- 5/27/2025
India has launched a diplomatic offensive to corner Pakistan on the global stage following Operation Sindoor.
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00:00Hello and welcome once again to News Today. News without the noise. Before I come to my
00:06talking points and the top headlines of the day, I wish to state that tonight I will be
00:11making a major personal announcement. So do stay on to listen to that. But first, our
00:19big talking point tonight. Our talking point tonight is India's mission to label Pakistan
00:25a terror state working or not on the ground. Who really is winning the war of narratives?
00:33Also the return of COVID strains. Should you be worried? We'll be joined by top doctors
00:39on that as well. But first, as always, it's time for the nine headlines at yaar.
00:47Politics over Operation Sindoor now escalates. Congress hits out at Prime Minister Modi,
00:53says he's just an actor mouthing dialogues. Shiv Sena UBT calls Operation Sindoor a failure,
01:00even as Mr. Modi continues with his roadshows.
01:04Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah holds a key cabinet meeting in Pahalgam days
01:13after, a month after the terror attack. Omar Abdullah says terror won't halt tourism or
01:20progress in the state.
01:23Renamul Congress now joins the chorus for a special parliament session on Operation
01:30Sindoor and terrorism. TMC MPs write to Prime Minister Modi, calling for a special session
01:37once the all party delegations are back.
01:42India's fifth generation stealth fighter jet project gets a green light. Government approves
01:47development of AMCA prototype advanced medium combat jets.
01:55Political war of words takes flight over Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. Karnataka minister claims
02:02there's a bid to shift the HAL unit from Bengaluru to Hyderabad. Andhra government sources tell
02:07India today that Chandrababu Naidu made no pitch for HAL relocation.
02:14Oil spill scare off the Kerala coast. Day after cargo ship capsizes 30 containers washed
02:25up ashore. Experts warn of clean up challenges.
02:31Income tax return filing deadline extended to September 15th. IT department says additional
02:37time is required for system development, integration and e-filing utilities.
02:43The Trump administration set to end $100 million in remaining federal contracts with Harvard
02:51University told to find alternative vendors for the future.
02:55Over 50 pedestrians in Liverpool injured after car plows into a crowd during the Premier League
03:02victory parade. 53 year old car driver is arrested.
03:14As I said at the outset, I will be making a personal announcement in this show today.
03:20But before that, as always, it's time for our top story. And our top story yet again
03:26is over Operation Sindoor. The military operations have stopped, but the diplomatic operations
03:33are now slowly taking over. Remember, in the last few days, India has launched a diplomatic
03:39blitz in an attempt to corner Pakistan on the global stage, with several MPs delegations
03:46being sent across the world in an attempt to acknowledge Pakistan's role in promoting
03:51terrorism. Prime Minister Modi, on the other hand, is
03:54focusing on the domestic audience, making several statements across the country, making
04:00it clear Pakistan must give up on terror to have any meaningful ties with India.
04:06Multiparty delegations abroad, domestic political outreach at home. How is it all really working
04:14out? Is India going to be successful in telling the world that Pakistan is run by a rogue
04:21army that sponsors terror? That's going to be our big focus. Take a look first at how
04:28the politics and the diplomacy is playing out.
04:32I am saying this because this cannot be called a proxy war. Because the funerals of the terrorists
04:41were given to the state owners in Pakistan.
04:47Prime Minister Narendra Modi has been doing some plain speaking. Over the last few days,
04:55Prime Minister has sent out some stern messages to Pakistan, and more importantly, the people
05:01of that country.
05:03To free Pakistan from terrorism, the people of Pakistan will have to come forward. The
05:13youth of Pakistan will have to come forward. Live a life of peace and tranquillity. Eat
05:23your food, or else I will shoot you.
05:30In the days after Operation Sindhur, when the world seemed to focus on the brief India-Pakistan
05:35conflict, New Delhi is putting the spotlight back on the issue that matters to India – terrorism
05:41sponsored by Pakistan. Delegations of MPs from both ruling and opposition parties are
05:49crisscrossing the world.
05:51Bringing Pakistan in FATF is very important because our apprehension is that this two
05:56billion loan which IMF is giving, that will be used by Pakistani military.
06:02There is a very conscious effort today.
06:05External Affairs Minister S.J. Shankar has given multiple interviews to European media.
06:11I come to Berlin in the immediate aftermath of India responding to the Pahalgam terror attack.
06:20India has zero tolerance for terrorism. India will never give in to nuclear blackmail.
06:31And India will deal with Pakistan purely bilaterally.
06:37And Foreign Secretary Bikram Mishra is visiting the United States,
06:41where he will meet key American officials.
06:44Pakistan too is making its moves.
06:49Prime Minister Shahbaz Sharif is on a hastily planned four-nation tour of Turkey,
06:54Iran, Azerbaijan and Tajikistan. In Tehran, he called for talks with India.
07:00We are ready to talk for the sake of peace on water issue with our neighbour.
07:08We are ready to talk to promote trade and also counter terrorism if they are serious.
07:19But if they choose to remain aggressor, then we shall defend our territory and our country.
07:28India's messaging is constant and consistent.
07:31There can be no talks with Pakistan till the time they breed terror.
