- 7 months ago
Crown Court - Honour Thy Father and Thy Mother.
Jane Selsey (Amanda Parfitt) is accused of stabbing her father 3 times during a family quarrel.
Jane Selsey (Amanda Parfitt) is accused of stabbing her father 3 times during a family quarrel.
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TVTranscript
00:00:00The case which you're about to see is a fictional one, but the procedure, however, is legally
00:00:23accurate. The characters are played by actors, but the jury is selected from members of the
00:00:28public.
00:00:49I swear by almighty God that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth, the whole
00:00:52truth and nothing but the truth.
00:00:56Chief Inspector Raymond Wilkins, West Central Division, Fulchester.
00:00:59Inspector.
00:01:00My Lord, may I refer to my notebook from time to time? All notes were made at the time of
00:01:03my enquiries.
00:01:04Inspector, I'd like to come directly to the evening of the 8th of June. Now, did you receive
00:01:10a telephone call from the previous witness, Dr Chapman?
00:01:13Yes, I did. He telephoned me shortly before 11.30pm. As a result of what he told me, I
00:01:19went immediately to Fulchester General Hospital.
00:01:21And did you, while at the hospital, interview the father of the accused, Mr James Seldon?
00:01:26I did.
00:01:27Now, we've heard from Dr Chapman that Mr Seldon was admitted to Fulchester General Hospital
00:01:31with three stab wounds. Did you interview him about these wounds?
00:01:36I did. I talked to him for nearly 45 minutes. He was extremely reluctant to make a formal
00:01:41statement, but eventually agreed.
00:01:42My Lord, that statement has been produced. Exhibit 5.
00:01:45Yes. Do you intend calling this James Seldon as a witness?
00:01:48Yes, my Lord, I do.
00:01:49Very well. Proceed.
00:01:51You were telling the court that Mr Selzy was extremely reluctant to make a formal statement?
00:01:56Yes. Kept saying he didn't want the police involved.
00:01:59Well, did he explain why he didn't want the police involved?
00:02:01My Lord, in view of the fact that Mr Selzy is not on trial and that my learned friend
00:02:04has indicated that he intends to call him as a witness, I submit that this line of questioning
00:02:08should be directed at Mr Selzy and not at the detective inspector.
00:02:12Yes, I'm inclined to agree, Mr Hurston.
00:02:15I'm obliged to you, Lordship. Having eventually obtained a statement from Mr Selzy, what was
00:02:21your next course of action?
00:02:22I went to his home, number 14 Ridge Avenue, Fulchester, and interviewed the entire family.
00:02:28Well, as my Lord and the jury have not had the privilege of meeting the Selzy family,
00:02:32perhaps you'd tell the court to whom you spoke.
00:02:34His wife and two daughters.
00:02:36And were they cooperative?
00:02:37No, sir, they were extremely uncooperative. Subsequently, all three accompanied me to
00:02:41Fulchester West Central and eventually made formal statements. I then cautioned Jane Selzy.
00:02:47The accused?
00:02:48Yes, I cautioned her and told her that she would be charged with wounding James Selzy,
00:02:52her father, with intent to cause bodily harm. She replied, Why don't you leave us alone?
00:02:58This is a family matter. She was then formally cautioned and charged, and she remained silent
00:03:02after being charged.
00:03:04Thank you, Inspector. No further questions.
00:03:08Detective Inspector Wilkins, you were advised that Mr Selzy had been stabbed by Dr Chapman.
00:03:14No, sir, Dr Chapman didn't stab him. His daughter did.
00:03:18Yes, that's what I meant.
00:03:20It's not what you said, Mr Hurst.
00:03:22Perhaps I should try again, my Lord.
00:03:24Perhaps you should.
00:03:25Inspector, the first information that you obtained that Mr Selzy had been attacked came
00:03:30from Dr Chapman.
00:03:31Yes, sir.
00:03:32I'd like you to describe the manner of the various members of the Selzy family that evening
00:03:36when you interviewed them. Mr Selzy, for instance.
00:03:40He was clearly in a great deal of pain and agitated.
00:03:44Did he inquire about other members of his family?
00:03:46Yes, he did. He wanted to know if they were all right. He was concerned about them, particularly
00:03:50Jane Selzy. He wanted me to reassure her that he was fine and that there was nothing to
00:03:55worry about.
00:03:56Hardly the reaction of an enraged parent.
00:03:59Mr Hurst, I'd be obliged if you'd refrain from making comments to the jury. The officer's
00:04:03here to give factual evidence, not to speculate.
00:04:06My Lord.
00:04:07Inspector, what was the manner of Mrs Selzy on that evening?
00:04:10Efficient.
00:04:11It's an odd word. Will you elaborate?
00:04:14She had everything under control by the time I arrived at the house. The blood in the kitchen
00:04:19had been cleaned away. The knife used to attack Mr Selzy had been cleaned and put back in
00:04:24the knife drawer.
00:04:25Yes, she had, in fact, organised it.
00:04:26She had, in fact, seriously inhibited police investigation.
00:04:29She was not aware of that, of course.
00:04:31I don't know if she was aware of the implications before I arrived. I certainly made her aware
00:04:36of them when I questioned her.
00:04:37I put it to you that she was surprised and distressed when you and your men appeared
00:04:41at her front door.
00:04:42Not initially. She became distressed when she realised that there was every likelihood
00:04:47of her youngest daughter being charged, and that was later at the police station.
