Inside the Meta monopoly trial | The Vergecast - video Dailymotion

The Verge

After more than a month of testimony, the Meta antirust trial is beginning to slow down. The Google search remedies trial, meanwhile, is about to heat up again, with closing arguments coming soon. The Verge’s Lauren Feiner has been in the DC courthouse for all of it, and has finally emerged to tell us about what she’s seen, and learned, from two all-important monopoly trials. After that, The Verge’s Victoria Song tells us about her latest experience with Google’s smart glasses prototypes, what Google is doing differently from Meta and Apple, and what she thinks Jony Ive and OpenAI might be building. Finally, we answer a question on the Vergecast Hotline about what to do now that Mozilla is shutting down Pocket.

Transcript

00:00:00Welcome to the Vergecast, the flagship podcast of endless litigation. I'm your friend David

00:00:07Pierce, and I am sitting here down one of the deepest rabbit holes I have been down

00:00:12in a long time. So I started reading this book called Riptide, which I bought just sort of on

00:00:17a whim because it was like on sale for a dollar and it had good reviews. It's about treasure

00:00:21hunters. So I started reading this book, got very into this book. It's very good. Highly recommend

00:00:25it. And this has sent me just spiraling in the weirdest, most fun way on all things treasure

00:00:32hunters and shipwrecks. So there's this great New Yorker story about treasure hunters from a bunch

00:00:38of years ago. There's a great story from much more recently about shipwreck detectives. I've literally,

00:00:43I bought the game Uncharted to go play it now. I watched the movie Uncharted the other night.

00:00:48I'm reading about treasure hunters. I'm watching documentaries about treasure hunters. This is

00:00:52like a whole universe of basically puzzle solvers that is full of technology and full of interesting

00:01:00ways that people are doing research. It's like all kinds of just my interests colliding all at once.

00:01:07And I make fun of my wife all the time because she loves every true crime show you can possibly

00:01:12imagine. But I'm realizing that I am falling deep into like the treasure hunter world for exactly the

00:01:18same reason. And it is blowing my mind. And it's also the only thing I care about. So if I bring

00:01:24up treasure hunting 65 times, or if three verge casts from now, I'm just coming to you from the

00:01:30bow of a ship, attempting to find several hundred years worth of treasure, you'll know this is how it

00:01:35all started. Anyway, as much as I can, that is not what we are here to do today. Today on the show,

00:01:41we're going to do two things. First, I'm going to talk to Lauren Feiner, who finally,

00:01:44finally emerged from a courtroom and is going to talk to me about the Google trial and the

00:01:51meta trial and everything that we've learned about the antitrust case for and against two of the

00:01:56biggest companies in tech. Then V song is going to come on and we're going to talk about smart

00:02:00glasses. She was at Google IO last week, she saw the Android XR glasses. She's seen Project Muhan,

00:02:06Samsung and Google's project before. We have thoughts on what Johnny and I of an open AI are up to.

00:02:12We have a lot to talk about. It's a very fun show and V thinks more deeply about smart glasses than

00:02:17just about anybody I know. So we're gonna have some fun. We also have a hotline question about

00:02:21Pocket, the read later app, which is shutting down. People wanted some alternatives. I have

00:02:25some ideas for you. We're going to get into all of that in just a second. But first, I'm going to

00:02:31go play Uncharted. It just finished downloading and I'm going to go play it and then we'll be right

00:02:34back. This is the Verge cast. See you in a sec. All right, we're back. Lauren Feiner is here. Hi,

00:02:42Lauren. Hi. I have been trying to drag you out of a courtroom to come talk to me on the Verge cast

00:02:48for like six weeks now. And we finally made it happen. This is very exciting. I'm finally here.

00:02:54I like real quick, just give me like an emotional check on how you're feeling after this much time

00:03:00sitting in mostly the meta trial, but also some of the Google trial down the hall. How are you holding

00:03:06up? It's good. You know, I've gotten a lot of my steps in going between the courtrooms and media

00:03:12rooms, running up and down the stairs. Yeah, a little bit of Stockholm syndrome as we were just

00:03:19talking about. But, you know, overall, it's, you know, it's good to be on the other side. It's a

00:03:25little bittersweet because this is such a historic time, I think, that like so much has converged in

00:03:31this one courthouse. And I've been covering these cases since they were filed. So it is kind of crazy

00:03:38that it's now somewhat in the rear view. But, you know, there's still a long way to go. So don't

00:03:44worry about that. It is a weird time in that this moment feels both hugely consequential and also just

00:03:52kind of procedural. And I've been trying to figure this out about the Google trial in particular. It's

00:03:56like we're in a phase where a judge has to decide whether to break up Google, which is huge. But then

00:04:03Google is like, we don't care what happens. We're just going to appeal and we're going to do this all

00:04:06over again several times. And so part of me is like, what are we even what are we even doing here?

00:04:11But it's also so important what's happening here. Exactly. And I think, you know, this it's so clear to me

00:04:17with the Facebook case in particular, like how long it took for them to get to trial. And part of

00:04:24that was because the initial complaint was thrown out. And then the judge gave the FTC an opportunity

00:04:30to refile. But the original case was filed like in 2020. And, you know, the fact that it took this

00:04:38long to get to trial and in that time, TikTok became a huge player in the space. It's just,

00:04:45you know, really underscores how quickly tech moves and how slowly the legal system moves.

00:04:52Yeah, I think I mostly want to talk about the meta trial because I think a we've we've talked a bunch

00:04:56about the Google trial and be I think in a certain way, it's a little more straightforward just because

00:05:00of where it is in the process. We kind of know what everybody wants. We know what's going on.

00:05:04The meta trial, I think, last, last we talked was at the very beginning. And there was the sense that,

00:05:12okay, the FTC is trying to prove a thing that is going to be very complicated to prove, which is

00:05:18essentially that me we is very important, right? Like, we were having this big debate about whether

00:05:25this is the service that people go to that has monopolized talking to friends and family that

00:05:30that is like, that's the market and that we're gonna spend a lot of time over the next six weeks

00:05:34arguing about the market definition of this thing. And I think to your point, I hadn't really thought

00:05:39about this until you just said it. But I think this would have been a really different trial

00:05:42five years ago than it was. So much has changed in the market since this thing got filed originally.

00:05:51But I'm curious now, we at the very beginning, we were like, okay, this is going to ultimately be

00:05:55about market definition. And it seems like the FTC has a pretty steep hill to climb to prove its case

00:06:01here. How do you feel about how that's gone on the other side of this?

00:06:05Yeah, I mean, I think market definition is still going to be at the crux of the judge's decision

00:06:12here. And, you know, I think, as part of that, it's how important is, you know, this kind of core

00:06:21use case that the FTC is pointing to of, you know, being able to go on Facebook and Instagram to share

00:06:27things with your friends and family and see what they're doing. How important is that still to

00:06:34these apps and, you know, this market that they've laid out that they say that meta dominates.

00:06:41And, you know, I think what is interesting here is it doesn't have to be necessarily that it's the

00:06:48main thing people do on these apps anymore. But the judge has to feel like it's important enough

00:06:56still, that it's, you know, something that meta can monopolize, that it matters to consumers,

00:07:02that it's not something that's like, you know, gonna die in a year or so. So I think, you know,

00:07:08when I read comments on stories, we write about this, I see people saying, yeah, I don't feel like

00:07:14I can connect with my friends and family as well on these apps anymore. And I think that's something

00:07:18that we hear a lot. So, you know, obviously, that's very anecdotal. But, you know, the judge is

00:07:23going to have to decide, is that a few users who just really want to see what their grandchildren

00:07:30are doing on Facebook? Or is this really an important use case for consumers?

00:07:37Right. And it seems to me like, I think you're right, there's a lot going on here. But it does

00:07:41seem like a lot of the rest of it is downstream of that question, right? Because if the thing we're

00:07:47litigating here was, was it illegal for meta, then Facebook to buy Instagram and WhatsApp,

00:07:55the way you get there is by saying, Facebook was where people went to hang out with their friends.

00:08:01And then Instagram and WhatsApp showed up providing competitive ways to hang out with their friends.

00:08:06And so Facebook bought them to do to essentially quash a competitor, right? Like, is it that line

00:08:13actually, to me, has gotten sort of straighter and straighter over the course of this case that

00:08:17you don't have to believe that logic? And I think the question will come down to whether the judge

00:08:22believes that logic. But increasingly, to me, it feels like it is that few steps. If you start from

00:08:27Facebook is a place where people hang out with friends and family. That's how you that's how you

00:08:31get where the FTC is trying to go. And it seems like that has actually sort of crystallized over the

00:08:36last several weeks.

00:08:37Exactly. Yeah. And I think, you know, it's it's a less straightforward case than the one meta wants

00:08:42to make, which is that, of course, we compete with TikTok and YouTube, because we're all you know,

00:08:48everyone has many people have all these apps on their phone, and we're competing for people's time

00:08:53and attention to make sure they click on ours. But, you know, I think what the FTC has been arguing

00:09:00did become more clear throughout trial that they're saying, you know, Facebook was worried that

00:09:07Instagram was going to compete with it at this time when it was struggling to do the shift from desktop

00:09:15to mobile, and Instagram was built on mobile. And it worried that it would become a real threat to its

00:09:23power. And with WhatsApp, I think maybe the argument is a little bit less clear, because it's so evident that

00:09:31the founders really were not interested in building a social network, although they've tried to undermine

00:09:37that argument a little bit. But I think ultimately, the fear was also, well, maybe they don't want to

00:09:44do it, but maybe Google buys them and Google is able to make, you know, this major social platform

00:09:51by leveraging this power that WhatsApp has.

