00:00How should the Chief of Defence Staff's statement be viewed?
00:03How do India's losses measure against the gains during Operation Sindhu?
00:08What does the CDS statement mean for the war of narratives that has gone on for the last few weeks between India and Pakistan?
00:16Joining me now, Air Marshal Sanjeev Kapoor, former Director General of Inspection and Safety at the IAF
00:21and Lieutenant General Satish Dua, former GOC-15 Corps Indian Army.
00:26You know, it's interesting, General Dua, that the Chief of Defence Staff should first give this statement
00:32admitting to losses to a foreign agency that goes to Reuters and Bloomberg TV.
00:37What does that say about our public diplomacy?
00:40Was that, in your view, in hindsight, an error?
00:43If he had to make these statements, should he have made it here to the domestic media,
00:48to possibly through the political class, to Parliament?
00:51Or should it have been done in the manner that it has, that has led to wide misinterpretation,
00:56particularly his statement virtually admitting the losses?
01:02Rajdeep, the question is more about the statement that the Chief of Defence Staff, General Anil Chauhan, made.
01:10You are pointedly asking me whether it is correct that he should make the statement to an international channel
01:20rather than Indian channels, before I come to that.
01:24What was the statement that was made?
01:25Let's analyze the statement.
01:27And you just played it out.
01:29But that was not the first military statement that came out on that.
01:32And it was Air Marshal Bharti in a combined press briefing to all Indian channels
01:41and many others who were present over there on the 11th evening when the statement came out.
01:47And he said, and I am going to be exact in my words.
01:50He says, we are in a combat scenario and losses are part of combat.
01:57So he did.
01:59That statement came out as an armed forces statement.
02:01Our official statement did come out.
02:04Rank or appointment does not matter.
02:06In fact, that is a very authentic statement by the Air Force representative.
02:12Let's keep for a minute political parties aside.
02:15One party questioning another party.
02:18And also, with due respect to you and your channel, let's keep the media aside
02:22because media will keep talking about such things.
02:24But the statement that was made now,
02:27Now, you see, before the last sentence I'll say before I answer your question is,
02:33the operation is still going on.
02:37It is only, Operation Sindhu has only been paused.
02:40During operations, it is armed forces call to decide when the statement will be made
02:47in terms of exact number of losses if there have been any.
02:50Right?
02:51Now to the question.
02:53I'll address your question squarely.
02:56He made that statement when he had gone for a Shangri-La dialogue
02:59and the press asked him over there.
03:02In India, he did not come in front.
03:04The CDS did not come in front of any press anywhere.
03:07The official statements were made by the DGMO
03:09and his counterparts of the Navy and the Air Force in an appropriate form.
03:14But the narrative, the headline, General Dua, whether we like it or not,
03:18across international press is India lost jets.
03:22I'm only looking at the headlines.
03:25The headlines across the world don't do India at the moment across foreign media
03:29in particular seem to suggest that India is the one which has to accept the losses.
03:34The narratives have been flying back and forth both sides.
03:41Do you remember the media channels on the 7th evening?
03:44First, our media channels were saying Karachi has been destroyed,
03:49Lahore is burning, before we backtrack.
03:51So many JF fighters have been lost.
03:56Those kind of narratives will be bandied back and forth.
03:58I cannot help the fact that this statement will be twisted, turned and used by all the media channels.
04:05But let's read the bare facts, what Air Marshal Bharti said
04:09and the Chief of Defense staff has said.
04:11He's exactly acknowledging that.
04:13Therefore, Air Marshal Kapoor, how should we see the CDS's statement
04:18in terms of our gains and losses?
04:21Now that we have a little bit more time to reflect on what happened in the 87-hour war,
04:25should we see our gains and the manner in which we were able to, in a way,
04:30bust Pakistan's nuclear deterrence strategy be seen as the major gain,
04:37going deep into Punjab, Pakistan-Panjab, targeting terror infrastructure,
04:42targeting their A-bases and thereby setting a new escalatory ladder doctrine
04:48in this country as the major gain from Operation Sindhuur
04:51and not focus on how many jets we lost.