00:04:50Yes, now the eldest daughter, Paula, what was her demeanour at this time?
00:04:54Calm, sensible. She appeared more aware of the implications than any of the others.
00:04:59And my client, Jane Selzy?
00:05:01Hysterical, very emotional and very defiant.
00:05:05Hysterical. Understandable, surely, a mere two hours after she had accidentally stabbed
00:05:10her father. No further questions, Inspector.
00:05:12Inspector, these accidental stabbings that my learned friend refers to, there were three
00:05:19accidental stab wounds, were there not?
00:05:21I believe so, sir.
00:05:22Yes, and you also described the accused at the time as being very defiant. Now, in what
00:05:27way?
00:05:28Well, she told me that she did not care a damn what happened to her, that I could not
00:05:32frighten her. She was sorry for what she had done, but that I could rot in hell before
00:05:38she would help me drag her family's name before the public.
00:05:41Yes, and did you take possession of the knife that the mother and both daughters identified
00:05:46as the one used in the assault?
00:05:47Yes, it has already been produced.
00:05:49Yes, could the witness be shown Exhibit 7, please?
00:05:54Yes, it is a knife.
00:05:59And the nightdress the accused was wearing, Exhibit 8?
00:06:03Yes, that is the nightdress. Mrs. Selsey was about to wash it when we arrived at the house.
00:06:11I see. Preferring to wash her dirty linen in private, eh?
00:06:15Oh, really, my lord.
00:06:17I withdraw that remark, my lord. No further questions.
00:06:20And no further comments to the jury, Mr. Griffiths, from either side, my lord.
00:06:24My lord, do you have any further questions for this witness?
00:06:26Yes, I do. But, Mr. Griffiths, tell me, do you intend calling the mother and the elder daughter?
00:06:30Yes, I do.
00:06:33Inspector, what time did you see Mr. Selsey at Fulchester Hospital?
00:06:37At 11.45 p.m.
00:06:39And what time did you visit the Selsey home?
00:06:42Just before 1.30 in the morning.
00:06:44And all three women, the mother and two daughters, were at home?
00:06:47Yes, they were.
00:06:49Had any of them been to Fulchester Hospital?
00:06:51No, my lord. They had summoned an ambulance at 11.14 p.m.
00:06:55Apparently, they were waiting at home for news from the hospital.
00:06:59Waiting at home?
00:07:00Yes, my lord.
00:07:03All right, thank you, Inspector. You may go.
00:07:06I call Mr. James Selsey.
00:07:20How long have you worked in local government, Mr. Selsey?
00:07:24Just over 17 years.
00:07:26And on the night of the 8th of June, you were involved in an argument with your youngest daughter, Jane.
00:07:30Now, would you tell my lord and the jury the circumstances leading up to that argument?
00:07:36I'll try.
00:07:38It's not easy to discuss one's family in the present situation.
00:07:43No, I do realise that.
00:07:46Um, Mr. Selsey, I've no objection if you prefer to sit while giving your evidence.
00:07:51Oh, that's most kind of you, my lord, but I am fully recovered from the accident.
00:07:57Though I would appreciate a glass of water.
00:08:00Give him a glass of water.
00:08:16In your own time, Mr. Selsey.
00:08:22I suppose we're an old-fashioned family by today's standards.
00:08:29We're churchgoers.
00:08:31We don't go every Sunday, but we go fairly regularly.
00:08:36My wife and I have tried to instil in our daughters the same values and moralities that we ourselves respect.
00:08:45We're not liberal or trendy.
00:08:49As our daughters grew up, we tried to ensure that they read good literature, listened to good music, that sort of thing.
00:08:57That isn't to say that they couldn't read other books or listen to pop.
00:09:02We merely wished to keep a measure of control over them, give them some standards.
00:09:10Respect for teachers.
00:09:12Respect for law and order.
00:09:19We're a loving, caring family.
00:09:23I didn't wish this prosecution. It's not needed.
00:09:26It's so unnecessary.
00:09:28Mr. Selsey, I do realise how upsetting this whole experience must have been for you.
00:09:34You mentioned a moment or two ago that your family had great respect for law and order.
00:09:38Well, it is in fact that law and order that brings your daughter into the courtroom.
00:09:43Now, please, continue.
00:09:46Continue.
00:09:48Law and order.
00:09:51In my worst nightmares, I never dreamt that I'd be standing in a witness box giving evidence against my own daughter.
00:09:56In my worst nightmares, I never dreamt that I'd be standing in a witness box giving evidence against my own daughter.
00:10:04What shall I tell you?
00:10:11During the month or so prior to the accident, Jane had been coming home rather late.
00:10:17The odd half hour here, the odd hour there.
00:10:22Probably most parents wouldn't have worried.
00:10:24Most parents wouldn't have made a fuss.
00:10:27Perhaps we're over-anxious.
00:10:30But we did worry.
00:10:33I'm not blind.
00:10:35Or a fool.
00:10:37Drugs, drink and sex are the toys that many of this modern generation play with.
00:10:45Previously, Jane had always brought her friends home to meet us so that we could get to know them.
00:10:55Whoever she was seeing during this period never called for her, never telephoned.
00:11:01He or they were people kept from us, so we had no way to evaluate them.
00:11:09On the night of the accident, Jane was over two hours late and we were beside ourselves with worry.
00:11:19My eldest daughter, Paula, who was visiting us at the time, offered to go out and look for her, but we decided to sit and wait a while.