00:09:55Well, the other part of the WhatsApp one that is so interesting to me, and I confess that throughout

00:09:59this, I have found the WhatsApp piece of this to be vastly more interesting than the Instagram

00:10:03side of things. I think, in a certain way, the Instagram thing is more sort of straightforward,

00:10:07which is maybe why it's less interesting to me. It's like, it was a competitor, and did Meta buy it

00:10:13and help it, or buy it and hurt it? It's like, that's the question. You can do that, you can do

00:10:17with that what you will. But there's like, it's so funny to rewind back to like 2013, before all of this

00:10:22is happening. WhatsApp was a completely different animal. It was like, they were charging people a dollar

00:10:28a year to like message their friends around the world. And it was growing like crazy. And it was

00:10:32a whole different thing. And you never heard about them. And like 11 people worked at the company and

00:10:36they had no ambitions, or so it seemed of being anything more than just that. And yet, it was

00:10:43taking over the world, right? And I think this is the thing that I keep just sort of spinning around

00:10:48in my head is like, at least from what I can tell, and from what you've been reporting, there's been a ton

00:10:53of evidence to suggest that Facebook was terrified of how popular WhatsApp was becoming.

00:10:58Both because in theory, it could become that popular, and then add a bunch of other social

00:11:02networking stuff. But also because even back then, it seems like Facebook understood that group chat was

00:11:08going to win. And that like, pretty fundamentally, messaging among friends was going to be the actual

00:11:14next phase of social networking. And that if WhatsApp did that, even if they didn't make any money off of

00:11:19it, it was a huge threat to Facebook's business, if people went and used this, like, adorable,

00:11:26mostly free service that had no ambitions of ever trying to be a trillion dollar company. And I just,

00:11:30it's such a weird thing. Like it both was and was not a competitor. I cannot figure out how to weigh

00:11:36those things in my head.

00:11:38Yeah, it's so fascinating, because I think one of the core arguments that kept coming up when it came to

00:11:43WhatsApp was like, no, seriously, the founders of WhatsApp do not want to build a social network.

00:11:49They have absolutely no interest. They don't want to have an ad model, like no one is going to

00:11:54strong arm them into it. And, you know, even when Brian Acton, the co-founder, came and testified

00:12:00this past week, you know, he kind of said that too. I was not interested in an ad model. I did not want

00:12:07to build a feed into WhatsApp. And my investors were not going to make me. But I think interestingly,

00:12:15on cross-examination, the FTC was kind of able to pull out, well, you know, when you signed this deal

00:12:22with Meta, you understood that the value, the valuation they were giving you came in part from,

00:12:30you know, them thinking about how this would work in an ad-supported business. And he wasn't able to

00:12:36get them to completely rule out ever running ads on WhatsApp. I think there was some language about

00:12:41monetization in their contract. But, you know, it seemed like they, he at least went into it,

00:12:48knowing that this was a possibility. And despite all the resistance, maybe if push came to shove

00:12:54one day, WhatsApp would have had an ad-supported model or, you know, would have allowed some social

00:13:01features or sold to another company that would have made it into, leveraged it into a social play.

00:13:06Yeah. I thought that was so interesting. And I really liked the thing you said at one point that

00:13:11it came up in testimony that Facebook overpaid by somewhere between six and $10 billion for its

00:13:17actual valuation of WhatsApp. And it's like, oh yeah, okay. Everyone understood that this was a

00:13:22massive overpay for the thing that you were getting. And the inclination was there's, there's,

00:13:28you know, there's, there's money in the couch cushions here. And, and Facebook was actually

00:13:31probably better equipped to get it than almost anybody. And ironically, never really figured it

00:13:36out. Like we're still here in 2025 and WhatsApp is like, you know, titanically popular all over the

00:13:42world and is still not like the earth shattering, the humongous business that it needs to be to be

00:13:48worth that valuation. So like history has proven all of that to just be more and more complicated

00:13:53over time. Um, but what, what do you make of the, the WhatsApp side of it in particular? Do you

00:13:58think, do you think the, the story that is being told by Meta about what WhatsApp was going to be,

00:14:06or might've been planning to be, or why it could have been a threat or whatever? Is that,

00:14:10is that working? Who, who is winning this side of the argument here? Do you think?

00:14:14I think it's hard to tell. Um, it's, I think it's just a really, it's kind of complicated because

00:14:20there are some things that seem like they could cut both ways. Um, for example, um, you know,

00:14:25they show that there were several of these messaging apps that were really exploding at the

00:14:30time. And WhatsApp was particularly exploding and exploding in a lot of different markets where

00:14:35some of these other apps like KakaoTalk or Line or WeChat were really more like localized to a certain

00:14:41region. But WhatsApp was actually the only one of those that wasn't really expanding into social

00:14:47features. So arguably it's one that was not, was, you know, the least competitive with Facebook's

00:14:53business. And that's the one that Facebook decided to go after. Um, but on the other hand,

00:14:58you know, it was exploding in growth and, you know, they saw potential for it maybe in different

00:15:03ways than they saw for these other apps. Um, and so, you know, maybe that's a reason they did end up

00:15:09going after it. So, um, I think there's a lot of things like that where it's hard to fully tell

00:15:15which way the judge is going to ultimately take it. Um, and I think it's also tough when you hear

00:15:22over and over from the founders themselves, from everyone who's testified, who had insight into the

00:15:27founders that they did not want to sell ads, they were not going to be pushed over by their

00:15:33investors. Mark Zuckerberg said he was surprised that, you know, they basically just wanted to

00:15:38run a lifestyle company and compared it to Craigslist. You know, like these were painted as

00:15:44like extremely unambitious people in a certain way.

00:15:48As if that's like an outrageously horrible thing to want is to just be Craigslist.

00:15:54Right. But it's also, it's somewhat hard to believe when then you're seeing, well,

00:15:58these are founders who got billions of dollars for this app that they created. Like,

00:16:03were they really that unambitious and were they really going to, you know, leave their investors

00:16:09and their employees hanging at the end of the day?

00:16:11They did go buy yachts. You know what I mean? Like at some point you did buy a yacht.

00:16:15Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I think, I think that's right. And it, one of the things that has struck

00:16:22me just in, in reading your reporting is that it, it seems so much like the, the vibe in the

00:16:28courtroom has just sort of whipsawed back and forth in a way that I think I'm not used to in

00:16:33covering a lot of these trials. You sort of see momentum kind of builds and, and waxes and wanes a

00:16:39little bit, but it feels like even like witness to witness in this, you've had these like wildly

00:16:44different stories about what's going on. And I just think about like from, from Kevin Systrom to

00:16:49Adam Masseri talking about what's going on at Instagram, even with the same people asking them

00:16:54the same kinds of questions, just completely different perspectives on how all of this has

00:16:59worked. And on the one hand, like, of course that's true. But on the other hand, this whole thing

00:17:03just strikes me as like, it has gotten sort of more unknowable than ever over time. And like on

00:17:10the Instagram side, it seems like the, the big question is, did Meta help or hurt Instagram,

00:17:15right? Like, is that, is that a, am I overgeneralizing to say that's kind of what it boils down to?

00:17:20Yeah, I think for sure. And I think we saw that, especially in Kevin Systrom's testimony,

00:17:26the co-founder of Instagram, where, you know, it was really about, okay, you know, he took this,

00:17:34you know, he took this offer from Meta thinking that they're really going to help grow the company.

00:17:39And in a lot of ways, it's really hard to look at Instagram and see, you know, billions of users and,

00:17:46you know, this huge platform for advertising and think that it's could have been more successful

00:17:54than it is today. But on the other hand, Kevin Systrom seemed pretty confident that it could

00:18:01be, and he could have done it himself. And that, you know, Meta withheld resources for growth, for

00:18:07integrity, that, you know, they could have used to make Instagram better in various ways. So,

00:18:14you know, it's really hard to say, you know, is this just, you know, some, another Silicon Valley

00:18:20executive just, like, blowing steam? Or is this, you know, really what could have happened?

00:18:27And I think it's, you know, that's always the challenge in antitrust cases is what would have

00:18:33happened if, you know, this major event didn't occur?

00:18:36Have they used the phrase, the but for world a lot?

00:18:38Oh, yes.

00:18:39The Google case has also been full of the but for world.

00:18:43Yes.

00:18:43Which I enjoy very much. And it's like a phrase I say to myself all the time now. And I'm like, well,

00:18:47in a but for world, I wouldn't be having goldfish right now. But today I'm eating goldfish. It's very

00:18:54good. Have you found yourself as an observer being in the courtroom all day, leaning towards one side

00:19:01or the other of the Instagram argument? Are you compelled by one version of the argument or the

00:19:07other?

