Indian peace activist O P Shah speaks with Tarun Basu and C Uday Bhaskar on peace prospects in subcontinent | SAM Conversation
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00:00hello welcome to sam conversation a program of south asia monitor i am tarun basu and along
00:18with my colleague commodore udai bhaskar who really needs no introduction we will be in
00:25conversation with mr opi shah who runs the center for peace and progress but is better known as a
00:35peace activist he's a kolkata based chartered accountant and management consultant by vocation
00:44but a peace activist by conviction who believes in the power of dialogue and the power of
00:54storytelling to bridge divides between countries and communities he has been pursuing his peace
01:04activism relentlessly for the past three decades or more and has initiated a number of india pakistan
01:13dialogues at the non-governmental level
01:16which even sometimes had tacit consent of the governments of the both countries as well
01:26he has been to kashmir over a hundred times yes you heard it right over a hundred times
01:33and was recently there after the palgamum killings during the two weeks when operation during the days
01:42when operation sindoor was in progress and and his relatives back home were worried sick about his
01:49well-being
01:50mr shah stayed alone in a hotel
01:55which the period where the tourists where no there were no tourists but he stuck on and kept on meeting
02:04his friends and other interlocutors so shah sab nice to speak to you welcome to sam conversation
02:13and my first question naturally to you is what made you go to kashmir at this time and what did you gain out of it
02:23the visit to kashmir now was obviously for the event which happened on 22nd of april
02:33and friends from kashmir rang me several times that i must be there i had made my plans to be in kashmir
02:43little later before the event took place because i was supposed to be in pakistan in connection with the release
02:51of second volume of our book in pursuit of peace improving indopark relations what i saw in kashmir was
03:03absolute silence and total support of the people of kashmir in condemnation of the unfortunate incident
03:16which took place on 22nd april they were trying their best to help the extended
03:26tourists and they wanted tourists to continue to visit kashmir in that process obviously several
03:35things happened which did annoy people of jamu and kashmir if time permits we'll discuss that later
03:44so how many days did you spend in kashmir in all i was there from 5th of may till 18th of may
03:53and you met a number of political leaders as well then well i met several political leaders
04:00i met faruq abdullah i met nizami nizamuddin bhat congress mla i met tari gami sahab who is cpm mla
04:14and then i met a large number of activists political activists not so well known and the social and
04:26peace activists every day from nine in the morning till nine in the night i used to either visit people
04:34or people who used to come and see me in the hotel the difficulty of visiting people or people coming to
04:41my hotel there was no problem because whatever took place even in the days of when the operation was
04:49on it was only in the night when uh the operation in the two cents took place but people will were
04:58worried about it because they were extremely happy when the ceasefire took place but they were worried
05:05till then and the worry continues to be even now because we still say the operation has been suspended
05:15temporarily it is not over as yet and uh from both sides both in india and pakistan uh very unpleasant
05:25voices keep coming mr shah i'm very glad to make your acquaintance because again i have heard of you
05:35and i've heard about your very very valuable work and when tarun mentioned that it would be possible for
05:42us to invite you to be part of the sam conversations i was very happy because we need more committed peace
05:54activists like you and over the last two decades plus both tarun and i in our own ways
06:03have been associated with some of these efforts at trying to promote the dialogue between india and
06:09pakistan you may recall that there was a forum of the south asia media representative yeah i was in touch
06:21with the forum i remember when the meeting took place and uh that was of democracy but more or less
06:28similar forum in calvata i was a part of that you know the media plays a very important role as i said
06:34this is more than two decades old and again unfortunately and i say this with a lot of regret
06:40i don't think we were able to obtain the results that the peace constituency
06:50on both sides was seeking so it's in that context i want to commend you for your commitment
06:57at a time when speaking of peace was not particularly favored because of the kind of emotions that we have
07:08seen after the 22nd of april so that having been said and the fact that you spent almost two weeks
07:16weeks when the situation was not only tense but one of anguish and grief given the fact that there was this
07:25kind of a massacre by the perpetrators of innocent tourists with your experience
07:33i think this is the question that we would all like to seek some response from you
07:40do you see any light at the end of the tunnel
07:45meaning is there any hope any sort of sense that we should be working in a small way and restore
07:53first of all the hope that there can be peace so that is my sort of first kind of you know issue
07:58that i'd like you to share your thoughts with us i'm absolutely sure that there is a light at the
