gets a mention in the book.
14:22Why is that?
14:22I'm not sure.
14:23I would say that, you know, particularly in the negotiation period, I talk about the
14:29fact that, you know, here I was negotiating with someone that I didn't have that much
14:33experience of and I didn't know particularly well.
14:37Then, of course, through the course of the book, you'll hear me talk about how things
14:40actually, we were making them work as a coalition.
14:43And that's the truth of it.
14:44We did.
14:45And so that's actually, that was my experience.
14:48And so that's what's been put on a page.
14:51Much of the commentary has been after the period that we worked together.
14:55And I felt no cause to write about the aftermath when New Zealand First wasn't in office and
15:00we continued to be.
15:01You sent him a text when you were on your way to give birth.
15:06What did the text say?
15:07I essentially said, I'm on my way to hospital.
15:14Over to you.
15:15Talk soon.
15:18Essentially.
15:19Yeah.
15:19And I still remember, you know, things like the, you know, the meeting I had to have with
15:26him.
15:26I didn't, I don't go into detail on this in the book, but the meeting where I essentially
15:30had to sit down and tell him that I was pregnant and could he please take over for a period of
15:38time.
15:40And, you know, it was very pleasant.
15:42There was a plate of club sandwiches sitting between us as I shared this news.
15:47And I remember him being completely unfazed by it.
15:51And yeah, that was, that was, you know, our relationship was always, you know, pretty
15:55cordial.
15:57One thing that I'm struck by reading the book is, I mean, just what a period it was for
16:03you.
16:03Okay.
16:03So 2017, this meteoric rise to becoming a leader, the negotiations become prime minister.
16:10And then you get pregnant and you have a child, you take maternity leave, you come back.
16:19And I think you say to Clark at the end of 2018, well, maybe next year we'll be a little
16:23quieter.
16:24Yeah.
16:25And then the mosque attacks.
16:27I actually, I've got to say, I found that very moving reading about the mosque attacks
16:32in March, 2019.
16:33Out of that came the Christchurch call and I wonder, has the Christchurch call achieved
16:43anything meaningful?
16:44Is there any less violent extremism online because of what you've done with that initiative?
16:50Very hard to say.
16:52What would the baseline of people's exposure to violent extremism have been were it not
17:01for the call?
17:02But what I can tell you is that since the attack on March 15, where that video that was taken
17:12by the terrorists that day was uploaded once per second for the first 24 hours on YouTube
17:16and was removed from Facebook 1.5 million times, a crisis response protocol was established
17:23to make sure that should this occur in the future, that companies would coordinate and expedite
17:29the removal of any content of that nature.
17:32It has been deployed 300, more than 300 times since our attack.
17:39And there has never been anything of the scale of our New Zealand's experience since then.
17:44But the call, and since then we've had a number of changes to the way that live streaming,
17:50for instance, works.
17:53There's now a body that is fully funded and operating a 24-7 response model as well.
18:00There's a number of additional initiatives now that exist around, for instance, AI, around
18:09radicalisation for young people that would not work, that would otherwise not be undertaken.
18:14If your question, though, is generally, are we seeing less violent extremism and terrorism?
18:21No, we're not.
18:22But that's actually more reason for us to keep going and for the work to continue.
18:27And it does continue because it's even more challenging than it has been.
18:31Did you perhaps aim too low when you had the world's attention following those mosque attacks?
18:37Was that the time to make some real systemic changes about social media and its potential
18:42to radicalise people, to polarise people without regulation?
18:47I think it's important to remember that the call itself does not narrow its scope to things
18:52like live streaming.
18:53It says to all those who are part of the call that we each have a role in addressing radicalisation
19:00online and violent extremism and terrorism online, which is why five years later the call
19:05still exists and work is still underway.
19:08I think where the issue lies is at the very beginning point of the advent of social media,
19:15well before New Zealand had this experience, was enough work done to put in guardrails to
19:20acknowledge the worst case scenario of the advent of new technologies.
