00:00Hi everybody I'm Brittany Lewis, a breaking news reporter here at Forbes. Joining me now is my
00:07Forbes colleague, staff writer Zach Everson. Zach, thanks so much for joining me. Thanks for
00:13having me back. Lots to talk about. There is a lot to talk about and you found this sort of
00:18roundabout way that flights the Secret Service was taking is somehow financially benefiting
00:24President Trump himself. So if you could, could you break down that flow chart a little bit for us?
00:30Of course. So like all presidential candidates, the Secret Service pays, reimburses the campaign
00:39for the airfare when it accompanies a candidate who gets Secret Service coverage. So we've seen
00:46this happen, you know, George W. Bush, McCain, Obama, Clinton, all of that. What's different here
00:52is that Trump's campaign is renting the airplane from Trump's personal business. So what you have
01:00is you have the Secret Service paying, it's been about $13 million so far that they have paid the
01:06campaign. The campaign in turn has paid Trump's business $18 million. So, you know, in this case,
01:14you're not just having the money go to a third party vendor, you're having the money from the
01:18Secret Service from the taxpayers going to the president's business.
01:23And $13 million, I mean, that is just a lot over the course of, I'm assuming nine years,
01:29right, since 2016, since President Trump was. Okay. So, but talk to us.
01:33So there is a gap in there. There is a multi-year gap in there because when he was president,
01:38they weren't paying to cover him because he was getting flown around on Air Force One.
01:41So, you know, while it is going back to 2016, there are several years in there that they did
01:46not make any payments to the campaign at all. So it's probably for about under seven to eight
01:51years right there is what the payments cover. So, I mean, even so, even more so, I think this
01:57proves the point that that seems like a lot of money for even a shorter amount of time, as you're
02:03saying, because the years that he was flying Air Force One, Secret Service wasn't charging then. I mean,
02:08how does this stack up to, because you said other presidential candidates like George W. Bush,
02:13like President Biden, like Senator John McCain, how does this stack up to what they were paying
02:18the Secret Service? No, no. Trump was by and far the highest. Now, of course, we do have to adjust
02:23for inflation, but second place went to Hillary Clinton, who was at $8.8 million. And that was also
02:29a clear bump up from third place, which would have been 4.1 to Barack Obama. So Donald Trump there is
02:36far and away the one who has received the most in payments from the from the Secret Service for his
02:40campaign. And like I said, unlike any of those other people, that money then, you know, he's renting,
02:46his campaign is renting the airplane from his company. None of those other candidates have their
02:51own airplanes. So no other candidate was financially benefiting from the Secret Service. But is there
02:57any indication of why there was this disparity in the millions?
03:00No, no. I mean, obviously, inflation would cover part of that. But beyond that, I really didn't
03:08dive into that to figure it out.
03:10And so can you remind us again of exactly how the president is benefiting from this? Because you
03:16break down the flowchart again, you and I have talked about this a lot. It goes to that revocable
03:20trust. So talk to us about that revocable trust a little bit.
03:23So Donald Trump put his businesses in a revocable trust. They did this when he was elected first time
03:30and they said, Oh, you know, it's okay. He's not has nothing to do with business. They're on a
03:34revocable trust. Well, Donald Trump is the sole beneficiary of that trust. And he's also the sole
03:39donor of that trust. Donald Trump Jr. is the trustee. And it's revocable. So Trump can withdraw
03:47at any time. I mean, it's really just just kind of a little bit of a shell. It doesn't really mean he
03:51can't take any money out of there. Tag Air is his airplane company. And it is 100% contained
03:59within that trust. So that is exclusively Donald Trump's business from which he can profit from.
04:05Are there any ethics laws then barring President Trump from touching that revocable trust now?
04:09Because you said he can touch it at any time. But has he done it? And can he do it because he's
04:14president? You know, we haven't seen anything. He hasn't released any financial disclosures
04:20since he has been reelected. But yeah, I mean, there's nothing stopping him. He could just use
04:25that money for spending money or from whatever he needs at this point. So yeah, it's whether it's
04:31ethical or not, that's a judgment call. It does not appear to be illegal by any stretch. Part of the
04:36issue we're dealing with here is that he has been a groundbreaking president in terms of holding on
04:42to his business empire and even having a business empire while coming into the White House. So there's
04:47not much of a precedent to go on for somebody who has this many different business ventures
04:53and this much money tied up into all those different business ventures. So, you know,
04:58there's really not much of a precedent there. The courts didn't rule one way or another on,
05:03you know, whether he's having these businesses and accepting money from foreign governments
05:07volume violated the emoluments clause barring, you know, the president from receiving foreign gifts.