07:35New Delhi's mission is to expose Pakistan as a terror state in front of the world,
07:41a fact widely known but less acknowledged.
07:44Bureau Report, India Today.
08:05Who is really winning this war of narratives?
08:08Those are the questions I will raise tonight.
08:11Joining me now, Ambassador Vivek Kaju, former Secretary, Ministry of External Affairs.
08:16Also joining me, Brahma Chalani, strategic affairs expert.
08:20We also hope to be joined by Daniel Block,
08:22senior editor at Foreign Affairs Magazine and contributing editor to the Washington Monthly.
08:27I appreciate all of you joining us.
08:30I want to come to Mr. Kaju first.
08:32What's your sense?
08:33In the last few days, this diplomatic offensive, MPs being sent across the world,
08:40External Affairs Minister Jai Shankar giving a series of interviews now to foreign channels.
08:46Is it working?
08:47Or do you believe that this should have happened much earlier
08:50and therefore it is a bit of a missed opportunity?
08:54No, I do believe it should have happened earlier.
08:58But it was important for us at this stage also to tell the world
09:05that it is not only important to acknowledge Pakistan as a state which breeds terrorism,
09:12which uses terrorism as an instrument of policy,
09:17which has made terrorism a part of a strategic doctrine,
09:20but that India has no alternative but to respond to Pakistani terror
09:28through kinetic means that the days which stretched over a quarter of a century
09:36when India was expected to absorb Pakistani terror are over.
09:42And therefore, the real message that we are sending the world
09:46is that it must put pressure on Pakistan to abandon the path of this.
09:53It's not an easy thing to achieve, but we must try that.
10:00But how is it different, Mr. Kaju, from what we've done in the past?
10:06You've been a secretary in the government of India.
10:10You look closely at the AFPAC and the Pakistan desk.
10:13What is different in the messaging now compared to the past?
10:17And the world didn't listen to us then.
10:18Will they listen now?
10:20Look, after 1998, after the tests, it was my experience that the world focused
10:30not on Pakistan's initial terrorism as an escalatory measure, but on our response.
10:38Today, we are telling the world, and this is something that, if you permit me,
10:44I've been writing for a good 10 years, that the original, and this is,
10:49these are the terms that I'm happy Vikram Mishra used now,
10:52that the original escalation between nuclear states
10:56lies in a provocative act like a terrorist attack.
11:01And if you permit me one more sentence, Rajdeep,
11:04throughout the Cold War, the Soviets and the Americans played all kinds of games
11:13through their proxies.
11:15And these games included the proxies targeting the soldiers, each other's soldiers in Vietnam,
11:23in Afghanistan.
11:24But never did these two superpowers, these nuclear powers, play games on each other's territory.
11:31The closest it came to a real crisis was in 1962 in Cuba, and what is not so well known
11:40in 1987, when NATO launched what was called the Able Archer exercise.
11:46Apart from that, they refrained from provocation on each other's territory.
11:53Pakistan has turned to that nuclear doctrine, which developed in Europe
11:58and in the United States and the West, for its sake.
12:01And it started using nuclear weapons as a shield.
12:06And the world came to us and said, you are big boys.
12:11We will try to do everything we can to get Pakistan off the terror disease.
12:19But please, it's too dangerous, it's escalatory, so don't respond kinetically.
12:25Now, what has happened is we've said that below the nuclear threshold, there is space
12:31for kinetic action.
12:33And that is why the terminology being used by the government, which the prime minister began,
12:40was to say we will not succumb to nuclear blackmail, which means we've not developed proxies.
12:47We don't have a Lashkar-e-Taiba or a Jaysh-e-Mohammad-like organization which can undertake
12:51terrorism in Pakistan.
12:53So what do we do?
12:54The only thing that we can do is use kinetic action and we will use that.
13:00That is the challenge before us.
13:02To tell one last sentence, to tell the world that, look, please put pressure on Pakistan,
13:08that escalation lies in their terrorism, not in our response.
13:14You heard Professor Brahma Chalani, Vivek Kaju, give that rather detailed explanation
13:20of how India's diplomatic offensive is moving.
13:24But the fact is, do you believe, Professor Chalani, that Pakistan is being cornered by
13:31the kind of diplomatic offensive that we've launched?
13:35Or do you believe Pakistan will get away with it yet again?
13:38Let me be frank, Rajdeep.
13:40India won the battle, but lost the narrative.
13:45Indian strikes achieved the objective of imposing costs without triggering an all-out war.
13:51India effectively pierced the perceived immunity conferred by Pakistan's nuclear deterrent.
13:58By the end of the three-day war, Indian airstrikes had crippled the Indian air force.
14:03By the end of the three-day war, Indian airstrikes had crippled major Pakistani air bases,
14:10including Nur Khan and Balari, without suffering any confirmed retaliatory damage.
14:17In fact, this three-day conflict exposed the vulnerabilities of the
14:20Chinese weapon platforms on which Pakistan relied.
14:24But India failed to translate its short-term victory into achieving the larger goal of
14:31advancing the overall struggle against a rogue neighbor that exports terrorism.
14:38And losing the international narrative holds significance.
14:42It signifies failing to influence the broader international perception and understanding
14:48of the core issue.