08:04end of the tunnel when i took up the task of bringing about the second volume of the book that i was
08:14talking about the first volume came about three years back the kind of response that i received for
08:21friends in pakistan a lot of people wanted to write article and i was not in a position to accommodate some
08:34of them because we had a deadline we wanted to bring about the book and get it released in the first
08:42quarter of 2025 so i see a lot of hope and i find large number of people of jammu and kashpir both sides
08:54want to be associated with this kind of effort because they are the first victims whenever any
08:59unfortunate even take place they suffer the most they this time also it's the people in
09:10punch and razori in jammu and kashmir were the real victims they suffered the most from pakistan side it
09:18is also the people on the border so any effort in this direction they will come the ceasefire which
09:26took place several years back was considered an extremely good step by the people of jammu and kashmir
09:34the border area people because then they can sleep comfortably otherwise they have to use bunkers to
09:41have a regular sleep because the fire keep coming from both sides so i see the hope and i find a lot of
09:53response people on a regular basis do contact me i find there is hardly a day that i don't either make
10:04or receive at least two three four phone calls from friends in pakistan they really want things to happen
10:10and there are people who speak extremely good language which uh would promote the cause of peace and
10:19understanding there are people in pakistan who are committed to this cause you know i'm very happy to
10:26hear what you're saying that there still is a small constituency that remains committed to or would like to
10:36see the slow and gradual return of peace and amity and in this context in your earlier observation you
10:45said there are some very ugly voices that we are hearing on both sides and some of them have been
10:52very extreme again on both sides and my own work as a security analyst i have been looking at the nuclear
11:01issue and you will recall that in the immediate aftermath of april 22nd and operation sindoor when it
11:10began here there were some very what i would describe as intemperate references to the use of nuclear weapons
11:18and the suggestion as some voices and i think that word is appropriate ugly voices had even gone to the
11:25extent of suggesting he used the nuclear weapon egg bar khatam kardo you know a sense that if you use the
11:32nuclear weapon the issue will get resolved which is very very to my mind i'm voicing my personal opinion
11:38this is a sensitive subject in india also it is very irresponsible given the kind of enormity
11:46and the apocalyptic capability of any nuclear weapon so that having been said you know i was very very
11:53pleasantly surprised over the last few days literally 24 48 hours amidst all the anger and all what i would
12:02call as the push that we must maintain the military pressure and force pakistan to act in a certain
12:11manner which has been said i think by one constituency in india also i'm sure there is a similar group or a
12:18voice in pakistan which sees pakistan as a victim and so on so forth there was a very small video clip
12:26which used the word surgical strike by india perhaps you have seen it i'm not aware i don't know you
12:32have seen it but this is a reference to a young girl from a place near karachi who apparently was born
12:41with cerebral palsy and she had a very serious condition shasa perhaps you are aware of this incident
12:47yeah yeah then this is the case where dr krishnan from apollo hospital carries out this very complex
12:55surgery and the voices in pakistan are praising india and praising indians particularly doctors like
13:04dr krishnan and the other team members for carrying out a surgical strike of this type meaning that young
13:11girl was brought from karachi to india to new delhi i think this was in 2017 or 18 i forget the exact date
13:20but it was a success story and now she was a poor young child who for 10 or 12 years was unable to turn
13:26her neck because of some accident and the cerebral palsy kind of case i think the name of the place is
13:32miti near karachi and her name is afsheem gul or i could be wrong on the detail but this was very
13:39encouraging to me that a video of this type is even being circulated and shared which means that
13:48there is a small constituency and people like you are in a way irrigating it if i could use that word
13:55that you're irrigating the ecosystem i dare say you have counterparts in pakistan so what is your
14:01specific suggestion you know in terms of we are now in the end of may as you rightly pointed out from
14:08the indian side operation sindur is only suspended it is yeah it was kept in abeyance whatever language
14:18you're going to use so under this against in in this context what would you suggest you know as
14:24immediate kind of steps for a community or a group that also would like to see peace and amity
14:31and south asia monitor has what i would call as a small footprint in india in pakistan in bangladesh
14:38and the entire south asia region serious people who are thinking about these issues in a very objective
14:44and constructive way so what would be your suggestion to the sam you know group or sam family yeah let us meet
14:53as often as uh possible uh zoom meeting as many as possible and i have one or two things in mind which
15:03i'm discussing with a group uh this evening and once we kind of takes uh have a thorough discussion i'll come
15:12out with one or two more ideas if the activists don't lose hope if they don't give up people like you who are