05:12So really, it's just he can do whatever he wants, by and large.
05:18And you and I talk at length over President Trump profiting from his perch in the White House.
05:24Is this a surprise then? I'm assuming, no, that he was profiting this way from his campaign?
05:29No, we've looked at this in the past. We looked at this last year. The figure was closer to about
05:33$10 million then. Figured it was time to take another look now that that last campaign cycle
05:39is finished up. So, yeah, not not a surprise. I mean, this is a guy who sells bars and sold bars
05:44of soap that have the White House wrapper on them. He currently sells the presidential gold note on
05:50his website. This weekend, he was his trumpstore.com was putting a blast of its Memorial Day sale.
05:58He was on the tarmac being interviewed in New Jersey, being asked about Vladimir Putin in Ukraine.
06:04And you noticed he was wearing a hat, a white Trump hat, Make America Great Again hat.
06:10That hat is for sale on his website. You know, he's modeling off the merch. So the fact that
06:14the president is, you know, charging the Secret Service and then reimbursing his himself from the
06:21from the from the Secret Service payments to the campaign is not surprising whatsoever.
06:25And you've reported that this isn't the only way that President Trump has benefited
06:30financially from the Secret Service over the past nine years. Dive a little deeper into how
06:35else he's benefited from them. So Democrats on the House Oversight Committee put out a report,
06:41I believe it was earlier this year, that showed $1.4 million in payments from the Secret Service
06:47to Donald Trump's properties while he was president. So essentially, they were paying
06:53Trump's businesses while they were there to protect him. Eric Trump had famously said that they, you know,
07:01yeah, they charge, but it's just it's just their costs. And that is that is not true. You can go
07:08back and we've obtained some records from FOIA showing that the per diem is is well above what the
07:15per cost rate is for a hotel room. So, you know, the report mentioned that this is just a small little
07:20drop that they've been able to find. They think the actual payments are much, much higher than this.
07:25But this is just what they were able to get from the Secret Service.
07:28For a lot of different businesses, when you're traveling for work, you have to adhere to certain
07:32guidelines depending on what level you're at. Does the Secret Service have any travel guidelines
07:37themselves? Yeah, you know, they're supposed to keep it somewhat reasonable. But unlike other
07:42government agencies, they don't have to follow just the GSA guidelines there. They need to pay what they
07:48need to pay to protect the president. So, you know, they do have a little bit more leeway there than
07:53other government agencies. And I know you looked at for reference what the Secret Service paid
07:58former President Biden. What was that number looking like? So, yeah, this was really interesting.
08:04This came out years ago that Joe Biden was actually charging the Secret Service to rent a cottage on his
08:11property in Wilmington, Delaware. So that had been known. But what hadn't been known is that actually
08:17they stopped in 2017. We submitted a FOIA request. We got the data through October 2023.
08:23And those payments did stop in 2017. So the total that he charged them was $172,000. And that was
08:30largely rent payments, monthly rent payments for the cottage going back to 2011. So, yes, he was
08:36charging the Secret Service for property that he owned. But the amount was obviously much, much smaller
08:41than what Donald Trump has charged the Secret Service.
08:43And, Zach, this is a really big number, $13 million. Has the White House, has TAG air,
08:49has anyone in Trump's orbit responded to requests for comment when you asked about it?
08:56No. The White House spokesperson declined to comment on the record. The Secret Service did just confirm
09:02the figures. You know, I originally was able to piece together the figures by looking through filings
09:06with the Federal Election Commission. The Secret Service essentially confirmed some of those.
09:12Their data was more recent than what the FEC had. And the White House did not respond to comment at
09:18all there. Or excuse me, not. Yeah, the White House did not respond on the record and the Trump
09:21organization did not respond. Zach, per usual, I appreciate the reporting. Thanks for joining me.
09:28Look forward to joining you again.
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