14:49The core issue being Pakistan's cross-border terrorism.
14:54That core issue triggered the recent military…
14:55But what could India…
14:56Professor, what could India…
14:58Brahma, what could India have done that they didn't do?
15:01What could India have done that they didn't do, in your view,
15:03which now perhaps they are attempting to do with this diplomatic offensive?
15:09The thing is that the core issue has fallen by the wayside.
15:12Why did India lose the international narrative?
15:15There are two reasons for it.
15:17One reason is that successive Indian governments have focused narrowly on
15:22shaping the domestic narrative, thereby ceding the international narrative by default.
15:28Operation Sindhu is merely the latest example.
15:31Sending delegations of MPs abroad was the equivalent of seeking to close the stable door
15:38after the horse had bolted.
15:40That is, after the global narrative had already hardened.
15:43The second reason is that in keeping with India's bureaucratic culture,
15:48India often responds too slowly, allowing others to define the narrative first.
15:54India needs to remember that to shape international opinion…
15:56But what is this narrative?
15:57Brahma, allow me to challenge you.
16:01The fact is, when you say that we've lost the narrative, how have we lost the narrative?
16:05I mean, the world surely knows and acknowledges Pakistan-based cross-border terrorism.
16:11This is not something new.
16:12It's been going on for three decades.
16:14Are you telling me that the world needs to wake up now
16:16and the narrative has suddenly been lost by India on terrorism?
16:21There is a broad and widely accepted international consensus,
16:24backed by numerous international reports, intelligence assessments and historical events,
16:29that Pakistan has provided support, sanctuary and training to various terrorist groups.
16:35We're talking about Operation Sindhu and how it was portrayed internationally.
16:40We have to remember that Pakistan was quick to spread empty boasts and even outright lies,
16:47including that it downed five Indian warplanes on the first day of the conflict.
16:52That claim was picked up and highlighted by the international media
16:55because there was no quick Indian rebuttal.
16:58We all know that Trump announced a ceasefire ahead of India or Pakistan,
17:02but to respond to Trump's boast that he brokered the ceasefire, India took two full days.
17:09By then, the world had come to believe that the US mediated an end to the military hostilities
17:16and the Indian response to Trump's statement that he used the threat of trade suspension
17:21to force India's hand came after three days.
17:25India has to remember that in public diplomacy, time is of the essence.
17:32To shape international opinion, India must act swiftly by issuing timely statements and
17:38rebuttals to counter disinformation.
17:41The irony is this, Rajdeep, that India framed Operation Sindhu in powerful symbolism as
17:48Indian women avenging the murder of 26 husbands.
17:52But that powerful symbolism was not backed up by a proactive public diplomacy to shape
17:59the international narrative through timely statements and rebuttals.
18:02What can delegations of MPs do now when the international narrative has already hardened?
18:11Has the international narrative, Daniel Block, hardened?
18:15Are you getting a sense that the world already has taken sides?
18:20Or do you believe that Brahmachalani is being a little unfair to India, saying we were a little
18:24late with telling the world exactly how we were the victims yet again of a terror attack from
18:30Pakistan?
18:34I don't know if hardened is the word that I would use, but I do think that much of the
18:38world has moved beyond this and are now focusing on other things, which is to say that the
18:43conflict in the fighting between India and Pakistan is obviously a huge story in both
18:49of those countries.
18:50But in Washington, at least, it's not the dominant news item.
18:54It slipped not just kind of off the front pages of newspapers, but more or less out
18:58of the news altogether.
19:00I think it's important to remember that the United States never really wanted to get involved
19:04in this conflict.
19:05And I think that's true for a lot of other stories as well, sorry, a lot of other states
19:09as well.
19:09To the extent that they did get involved, it was because they were mostly concerned about
19:13nuclear escalation.
19:15These are two nuclear armed states that are fighting each other.
19:18Now, that's not to say that in various corners of Washington, people aren't thinking about
19:22this anymore.
19:23Of course, they are.
19:24It's not to say that the US government won't still be more involved in this than it was
19:28before.
19:29I think they probably will be largely out of concerns of nuclear escalation.
19:34But I do think that we're moving beyond that.
19:38And we're less concerned now with questions of who won or who lost, who's the victim and
19:43who isn't.
19:44I do think there will be continued focus on trying to get Pakistan to support terrorist
19:49actors less, with a recognition that the Pakistani government is very complex and often the left
19:54hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.
19:56But it's not a huge story anymore here in the United States.
20:02It's not a huge story anymore in the United States.
20:04Remember, Shashi Tharoor is leading that delegation to the United States and countries in the
20:11Western, in that part of the world.
20:14Dr. Tharoor has always been very articulate making his statements.
20:18But is it again, the question, too little, too late?
20:21And does it really make that kind of impact?
20:24Listen to what Shashi Tharoor said only today when he was in Guyana, when he spoke to the
20:30Guyanese leadership there.
20:32This is Shashi Tharoor on Pakistan.
20:33Listen in.
20:35Well, there was certainly a desire on the part of the terrorists to provoke communal
20:39tensions in India between the Hindu and Muslim communities.
20:42That failed spectacularly.
20:45All communities rallied around in a very united manner.