19:24And I think the answer is no.
19:26That is one of the key learnings we're seeing now with the work that's being done on AI.
19:30I think everyone understands that retrofitting after the fact is incredibly difficult and
19:36you're much, much better placed to do it at the beginning.
19:40So 2019, the mosque attacks, you had the White Island tragedy to deal with and then 2020 of
19:48course is COVID and we had some huge successes with COVID and some aspects of the COVID response,
19:54which I think still are visible in New Zealand today.
19:56The division and some of the resentments around vaccine mandates in particular.
20:03I see the Royal Commission concluded last year that the government was perhaps too harsh
20:10when it came to mandates and lockdowns.
20:12Do you agree with them?
20:13Well, I mean, we put them in place for a reason.
20:15We put them in place because we felt that we weren't the ones best placed to say, here's
20:20the key learnings from this experience.
20:22And we wanted to learn.
20:24We wanted to understand, not just for ourselves, but for future governments, what needs to be
20:31done to be better prepared should this occur again.
20:34So, you know, I take it as rare, they've put, they did an enormous amount of work and made
20:40these suggestions for any future government who I hope never experiences something like
20:45COVID-19.
20:47But their findings were there for a reason and we should take heed of them in the future.
20:52You know, the one thing I would also say though, Jessie, is that, you know, my goal from the
20:57outside of this horrific experience was save people's lives and keep people together.
21:05And I think we did one and the other we didn't.
21:09But when I look around the world, we weren't the only ones that struggled with the second
21:13part.
21:14And, you know, places who had very different strategies to New Zealand are having the same
21:20experience in the aftermath now.
21:22And I think there's really work there to be done to understand, you know, what we can
21:29do in the future and how we can heal some of that because it is an incredibly difficult
21:34environment in which to lead in.
21:36Do you agree with their conclusions that the mandates and the lockdowns went too far?
21:40Well, I think they also acknowledged the basis on which those decisions were being made.
21:47And I try and talk about this a bit in the book, you know, that this idea of, you know,
21:54for me saying, which things would you do differently?
21:56It's very hard to say, well, I'd not do that without knowing, would that have cost people's
22:02lives?
22:02Because these were the trade-offs.
22:05But I think they acknowledged that we were operating on certain information and in a certain
22:09environment, but with now the ability to reflect back, they would recommend doing these things
22:15differently.
22:15And I wouldn't argue with that.
22:16Yeah.
22:17And I don't think anyone's saying that you didn't try your best to do the right thing
22:20and that given the information you had at the time that you made the best decision you
22:26could.
22:26But I'm not disputing any of their findings.
22:29I'm not disputing any of the recommendations they've made or the conclusions they drew because
22:34we put them there for that reason.
22:36You might get to make that decision again, probably, but would you counsel future Prime
22:41Ministers to look at their findings and go easier on things like vaccine mandates next
22:45time and lockdowns?
22:47Well, you know, again, I would firstly, I guess, wish for them to say that they'd never have
22:52that experience.
22:54That's what I would wish for them.
22:55I'd wish for that for New Zealand too.
22:59And keep in mind, actually, you know, they, of course, acknowledge that the role that,
23:05you know, things like, you know, staying at home, the number of lives it saved, 20,000.
23:11You know, it's hard to regret that.
23:15Did vaccine mandates save any lives?
23:17I'm not the one who can answer that question for you, but I'm also not going to sit here
23:21and argue with their findings.
23:23They made their calls and they were well positioned to make them and I'm not arguing with them.
23:29They also found, of course, that they were important in areas like health care and so
23:34on.
23:34And, you know, they were relatively limited.
23:37But again, I'm not arguing with their findings.
23:40COVID was eventually over or as over as it was ever going to be.
23:44And you had an outright majority in Parliament.
23:49And the major criticism of that time between 2020 and 2023 is you didn't get enough done.