04:55See, I'll just take a minute for you to do a list.
04:59See, the world, especially the Western one,
05:03is not very happy seeing India rising.
05:07The equipment which they are mentioning has been put down is their own.
05:11So, you have covered, I saw, in Galwan conflict.
05:17Did China ever tell the world how many soldiers did they lose?
05:21The Americans are losing their MQ-9s.
05:25Each MQ-9, for your viewers, the drone,
05:28is costing 70 million to 120 million.
05:32And they have lost 15 of them.
05:35Has anybody asked America why?
05:38Has anybody asked America how many soldiers did they lose?
05:41Did America accept that how many soldiers did they lose
05:45in Afghanistan or in Dharmu?
05:47Nobody does.
05:49No, but there is a suggestion somewhere that our Air Force,
05:52somewhere down the line, committed tactical mistakes,
05:54that we lost jets,
05:56that maybe the new age Chinese missiles and technology
05:59is something that is a real threat to our air power.
06:03I mean, surely at some stage,
06:05we are going to have to start getting realistic.
06:08But this is a changed narrative.
06:13The opposition, the enemy country,
06:15does not have anything much to show.
06:18Here we have shown everything.
06:20So now the narrative is built as if,
06:22you know, that something major has happened.
06:25And see, in a boxing ring,
06:27you keep fighting.
06:28You don't count how many punches
06:31in one gaipur, the other gaipur.
06:32Obviously, when there is a fight, there is a combat,
06:35there will be punches going from both the sides.
06:37But in the end, who won is the one which matters.
06:40Who won in the end, according to you?
06:44Who won in the end?
06:45Who won according to you?
06:46If it was so conclusive,
06:48and if we had such an operational advantage,
06:50why would we agree then to a ceasefire?
06:52These are questions that will be legitimately asked.
06:54See, it is on the 10th,
06:57it is on the 10th,
06:59that the DGMO called up our DGMO
07:01to request to seize hostilities.
07:05And it was the American president
07:07who jumped the gun and tweeted before everybody else
07:10to say that it is a ceasefire.
07:13As has been pointed out at all the forums,
07:16this is just a pause,
07:18and the operations in the formally has not been called up.
07:21So, my request to you and through you, your media friend,
07:24is that please do not rake up his issues
07:27because our soldiers...
07:28No, all the more then that CDS
07:29should not have made the statement when he did.
07:31Then he should have kept silent.
07:32You see, if you are saying
07:33Operation Sindhu is in pause
07:35and has not been completed,
07:37then why should the CDS speak about losses,
07:39numbers are not important,
07:41why get into it at all then?
07:42Then stay silent.
07:43Allow time to elapse
07:46before you make your statement.
07:47Just, you know, semantics,
07:51what he meant,
07:52I saw the thing what you have played
07:54and others also.
07:55He actually, you know,
07:57is giving a narrative from his side
07:59which the selective words have been picked up
08:02and the end aim should be
08:04did the nation or the armed forces
08:06achieve its objectives,
08:08what they set out for,
08:09and the 11 airfields and the 9 targets
08:12which we hit,
08:1320-0,
08:14that nobody will count.
08:15We have nullified 20 ground targets
08:18in these four days,
08:1920-0.
08:20So, there is no discussion on that.
08:23So, what I am saying is
08:24this narrative build-up
08:26to take the agenda on one side,
08:28I have not understood.
08:30Okay.
08:30So, in a way,
08:31therefore,
08:31General Dua should,
08:32what was just said here
08:34by Air Marshal Sanjeev Kapoor,
08:3611 air bases struck,
08:38terror infrastructure struck
08:40deep in Pakistan.
08:41Does that now reset the doctrine
08:43that we will have with Pakistan
08:45in the future?