20:48And what was, again, very effective was that in the briefings that the Indian government
20:54and the Indian military gave every day during these four days of conflict, two of the military
21:02officers doing the briefing were women officers, and one of them was a Muslim, which sent a
21:08very clear message to the world or anyone who was watching that this is not about Hindu,
21:14Muslim or anything like that.
21:16This is about terrorism and terrorist enablers versus democratic India.
21:22OK, let me go straight with that to you, Vivek Karju.
21:25You're hearing Shashi Tharoor there, articulate as ever, speaking about the fact that this
21:31terror attack was designed to stir a Hindu-Muslim divide.
21:34Now, do you need a Shashi Tharoor to do that, to go to Guyana, to go to South America, to
21:40go to the US to make this point heard loud and clear?
21:44Or could our diplomats have done it on their own?
21:46What does this say about the state of Indian diplomacy that we need to send our MPs in
21:51these all-party delegations to make these points?
21:53Or are these, as the cynics say, mere photo ops?
21:57Look, Rajdeep, I won't get into the politics of this.
22:02I've been a diplomat and I'll respond to you in terms of diplomacy.
22:07Obviously, there's a political element apart from the diplomatic significance of an all-party
22:12delegation going and meeting interlocutors.
22:16But I'll take off from what Mr Block said.
22:20Terrorism is no longer an international priority.
22:23It is low down in terms of global priority.
22:31The priority today is how to deal with Trump and his erratic policies and the overarching
22:39China-US rivalry.
22:43What the world is concerned with, and Mr Block mentioned that, is escalation.
22:49Our challenge at the moment is how to ensure that the strategic, international strategic
23:00community understands that the escalation process between nuclear states begins with
23:09a terrorist attack, which is completely unacceptable, as the Pahelgaam attack was.
23:14That is going to be a long-term process.
23:17I wish the government had begun this process many, many years ago.
23:22I wish that our strategic community had started writing about it.
23:27We fell into the trap and our strategic community...
23:30But it's not just that, Mr Khadju.
23:31If I may, Mr Khadju, if I may intervene, you know, look, in 2022, if I'm not mistaken,
23:38Pakistan was moved out of the nuclear deal.
23:41Pakistan was moved out of the FATF grey list.
23:46Should we have protested much more strongly at the IMF?
23:50While the IMF loans may not be linked specifically to what a country does when it comes to terror,
23:56surely we could have made our voice heard loud and clear.
23:59Are you saying these were all missed opportunities?
24:02Should we have kept the heat on Pakistan for a much longer period?
24:06No, because we are in a bit of a bind.
24:11And the bind is that the international community does not want a nuclear Somalia.
24:17Pakistan has over 220 million people.
24:21It has nuclear weapons.
24:23And the world simply cannot contemplate an unstable Pakistan.
24:29Therefore, our task is to ensure that the world puts pressure on Pakistan.
24:35And that's a long-term process.
24:38And the Pakistan government, as Mr Block said, is a complex government.
24:42But I think if the international community, the major powers understand what we are saying,
24:47as they should, because otherwise we will use kinetic action.
24:52And that is something that we made it clear.
24:55Now, as far as Mr Khadju, I'm just showing Mr Khadju, I'm just showing images of the
25:01Pakistan prime minister with Shah, with the Turkish President Erdogan.
25:07We know Pakistan's strong relationship with China.
25:13Given all that, when you say the world community will come together,
25:16there are countries which are simply unwilling to call Pakistan out
25:21because of their close alliances.
25:23Yes, but if countries of the European Union, the major powers, if the United States were
25:32to tell the Chinese, the Turks don't matter.
25:36Quite frankly, Iran doesn't matter.
25:38And there's Azerbaijan and Tajikistan.
25:41These are the four countries Shahbaz Sharif is visiting.
25:44They really don't matter.
25:45But if the Americans were to have a straight dialogue with China to say that,
25:51look, the Indians have lost patience and it's getting too dangerous.
25:54And you better rein in your allies or your vassals or whatever you may call them,
25:59that they can't use terror anymore.
26:01My last point, I think I have great respect for Brahma's strategic vision,
26:12his knowledge on these affairs.
26:14But I think he's, if I may submit for his consideration, two points.
26:20One, when you are dealing with this erratic personality who, like Donald Trump,
26:30and you are engaged in trade discussions with him, you are engaged in matters with him,
26:36which are vital to your economic interests and other interests,
26:40then there will always be a time lag between his statements and a government's response.
26:50That is the nature of how governments behave.
26:53I've been part of, in my diplomatic career, I have been part of government processes.
26:59It's not very easy.
27:00You can't, if Trump says something, you can't come back with a snappy one-liner immediately.
27:06You've got to think it carefully.
27:07And my second point is this.
27:11Narrative building, at the end of the day, really is transient.
27:18It's of transient value.
27:20The real thing we've got to do is to change the strategic thinking in the strategic community
27:29of the West and other parts of the globe on escalation.
27:35That is the point I'm referring to again and again, because I believe that is the way to see life.
27:39You made that point earlier as well.
27:42You made that point and you made that strongly.
27:44Therefore, given what was just said, I want to play out what Dr. Jai Shankar said
27:53on the US during the ceasefire, because as Mr. Kajus pointed out,
27:58dealing with Trump has become the real challenge for the world.