00:19:08I mean, I'd say it's not necessarily that I'm compelled one way or the other, but I fear,

00:19:13I find that the FTC has a pretty tough case here because I think it's just, it's not that

00:19:22they can't win it and not that, you know, they haven't presented strong arguments. I just think

00:19:27it's obviously they have the burden to begin with. And it's really difficult looking at Instagram and

00:19:36seeing, you know, at one point, Meta's chief marketing officer, Alex Schultz, testified about

00:19:42how they, Instagram has seen such growth that, you know, they have reached almost like all of the

00:19:50something like 250 million potential, you know, smartphone, eligible smartphone users in the US

00:19:56who could possibly be on this app. And to grow any more than that is, you know, that's really

00:20:06going to happen at a much slower rate than it used to. And so later on, Judge Bozberg had brought that

00:20:13up to the FTC's expert and said, you know, could it really, you know, could this really have been

00:20:18more successful than where it is now? They have like almost all the users they could get.

00:20:24Um, and I think that makes this really challenging. Um, but at the same time, I guess the argument from

00:20:31the FTC is, well, yeah, they have all these users, but they have nowhere else to go. Um, so, you know,

00:20:38that's kind of the point there. Um, yeah, I think it's just, it's difficult because we're in a world now

00:20:45with TikTok. Um, and, you know, I think friends and family does seem like it's still important. Um,

00:20:54the question is just how important and for how long talk me through that actually. Cause I think,

00:20:59uh, it was, it was Tom Allison, the head of Facebook who was on the stand just the other

00:21:03day, right. Talking about this. Um, and he like some other meta employees who have testified during

00:21:10this trial kind of seemed to argue out of both sides of their mouth about like, yes, these are

00:21:16platforms where people connect with friends and family and that is important. And it is core to what

00:21:21we're doing. And Mark Zuckerberg is out here in the meanwhile, like talking about OG Facebook and

00:21:24wanting to bring all that back. And yet over and over, these people seem very happy to talk about

00:21:30the fact that actually, no, this isn't for friends and family at all. Help me figure out what's really

00:21:36going on there. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think this is a really interesting element of this trial. And I

00:21:43think something where I think the FTC does have something to kind of sink their teeth in here.

00:21:50And I think with, um, Tom Allison's testimony, one thing that was interesting to me was when they

00:21:56brought up, um, this new kind of, yeah, the OG Facebook, um, where they're focusing back in on

00:22:02connecting with your friends, like bring you back to your roots. And to me, that felt like some kind

00:22:08of internal recognition from Meta that this is still something people want. Um, and, you know,

00:22:14I think the company was kind of arguing, well, yeah, like we know this is something that some

00:22:20people want. And the fact is that now, because most people really, you know, they might tell us

00:22:27they want to see friends and family, but if we only show them friends and family posts, they're going

00:22:31to leave. And so that their actions kind of tell us they want more engaging content than whatever,

00:22:36you know, your uncle is posting on Facebook. So they end up putting more, you know, unconnected

00:22:42content, content from people you don't follow in your feed. Um, so, you know, one thing that was

00:22:47interesting was Tom Allison said, if you did really want to see only your friends content, you'd have

00:22:53to scroll like all day to see all of it because you'd have so much of this unconnected content in

00:23:00between. So, you know, they figure for the people who really want to see that, let's stick it in a tab

00:23:05and they can go to it when they want. Um, so, you know, on the one hand, maybe that says that,

00:23:11you know, this is really something that's a novelty or, you know, just a small part of what

00:23:18we do. And now a bigger part is all of this like algorithmically recommended content. Um,

00:23:25but on the other hand, you could say, well, they're recognizing that it is something that's

00:23:29still important, even if it's less important than, um, you know, things like reels and things

00:23:35of that nature. Um, and I think that's why we heard throughout trial, Meadow would say

00:23:41something like, well, you know, it's becoming a much smaller part of our business. And then

00:23:47the FTC would ask, well, but in absolute terms, is it still growing? And the answer would usually

00:23:53be yes. Um, so, you know, yes, it's small, but small on, you know, a really large base.

00:24:00Right. Well, I mean, to me, it makes me think of like, have you ever heard the saying that there

00:24:04are, there are three yous, there's the you, you think you are the you, other people think you are.

00:24:07And then the you, you actually are like, I've been thinking about this so much with Facebook

00:24:11in the context of this whole trial that like the, the you that Facebook thinks it is,

00:24:16has always been about friends and family, right? Like it is, it is a place for real people to

00:24:20connect to real people. And I think that is like the reason Zuckerberg is so into this idea of the

00:24:26OG Facebook is partly about people use it, but it's also about like, that is, that is his conception

00:24:31of what this thing does and why it is important and why it is valuable and why it became what it is

00:24:35now. I don't think Mark Zuckerberg's conception of why Facebook is great is because it shows you all

00:24:42the AI nonsense. Right. But I think, I think that's what people see on Facebook now. That is,

00:24:47that is our conception of Facebook. And that is what Facebook has become for so many of us.

00:24:50Like, I don't, I have probably been on Facebook to see what my friends are up to

00:24:55one time in the last decade. Otherwise it's like marketplace and groups. That's it. That's what

00:25:02Facebook is for me. And I think that's true for a lot of people. And so this question of like,

00:25:06I just keep seeing people on the stand be like, okay, yes, I said in an interview that it's for

00:25:11friends and family. Yes. It's on our website that it's for friends and family. Yes. We tell people all

00:25:16the time that it's for friends and family, but when you look at how people actually use it,

00:25:19it's not remotely for friends and family. And like there was the thing, Tom, I think it was Tom

00:25:25Allison who said a lot of people now make Facebook accounts and have no friends. Yeah. And that to me

00:25:30is so, that was such an eyeopening moment of like, oh, that is a complete inversion of the whole idea

00:25:35of what Facebook was supposed to be when we get to that point. Exactly. Yeah. That was really

00:25:40interesting. And, you know, I think he's basically saying those people maybe are going on marketplace

00:25:44groups, whatever. But I also think that I bet, and this would be an interesting experiment to run,

00:25:49you could show up on Facebook, make zero friends and still have an infinite feed of content

00:25:54immediately. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And that's what makes the experience so different than it used to be.

00:25:59But I think at the same time, like, if I just think as like a very casual social media user,

00:26:05if I'm going to go and talk, like, try to see what a friend's up to, or, you know, message them or

00:26:12something, I'm not really going to TikTok. And that's kind of their point here. I'm going to

00:26:17Instagram or Facebook. Right. And, you know, maybe I'm doing those things less on Instagram and Facebook

00:26:22in general than I used to. And maybe I'm doing more of it in just regular old messaging. But,

00:26:28you know, I'm not really going to TikTok for that. And maybe some people are. But TikTok's,

00:26:35one of TikTok's executives even said that their friends tab, about like 1% of users are watching

00:26:42videos in there. So I honestly didn't know the friends tab existed until they said that on the

00:26:47stand. Like straight up had no idea. Yeah. Yeah, I think to me, that has actually been the most

00:26:53compelling part of the FTC's argument here is that it's not necessarily that this is the main thing

00:26:59people do. It's that if this is what you want to do, there is nowhere else to go. And the reason

00:27:06there is nowhere else to go is because of Facebook. Like, that's just true. Whether you can prove that

00:27:11in court, I don't know. But like, you and I have been covering this space to know, long enough to know

00:27:18that like Facebook ate that market. It just did. And then we get back to the question of like,

00:27:23if Instagram had been left alone, could it have done? And so that's a whole separate thing. But

00:27:26but that piece of it, I find very compelling that the FTC is like, this is a thing people want to do.

00:27:33And you have made sure that there is nowhere else for them to do it. And I think every time that

00:27:37they've done a successful job of coming back to that is when I end up like back on the FTC side of

00:27:42this case. Because I'm like, no, you're right. This may not be, we don't have to litigate

00:27:46everything that Facebook is. We just have to litigate that part. And I think whether the

00:27:51judge buys that sort of, you know, slicing of the pie of Facebook remains to be seen. But I do find

00:27:57that part of the argument pretty convincing. I agree with that. And I think that's where I

00:28:02wonder, you know, Judge Bozberg has kind of admitted he's not really a social media user. So,

00:28:07you know, Adam Masseri, before the trial started, did a tutorial where he walked him through these apps,

00:28:12where it just, you know, felt like a, you know, teenager explaining to their dad how,

00:28:18how Instagram works.

00:28:20What I would give to be a fly on the wall for that, like in the judges chambers, just

00:28:24scrolling through Instagram.

00:28:26Oh, no, I was there. It was in the courtroom.

00:28:26Oh, you were there?

00:28:27Yeah.

00:28:27Was it, was it, was it the most awkward thing in history or was it amazing?

00:28:31It was. So, I mean, throughout the trial, one thing that's happened is Judge Bozberg

00:28:35played basketball at Yale, I believe. And so, everyone is working basketball references into

00:28:43their exhibits. So, we had some like NBA exhibits or videos referenced in the Instagram demo.

00:28:51That's very good.

00:28:52Yeah.

00:28:53Let's talk about TikTok for a minute because you brought this up and it does feel like,

00:28:56you know, back to the, what would this case have been like if it was tried five years ago?

00:29:00TikTok is sort of the big wrench here, right? And it has come up a lot kind of on both sides.

00:29:05of the argument. Uh, what, what, what, how would you explain sort of TikTok's role in what this

00:29:11case has been? Because it does seem like it is everybody's favorite comparison in all directions.

00:29:17And it's very strange.