00:11:28Eventually, she came in.
00:11:32Eventually, she came in.
00:11:35She told us that she'd been sitting in a coffee bar and had just forgotten all about the time.
00:11:42As so often happens with parents, our fears and worries turned to relief and then to anger.
00:11:52I was particularly upset that she'd caused her mother so much distress.
00:11:57I spoke to her harshly, perhaps too harshly.
00:12:02She stormed into the kitchen to get herself a cup of tea or a sandwich, I think.
00:12:08I was angry that she'd left the sitting room whilst we were still talking.
00:12:15I followed her into the kitchen.
00:12:19She was as distressed as I was, I suppose.
00:12:23She began frantically waving a knife about and I tried to grab it from her and...
00:12:32Next thing, I was on the floor covered in blood.
00:12:36Now, prior to this moment, had you threatened her?
00:12:40In what way?
00:12:42Well, physically, had you hit her?
00:12:44Certainly not.
00:12:46Certainly not.
00:12:48I've always believed to resort to violence in the middle of an argument was to admit defeat.
00:12:54When was, in fact, the first time you ever did hit your daughter?
00:12:58Apart from a symbolic slap or two, when they were very, very young, we have never hit our children.
00:13:04So, on this particular evening, she would have no reason to be in fear of you.
00:13:09Fear? I love my children.
00:13:12And is that love reciprocated?
00:13:15Yes, it is.
00:13:16Could I be shown Exhibit 7, please?
00:13:21Yet, on the 8th of June, this loving daughter of yours stabbed you with this knife.
00:13:28I've already told you that that was an accident.
00:13:30Indeed you have, Mr Selsey, and I've noted every time you refer to the stabbing, you refer to it as an accident.
00:13:36Three positive, deliberate wounds, all accidents?
00:13:40Yes.
00:13:41And Dr Chapman testified that had one of these wounds been an inch either way, you would have died.
00:13:47Doubtless an accidental death.
00:13:50Yes, of course.
00:13:53You don't seriously believe that my daughter would have deliberately injured me, do you?
00:13:57That, Mr Selsey, is a question for the jury to determine.
00:14:02Now, tell me, how was she dressed?
00:14:07In her nightdress.
00:14:08Well, how was that?
00:14:10I beg your pardon?
00:14:11Well, you've just told this court of the confrontation.
00:14:13This family conference, when Jane eventually arrived home late.
00:14:17She'd been to some coffee bar in a nightdress.
00:14:20No, of course not.
00:14:21She came in the back way and went upstairs and got dressed, ready for bed.
00:14:24And then she came downstairs to get herself a snack.
00:14:28That was the first time that we knew that she'd actually come home.
00:14:32Are you shielding your daughter, Mr Selsey?
00:14:34That attack she made on you was quite deliberate.
00:14:36Out of anger, frustration, pique, call it what you will.
00:14:39She resented your criticism of her faultlessness.
00:14:42She objected to your questions.
00:14:44Rebelled against your parental discipline.
00:14:47And deliberately stabbed you three times.
00:14:50If you knew my daughter Jane as well as I do, you'd know that that was utter nonsense.
00:14:55What's happened to privacy in this country?
00:14:58An Englishman's home is his castle.
00:15:00This was a private argument.
00:15:03A family argument.
00:15:05If that damned doctor had just stitched me up and kept his nose out of my business,
00:15:09all this would have been long forgotten.
00:15:11Do you realize the damage that you're doing by this prosecution?
00:15:14Mr Selsey, Mr Griffiths is doing his duty as a crown prosecutor.
00:15:19And I'm attempting to do mine as a parent, my lord.
00:15:22Those stab wounds healed long ago.
00:15:26The damage that is being done in this courtroom to my entire family may never heal.
00:15:31I believe I've shown great tolerance to you.
00:15:33Evidently, far too much.
00:15:35This court is not concerned with the implications that may result for your family as a consequence of this trial.
00:15:40Now, you've talked rather grandly about respecting law and order.
00:15:44Clearly, if you'd not been stabbed three times, this trial would not now be taking place.
00:15:48But these same laws that you value so highly govern your family just as much as they do the rest of us.
00:15:55I'm sorry, my lord. I just can't see how any of this is going to do any good.
00:16:01Evidently.
00:16:02Mr Griffiths, I'm obliged, my lord, but I have no further questions.
00:16:08I won't delay you long, Mr Selsey.
00:16:09My learned friend has covered most adequately virtually all of my questions.
00:16:14Now, we've learned that neither you nor your wife ever resorted to physical violence on your children.
00:16:19That is correct.
00:16:20Now, prior to the night you were stabbed, had Jane ever been violent toward you?
00:16:25No.
00:16:26My daughter... Both my daughters are gentle, caring and loving.
00:16:34She'd never been violent or threatened violence.
00:16:36There's another matter you may be able to help my lord and the jury upon.
00:16:39Now, we've heard testimony that after you went to Fulchester Hospital in the ambulance, your family remained at home.
00:16:45None accompanied you. None came, prior to the questioning by the police, to see you.
00:16:50Now, can you throw any light on that?
00:16:51That was my idea.
00:16:53My daughter was clearly upset and distraught, and I asked her sister and her mother to stay with her and comfort her.
00:17:03I would have driven myself to the hospital, only I was rather weak from loss of blood.
00:17:08That was why my wife called the ambulance.