28:02And therefore, in a sense, it's not about terror only.
28:04It's about how do you deal with a US president.
28:07Listen to what Dr. Jai Shankar said.
28:11And where was the US in this process?
28:14Well, the US was in the United States.
28:16I mean, obviously, there were US Secretary of State Rubio and Vice President Vance had called up.
28:26Rubio had spoken to me.
28:27Vance had spoken to our Prime Minister.
28:30You know, they had their view and they were talking to us.
28:36And they were talking to Pakistanis as indeed were some other countries.
28:41I mean, the United States was not alone in this.
28:43I think there were some countries in the Gulf.
28:46There were some others as well.
28:48You know, that happens naturally when two countries are engaged in a conflict.
28:55You know, that's the point, Brahma.
28:57A lot of this is happening behind the scenes.
28:59You're saying India should have reacted instantly the moment Trump, in a way,
29:03tried to claim credit for the ceasefire, almost tried to internationalize Kashmir.
29:08In diplomacy, certain things have to be done behind the scenes.
29:12Brahma Chalani is the point, I think, that Mr. Khadju is making.
29:17Ambassador Khadju makes a fair point.
29:20I was giving you examples of India's slow response.
29:23For example, the Pakistani claim on the first day of the conflict that it had downed five
29:28Indian warplanes.
29:29Wasn't that pictured by the international media?
29:31Wasn't that highlighted?
29:32Even today, just two days ago, I got a call from the editor of a well-respected international
29:39publication about this Pakistani claim.
29:43That claim hasn't been dispelled even today.
29:46But on the larger issue…
29:48What if the claim is true?
29:50What if the claim is true, Brahma?
29:52We don't want to get into the claim.
29:53Maybe we want to focus only on the issue of terror.
29:57Well, the Indian military, in its briefing, has mentioned that all Indian pilots returned
30:04home safely.
30:06And they have also pointed to Pakistan's record of making exaggerated claims, claims that
30:14proved to be false later.
30:16But I think I want to come to the fundamental issue.
30:19You mentioned the US.
30:22The real outcome from Operation Sindhu is the wake-up call India has got from the US.
30:31Two successive US administrations, first Biden and now Trump, have sent a wake-up call to
30:38India that the US is not a reliable strategic partner of India.
30:44Biden was the one who initiated the bailout.
30:48IMF packages for Pakistan.
30:52Two, actually, one after another.
30:54It is he who modernized and upgraded Pakistan's F-16 fleet against India.
31:00It is his administration that took the lead in helping Pakistan exit the FATF grey list.
31:08And now Trump.
31:10Trump has opened India's eyes.
31:13He has equated the terror-sponsoring state with the victim, India.
31:18He has amplified the international focus on the Kashmir issue.
31:22Notably, Trump has remained silent on the root cause of the crisis, cross-border terrorism.
31:27He hasn't uttered a single word on that root cause of the crisis, while he has sought to
31:34portray Kashmir as the central dispute.
31:38And in fact, all this aligns with Pakistan's long-standing tactic of using the Kashmir
31:43issue as a smokescreen to legitimize its terror operations.
31:47I think when history is written, this Operation Sindhu will be seen as fundamentally shifting
31:58India's foreign policy toward strategic self-reliance.
32:03You know, I want to bring in Daniel Block on that final, to get a final word to what
32:06you heard from Brahma Chalani just now.
32:09It's the United States, in a sense, which has once again, like it or not, because of
32:15the way this has played out, hyphenated India and Pakistan.
32:18That's what many people fear.
32:21Do you believe those fears are justified?
32:23Or do you believe India's, the US does see India very differently to Pakistan?
32:29And maybe Brahma Chalani is exaggerating the impact that this Trumpian worldview will have
32:38on the subcontinent.
32:41Well, I think with everything Trump-related, making forward-looking predictions is very
32:46difficult.
32:46And with that as a caveat, I'll give it my best shot.
32:49I think when it comes to Trump and Kashmir, you have a sense here that Trump loves to
32:55fashion himself as a great dealmaker, as a great negotiator.
32:59And so I think there's a sense of personal ego that's probably tied up in his offers,
33:05you know, in the past to mediate over Kashmir, or his sense that he could come to some sort
33:11of permanent solution over that.
33:13I think that that's played up in his own personal ego, and that most elements of the United
33:16States government don't think that that's true.
33:20When it comes to the question of hyphenating, I think the United States really would like
33:25to be closer to India still to deal with the threat from China.
33:30I think that that's probably where the U.S. strategic community stands.
33:33But I do think that after this, the United States government probably has a sense that
33:37it needs to focus, again, more on the India-Pakistan relationship.
33:41Because again, it's scared of escalation.
33:44It's scared of the fact that things might ramp up and that these are two nuclear-armed
33:48states.
33:49And in terms of, you know, who it blames, or seeing India as the victim and Pakistan
33:53as the aggressor, I think that there's absolutely a sense that the Pakistani government is doing
33:59a very bad job, to put it mildly, of dealing with terrorism that's emanating from within
34:03its borders.
34:04But I also think there are elements of the U.S. government and the U.S. foreign policy
34:08community more broadly that are worried about some of the hyper-nationalism that's emanating
34:13from India.