00:29:19Yeah. I mean, I think TikTok is just kind of the elephant in the room because yeah, it existed

00:29:23when the FTC filed this case, but, um, it really was nothing like it is today that has become such a

00:29:30huge competitor for Meta, um, on, in a general sense of the term. Um, and I mean, it's hard to,

00:29:38you know, if you told anyone that Meta doesn't compete with TikTok, they'd be like, what are you

00:29:43talking about? Um, but, you know, we're talking about this very like legal, uh, case where, um,

00:29:51it, it has a very specific definition about what is really a competitor. Um, and so in this case,

00:29:59the FTC says that we're talking about personal social networking services, which are used to

00:30:05connect with friends and family. They have a social graph, which means, you know, they connect,

00:30:10they, you know, kind of map out like all of your connections based on, you know, who you know,

00:30:15versus like what you're interested in, which is more of how TikTok does it. Um, and yeah,

00:30:22so they say in that market, it's really just Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, and then some

00:30:27of these other apps like MeWe and BeReal. Um, and so I think with TikTok, it's, you know,

00:30:34they're saying this is, that's more of a passive experience. You're, you know, scrolling through,

00:30:39you're getting served, uh, different videos that you might be interested in, but it's not really

00:30:43about who, you know, or, you know, you're not really going to like message a friend on there.

00:30:47Maybe you will, but like, that's not really what you're going to TikTok for. Um, and so I think

00:30:52that's really what it comes down to. And what Meta says is that, you know, well, it doesn't really

00:30:59matter why, um, users specifically come to the app because first of all, a lot of users come to

00:31:06Instagram to do the same thing that they do on TikTok, which is scroll reels. And second of all,

00:31:12they say it's really about time and attention because that's what really constrains our power

00:31:17is we're thinking about how do we make sure that people spend more time on our apps versus on TikTok

00:31:23or something else. Um, and you know, that's what we should be focused on because internally you can

00:31:30see that that's what we look at. We look at, you know, how do we win users time? We're not saying

00:31:35like, oh, let's like try to get more of the friends and family sharing group. Um,

00:31:40can't both of those things be true at the same time? This is what I, I'm so hung up on this. Like

00:31:45the, the, every time anybody makes an argument about TikTok, I'm like, of course you're right.

00:31:50It's like, everybody's like, no, people don't do the same things sort of in relation to each other

00:31:56that they do on Facebook and even Instagram. Like my Instagram experience in terms of like how I

00:32:03interact with my friends is completely different from TikTok. But most of the time I open Instagram or

00:32:08TikTok, it's, it's for the same purpose, like you're saying. And so, uh, everybody keeps bringing

00:32:12up this, like, was it an Instagram outage?

00:32:15It was the meta outage in 2021.

00:32:17So everybody brings up this outage, uh, and, and points out where people went, uh, as, as a way of

00:32:23saying, okay, who are our actual competitors? Like, where do they go when they're not here? Um, and like,

00:32:30it's the obvious place. Like everybody went to YouTube and TikTok, right? And so meta is like,

00:32:34of course, that's where they went there. Those are our competitors. And that's also obviously

00:32:38true. And so like, I just don't know how to piece those two things apart or if I even need to, that

00:32:43like these two sides just sort of seem like they're saying true things that have nothing to do with

00:32:47each other.

00:32:49Right. Well, then I think the other part of that is that the FTC then points out that, yeah, okay.

00:32:54There's like some percentage that was diverted to these other apps, but this doesn't add up to a

00:32:59hundred percent. Some of these diverted users just like logged off. Like, we don't know, maybe they

00:33:04went to, maybe they went to other apps, but maybe they also like touched grass or went to sleep. Um,

00:33:10so I think-

00:33:11We're suing grass.

00:33:12Yeah. And, you know, actually Judge Boesberg has kind of touched on this before because he, um, when

00:33:20he was ruling on the motion for summary judgment late last year, um, he said that, you know, the fact

00:33:26that a Meta competes with TikTok for time and attention is quote, true, but beside the point.

00:33:33Um, and he also said quote, Meta competes not just with YouTube, TikTok, and X, but also with

00:33:38watching a movie at a friend's house, reading a book at the library and playing online poker.

00:33:43Antitrust law does not require consideration of such an infinite range of possible substitutes.

00:33:49Okay.

00:33:49So I think, you know, that's going to be somewhat of a difficult argument for Meta to make that,

00:33:54you know, it really does matter that we compete for time and attention. And I think they would say

00:33:58it's because, you know, people have multiple apps on their phones already. And yeah, we've like

00:34:03almost reached saturation maybe with how many more people could download it. So at this point,

00:34:08we're competing on, you know, who spends more time on each app.

00:34:11So this comes back yet again to market definition, because like if, if you can convince Judge

00:34:15Boesberg to buy the idea that there is a market for, I want to find my friends and family on the

00:34:21internet, then we're somewhere. But if you can't, I think all like rational evidence suggests that

00:34:28you can't come at Meta for like, it's a place where people watch videos. And, and so I, this,

00:34:36this also now kind of makes the FTC's whole plan here makes sense. Like we, we even talked about

00:34:42at the beginning, this is a pretty tricky needle to thread, but by that, by the way you're talking

00:34:49about it and the way the judge sees it, that's kind of its only move.

00:34:52Yeah. Yeah. I think that's right. I think, you know, they have to, they have to show that there

00:34:58is this market, however small it is, that it's not so small that it doesn't matter. It still matters.

00:35:04And it's still something that Meta can leverage, even over the users who maybe really are just coming

00:35:10there for reals. And, you know, that, that really separates them out. And I think one way that

00:35:17we've seen this throughout trial is Meta keeps bringing up this, um, you know, these three

00:35:23screenshots of, uh, reels, TikTok and YouTube shorts, and it's like on the same video and

00:35:30they look exactly the same. And, you know, you know, interestingly, the FTC's expert actually

00:35:36couldn't distinguish which was which, which was not a great look.

00:35:41That's a bad look for everyone. Like no one comes out of that looking like they're doing

00:35:44a good job. Yeah. But you know, I think it was TikTok's executive who had looked at the

00:35:50same kind of screenshot side by side and was like, yeah, you know, they do seem very similar,

00:35:57but when you click out of that experience, you get to what is core to the app. And for

00:36:02TikTok, this is the core, like that, that's it. It's the short form video player. And for

00:36:08YouTube, it's the long form videos. And for, uh, Instagram and Facebook, it's the feed and

00:36:14stories. And, you know, those are elements that the FTC says are really about sharing

00:36:19with your friends and family, even if they include some other kinds of content.

00:36:24Okay. Okay. So as everybody's hearing this on Tuesday, you will be back in court for what

00:36:31we think is the last day of this, right? For now.

00:36:34That's right.

00:36:34The last day until the next first day. And then we do this all over again, presumably

00:36:38several more times.

00:36:39Exactly.

00:36:40Okay. I like it. You and I both live in DC and I've seen you more in the DC district

00:36:43courthouse than anywhere else since we've been working together.

00:36:46It's been great.

00:36:48Um, I, I will not hold you to this and neither will all of the many people listening to this.

00:36:53If you had to call it right now, where do you think it lands?

00:36:57If I had to call it right now, I would say, I think Meadow wins.

00:37:06Um, I think that's right too.

00:37:07Yeah. I mean, I just think it's, it's a tough case and it, you know, the burden is always

00:37:13on the plaintiff. Um, that said, will I be shocked if the FTC wins? No. Um, but I think

00:37:21it's just, uh, you know, uh, we had Google go first. I think that was a very strong case

00:37:27and it, that was tough because it was the first one out of the gate. It's hard to be the first

00:37:32judge to make a ruling like that, but this is a very different kind of case. Um, you know,

00:37:37that was really about contracts. A lot of it actually lined up really neatly with the Microsoft

00:37:41case. Um, so I think it was very different. I think this is a different kind of case and

00:37:48the judge, um, in that same order on the motion for summary judgment in November, he said that

00:37:55the government's claims quote, at times straightened this country's creaking antitrust precedents

00:38:00to their limits. So it's just, you know, it's a hard case to bring given the state of, um,

00:38:06antitrust law, um, and where we're at today, but you know, it's not out of the question.

00:38:11And I think, um, judge Boseberg seemed like he was asking really astute questions by the

00:38:17end. He didn't ask a ton of questions, but the ones he did ask seemed like, okay, he's

00:38:22really following this. So I will be very interested to see what he ends up saying.

00:38:27You and me both. Yeah. There's, there's a lot of these all happening.

00:38:30At once. And this one, this one feels like maybe the hardest to call. Uh, but it's going

00:38:35to be fascinating. All right. For now, I will, I will leave you alone. Uh, but thank you for

00:38:39doing this. It's great to see you come leave the courtroom occasionally. We're going to

00:38:42do this one. It's going to be great. Would love that. All right. We got to take a break

00:38:46and then we're going to come back and we're going to talk smart classes. We'll be right

00:38:49back.

00:38:52All right. We're back. V song is here. Hi V. Hello. You have traversed America several times.

00:38:59I have. It's been a whirlwind 48 hours. We're recording this on Thursday morning and you

00:39:04like, you just got home. How are you holding up? Uh, this is my like third cup of coffee.