00:17:11But your prime concern was that your daughter Jane should be comforted.
00:17:14Yes.
00:17:16She was dreadfully upset after the accident.
00:17:19Thank you very much, Mr Selsey.
00:17:21I have no further questions, my lord.
00:17:23My lord, I call Mrs Mary Selsey.
00:17:30There were similar teething troubles when our eldest daughter Paula was going through her adolescence.
00:17:36They were happily resolved.
00:17:38Now, by happily resolved, you mean when Paula went off to university and ceased living at home.
00:17:44That certainly helped.
00:17:46Coping for herself at Cambridge gave her an insight into the realities of life.
00:17:51And at the time she left home, what age would she be, Mrs Selsey?
00:17:54Eighteen.
00:17:55Some five years ago.
00:17:57Yes.
00:17:58She's lived away from home for the last five years.
00:18:00Yes, but she visits us frequently.
00:18:03Indeed, but for the last five years, your prime concern has been for your youngest daughter, Jane.
00:18:09I wouldn't call it my prime concern. I have many interests. I'm not obsessive about Jane's welfare.
00:18:15Mrs Selsey, I am anxious that my lord and the jury get an accurate picture of your domestic life.
00:18:21I can't see why. It seems highly irrelevant.
00:18:24Mrs Selsey, I'm the sole judge in the court of what is and is not relevant.
00:18:27Please answer the question.
00:18:29I object to this public inquiry into my family.
00:18:32I find the ordeal that we're all being subjected to quite disgusting.
00:18:35I understand, and I can even sympathize with your objections.
00:18:38But we're all gathered here to ascertain exactly what happened in your home on a particular night.
00:18:43Now, do you understand that?
00:18:45Yes, my lord.
00:18:47Now, in order to do that, Learned Counsel clearly feels that we should know something of your way of life,
00:18:52and I direct you to answer that question.
00:18:58Mrs Selsey, Counsel has told you that he is keen to establish an accurate picture of your domestic life,
00:19:03particularly on that night. Now, give him one.
00:19:07I breed dogs.
00:19:10I'm interested in gardening.
00:19:13I'm a member of the WRVS.
00:19:16I have coffee mornings to raise funds for Oxfam.
00:19:20I also read the Daily Telegraph, if that's of any help.
00:19:23My lord, I request permission to treat this witness as hostile.
00:19:26My lord, it's surely an extraordinary situation when my learned friend requests permission to treat his own witness as hostile.
00:19:31I feel I must object.
00:19:33I shall grant his request.
00:19:35I will not have witnesses in this or any other trial coming into the box under the delusion that they can behave and talk as they wish and mislead the jury.
00:19:41Now, parental loyalty is one thing, but contempt for the law is something else.
00:19:45Will you hear me further on this, my lord?
00:19:47Certainly.
00:19:48Clearly, both parents are distressed at the situation they find themselves in.
00:19:51It's no easy matter to give evidence against your own daughter.
00:19:54If I had not been fully aware of those aspects, I wouldn't have allowed either of them such full reign.
00:19:59But there comes a point, Mr. Hurst, when justice is in danger of being subverted.
00:20:03I think we've reached that point in this trial.
00:20:05Now, let's get on with it.
00:20:07I am obliged, my lord.
00:20:09Mrs. Selzy, after your husband was stabbed by your daughter, why did you not call the police?
00:20:14It wasn't a matter that concerned the police.
00:20:17Oh, come on, now.
00:20:19Your husband is stabbed not once, but three times by your youngest daughter,
00:20:25and you say this is not a matter for the police?
00:20:28Yes, I do.
00:20:30It was an accident.
00:20:32She didn't mean to hurt James, not for a moment.
00:20:35Mrs. Selzy, a person doesn't stab somebody in the chest accidentally,
00:20:39plunge the knife in, withdraw it, plunge it in again, withdraw it,
00:20:43plunge it yet again and withdraw it.
00:20:46I mean, we've heard a lot in this courtroom about what a loving, caring family you all are.
00:20:52Are these the actions I've just described of a loving daughter towards her father?
00:20:56I was there. You were not.
00:20:59She didn't intend to hurt him.
00:21:01They were the actions of an overexcited, distraught teenager.
00:21:06What about your own actions after the attack?
00:21:08Were they the actions of a distraught, overexcited person?
00:21:11What do you mean?
00:21:12Well, did you not clean the kitchen up?
00:21:14Wipe the knife clean, this knife, put it back in the drawer,
00:21:18then sit down quite calmly as if nothing had happened.
00:21:21I did what seemed best at the time.
00:21:24I didn't know the police were going to be called in.
00:21:27Why all this concern, because your daughter was late?
00:21:30We're that kind of parents. We care.
00:21:33An hour here, half an hour there.
00:21:35Surely such slight unpunctuality didn't merit your reaction.
00:21:40It is not uncommon for teenagers to come home late, is it?
00:21:44It is in my house.
00:21:46What did you think she was doing?
00:21:48What did you think she was up to?
00:21:50What do you mean?
00:21:52Well, did you think she was sleeping with boys?
00:21:55That's a disgusting suggestion.
00:21:57Had your husband accused her of sleeping with boys?
00:22:00Or being on the pill?
00:22:02I will not answer such an obscene question.
00:22:05Mrs Selsey, I direct you to answer the question.
00:22:08You can direct as much as you like.
00:22:10I'm not going to stand here and be insulted and humiliated by that man.