34:14They worry that that's going to prompt more escalation than is necessary, that that could
34:18become quite dangerous and combustible.
34:21So I don't think they see it narrowly as one side is to blame, the other is a clear
34:26victim.
34:27And I think that that's going to concern them, especially, again, I can't emphasize
34:31enough how much escalation is driving U.S. involvement in this, the fear that this conflict
34:35could go nuclear.
34:38I think that is the central fact that we've got out of this very educative conversation.
34:43The real worry for the world is, will this conflict escalate, and if next, to what level?
34:50The real concern for India is, what will the world do to stop Pak-based terror?
34:55And the question is, can we do enough to put terror above the fears that the West has over
35:01escalation?
35:02I thank all my three guests for joining me and giving us a sense of how this diplomatic
35:07war is likely to be waged in the months ahead.
35:11Thank you all very much for joining me.
35:13I want to come from there to my other big talking point today.
35:16India has now reported over a thousand active COVID cases.
35:21India reported a rapid spike in new COVID-19 cases just in the last few days, with the
35:27spike in infections taking the country's overall case loads to over a thousand.
35:32Kerala, Maharashtra, Delhi were the states that saw the most number of new infections
35:37in the last one week.
35:38The Union Health Secretary reviewed the recent COVID-19 cases, noting most cases are mild
35:44and can be managed at home.
35:45Union Health Secretary has urged people to not worry and need not wear, but instead wear
35:51masks in crowded places and get tested if they have any symptoms of COVID.
36:00So is COVID back again, or is this simply a mild strain?
36:06Joining us now, our very special guests who were part, remember, of our COVID coverage
36:10that we did for a couple of years.
36:13Joining me is Dr. Swaminathan.
36:16He's the Head of Infectious Diseases at Gleneagles Hospital in Chennai.
36:20And joining me here in the studio is an old friend, Dr. Hemant Thakkar, one of Mumbai's
36:27leading physicians.
36:28I appreciate both of you joining us because I want you all to take the FAQs that we are
36:32getting on COVID.
36:35Is it back is the big question.
36:37And that's what I want to ask.
36:38The first big question, Dr. Swaminathan, what is this latest variant of coronavirus?
36:45And is it really back?
36:47And should we be worried?
36:50The question is not, is it back?
36:52The question is, has it ever gone away?
36:54The answer is no.
36:55It's always been around.
36:56It's just that there is a new variant of something where we have had a long list of variants.
37:03Just one more new kid on the block.
37:05It's slightly immunologically different from the pre-existing strain.
37:09So we are seeing a spike in the number of infections.
37:11That is to be anticipated.
37:13It's now become almost like a seasonal event like the influenza virus.
37:18It's still not good to that level.
37:20And therefore, it will keep going round and round like one of those lost Sputnik rockets.
37:24And it's just something we have to learn to live with.
37:26That doesn't mean it's going to create a nightmare scenario or anything that is causing
37:30panic.
37:31I think what we need to understand is that these kind of problems will happen.
37:36We will weather this.
37:37It's not going to be a major storm.
37:41Dr. Thakkar, are you getting a lot of cases of people coming with flu with a mild variant
37:47of coronavirus?
37:48And is it in any way something to worry about, to panic about?
37:52So after Enter the Dragon, we have phase two, Return of the Dragon.
37:58But this dragon has lost its teeth and lost its energy.
38:03We're seeing lots of flu-like symptoms where patients come with cough and cold, but it's
38:10the extreme fatigue that brings in, is this the new COVID variant?
38:16So we are seeing a lot of patients with this, but it's short.
38:21And in effect, the patients almost completely recover, except for the ones with chronic
38:28diseases.
38:30You know, it's interesting that you're saying that in most cases, people recover, because
38:35I think what was the worry, Dr. Thakkar, with the previous variants, of course, was the
38:41fact that it pushed a lot of people into fatalities.
38:46You're saying in this instance, it's a mild strain.
38:49Am I correct?
38:50Absolutely.
38:51You must remember that 56% of our population is vaccinated, 70% have had one vaccine.
39:00So in addition to the fact that the variant is mild, it's also facing the steely wall
39:08of vaccination and your old vaccination is seen to work immunologically.
39:14That's the next question I want to raise.
39:17Immunity from past infections and vaccine enough?
39:20If I was vaccinated, took two doses, is that enough, Dr. Swaminathan?
39:27Or do you believe that whether it is Covishield, is that enough?
39:34Absolutely.
39:34See, let's make this very clear.
39:37If the Omicron had hit us before the Delta, we would have had as much carnage, if not
39:41more.
39:42But we learned from Delta, we learned from the vaccine and we learned from hybrid immunity
39:48so much so that Delta, the Omicron variant, was an interesting statistical phenomenon
39:54and epidemiologically, we learned a lot.
39:56But clinically speaking, it didn't really make much of a difference for most people.
40:01And I believe the same thing is going to happen with the JN1 variant as well and all future
40:06variants to come, at least for the conceivable future, unless something new happens.
40:10And therefore, our immune system has been educated well enough.
40:15And therefore, I think at this point, there is nothing really for us to get too excited
40:20about.