00:39:10That's what we like to hear. You know, it's that post conference high. I will crash later

00:39:15today, but right now we're riding high. So what were your vibes from IO? We talked a bunch

00:39:20about this on the, on the Friday show, but my, my sense from afar was that it was like, it

00:39:25was a pretty good IO in terms of like Google kind of flexing its, its powers in the universe

00:39:31here. What was your sense of the whole thing? Um, it was a smooth IO. It was, um, it was an

00:39:36IO that I felt was more intentional than IOs have been in the past. Like this felt a lot

00:39:43more cohesive. It felt like Google had something to say this year comparatively about AI instead

00:39:48of just going AI. So there was a lot of that too, with many charts, albeit with Y axes, unlike

00:39:55other conferences that we shall not name. And, uh, you know, I think this is one of the first

00:40:01years where we felt, where I felt at least that hardware was present in some way in the

00:40:06keynote, not in a large way, but in a way.

00:40:10Interesting. Well, and one of the reasons I want to talk to you is it felt to me like Google

00:40:14makes this like long series of product announcements about Mariner and Astra and AI mode and all

00:40:19this stuff where they're like, okay, what we want to do is make AI that is like interactive

00:40:25with you all the time and it can see everything and it's always listening and proactive and

00:40:29all this stuff. And all I kept hearing all the time was it's smart glasses that it's like,

00:40:34this is, this is a world you build. If you believe that smart glasses are going to take

00:40:39over the world. Was that your sense too? That like all of this is like kind of phony,

00:40:43but it's like built for smart glasses.

00:40:46I 100% feel that way. Uh, because what did they end on? Smart glasses, right? They were

00:40:52like, here's, here's like, it was a very interesting concept because they went like search, search,

00:40:58search. Here's a bunch of projects whose names you absolutely won't remember the difference

00:41:03between by the end of this conference and smart glasses at the end. So I, I feel like they

00:41:09were just kind of handholding everyone to go to this thesis that Android XR is how they're going

00:41:14to embody all of this AI because AI is not really something that is tangible at the moment. Like

00:41:23it's software, right? It's on your devices, but it's not necessarily integral to your devices. And

00:41:29you know, the thesis that Meta and now Google have kind of come up with in the last two years or so is

00:41:36that smart glasses are the hardware vehicle for AI for normies. We got the headsets for you. You

00:41:43early adopters, tech enthusiasts, you know, gadget nerds, but for the normies, we're pairing up with

00:41:51a gentle monster and Warby Parker and you'll have smart glasses and you'll like it. That's kind of

00:41:57the, that's kind of the vibe. Yeah. So you got a couple of new demos this time. What did you

00:42:02actually get to see and try at AI? No new demos for me. I think, um, this is the, the public unveiling

00:42:09of, uh, of what demos they're comfortable letting out into the world with minimal guardrails. Uh,

00:42:18it was actually really funny because I came in my sneakers and running shorts under a skirt. As soon

00:42:23as the keynote was done, I used all of my training to run to the demo. I got there and they were like,

00:42:30you've got five minutes with everything. And I was like, Oh my God, that's not a lot of time.

00:42:35Right. And I think that's on purpose, not only because this was the thing that everyone was

00:42:38going to want to try, but because, um, you know, as they said on the keynote on stage, when they did

00:42:43the live AI translations, it stuck out to me. Cause they're like, this is a risky demo. Cause these

00:42:48are risky demos. Live AI demos are always going to be risky, but inherently so in a device that Google

00:42:54is known for failing at. So, um, yeah, the demos I got in Wuhan, I was like, Oh, here we go again.

00:43:02This is like what I saw in December. This is a Android flavored Apple vision pro that is much,

00:43:08much, much, much, much, much, like 10 times more comfortable to wear. Interesting. Okay.

00:43:12But the demo I got in there was not particularly special as like, I have a problem because I saw

00:43:18all of it. I saw all of it, but I think the, I think what's important is what they chose to let

00:43:24people try. And so what they're choosing to let people try is talking to Gemini in some very guided

00:43:31ways. And then for the headset, it was like, here's a ability for you to ask Gemini to take you to a

00:43:40place without opening the Google maps app, but it's going to take you there contextually. Um, and then

00:43:45you can look around and then the other thing is like, also we know people want to use headsets for

00:43:50immersive content. What if we took a video that was filmed on a drone and made it 3d? Yeah. And

00:43:57spatializing that, that, that, that was the, the Wuhan demo I got, which I don't think is going to

00:44:03convince people of Android XR. I really don't think that's what's going to, I actually think the lighter

00:44:08form factor is what is going to make people go like, Oh, okay. Vision pro very cool, but wearable.

00:44:14Um, so I think that's kind of the takeaway I had from Wuhan again, solidified and the glasses,

00:44:21the glasses is what, uh, everyone was just like, they were like, move aside project.

00:44:26I'll get to you later. The glasses, let me have the glasses. And that was interesting because the

00:44:32three demos that they had everyone try, I think were very intentional and purposeful. So one of the

00:44:38demos was, Hey, there's two paintings in here, ask Gemini facts about those paintings and you can

00:44:45ask it questions contextually, like compare these two paintings. There was one that was very brightly

00:44:51colored and pointillist and another that was just like, you know, like in TV shows where they want

00:44:57to show you that the person is sad now. So everything is in like cool lighting. That was that, that was

00:45:02that, uh, picture. And you know, you, you go like, Hey, you tap the side arm and it brings up Gemini

00:45:07live. And I think it was Gemini live at least. And, you know, you can see the little thing,

00:45:12the display in one of the lenses. And it's like, Hey, yeah, you have the little animation that shows

00:45:19that it's listening. And then, um, it gives you captain obvious observations. Like, uh, you know,

00:45:25if you're a seeing person, if you're not a seeing person, then, um, that might be very helpful

00:45:29what it's describing to you. But for me, they were just like, Oh, uh, the, the picture on the

00:45:33right is brightly colored. It has pointillism in it. And the picture on the left has moodier

00:45:39subdued hues. And I was like, yes, it's on the level of like, you point the camera at a bag of

00:45:44nuts that says nuts in large letters. And it tells you it's a bag of nuts. It's like, it's not

00:45:49unimpressive technology, but it's not hard work, right? Like this, this is stuff we know we have

00:45:56solved. And I think it sounds like that's a lot of what you're saying here. It's like,

00:45:58what you've described is a bunch of things that Google has known. It's very good at for a while

00:46:03and is actually now just trying to do inside of glasses, which does present new kinds of problems,

00:46:10right? The cameras and the processing, all that stuff is like, that's new and different stuff.

00:46:14So the fact that even the easy stuff works is not nothing, but it's also not, you have not invented

00:46:20a new thing. If you just give me a new way to do my camera. Yes. Like, so this, these are very,

00:46:27very tightly controlled and like short, purposefully short demos that we were getting

00:46:34at this event. The other one in December were much longer. You were like able to ask Gemini to do

00:46:39more impressive things. Like one was you could look at a bookshelf and the glasses would remember

00:46:46the books that you saw. So if you left and you went, oh, hey, what was that book that I saw in

00:46:52yellow, like the yellow cover? What was the title of that? It would be able to remember that for you.

00:46:56And that is something, if you're forgetful, you'd be like, oh, maybe I would use that

00:47:00if I could remember to use that. But you know, that, that is something that feels a little more

00:47:04magical and not something that we were able to try in this like setting where people are finally

00:47:10allowed to take photos of the prototype, where they're finally allowed to try the prototypes.

00:47:14And they're finally allowed to take video of people trying these prototypes.

00:47:18Another thing, like a slightly modified version of that demo that I got, where they had all these

00:47:23travel books on a shelf. And they were like, why don't you try asking Gemini which book you should

00:47:30read based on like your preferences? So, you know, I come up with a persona and I go, hey, I'm planning

00:47:36a trip to Japan. I'm not outdoorsy person. Which of these travel guides is going to be most helpful

00:47:41for me? And I picked one. And I'm like, cool. I guess that's helpful if you're in a bookstore and

00:47:48you're like, I don't know which one of these books to choose. Why don't you choose that one

00:47:52for me? So ostensibly you could do that.

00:47:56Well, but again, it's, it's the, the, the little bits of rails there I think are what's so

00:47:59interesting because it's like, it is one thing to do that from a series of travel guides. It is,

00:48:03it is another thing entirely to just be in a room or a bookstore or whatever and be like,

00:48:10I'm going to Japan. What in this Barnes and Noble should I read? Which is like that,

00:48:14that's the thing, right? If you're already standing in front of the shelf of travel guides,

00:48:19the, the question of, do I look at the Japan travel guide for my Japan trip is not interesting

00:48:24user interface stuff. But I think like, this is not to like diminish what's happening here. All of

00:48:30this is like a stepping stone to that. And I think this is where I go back to the, the sort of

00:48:35point counterpoint between all of the stuff Google was announcing at IO and these glasses. Cause like

00:48:40all of the project Astra stuff, and you and I've talked about this before, all of that is smart

00:48:44glasses, right? The idea that this thing can be on all the time and seeing everything that I'm

00:48:48seeing and listening is like, and, and sort of proactively piping up when it has something to

00:48:53tell me or remembering what all the books are and then telling me later, like that's all the stuff

00:48:57they're working on with Astra. That's like universal AI assistant. All of that is for smart glasses.