00:22:15Mrs Selsey, I consider that question relevant.
00:22:18To your knowledge, did your husband accuse your daughter of being on the pill?
00:22:22I told you I will not be a party to such an obscene dialogue.
00:22:26We are a Christian family.
00:22:28A good family.
00:22:34Members of the jury, there are certain matters which I wish to discuss with counsel,
00:22:38so I must ask you to retire to your room for a short time.
00:22:46Now, Mrs Selsey,
00:22:48I must warn you that continued refusal to answer counsel's questions
00:22:52might place you in contempt of court.
00:22:54I don't care.
00:22:57I am not going to answer that kind of question,
00:23:00and there's nothing that you can do to make me.
00:23:02Unfortunately for you, there is.
00:23:04Now, clearly you are in contempt of court,
00:23:06and unless you agree to answer Mr Griffith's questions,
00:23:09I will rule that you will go to prison,
00:23:11and you will remain there until you prove guilty.
00:23:14You will remain there until you purge your contempt,
00:23:16and that will only be done when you accept that I am the sole judge
00:23:20of what questions shall and shall not be answered by you.
00:23:23Contempt?
00:23:25I intend to treat those kind of questions with the contempt they deserve.
00:23:29Very well.
00:23:31Mr Hurst, Mr Griffiths,
00:23:33the witness will be held in a secure establishment overnight
00:23:37and remain there until she purges her contempt.
00:23:40We will adjourn for the day.
00:23:42Good night.
00:24:04The case of the Queen against Celsie
00:24:06will be resumed tomorrow in the Crown Court.
00:24:12The case you are about to see is a fictional one.
00:24:14The procedure, however, is that the defendant is acquitted.
00:24:17The court is adjourned.
00:24:43The characters are played by actors,
00:24:45but the jury is selected from members of the public.
00:24:48Jane Celsie is accused of stabbing her father
00:24:50three times in the course of a family quarrel.
00:24:53Yesterday, her mother, Mrs Celsie,
00:24:55was remanded in custody for contempt of court.
00:25:00Consequently, I'm advised that despite a night in Fortrester Prison,
00:25:03Mrs Celsie is continuing her refusal to answer the questions
00:25:06put to her late yesterday afternoon.
00:25:09My Lord, in view of the new instructions I've received this morning,
00:25:12I feel if the trial is to proceed,
00:25:15my next witness may render the answers I was seeking from Mrs Celsie redundant.
00:25:20Who is this witness?
00:25:22The eldest daughter, my Lord, Paula Celsie.
00:25:25If I might suggest we proceed without the assistance of the mother
00:25:28and that I may consider it at the end of the case for the prosecution.
00:25:32Yes, are there any objections, Mr Hurst, to this course of action?
00:25:35No, my Lord, if, of course, Mrs Celsie is at some stage recalled to the witness box,
00:25:38I reserve my right of cross-examination.
00:25:40Oh, yes, of course.
00:25:42Well, very well, let us have the jury back in and we'll continue then.
00:25:47Mrs Celsie, I understand you've made a further statement.
00:25:50Yes, that's right.
00:25:51Now, doubtless you are aware that your mother is at present in prison
00:25:54for refusing certain questions yesterday afternoon.
00:25:58I'm very aware. That's why I changed my statement.
00:26:01Well, let us make a beginning at the point
00:26:03at which your mother refused to answer yesterday.
00:26:06To your knowledge, does your sister use any form of contraception?
00:26:11Yes, she does. She's on the pill.
00:26:13Paula, you promised, you promised you wouldn't say anything!
00:26:16Young lady, young lady, I will brook no further interference with this trial.
00:26:20Sorry, my Lord.
00:26:21Very well.
00:26:23You'll have ample opportunity when you're called by your counsel to give evidence.
00:26:26Until that time, if you've anything to say, you say it to your solicitor.
00:26:30Do you know how long she's been using oral contraception?
00:26:32My Lord, really, I mean, how can this witness know the answer to that question?
00:26:35At best, her answer must be hearsay.
00:26:37Not at all, Mr. Hurst.
00:26:38I don't know what answer the witness intends giving.
00:26:41She may allege that your client told her or that she was present on such and such a date.
00:26:44Anyway, in the fullness of time, you'll have the opportunity of cross-examining.
00:26:47Subsequently, you'll have the opportunity of putting your client in the witness box
00:26:50to deny, correct or contradict anything this witness says.
00:26:53Continue, Mr. Griffiths.
00:26:55Thank you, my Lord.
00:26:56Miss Selsey, I was asking you if you knew how long your younger sister
00:26:59has been using oral contraception.
00:27:01Since she was 12 years of age, certainly before her 13th birthday.
00:27:04But surely at such a tender age, your family doctor would not have given her
00:27:07a prescription for contraceptives.
00:27:09He didn't have to. She got the pills from Mother.
00:27:12From your mother?
00:27:13That's right.
00:27:14Are you absolutely sure about this?
00:27:16I'm quite sure.
00:27:17Well, is this something your mother or sister told you?
00:27:20No, I was present when Mother gave them to her for the first time.
00:27:23But why would your mother put a girl not 13 years of age on the pill?
00:27:27I would have thought that was obvious. Her puberty had begun.
00:27:31Yes, but surely your mother didn't seriously think there was a risk
00:27:35that one so young would indulge in sexual relations.
00:27:39She didn't think it was a risk. She knew it was a certainty.
