During a Senate Appropriations Committee hearing on Thursday, Sen. Jon Ossoff (D-GA) spoke about reported layoffs at the FDA.
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00:00Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and Dr. Macari, good to see you.
00:03Good to see you.
00:03Thank you for joining us.
00:05I was pleased to see that the secretary has made the safety of infant formula a priority for the department.
00:13Is that correct?
00:14That's right, and the FDA will be convening the world experts on infant formula June 4th,
00:21and we're going to be having a robust discussion because parents want infant formula options
00:26with a better supply chain and without added sugar and seed oils.
00:30Did you see a recent Consumer Reports study which found that of 41 tested infant formulas,
00:38more than 30 were found to have potentially dangerous levels of lead?
00:42Yeah, heavy metals in infant formula is something that's getting a lot of attention, as it should,
00:47and so that is part of Operation Stork Speed to take a hard look at that,
00:51and it is one of the priorities of our infant formula roundtable at the FDA on June 4th.
00:56And it's the human foods division of your agency responsible for infant formula safety,
01:03at least in large part, yes?
01:05Yes.
01:07Trying to make sure I understand some of the relevant personnel decisions,
01:11given the concern that families in Georgia have about the safety of infant formula,
01:17the safety of the food supply. James Jones, the deputy commissioner for human foods,
01:23submitted a resignation letter February 17th, included the quotes, quote,
01:29the indiscriminate firing of 89 staff in the human foods program is beyond short-sighted.
01:35The foods program staff at FDA is the envy of the world in its technical, professional,
01:39and ethical standards. It goes on, the employees fired this past weekend are the most recent hires
01:44and generally come to federal service with the most recent education and represent the future of the agency.
01:48They included staff with highly technical expertise in nutrition, infant formula, food safety response,
01:54and even 10 chemical safety staff hired to review potentially unsafe ingredients in our food supply.
02:00That was February 17th. You were asked on April 17th whether any of the personnel reductions
02:09had included personnel responsible for food safety or infant formula safety.
02:14You said, quote, there were no cuts to scientists or reviewers or inspectors, absolutely none.
02:20You were asked on April 23rd on CNN and said, quote, again,
02:24there were no cuts to scientists or inspectors.
02:27But then just two days later, an HHS spokesperson confirmed that, in fact, scientists had been fired
02:38and that you were scrambling to rehire them.
02:42Is that... Did you, in fact, say on April 23rd there were no cuts to scientists or inspectors?
02:49Just before we get into the details, is that an accurate quote?
02:51No scientific reviewer was cut as part of the reduction in force.
02:55But you said there were no cuts to scientists or inspectors. Didn't you say that?
02:58My understanding was that there were no cuts to the scientific staff,
03:03but specifically the scientific reviewers is what I was referring to.
03:06But you said there were... I mean, I've just...
03:08Jim Jones is an economist.
03:08It's a very straightforward question.
03:09You said there were no cuts to scientists or inspectors, correct?
03:12Scientific reviewers is what I was referring to.
03:15That's the vast majority of scientists there. Jim Jones is an economist.
03:18And then five days before you had said there were no cuts to scientists.
03:22You said that, right?
03:22I was referring to scientific reviewers. There are...
03:25But scientists had been fired, correct?
03:27There have been a couple... There have been research scientists in some labs that have been doing some research.
03:33Some of that research is good. Some of it is not good.
03:36And so there have been no cuts to scientific reviewers.
03:38And in fact, scientists who study the safety of infant formula had been fired, correct?
03:45I'm not aware of any scientist who studies infant formula.
03:49Well, here's the reporting in the New York Times.
03:53It says the HHS spokesman said those employees called back had been inadvertently fired.
03:59And the decision to rehire specialists on outbreaks of food-related illnesses
04:03and those who study the safety of products like infant formula...
04:07So is this reporting accurate?
04:09Had, in fact, scientists who study outbreaks of food-related illnesses and the safety of infant formula been fired?
04:17The reason it's not accurate, Senator, is that people were not fired.
04:21They were scheduled for the reduction in force.
04:23And when I...
04:24That was before I got there.
04:25When I got there, we did an assessment.
04:26And so some of those individuals out of the 19,000 were restored.
04:31Jim Jones was an economist, and he was upset about the doge cuts, so he self-doged.
04:37I didn't...
04:38He was not fired.
04:39I wish he would have stayed, but he chose to leave.
04:41Have all scientists responsible for food safety and infant formula safety been rehired or reinstated?
04:49Look, we have not reduced in force the scientific review staff.
04:55I know where you're going with this.
04:57We're not allowed to let go a single person.
04:57I'm trying to get clarity on your statement.
04:59You said there were no cuts to scientists, and then the HHS spokesperson said,
05:05actually, there were cuts to scientists, and now we're trying to rehire them.
05:08I mean, so it gives the impression you're not sure about the personnel actions ongoing in your own agency,
05:14and that's...
05:14Again, no one was cut.
05:15...indication from your testimony here again today.
05:17No one was cut in the reduction of force.
05:19They were scheduled for the reduction in the future.
05:23And down the road, it has not happened yet.
05:25So the people scheduled to be cut, we did a review and found some research scientists.
05:31When I made those statements, it was very specific.
05:33I was very clear.
05:34We're talking about scientific reviewers, because the trains have to run on time.
05:38And if you're concerned about backlogging labs...
05:39My time is up, my time is up, but you were very specific.
05:42You said there were no cuts to scientists, and then five days later, there were no cuts to scientists.
05:48Those are your direct quotes.
05:50There were no cuts to scientists, but there were cuts to scientists.
05:53No, there were no cuts to scientists, because people were scheduled for the reduction in force in the future,
05:59and the people scheduled were re-evaluated, and we restored a couple of research scientists.
06:06And I was referring not only to them, but to...
06:08How many?
06:09...to the scientific reviewers.
06:11How many scientists responsible for preventing outbreaks of food-related illnesses
06:17and the safety of infant formula have been restored or reinstated?
06:20There were no scientists that were in charge of preventing outbreaks that were part of...
06:26I didn't say in charge.
06:27But, I mean, this is the problem in government.
06:29Somebody has a fancy-sounding name like Infant Formula Safety, and no one can ever touch them,
06:34even if they're not doing their job.
06:36Okay, I'll tell you what.
06:36How about this?
06:37It's redundant.
06:37I'll send you, so that you can get accurate information to the committee,
06:42I'll send you some very detailed questions about this, and you'll respond in full, yes?
06:48Yes, just keep in mind, the agency was half its size in 2007.
06:52We didn't have outbreaks and rampages and food outbreaks.
06:55But we had a huge infant formula safety crisis in this country just a few years ago.
06:59Do you recall that?
06:59That was because of several problems, including...
07:02So you will respond in full to the questions that I send you.
07:05I'm always happy to respond in full to you, Senator.
07:06Thank you so much, Dr. McCarty.