00:49:02And they've said as much, like I talked to the team that's building this and they were like,

00:49:05we're doing it for phones and smart glasses, but it's pretty clear to us that the best version of this

00:49:10thing works on smart glasses because you can see all the things you see in here, all the things

00:49:14you hear. It makes perfect sense, but it is so painfully clear that putting those two things

00:49:19together, the glasses and the AI and the underlying like sensing technology, all the pieces of that

00:49:27are happening, but the shoving them together, I think is going to be way harder than most people

00:49:31are reckoning with. It's going to be much harder. The parts exist, but the problem is that the parts

00:49:36have existed for a really long time. It's putting together. That's very difficult. And then on top

00:49:41of that, you know, uh, the problem with all of this is that I've seen it. Have you seen it? Do you get

00:49:48it? Do you get why these people are so gung ho about it? Because I can describe it to you. I can

00:49:52describe it to you at length. I can describe it to you in detail. You just don't fully get it,

00:49:58you know? And, you know, the readers are just like, well, isn't it your job to describe that to us?

00:50:03And I'm like, yes, I am. But what I'm trying to convey to you is that, um, I can be the most

00:50:09descriptive person in the world. I can hype it up so much. You're still not going to get it until

00:50:15you put a pair of glasses on. And then when you put the pair of glasses on, you still may not be

00:50:20convinced because the tech is so nascent at this point in time. Our brains and our cultural cues

00:50:26have not evolved to the point where we naturally think, oh yeah, this is what I'm going to ask,

00:50:30uh, it to do. Like within the whole keynote and the whole demo, the thing that I was like, aha,

00:50:36this is what's going to get people to think about the possibilities was that demo of the guy trying

00:50:43to fix his bike and just going like, pull this up. Hey, I'm looking at this. What do I need to do

00:50:48right there? Cause like, if you're trying to solve that now, what are you doing? You're pulling up

00:50:52YouTube videos. You're trying to sort between the five different YouTube videos, doing the same thing

00:50:56all with the same tedious two minute intro where you're just like, just get me to the part that I

00:51:00need to know. And then you're having to physically reference other stuff, you know, and it's saying

00:51:04that it's going to do that seamlessly for you based on what you're seeing. So that part, I think everyone

00:51:11can look at that and go, Hey, I think there's a time where I would have loved that to be easier with

00:51:16less friction. So that yes, people will get that. Um, and that's why they did the low vision and blind

00:51:22use cases, uh, scenario there too, because that is another clear cut thing where you go, Oh,

00:51:28now I get why we might want smart glasses for this very specific subset of people who it could very

00:51:34much help. And those are the kinds of things that you need to get normal people on board. Uh, whereas

00:51:40like the other, the, so the final third demo that I got, um, that they were ready to share publicly and

00:51:46they think is going to convince people that this is, this is it was the fact that you can take a

00:51:52picture with the glasses, which no bigs Snapchat, uh, snap glasses have been doing that meta ray

00:51:57band glasses have been doing that. The difference now is there's a display. So you snap the photo

00:52:02and you can see what it looks like. You get a preview. Um, and the problem with the meta ray

00:52:07bands for a lot of content creators is that there's no framing. Right. So like when I tested the ray

00:52:12bands, I noticed that I tilt my head a lot because all of my photos had an unintentional

00:52:16such angle. I was like, Ooh, I'm so glad that's not just me. That's exactly been my experience

00:52:21too. It's like, every time I think my head is straight, it turns out my head is actually at like

00:52:25a 20 degree angle. You know, it's at, it's at an angle. I was like, Oh, I must be such a thoughtful

00:52:30person because I'm at an angle and I'm thinking so hard about what I'm looking at. Or, you know,

00:52:35I realized that if you're going to wear glass smart glasses where the camera is usually in the hinges

00:52:40so far, um, you really shouldn't have bangs or you should tie your hair back because there were

00:52:45so many pictures where just pieces of my hair were ruining the framing and the shot.

00:52:50So if you have a display, you take the shot, you see what the picture is going to look like. And

00:52:56you can go, Oh, I've tilted my head. Let me just straighten my head and get this photo again.

00:53:00So, and it happens in a blink of a second. It's like really cool. Um, and then, you know,

00:53:06cool, I guess. Great for framing. Uh, it's a small thing, but it's also a thing that

00:53:11they're very subtly like, Hey, you know, who can't do that just yet? Meta. Meta.

00:53:17Yeah. We got the display. Yeah. I I'm fascinated by how all of these companies are going to try to

00:53:24use those tiny screens because like the screens aren't very good, at least in the demos that I've

00:53:28gotten in the past, maybe these are better, but in general, the screens mostly suck, but they're

00:53:33there. And so you have to figure out what you can do. But even the thing you described where like

00:53:36it shows the animation that Gemini is listening to you. Like I instinctively hate that.

00:53:41Because I'm like, actually your job is to not put interface in my way while something is

00:53:46not happening. Right. That that's the equivalent of like putting a loading screen in front of my

00:53:50face, 24 hours a day. Like that's bad. I don't want that. But the like one second to frame your

00:53:56shot as you're taking a photo makes a ton of sense to me. And it's like, this is the thing I think is

00:54:01so interesting about smart glasses in general is we're just going to have to make a million of those

00:54:06decisions about how everything is supposed to work all the time because it should be as little

00:54:11screen as possible. But you also need the screen for lots of things. And I think like that getting

00:54:16that balance right, I think, is like kind of the whole product ballgame with a lot of this stuff.

00:54:21Yeah, we're at the spaghetti phase because I don't think we know what we want fully.

00:54:25The other thing that they're trying to do is heads up display. So they're talking about

00:54:28Google Maps. And this isn't exactly the scenario you're talking about, David, where,

00:54:34you know, your heads up, they're only going to give you the little kind of if you have a heads

00:54:38up display in a car, you probably know what I'm talking about, where it's just like 500 feet in

00:54:43a in an arrow and a tiny little display in the peripheral of your vision. And then when you look

00:54:48down, it morphs into a little map. So you can kind of get a little a little sense. Some people I talk

00:54:56to were like, I don't I don't know if I like that because I want to see the map. I want to see the blue

00:55:00arrow floating in the sky. And I was like, I don't want to see that. I want, you know,

00:55:05I want something less obtrusive. I want to if I'm if I'm trying to get out of a New York subway,

00:55:11I never know what is up down north south once I get out of the subway, because I've emerged from

00:55:16the infrastructural depths of hell. And I want to know what direction I go. And if I could just look

00:55:21down and go like, I'm supposed to go that way. Cool. And then have like a guide of where I'm supposed

00:55:26to go. So I can stay interacted with my surroundings. That that feels like a good use to me. But I met so

00:55:33many people who are like, I want the big blue arrow floating in space. I want to see that. And, you know,

00:55:39the prototypes that we saw, they were only one type of prototype that I know Google has, because when I

00:55:46went for my December hands on where we were not allowed to have photos, we were not allowed to have

00:55:52cameras, we could just only see. And I almost feel like I was gaslit into thinking, did this exist? Did I see

00:55:58that? Because I wasn't able to take anything but my own written experience and recording and my notes

00:56:03out of that? I saw binocular versions, I saw versions that were sunglasses, you know. So it's

00:56:10clear that they're trying to refine what this display is going to look like, because the ones that we all

00:56:16got shown in public was the binocular single lens display in one of the lenses. But I saw versions where

00:56:24there were two, one in each. And that allows a much bigger screen to appear that gives you more

00:56:30options. Like I saw a wild demo back in December where you could just like really kind of watch a

00:56:36movie inside of your smart glasses. Was it good? No. It was like the same problems that maybe watching

00:56:44a movie on a projector in your living room versus on an actual TV has. A lot of that same issue.

00:56:49You know, and I asked them, hey, how did you solve the ambient light question? That's my gotcha

00:56:53question. And more people have better answers to that in the last few years than they have ever with

00:56:59regard to smart glasses. And they say, oh, you know, it has ambient light sensors. It'll be able to adjust

00:57:04the brightness based on where you're at. And I was like, cool, but we're in a tiny little room right now.

00:57:09We're not doing these demos outside in direct sunlight. This is what I mean by card rails, controlled,

00:57:14trying to bottle the magic. I heard references to Iron Man and Jarvis because Tony Stark.

00:57:23Ironically, I think Tony Stark looms large over our imagination of what smart glasses ought to do.

00:57:28Very much so.

00:57:29So like you should be having Jarvis in your glasses. It should be able to project all this information.

00:57:36And then the reality is, is that that's not where we're at. We're probably more in the James

00:57:41Bond era where it like I'm going to say the Kingsman Eggsy scenario where you have a pair

00:57:48of smart glasses that look very discreet and you can see green holograms is like one that these are

00:57:54actual glasses that people at CES brought where you can see like green light because that's their

00:58:00answer to ambient light. And I'm just going to say it. It's the spaghetti phase. Everyone does not know

00:58:06what people actually want or what they will actually buy or what their reservations are.

00:58:12So they're like, here, here's a version with a display. Here's a version that's just audio.

00:58:15Here's a version with camera. Here's a version with a, where the camera is in the nose bridge.

00:58:20What are we going to call smart glasses? Is everything going to be called a smart glass?

00:58:24Because here's another interesting tidbit in the developer keynote. So not the main keynote,

00:58:28the developer keynote, Xreal, was announced to have the first official Android XR pair of,

00:58:36I'm going to call them smart glasses, but were they allowed to call it smart glasses? I don't know

00:58:41because their press release said optical see-through XR device. So not glasses, but if you look at them,

00:58:48they're glasses.