00:27:43That's an absolutely astonishing thing to say.
00:27:45I must remind you, young lady, you are under oath.
00:27:48I'm fully aware of that fact.
00:27:50I'm the first member of my family you've had in the witness box
00:27:53who's prepared to tell the truth.
00:27:55You're saying both your parents have lied in the witness box?
00:27:58Yes. The entire family agreed to come into this court and tell a pack of lies.
00:28:02Then why have you now decided to tell the truth?
00:28:05Why?
00:28:07Oh, lots of reasons, really.
00:28:09But mainly because my mother is now in a prison cell
00:28:12because she refused to tell the truth.
00:28:14I know Mum well enough.
00:28:16She'd rather rot in there than tell you the truth about our family.
00:28:19Well, if by telling her the truth I can get her released,
00:28:22I think that's a good enough reason to put an end to this charade.
00:28:25Are you telling this jury that your mother knew for a certainty
00:28:29that when your sister was under 13 years of age
00:28:31she was about to, or indeed actually was, indulging in sexual intercourse?
00:28:35I am.
00:28:37But how could your mother be so certain?
00:28:40Because my father had already been having sex with her for over a year.
00:28:50You may continue, Mr Griffiths.
00:28:53Thank you, my lord.
00:28:56Now, you are telling, my lord and the jury,
00:28:59that your father indulged in an incestuous relationship with your young sister
00:29:04from the time she was 12 years of age.
00:29:06I am.
00:29:08Of course, I'm referring to the first time they actually had sex.
00:29:11But several years prior to that you'd been doing everything you can
00:29:14short of actual sexual intercourse.
00:29:16These are very serious allegations you're making.
00:29:18How can you be absolutely certain that what you're telling this court is true?
00:29:22I'm quite certain.
00:29:24I think it's about time the lies stopped, don't you?
00:29:27I think it's about time the Celsie family faced reality.
00:29:32How can you be certain what you're telling us is the truth?
00:29:35I mean, if, for example, your sister told you these things
00:29:37they could have been merely childish fantasies.
00:29:40Because I was there, I was in that house.
00:29:43I was present when my mother first gave Jane contraceptive pills.
00:29:47I was there when he cuddled her, fondled her, kissed her.
00:29:50Damn it, I was there the first time he had sex with her.
00:29:52You were there? You were in the house?
00:29:54No, in the bed. He'd made love to me first.
00:29:58He'd had intercourse with you as well?
00:30:01Yes, that's what I said.
00:30:04And all this would have been prior to you going off to university?
00:30:10Yes, that's right.
00:30:12That's why my sister was being initiated, to take over.
00:30:14Was this the first time he'd had intercourse with you?
00:30:17No, it was the last time.
00:30:20The first time? That was on my 12th birthday.
00:30:23I remember it very well. I got a brand-new bicycle.
00:30:26For your birthday?
00:30:28No, because I'd been a good girl in bed with Daddy.
00:30:34Are you telling this court that between the ages of 12 and 18
00:30:39your father had an incestuous relationship with you?
00:30:43I am.
00:30:45Well, have you got any idea how many times this occurred over that period?
00:30:49I've no idea of the exact number of times.
00:30:53I tried to work it out recently.
00:30:55Hundreds of times. It would happen several times a week.
00:30:59If you don't mind me saying so, Miss Selsey,
00:31:02you do appear to be remarkably calm and detached
00:31:05about this extraordinary state of affairs.
00:31:07Do I?
00:31:09Well, for me, they were not extraordinary.
00:31:13It was only when I went to university that they appeared to be unusual.
00:31:17It was only when I really began to relate to people of my own age
00:31:20that I realised that what I had accepted as normal from my early childhood
00:31:24was not the norm in other homes.
00:31:27You must understand my father didn't suddenly attack me one day.
00:31:30He didn't suddenly whisk me off to bed and rape me.
00:31:34From my earliest childhood, he had cuddled and fondled me.
00:31:38What subsequently happened seemed at a time
00:31:41like a normal logical extension of that kissing and cuddling.
00:31:46Mummy would give me a little sweet before I went to bed each night
00:31:49and afterwards, Daddy would buy me big bags of real sweets.
00:31:54It was not the subject of major breakfast time discussions.
00:31:56It was all accepted as perfectly normal and proper.
00:32:01Daddy told me when I was very young,
00:32:04I can't remember exactly how old I was,
00:32:08but this was our special secret,
00:32:11something I must never tell anyone else about.
00:32:14He made me promise.
00:32:18I've kept that promise until now.
00:32:20I'm not condemning my father.
00:32:22I love him, but not in the way he loved me, of course,
00:32:26but I care for him.
00:32:29He didn't force me to do anything I didn't want to do.
00:32:34It all seemed so right.
00:32:38It made me feel very grown up when I was still a little girl
00:32:41to know that Daddy had desired me.
00:32:44I remember the day when I asked him if I was better in bed than Mum,
00:32:48and when he told me that I was and that he hardly ever slept with Mummy,
00:32:51I was thrilled.
00:32:54No-one ever told me it was wrong.
00:32:57Then, of course, no-one knew what we were doing except Dad and Mum,
00:33:00and they were both quite happy about it.
00:33:02We'd always been a very close-knit family,
00:33:04but somehow what Daddy and I were doing made us all that much closer.
00:33:09When we all realised that I would be leaving home to go to university,
00:33:13it became obvious that he intended to replace me with Jane,
00:33:16and that seemed all right too.