15:22uh known committed persons for this kind of a cause if they don't lose hope then i see no reason that we
15:32will ultimately succeed because in any case this is the only course which people all over the world want
15:40who wants violence who wants killings all the time people want normal life you know i was telling tarun bhai
15:53the other day he says after seventh morning the number of phone calls that i received from my family members
16:01and friends and friends and relatives i never received that many calls they were worried about my safety
16:10if they were worried about the safety of one person imagine 70 80 legs people live in the valley
16:18where can you take them do you wish to send them to premature death
16:24you don't want to go then go to the hell so that is why since most people i mean i did not meet a single
16:36person in the valley who said they don't want better relations between india and pakistan and they
16:44say whatever they can do they will be too happy to do it and they told me many times a lot of them
16:52peace treat us as your soldiers in this task of promoting peace and greater understanding between
16:58india and pakistan so i see hope and a lot of them wanted to say we want to be associated with your
17:06projects with your work so there is a big constituency i would not call it very small the small is the one
17:16one who cry most those who make big speeches from the air conditioned tv studios they are in fact in the minority
17:29but since they have the media at their command so they succeed in creating an impression that people
17:38want those kinds of action which they recommend through their uh discussions channels yeah most people in the valley
17:48are very unhappy with the media he says if the media in in india meaning what we call the mainland
17:58the mainland media if this conduct their affairs like a true instrument of fourth state then things will
18:11improve uh considerably between india and pakistan and between new delhi and srinagar also you know the
18:20amount of misunderstanding which happens now and then will not happen if the media plays a responsible
18:29constructive and positive role and if that happens that will be extremely good for the subcontinent
18:36you know sorry to sound a little skeptical if not even cynical and that is possibly because of my own
18:45media background of several decades but you know the mood is still even some weeks after the
18:53ceasefire came into effect the mood is still pretty hostile even yesterday prime minister modi talked about
18:59golika badla goli and even in pakistan similar hostile sentiments are being expressed aggressive and hostile
19:07sentiments are being expressed now that day when you were talking it struck me that there was a friend
19:13of yours i forget in from pakistan who said that the governments can keep on fighting the
19:20leaders can keep on fighting but why punish the people why should ordinary people like you and me i mean
19:27across the border be punished and what can the people do in these circumstances where things that mahol as
19:36you call it is not just very negative but pretty hostile uh and in kashmir for the first time
19:46the entire population of the valley condemned this and said that we are behind every effort which people
19:54of india make in this direction now this is the kind of atmosphere that environment that we have so it's
20:02not that if we are fighting a lost um case and outlet there are people who are who want blood for blood
20:13who said goli ka jawab goli se dena hai but there are people who are also saying that goli ka jawab goli se
20:22dene se kaam nahi hoga and they talk about the scriptures they talk about what happened during ramayan days and maharat days
20:32ultimately lord ram also said that the war is the biggest enemy of mankind and the human race will
20:44be a winner only when we are able to bring about truth and justice without the help of war
20:54and the same thing lord krishna so people who are also religious by and large an average indian is
21:13a religious person if we take this brighter message to them then these things uh would be different
21:23i'm not one who has lost hope and i am i consider this it's a kind of a blessing in disguise this is
21:30the most appropriate time if some of us can gather courage and work around the clock then we can think
21:39of changing the whole scenario in the subcontinent and we can have the best of relations between india
21:46and pakistan after all people understand
21:54very very true mr shah i think you know you have made a very insightful observation about
22:02the kind of humanism that we all have in different ways and your reference to the ramayan
22:08and what krishna had said in the bhagavad-gita are all very very i think appropriate at this point
22:15and in a modern context i think we have to also recall what mahatma gandhi had said
22:20that if we follow a very narrow track of an eye for an eye the whole world would be blind
22:26true so i think in that sense i'd like to thank you on behalf of south asia monitor and tarun for this
22:33conversation and before we close i would just perhaps request you to share with us again at an
22:39appropriate time whatever be the deliberations that you and your group are private and see whether we
22:47can increase the number of stakeholders in peace particularly the younger generation i think that
22:53is something we look forward to so on that note allow me to thank you and tarun thank you also for
23:00putting this together thank you thank you thank you very much in the time thank you very much and
23:06we should do this again very soon