00:58:49XR device. I don't even know what to make of that sentence.

00:58:52Well, what's an optical see-through XR device that you wear on your face? It's glasses.

00:58:58It's optical. You can see through it. But Xreal's made a name for itself, making little portable

00:59:06screens that you carry around that happen to look like glasses that you have to plug into another

00:59:10device. And it's just like a portable monitor that you can bring around. This version, we have

00:59:15very few details. They didn't have it on hand. They were there, but they didn't have it on hand.

00:59:19And the render shows cameras in the nose bridge, which we haven't seen yet. We haven't seen cameras

00:59:24in the nose bridge just yet. So I'm like, ooh, that's interesting.

00:59:27So it's like, if you're imagining you're cross-eyed and that's how you take pictures. I love that.

00:59:32Or just trying to get beyond the bangs problem, to be quite frank. So it's interesting. It's an

00:59:40interesting reclamation of Google's history with this particular form factor as well, because

00:59:46Google, you ain't fooling me. That keynote comes out there. You have Izadi out on stage. And he's

00:59:53like, we've been in the space for 10 years. I was like, really? Because I really do feel like you

00:59:59tried to bury that under the enterprise tech carpet for a good number of years.

01:00:03It's so funny you bring this up. I was thinking about that as they were saying this. I was like,

01:00:06when was the last time Google willingly acknowledged the existence of Google Glass? And I think,

01:00:11A, it's actually a lot longer than 10 years, friendos. And B, you spent like eight of those

01:00:1810 years trying to get everybody to forget that you had ever done any of this in the first place.

01:00:23Yeah. From the outside, it looks like, oh, oh, the meta-ray-bans are, people actually want that?

01:00:32Oh, well, you know, we got like these 20 years of notes and research and partnerships. Like,

01:00:37let's get back on that.

01:00:38It's actually the most Google thing in the world, right? This is the same company that

01:00:41invented all of the important technology behind chat GPT. And then chat GPT launched and Google

01:00:47was like, you want that? Oh, we can do that. People like this? Sure. We'll make a product out

01:00:53of that. But I think on the glasses front, the other piece of news that I think I found even more

01:00:58interesting than the X-Trail stuff is some of the partnership stuff that Google announced about

01:01:02who they're making glasses with. And these are companies you know a lot more about than I do.

01:01:07Can you just like set in context who these partners are for Google?

01:01:11So the big two that they announced on stage are Gentle Monster and Warby Parker.

01:01:16I'm going to guess most people, Burge listeners, probably may not know about Gentle Monster.

01:01:25You know Gentle Monster if, one, you are Korean, because every Korean person, their mother turns

01:01:32to them and goes, did you know that company was Korean? And so that's how I actually know

01:01:36about Gentle Monster, because it's a big brand in Korea. And it's super popular with luxury haute

01:01:45couture. You have 100% seen Gentle Monster glasses, because Kendrick wears them. Kendrick Lamar

01:01:52wears them. Beyonce wears them. Rihanna wears them. Billie Eilish wears them. Everybody famous who

01:01:59has worn kind of a weird silhouette, cool pair of sunglasses or glasses in the last, I want to say,

01:02:0710 years, guarantee you one of them is probably Gentle Monster.

01:02:11I'm looking at this collection now, and Gentle Monster, they have a bunch of the, like, very

01:02:16skinny, sort of, like, vaguely, like, Blade Runner, futuristic-looking ones that you're right.

01:02:22I've seen on, like, you see red carpets everywhere filled with this, like, there's, like, slightly

01:02:27wide, slightly skinny glasses. And now I'm thinking a lot of these were probably Gentle Monster.

01:02:32Or if you see someone with extremely large glasses, like, extremely, like, don't talk

01:02:39to me. These are obscenely large sunglasses. Those are also Gentle Monster.

01:02:44Love it.

01:02:45They're very artsy-fartsy, edgy, bold, that kind of vibe. So that's an interesting pick,

01:02:53because I feel like...

01:02:54So, like, less mainstream than Ray-Ban, but maybe, like, cooler than Ray-Ban at the moment?

01:02:59Yes. Yes. Buzzier than Ray-Ban, much bigger with Gen Z.

01:03:04That seems like a big win for Google. If you can't be, like, meta and get S. Lord Luxottica

01:03:09and have all of the glasses that exist in the universe as your partners, this is what you

01:03:14do, right? Instead of, like, try to go... And Warby Parker is the other partner, and I think

01:03:19that's, like, that's more along the lines of what I would have expected Google to do,

01:03:23which is not a ding, but Warby Parker is, like, very straightforward, very kind of, like,

01:03:28earnest regular people glasses. And that's fine. And, like, Warby Parker is, like, a very

01:03:34millennial company for millennials, and that's fine. But what you need if you're Google is

01:03:40something that is the, like, absolute cultural opposite of Google Glass. And Gentle Monster,

01:03:45from the way you described it, sounds like about as close to that as there might be right now.

01:03:49Yeah, and my conspiracy theory is that they got it because they're partnering with Samsung.

01:03:55So, you know, Samsung is an institution in Korea. It is responsible for most of the huge

01:04:03chunk of the country's GDP. There's a saying in Korea that if Samsung's knees, the whole

01:04:08country shakes. Like, that is the cultural cachet that Samsung has in Korea.

01:04:14Yeah. So we're gonna start seeing, like, K-pop's bands wearing Muhan pretty soon,

01:04:19is what you're saying? Like, that's coming.

01:04:20Probably, you know, honest to God, probably yes. You will see BTS is back from the army. You're

01:04:26gonna see Jungkook in Muhan. Probably Stray Kids as well. G-Dragon. These are, if you know K-pop,

01:04:32these are huge names that I'm listing right now. But, you know, Gentle Monster has done these huge

01:04:37celeb collabs. They know how to be, like, we are the artsy one. We are the cool one. And I think

01:04:43from a strategic perspective, what you're seeing here is they're going accessibility, affordability,

01:04:49and people not wanting to look crazy with Warby Parker. That's a great play, especially because

01:04:56Warby Parker is direct to consumer, right? So it's easier than having to go to your lens crafter,

01:05:02which is what I have to do with a lot of SLR Luxottica stuff because that's their thing.

01:05:07Um, and Ray-Bans, they're, the Ray-Ban to Warby Parker is probably more of a one-to-one in terms

01:05:14of classic frames, things that are, you know, people aren't going to be afraid to wear. But then

01:05:20they're trying to get this cool, this cachet of cool with, um, Gentle Monster that, I don't know if

01:05:27Ray-Ban and Meta fully have that because the rumor is that they're going to go with Oakley's,

01:05:32uh, for their next thing. And that's just targeting the athletes and, and I guess dads

01:05:38in Texas.

01:05:39Which makes sense, but it's a very different play than this one.

01:05:41Yeah, it's a very different play. I think it's a very interesting one. I think Maui Gym

01:05:45was another brand that was kind of mentioned under the, I forget the name of the, the company

01:05:51that they're working with and their umbrella of eyewear, but Maui Gym are there. They're also

01:05:56sunglasses that Obama wears. So, you know, they're kind of going for that vibe as well, which

01:06:01is smart because the, the biggest eyewear brand in the world is Essilora Luxottica.

01:06:07I agree. Um, all right, I'm going to let you go here, but before we do, uh, I need to know

01:06:11what you think about this Johnny Ive, Sam Altman thing.

01:06:14I'm losing my mind.

01:06:16We think it's not smart glasses. The, the, the, the winds seem to be saying it's not smart

01:06:20glasses. People tell lies all the time. It might still be smart glasses. You never know.

01:06:24But what, what is your like earliest read on what you think this thing is?

01:06:28So here's what we know, right? It's, um, not glasses. Cause they've kind of outright said

01:06:33it's not glasses sort of.

01:06:34Again, people tell lies, but I, it does all existing evidence points to it's not glasses.

01:06:41Yeah. Um, Johnny, I've kind of shaded humane and rabbit. So if he's going to go that far

01:06:47to shade them and say, those are bad products, probably not in that vein. Right.

01:06:52Okay. Can I, can I just very quickly make the opposite case of that?

01:06:54Okay. Yeah, sure. That's Apple's thing, right? Like what, what Johnny Ive did is the equivalent

01:06:59of putting up the slide of all the ugly smartphones before you announced your own smartphone. Like

01:07:03I, I, I'm just, I'm not ruling it out. I think the funniest possible outcome would be if they

01:07:09just made a nicer looking humane pin, which I still think is possible.

01:07:12So I'm core, I sort of was just like, Oh, they're not going to do a pin because he, he

01:07:17shat on the pin. And then the more details that slowly trickle out, I'm just sort of like,

01:07:22Oh, he's not doing humane pin. He's doing plod. He's doing the plod. No, that's a good

01:07:26because, um, uh, that's, that's kind of where I'm landing at now because let's think of the

01:07:32components that go into AI hardware as we know it now that companies seem to be converging

01:07:38on. Uh, they kind of want it to be screenless because as we've just spent a great amount

01:07:43of time talking about, no one can, no one can agree on what the display should be or how

01:07:48it should look. So cut that out of the equation, no display. And also you probably don't want

01:07:53to do the humane thing where you make people pay for a separate phone LTE connection thing.