00:33:22Does it seem all right now?
00:33:25No, it doesn't.
00:33:27You must remember, however, I've had five years away from home,
00:33:30five years to find my feet and compare the standards of my environment
00:33:33with other people's standards.
00:33:35Yes, now, on the 8th of June, were you visiting your parents?
00:33:38Yes, I was at home.
00:33:40And were you there when he was stabbed three times?
00:33:42No, I was in bed.
00:33:44But we heard earlier that the whole family were gathered.
00:33:47It's not true. I was in bed and my mother was in bed.
00:33:50My father and sister were still up watching television.
00:33:53There was no-one else present when he was knifed.
00:33:55Well, why did you all persist in this story of a family argument
00:33:58caused by Jane's late homecoming,
00:34:01and that you all witnessed the accidental stabbings?
00:34:05I...
00:34:06Because our parents wanted us to.
00:34:10Because they didn't want the truth to come out,
00:34:12they didn't want a fuss, a scandal with the neighbours.
00:34:16Neighbours...
00:34:17What was the neighbours?
00:34:19I sometimes feel my whole childhood was controlled long-range by the neighbours.
00:34:24And just because of that, you all agreed to tell a tissue of lies?
00:34:29Don't moralise, Mr Griffith.
00:34:32You must remember Jane and I were brought up to honour our father and mother.
00:34:47So, this first story was concocted by the entire family to protect your father.
00:34:52Yes, that's right.
00:34:53Was that why the police were not contacted after the stabbing?
00:34:56Yes.
00:34:57Mum thought sure that the hospital would get in touch with the police anyway,
00:35:00but at least it gave her a little time to try and calm Jane down.
00:35:03If the police had appeared earlier, Jane would have probably blurted the whole thing out.
00:35:07Yes, now, by the whole thing,
00:35:09you mean the incestuous relationships that your father had been indulging in?
00:35:12Yes.
00:35:13She was hysterical, screaming, totally out of control.
00:35:15This was immediately after the stabbing?
00:35:17That's right.
00:35:18Whose idea was it to concoct the story that the police were told?
00:35:22My mother. She organised everything.
00:35:24Now, you've told my learned friend that between the ages of 12 and 18,
00:35:29your father regularly had sexual intercourse with you.
00:35:32Yes.
00:35:33Well, I realise this is something of an ordeal for you,
00:35:36but I feel I must ask you some personal questions.
00:35:39It's not an ordeal, Mr Hirst. It's a relief.
00:35:42Yes, I can understand that.
00:35:44Now, during those years, between the ages of 12 and 18,
00:35:48did you have any boyfriends?
00:35:50I had friends, of course.
00:35:51Now, I mean, did you have any regular boyfriends in the accepted teenage sense?
00:35:54No.
00:35:55None at all?
00:35:56No, none.
00:35:57Was this from personal choice?
00:35:58No, it was from my parents' choice.
00:35:59Well, did you have sexual intercourse with anyone other than your father during this time?
00:36:03Good Lord, no.
00:36:05If I had done, there'd have been hell to pay.
00:36:07Sex began and ended at home.
00:36:11Did you always submit happily to your father's advances?
00:36:14In the early years, I did,
00:36:16but as I began to get older, I did object from time to time.
00:36:21I gather even wives do that if they don't feel like it, don't they?
00:36:24Yes, yes, I gather they do.
00:36:27Well, Mummy certainly objected.
00:36:29She'd rather take one of her dogs for a walk than go to bed.
00:36:32In fact, that's what she usually did when I went to bed with Dad.
00:36:35I see.
00:36:36Were there ever any occasions when your father actually forced you?
00:36:39Not force.
00:36:41Well, bribe, cajole.
00:36:43Manipulated, but not force.
00:36:45Now, you tell my learned friend that when it became obvious
00:36:47that you intended to leave home and go to university,
00:36:50it became clear that your father intended to replace you with Jane.
00:36:53Yes.
00:36:55Was there another of these Celsie family conferences
00:36:57we've heard so much about?
00:36:59No, our family doesn't function like that.
00:37:02Things are only half said, hinted at.
00:37:06Jane just started getting the little presents, the extra attention.
00:37:10Now, you said you were present
00:37:11when your mother first gave Jane contraceptive pills.
00:37:14Yes.
00:37:16My mother has great difficulty in talking about things like
00:37:19the facts of life.
00:37:21She was having some trouble in convincing my sister
00:37:23that she should take the pill.
00:37:25Jane simply didn't understand the need.
00:37:27Mum called me in to explain.
00:37:29She was saying things to Jane like,
00:37:31it's good for you, it will help you.
00:37:34Jane thought it was some kind of medicine.
00:37:37I simply told her it was to make sure she didn't have babies.
00:37:40Was anything said about your father during this conversation?
00:37:43No, of course not.
00:37:45Those sort of things were never said in our home.
00:37:48Now, during your various visits home,
00:37:50after you'd begun your university course,
00:37:52did your father ever attempt to take you to bed again?
00:37:55Initially, he did.
00:37:57A hint or an oblique suggestion would be thrown out.
00:38:01But when I started locking my bedroom door and ignored things,
00:38:04he soon got the message.
00:38:06So, on the night of the 8th of June,
00:38:08you were in bed when your father was stabbed?
00:38:10Yes.
00:38:12I heard Jane screaming and I rushed downstairs.