40:23The reason, of course, Dr. Swaminathan, that people are getting excited about is the fact
40:28that cases have crossed a thousand.
40:30But you're saying it could be like any other influenza, which will come year after year
40:35and probably get milder by the year.
40:37Am I correct?
40:39Absolutely.
40:40I have been on your channel for quite a long time, as you've noted in the past as well.
40:44And I've had this nasty habit of making predictions.
40:48And I stand by my conviction that this is also something that will come to pass.
40:53See, please understand that the immunological response to it seems to be pretty robust.
41:00And like Dr. Thakkar pointed out very clearly, most people are having a very mild, but yes,
41:06uncomfortable illness, no doubt.
41:08The concern is going to be primarily of those who are extremely debilitated and whether
41:12they will be able to weather the storm.
41:14I think we don't have enough data about that and they need a little bit of monitoring.
41:18But for the vast majority of us, this is just going to be something which is a passing cloud,
41:23which may give us a little bit of a beating, but not necessarily something that's going to
41:27cause us significant damage either in the short or the long run.
41:33But what we are getting, Dr. Thakkar, is a number of cases in recent weeks of people
41:37with flu. Now, is that, again, seasonal?
41:39The fact is monsoons are here in Mumbai.
41:44In all the people who are coming to you, are you getting those with clear COVID symptoms
41:49or is it just a regular flu in most instances?
41:51There is so much of overlap between the flu symptoms and the COVID symptoms.
41:58This time, because in erstwhile times when our immunities were low,
42:04the COVID symptoms had breathlessness, ground glassing, air hunger, saturation drops.
42:12So now with this admix of the seasonal flu with the monsoon flu and the resurgence of COVID,
42:20it's all an overlap and mixed.
42:23But I'm again emphasizing what Dr. Swaminathan also said.
42:27We will weather the storm, but that doesn't mean we take it lightly
42:33because this virus has a bark which is bigger than its bite.
42:39The numbers are going up, so it is barking all over the place.
42:43So do not forget all the restrictions and care that we took.
42:48May not be that severely, but you have to mask in public places.
42:54Try and be hygienic.
42:57And if you do that, you will protect the seniors at home
43:01and the immunocompromised who are likely to get scarred even with the mild virus.
43:07No, so are you saying social distancing only for those who develop the symptoms?
43:13I mean, should I be wearing a mask now out in the open today?
43:17Like you and me are sitting less than three feet away, still we are not wearing masks.
43:23I would say if you're in the house or in the office,
43:26if you are asymptomatic, you don't need the mask.
43:30But if you want to see a film, see it at home.
43:33If you want to go to a crowded place, postpone it till the monsoon washes the virus away.
43:40Be a little more careful when indulging in public places
43:45and allow this seasonal COVID or upsurge in COVID
43:50to gently pass away without leaving a big ditch in the dump.
43:55Dr. Swaminathan, more specifically, a question that is asked,
43:58how is this NB 0.1, 0.8, 0.1 different from earlier variants?
44:03You mentioned Omicron Delta.
44:05What exactly is this new virus is a question being asked?
44:10See, RNA viruses are inherently very
44:15incompetent at replication and they make lots of errors.
44:19In a way, it's a survival advantage which allows them to keep evolving.
44:22Flu virus has been doing this for millennia.
44:24And that's why we keep getting hit by a flu season every year.
44:28And last year's vaccine is not a great fit.
44:30And Omicron is also an RNA respiratory virus,
44:33which is also having the same problem of poor replicative fidelity.
44:38And therefore, these kinds of mutations will happen.
44:41Remember, millions of mutations happen.
44:43But except one, the rest of it is going to fall out
44:46because they don't give it any advantage.
44:48It has to have a survival advantage in terms of replicability and transmissibility.
44:53This one has a little bit of an edge over the pre-existing variant.
44:57That's why it's moving forward.
44:58But let us not confuse the transmissibility for
45:02the capability to produce severe infection or unusual infection.
45:07See, that's the cornerstone of the variant of interest
45:09and variant of concern distinction that WHO makes.
45:12They've called it a variant of interest because it's transmitting faster.
45:15And I don't need another vaccine.
45:20Am I correct?
45:22I don't know if the vaccine is going to provide a significant game changer in this setting.
45:29See, I would probably consider the vaccine for my extremely elderly, vulnerable,
45:34like my stem cell transplant and things like that.
45:36But even there, I would say it's a caveat saying I may consider it.
45:40Mass vaccination at this point is unlikely to change anything.
45:43One, the wave is already here.
45:45We are trying to get a vaccination campaign done.
45:48At this point, it makes no sense.
45:49Two, we already have hybrid immunity, like has been pointed out.
45:52So I don't see a big value.
45:54And three, look at the data about what's happening in the rest of the world.
45:58Really, nothing much is happening.
45:59Four, I'm coming to you from Singapore.
46:01The whole day I've been traveling around in Singapore,
46:03and I can tell you nobody is wearing a mask.
46:05Nobody is worrying about all of this.
46:06And the Singapore government has been conspicuously silent about it
46:10because they don't want any unnecessary panic.
46:12I'm not saying we should be running around willy-nilly spreading the virus.
46:16But the opposite should not be that we go into hibernation and call it quits
46:21and say, let's really get ready for a lockdown.