01:07:59No one wants that. So let's have it connect through your phone or another device. They're

01:08:04saying it's the third device you buy because the first is going to be a computer. The second

01:08:08is going to be your phone or you could reverse that order. So this is the third device we

01:08:11want you to have. We want it to fit in your pocket, but also on your desk, but also maybe

01:08:15you could wear it around your neck. Um, and I'm landing on the plod note pin or be that

01:08:22vein of device, but make it Joni Ive, make it beautiful, make it less stupid compared to

01:08:28humane under promise what it can do, but flaunt the fact that it's with, uh, open AI officially

01:08:38you get the subscription to open AI and they send you this hardware. It could sit on your desk.

01:08:43That can fit in your pocket and you can wear it, but it doesn't need to be wearable.

01:08:47That's I'm landing on something that looks and feels like the plod note pin, which let's face it.

01:08:56That's kind of the category that's gaining buzz outside of glasses.

01:08:59All right. V thank you. As always, we got to take a break and then we're going to come back

01:09:03and take a question from the VergeCast hotline. V go sleep. I'll see you soon.

01:09:06Ah, thank you for letting me ramble.

01:09:15All right, we're back. Let's do a question from the VergeCast hotline. As always, the number is

01:09:18866-VERGE-11. The email is vergecast at theverge.com. We love hearing from you. Thank you,

01:09:24by the way, to everybody who's reached out with responses to Alison's question about phone therapy.

01:09:28If you're going through a phone conundrum, we want to hear from you. We've gotten some really

01:09:32fun questions. That's going to be a super fun episode this summer. So keep them coming. Keep

01:09:36calling. Keep emailing. This time I have one that I actually got a bunch of emails and calls about

01:09:42just in the last couple of days since this news dropped. Let me just read you one email. This

01:09:47comes from Blake. It says, I've been using Pocket since it was called Read It Later. The news that

01:09:50Mozilla is shutting it down is sad, but not surprising. Agree and agree, by the way. Other alternatives I've

01:09:56tried, like Matter or Readwise, I've bounced off of. Is that the main recommendation now,

01:09:59or what should I be trying to migrate my Read It Later workflow into? Additional context. I do

01:10:04desktop reading in a Chromium-based browser, Arc Edge Chrome, most people do, and mobile in Safari,

01:10:10and ideally want a nice native app. I use Reader Classic for Feedly and Pocket. So I guess if I

01:10:15want to keep using that, then my options are limited to iCloud or Instapaper, and the latter of

01:10:19which definitely won't be around forever either. Thanks, Blake. Okay. I have five answers to the

01:10:26what should you replace Pocket with question. And I will say there are two different things people

01:10:32use an app like this for, and I'm a big believer in both of them, but they have different answers.

01:10:37So the one version of a Pocket user is somebody who just like uses it to dump links into. It's like a

01:10:44searchable bookmarking system. For that, Pocket was never really the best option, and I think

01:10:50there are many better options out there. If you're an Apple user, there are apps like Anybox and Good

01:10:56Links that do that more specifically. There's also one called Plinky that I like. But the one that I

01:11:02recommend to most people is called Braindrop.io. It's basically a bookmarking service, but it works

01:11:07on every platform you can think of. It's really easy to share stuff to. It has very good search. It has

01:11:12desktop apps. It's really good for exporting, which I think is really important. You can get stuff out

01:11:15of it really easily. It does cost money for some of the main features, but the free tier, I think,

01:11:21is actually plenty for most people. So that's where I would start you if you're just like, where do I

01:11:25put all of my links? I still think browser bookmarks are a terrible and underused system. I don't recommend

01:11:32that. I would start you with Raindrop and see where you get. But if you want a place to like read

01:11:37articles, there are a bunch of possibilities. One is like use the reading mode in your browser,

01:11:43and that's fine. But I don't think that's the answer. Like if that's all you need,

01:11:48terrific. But I don't think that's all people who are looking for a way to replace pocket

01:11:51actually need. So let me just go in order of chaos. I guess the simplest version is Instapaper.

01:11:59And Blake mentioned it, but I think Blake and I disagree on whether Instapaper is going to be

01:12:05around for a while. So Instapaper has been through kind of a weird history. It was one of the earliest

01:12:09apps in this space. It eventually sold to Pinterest. It has like morphed over the years

01:12:18through a couple of different owners. But now the guy who owns it and runs it is this guy named Brian

01:12:22Donoghue, who has been doing it for a long time. He's very serious about it is doing a really good

01:12:27job. The app kind of languished for a while, but has really come up recently. And I think in terms of

01:12:31just basic, I would like a nice reading experience offline on my phone to read articles,

01:12:37Instapaper is as good as it gets. Again, there's a premium tier that you have to pay for if you want,

01:12:41but a lot of the stuff that you need is in the free tier. So I would say actually most people who are

01:12:45looking for somewhere to go from pocket, I would send you to Instapaper. Option number two is an app

01:12:52called Matter. And Matter is amazing and beautiful and really clever and has some really interesting AI

01:12:59features. But it has one big downside, which is that it is expensive. And it is Apple products

01:13:04only. So if you're on your iPhone, and your iPad and the web, and that's where you want to do all

01:13:09of your stuff, fine. But if you are cross platform or want desktop stuff, you're just sort of stuck

01:13:15going elsewhere. So that's option number two. Option number three is Readwise Reader, which I think is

01:13:21the best and most powerful reading app out there. It's the one that I use, but also like I read and

01:13:27research for a living. So I need much more than a lot of people. I really like the way that it does

01:13:32highlighting. I like the way that it integrates with lots of other apps. So I can get my highlights

01:13:35out into my note taking app. I like all the organizational systems that it has. I like the

01:13:40way that you can also add PDFs, and you can add books, and you can search through all the texts of

01:13:44everything. And it is like, the app is not attractive. And it feels like a work app, if that makes

01:13:50sense. It's much closer to like a B2B SaaS piece of software than to like a lovely little reading app.

01:13:59But for my purposes, it does the job. It has a great speech thing that lets you read articles out

01:14:06loud. It's expensive, like some of these other ones. But it is, I think, for my money, the best

01:14:12one on the market. That's option number three. Option number four is an app called Wallabag. And

01:14:18Wallabag is different than the other ones in the sense that it is an open source project

01:14:22that is kind of meant to be self hosted. And the upside of Wallabag is that means no one can take

01:14:28it away from you. You can run it pretty easily. It's really easy to spin up on your own hardware.

01:14:32It's a, I don't know, it's like a fine app. It's not great looking, but it's fine. It does the job.

01:14:39And if you are willing to do a little bit of work, it is a much more future proof way to roll something

01:14:45like this for yourself. I think that's way more work than most people want to do. But if you want

01:14:49to do the work, Wallabag is a great place to start. Then the last option I would offer you is,

01:14:56I think, to try and combine a Relator app with an RSS reader. My guess is if you're a person who

01:15:03uses something like Pocket, you're also a person who might use something like Feedly, or Feedbin,

01:15:09or one of these other apps that lets you sort of put all of the things that you care about into one

01:15:14place. I really recommend doing that, by the way. I have been using Feedbin for years and love it to

01:15:19pieces and recommend it to everybody. But many of these things have a place that you can manually

01:15:24send an article into your RSS reader, and it just treats it like another feed of articles that you've

01:15:29saved. That's really useful in the sense that it is yet more stuff all in one place. The problem

01:15:35with a lot of these Relator apps is it just turns into another inbox to check. And as the list of stuff

01:15:39to read gets longer, you want to check it less. And so it just becomes this like thousands of things,

01:15:43long lists of stuff you're never going to read. Not bad. But if you put it in the place where you're

01:15:48actually reading the news all the day, and you have this other feed of like, here's the stuff I want

01:15:53to get back to, I actually have found that that balance works really well. And there are a bunch of

01:15:57really beautiful read apps for RSS, like Reader, R-E-E-D-E-R. And you can kind of make that whole

01:16:04experience work. So I would tell most people, if you're looking for somewhere to go from Pocket, and you

01:16:09don't have like a giant long list of additional future requests, try Instapaper first and see how

01:16:14far that gets you. But for my money, if you're willing to do the work and willing to spend the

01:16:18money, Readwise Reader is the best one out there. And I actually don't think it's super close.

01:16:23I hope that helps. I'm very sad Pocket is gone. Pocket did a lot of good for a lot of people for

01:16:27a long time. And it's a bummer to see it go. But this is what happens. Anyway, that's it. That's it for

01:16:33the show today. Thank you to everybody who came on and thank you as always for listening. As ever,

01:16:38if you have thoughts, questions, feelings, if you have smart glasses, you want to tell us about

01:16:43if you are thinking about what's going to happen at the end of all these trials and you have a

01:16:47theory that we haven't talked about yet, get at us. 866-VERGE11 is the hotline. vergecast

01:16:52at theverge.com is the email address. We love hearing from you. This show is produced by Will

01:16:57Poor, Eric Gomez, and Brandon Kiefer. The Vergecast is a Verge production and part of the Vox Media

01:17:00Podcast Network. Neelai and I will be back on Friday to talk about more stuff with Johnny

01:17:05Ive and OpenAI, all of the stuff we're hearing leading up to WWDC, and lots more. We'll see you

01:17:11then. Rock and roll.

Inside the Meta monopoly trial | The Vergecast

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