23:55That if we look around New Zealand now in 2025, there's almost no sign that the Ardern government
24:00ever existed.
24:01What's your view on that?
24:04I would disagree with you, Jessie.
24:08I would strongly disagree with you.
24:10You know, look, did COVID dominate internationally?
24:14Of course.
24:15Of course it did.
24:16Of course it did.
24:17It's hard not for a pandemic not to.
24:19But you did have a couple of clear years back in Parliament.
24:22And I'm talking about things like Three Waters and RMA and Heapuapu, all that stuff, which
24:29is all gone now.
24:31And why is it all gone?
24:33Yeah.
24:33Well, ultimately, democracy.
24:36People make decisions and they change things.
24:38And I can argue, of course, till I'm long in the tooth on whether or not that was a good
24:43idea or not.
24:44But I leave domestic politics now for the politicians who are there.
24:47But the idea that we haven't had an impact, I disagree.
24:53You know, we made a sizable difference, for instance, to families living in poverty.
24:59We focus particularly on easing the burden for families at a time where absolutely the
25:06cost of living has been a significant struggle.
25:08But, you know, the changes that were made to benefit rates in particular, starting, of course,
25:15lunch programs.
25:16And yes, people will play around with those, but they're there.
25:19Decriminalizing abortion, the Zero Carbon Act, the framework we created for climate change.
25:26You know, and also, I wouldn't underestimate the difference it makes when you demonstrate
25:30that the way you do government can be different as well.
25:34And we did, I think, create an environment where, you know, we set out to do things differently.
25:40We set out to be an empathetic government, a kind government, one that didn't make personal
25:44attacks.
25:45I think we, I hope, raise the expectation that you can do things differently.
25:50But I wonder if the lesson for some people might be that that style of government is nice
25:56to have, but it doesn't work as effectively as, I mean, I'm thinking of Trump and what
26:01he's achieved in a couple of days.
26:04But then even look at the national government and how, national coalition government and
26:08how effectively they've done so much in quite a short time because they kind of haven't
26:13worried about people's feelings and consensus and all that stuff, which most of us agree
26:18would be great to have.
26:19Well, I think if we look at two of the latest elections globally, you know, for instance,
26:26the Australian election or the election in Canada, in both of those, both incoming prime
26:33ministers, Anthony Albanese and Mark Carney, during their victory speeches talked about
26:39the importance of the value of kindness.
26:40And so I disagree with this idea that the only form of politics that is succeeding globally
26:47now is a form of politics where the small are made to feel small and the powerful dominate.
26:54I disagree with that.
26:55And voters in those two countries have obviously disagreed with that too.
26:59There's no doubt we're in a particular time and place at the moment where there is a bit
27:03of a push and pull in the political environment.
27:07I think at its heart, what we're seeing is deep financial insecurity and politicians have
27:12choices around how they respond to that.
27:15They can respond to it with fear and blame, which is some of the easiest political tricks
27:18in the book, or they can actually answer the problems that people are presenting to them.
27:24I do think ultimately it's that second, it's that harder path that is the most successful
27:29one and that I think what voters want to see as well.
27:32Your mentor, Phil Goff, has been quite critical of Trump since he's been able to.
27:36You don't have anything holding you back, but I haven't seen you say much about President
27:40Trump and what many view as a threat to democracy and, well, I could give you the list, but have
27:46you been too quiet on him?
27:48Oh, I wouldn't say that, Jessie.
27:50I think the point that I would make is that I see a particular form of political leadership
27:57that is not isolated to one individual, which I strongly rally against.
28:02You know, these forms of leadership that we're seeing.
28:06And again, we're not just seeing them in one place and we've not just seen them in the past
28:11year.
28:11They have been around for some time and we're seeing a reemergence of them and an illumination
28:17of them.
28:18They are not the only forms of leadership.
28:20I now lead a fellowship on empathetic leadership and I meet politicians and I work with politicians
28:26who do do politics differently, but the spotlight is not on them.