46:23I think some kind of middle ground is good.
46:25Like Dr. Thakkar said, take your own safety in your own hands.
46:29If you're a person with poor immunity, stay home, wear a mask,
46:34don't get into unnecessary trouble at this point of time.
46:36I don't know if the vaccine is a game changer.
46:38I am not for it.
46:39We don't have any new vaccines.
46:41Remember that.
46:41All the vaccines are the old vaccines.
46:44So whether it will be a great fit for the current strain, not likely.
46:48Whether it will give you any additional clicks out of it, unlikely.
46:51What would help is probably better availability of antivirals,
46:55especially for those who are symptomatic, to get them better faster,
46:58to reduce the risk of long COVID.
47:01And also for those who are vulnerable,
47:03who may have the risk of progression to severe disease.
47:07So therefore, in conclusion, doctor, am I right?
47:10A, don't panic.
47:11B, if you develop the symptoms, take all the necessary precautions,
47:14particularly if you are in vulnerable groups like the elderly.
47:17But for now, am I right in saying, and this is my final FAQ,
47:21is COVID simply just like another flu?
47:25We should treat it just like another flu without sort of harking back
47:29to what happened a couple of years ago and panicking about it.
47:32Don't leave the shadow behind.
47:35For the simple reason, don't take it lightly.
47:39This virus can anytime come back and give you trouble if you allow it to.
47:45So if you allow it to live by and you allow it to die on its own, you'll be okay.
47:51But you have to have the precautions.
47:53If you have tested positive, stay away for two days.
47:57Don't go into crowded offices.
48:00And look after the elderly people and keep them isolated from you.
48:05Don't take any flu lightly.
48:08Leave alone this COVID flu, because it is still the adjective COVID attached to it.
48:14But don't change the way your lifestyle.
48:17We don't have to necessarily change your lifestyle in terms of the manner in which
48:24we had to do a few years ago, because the very word COVID
48:27brings in words like social distancing, lockdowns, stay at home.
48:31You're saying that you don't have to change your lifestyle anymore.
48:34Live normally, live carefully.
48:37Live normally, live carefully is the message here from Dr. Thakkar.
48:42And I think that is the general message that Dr. Swaminathan also gave.
48:47And I think, therefore, that maybe for once, we can hope that the worst certainly is over.
48:54The C word need not always lead to the P word, i.e. panic.
48:59Dr. Swaminathan, Dr. Thakkar, for joining me here today.
49:03Thank you very much.
49:04In fact, let's turn to our good news today, story of the day.
49:08It's about Mangala Awale, a 65-year-old woman from Maharashtra who's breaking stereotypes
49:14and inspiring many by driving a passenger rickshaw, despite her age and health challenges.
49:20She is a young woman.
49:22Mangala Awale is quite a driven woman.
49:26What else would explain Mangala picking up a completely new job at the age of 65?
49:33She started driving an auto rickshaw in Nandgaon,
49:36a small town in Maharashtra's Satara district, just a few days ago.
49:43I was very happy when I was driving the auto rickshaw.
49:45I was very happy when I was driving the auto rickshaw.
49:48I used to say that I felt good, I used to be happy even when I was sitting.
49:54I used to say that it was good.
49:56I used to ask one question, what are you going to do by learning now?
50:00Are you going to do a job?
50:02Mangala's husband passed away long time ago.
50:05She raised her son and three daughters, working as a labourer.
50:10While her daughters are married and son is employed as a driver with the State Transport Corporation,
50:16Mangala did not want to be a burden on them.
50:37Commuters say Mangala is an inspiration for them.
50:46We should have hope that at any age, when we get to learn something new, we should not be afraid.
50:55Mangala is in the field from 9 in the morning till 6 in the evening.
51:00After deducting expenses, she earns Rs. 500 to Rs. 700 every day.
51:07Vitsaklain Mulani, Bureau Report, India Today.
51:11Lovely, lovely story out there.
51:13That's what makes India different.
51:15That's what we hope makes the news today different.
51:18As I said at the very outset of this show, I had assured you I would make a major personal
51:23announcement today.
51:26So let me say it and say it loud and clear.
51:29I turned 60, 6-0, three days ago.
51:33It's normally the age for retirement.
51:36My commitment to the news in 2025 is the same that it was when I joined this profession
51:42that I treat as a passion and a journey 37 years ago in 1988.
51:48For the last 11 years, I have been with you here on India Today every night at 9pm.
51:54We have built, hopefully, a relationship based on trust.
51:58Thank you for your love, loyalty, and for watching the show, which is the number one
52:05primetime show in English news channels.
52:08I hope to continue that special relationship with just one motto, news without the noise,
52:15sense not sensation, credibility not chaos.
52:18What can I say?
52:20Thank you for your love, loyalty, and for watching the show, which is the number one
52:25primetime show in English news channels.
52:29See you tomorrow, same time, same place.
52:33Before that, let me leave you with our image of the day.
52:38Omar Abdullah making a point by cycling in Pahalgam.
52:43We hope one day sooner or later, the tourists will also come back to beautiful Pahalgam.
52:50Thanks for watching.
52:52Stay well, stay safe.
52:54Good night, good luck.
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