08:47As the Prime Minister himself has said,
08:49no differentiation between
08:50non-state and state actors.
08:51You conduct a terror attack against us,
08:54we will treat it as an act of war.
08:56Is that the message
08:57that should now dominate in a way?
09:00The outreach and the messaging?
09:01The short answer, Rajdeep,
09:05is yes.
09:06Absolutely, yes.
09:08Because the Prime Minister
09:09has openly said that
09:11that's our new doctrine.
09:13An act of terror
09:14will be treated as
09:15an act of war.
09:17And...
09:18But should we also look at
09:20the black holes that might exist?
09:21This whole belief
09:22that China was really
09:23behind this attack,
09:24the Chinese technology,
09:26their missile technology,
09:27their new jet planes
09:28are changing the terms of war.
09:31We've already seen
09:32between Ukraine and Russia
09:33asymmetric warfare
09:34using drones
09:35and what that can do.
09:37Should there be also
09:38an element of introspection
09:39on our part
09:40rather than always be gung-ho?
09:44No, Rajdeep,
09:45just allow me to finish.
09:47So, the short answer is yes.
09:50We have now changed our doctrine
09:51as announced by the Prime Minister.
09:54As Sanjeev pointed out,
09:55we've hit those nine terror targets
09:57which was our first response
09:58and thereafter
09:5911 military installations
10:00and bases.
10:01in response to their strikes.
10:04Now,
10:05the Chinese platforms
10:07and fighter aircrafts
10:08are much in use
10:09by Pakistan,
10:11is well known.
10:12Now, the tussle is between...
10:14As far as ongoing combat
10:16is concerned,
10:17the CBS also mentioned,
10:18we've learnt our lessons.
10:19Even in a combat
10:21that goes well
10:22for any side,
10:23there will be lessons
10:24to be learnt.
10:25And military lessons
10:26are always learnt
10:27and it's always
10:28a work in progress.
10:29It's a continuous process
10:30that will go on.
10:31So,
10:32those lessons will be learnt,
10:33things will be put in place
10:34but we'll always have
10:35this system of...
10:36We have,
10:37like Sanjeev also mentioned,
10:38we have some Western platforms
10:39and aircrafts.
10:42Pakistan has more of Chinese platforms
10:44and aircrafts
10:45and that Chinese will jump
10:47into the play
10:48because now it's their word
10:49against...
10:51Each will try to show
10:52that their platforms
10:53are better
10:53and that the stocks,
10:55stocks of the Chinese
10:57manufacturers
10:58actually tumbled
10:59at a certain point of time.
11:00So,
11:01these are the sentiments
11:01that will keep happening
11:03but we have learnt our lessons.
11:04So did the stocks of Dassault.
11:06My point is,
11:07I don't...
11:08As a final word,
11:12is there a lesson
11:15to be learnt?
11:16Is the CDS also
11:17between the lines
11:18also indicating
11:20that there are lessons
11:20which we have learnt itself
11:22during the war?
11:23Should we therefore
11:24be a little less gung-ho
11:25and celebratory?
11:28Absolutely.
11:29The drawing boards
11:30are being redrawn
11:31each day
11:32like we just covered
11:33in the program
11:34before this.
11:35Unprecedented warfare
11:36is going on.
11:37More and more
11:38tech-intensive
11:39non-contact warfare
11:40is going on.
11:42And for your viewers,
11:43I just like to make a point.
11:44This is the first time
11:45globally
11:46the Chinese weapons
11:47have been put to use
11:49in any combat situation.
11:51Right.
11:51So,
11:51the whole world
11:52including the West,
11:54the Taiwanese,
11:55the Japanese,
11:56the Russians
11:57and us
11:58would be observing
11:59the capabilities
12:00of these weapons
12:01and I leave it at that.
12:02Okay.
12:03I'm going to leave it
12:04at that.
12:04General Air Marshall
12:05appreciate both of you
12:06joining me here
12:07on the news today.
12:08Thank you so much.
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