28:30The amplification is not on them.
28:32And sometimes the incentives aren't there for them either, but they are there.
28:36So I like to spend my time trying to raise up that form of government and that form of
28:41leadership because I think it deserves a spotlight.
28:44Trump is, of course, the face of the other style of leadership.
28:47What have you got to lose by saying his name and saying, this is what he's doing wrong
28:52and I speak out against it?
28:53There is not one person in New Zealand who would think that I favour that style of government,
29:00that type of leadership or those policies.
29:03Not one.
29:04Do you not think you could do some good globally by putting a face and a voice in it?
29:09You know, you're an incredible communicator, putting a voice to the opposition to Trump.
29:15Well, again, I'm not quite sure what you think about what I'm saying isn't standing up for
29:21an alternative form of politics.
29:22I just wrote a whole book about it, Jessie.
29:25But I think, you know, the question that you're putting to me is this idea that, you
29:29know, it's the only way, it's the only way to come out slow, you know, and solely be swinging
29:35when actually the alternative deserves a bit of time as well.
29:38So I'm choosing to talk about, not just about what's wrong, but what the alternative is,
29:45because I think that's missing from the conversation.
29:49There is so much in your book, which I would have liked to cover.
29:52We've got limited time.
29:53I'm just going to finish with some quickfire questions, if that's OK.
29:56No.
29:58Too bad.
29:59I have always, my entire career, hated the quickfire question.
30:04It's like, it's the thing that politicians are least able to do.
30:07But OK, let's go.
30:10Who's the most famous person on your phone?
30:12I'm not doing that.
30:13Clark.
30:14Come on.
30:16Clark.
30:17Have you got Stephen Colbert in there?
30:18I'm not answering those questions, that question.
30:22Really?
30:22That's like, would you go through your address book?
30:24I don't, yeah.
30:25I've always, like, I've been asked questions like that before.
30:27Do you have Helen Clark's phone number back when I, back, you know, when I was a backbench
30:31MP?
30:32I always feel like that's kind of a disclosure of other people's privacy.
30:36Which emoji do you use the most?
30:38I, I'm not even sure if, I, I use the cry, laugh one a lot.
30:44But the one that looks more like it's a sweating emoji.
30:47Is it sweating or is it crying?
30:50That one.
30:51It's a grey area.
30:54Apart from Clark, who is the New Zealander you fangirl over the most?
30:58I probably, I, I, I do, I do fangirl over Lord quite a bit.
31:04Anyone in the world you're still excited to meet?
31:09Um, yeah, lots of people.
31:12Lots of people.
31:14Um, I've never met a Michelle Obama.
31:17She would be amazing to meet.
31:19First time you had too much to drink?
31:22Oh, somewhere in my mid-twenties.
31:27Do you want more detail than that?
31:29I think I remember from the book Grant Robertson gave you the hangover cure.
31:33He did.
31:34Sausage, sausage rolls.
31:37According, according to Grant anyway, sausage rolls.
31:41First kiss?
31:42I, absolutely not.
31:46If it didn't make the book, it is not making this interview.
31:51Uh, do you regret calling David Seymour an arrogant prick?
31:55I said, what I said at the time was, as my mother said, if you've got nothing nice to say, and I think that is a good, that's a good mantra to live by.
32:01So, so I, I apologise for it and I did mean it.
32:05When your advisor said you left your microphone on, you said something about David Seymour, what did you think you'd said?
32:11I'm not going to say that on air.
32:13It's in the book.
32:14It's a family show.
32:15I can't read it out loud.
32:20It's another reason to buy the book, Jesse.
32:23What's your hype song?
32:27Shape, there's a few shapeshifter tracks I use, and sometimes Youngblood from Naked and Famous.
32:34And finally, and I quite like this as a theme of the book, what did the Queen tell you when you asked her for advice on raising a child while working?
32:45Just get on with it.
32:51Good advice to look by.