00:38:15Mummy came out of her room and came down too.
00:38:17Dad was on the kitchen floor, covered in blood,
00:38:19and Jane was waving a knife around and screaming that she'd stabbed him.
00:38:22Did she say anything else?
00:38:24Nothing coherent. She was very hysterical.
00:38:27You ever seen her in a hysterical condition before?
00:38:30Not like that.
00:38:32She has a very excitable nature and inclines to the dramatic,
00:38:35but I'm sure she'll grow out of it.
00:38:37Thank you, Miss Selsie. I have no further questions.
00:38:42My Lord.
00:38:44Thank you, Mr Griffiths.
00:38:46Now, as I understand it,
00:38:48this story of an argument between your parents and your sister
00:38:51about her coming home late is a fabrication.
00:38:53Yes, My Lord.
00:38:55Has anything been subsequently said by any member of the family
00:38:58to indicate what exactly your father and sister
00:39:01were in fact arguing about that evening?
00:39:04Not to me.
00:39:08My Lord, I feel under the circumstances
00:39:11I should recall Mr Selsie to the witness box.
00:39:14Do you have any objections to that course of action, Mr Hurst?
00:39:17Provided I have the right to further cross-examination, none, My Lord.
00:39:21Mr Selsie.
00:39:25Mr Selsie, will you step into the witness box, please?
00:39:45I would remind you that you're still under oath,
00:39:48and I would advise you, Mr Selsie,
00:39:50that I will not countenance any further perjury. Do you understand?
00:39:53Yes, My Lord.
00:39:55I also advise you, Mr Selsie, that you need not answer any questions
00:39:58which tend to incriminate you.
00:40:00Mr Griffiths. Thank you, My Lord.
00:40:02Now, Mr Selsie, you have been in court
00:40:05throughout your eldest daughter's evidence.
00:40:08Yes, I've been here.
00:40:11I beg your pardon.
00:40:14Yes, I have been here.
00:40:17And what she told, My Lord, and the jury, is the truth.
00:40:22Yes, it is.
00:40:24All of it?
00:40:26Yes.
00:40:28There is none, none of it which you wish to contradict?
00:40:33No. None of it.
00:40:37Mr Selsie, you do realise what you're saying, don't you?
00:40:40Yes.
00:40:44Now, regarding the evening of the 8th of June,
00:40:47is it a fact that only you and the accused
00:40:50were present when you were stabbed?
00:40:54Yes.
00:40:56The others were in bed.
00:40:59What was the real reason for this argument
00:41:01between you and your youngest daughter?
00:41:04Well, did you hear the question?
00:41:09Yes, I heard it, My Lord.
00:41:15I wanted Jane to...
00:41:22...go to bed with me.
00:41:24She was in bed with me.
00:41:26Jane to...
00:41:31...go to bed with me.
00:41:33She refused.
00:41:34No, Daddy. No, Daddy. Please don't.
00:41:36Walter.
00:41:37Look, I warned you previously that any further disturbance
00:41:39would result in your being taken below.
00:41:41You've chosen to disregard that warning.
00:41:43Take her down.
00:41:44My Lord, surely under the circumstances,
00:41:46the evidence that's been given,
00:41:48the facts that have been laid before this court,
00:41:50is it not understandable that my client should show some distress?
00:41:53Distress, yes, but not contempt.
00:41:55Will you hear me further on this, My Lord?
00:41:57Certainly.
00:41:58Clearly, perjury has been committed in this trial.
00:42:01I'm particularly anxious that the accused hear all the evidence.
00:42:05Well, yes, that is a valid point.
00:42:09Very well, she may remain, but I'll have no more outbursts.
00:42:12I am deeply obliged, My Lord.
00:42:14Just sit quietly.
00:42:18You were telling the court that on the 8th of June
00:42:21you wanted to go to bed with your daughter, and she refused.
00:42:25Now, please continue.
00:42:29An argument developed.
00:42:32What, did you hit her?
00:42:35No.
00:42:36Did you threaten her?
00:42:38No.
00:42:39It was just an argument.
00:42:42What I said previously about her getting excited
00:42:45and waving a knife about is true.
00:42:48I was worried in case she might hurt herself.
00:42:52I grabbed for the knife,
00:42:55and she accidentally stabbed me.
00:42:59You still insist it was an accidental stabbing?
00:43:03Of course it was.
00:43:07She wouldn't deliberately hurt me.
00:43:11We love each other.
00:43:15No further questions, My Lord.
00:43:19You love each other.
00:43:21That's right.
00:43:22But this was no normal love of a father for his daughter, was it?
00:43:26It seemed normal to me.
00:43:28You debauched your own flesh and blood, not one of your daughters,
00:43:31but both of them, not a single aberration,
00:43:33but time and time again, year after year.
00:43:36You call that normal?
00:43:41I put it to you that on that evening,
00:43:44you desired this young girl's body.
00:43:46I've already told you.
00:43:48I wanted to take her to bed with me.
00:43:50Yes, indeed you have.
00:43:51And for once, she had the strength of character
00:43:53to refuse your obscene advances.
00:43:55For once, you were not going to use this young girl,
00:43:57your own daughter, as a plaything.
00:44:00I put it to you that you threatened her,
00:44:02and you frightened her,
00:44:03and you used physical violence on her in an attempt to get her into your bed.
00:44:06Far from attacking you, she was defending herself,
00:44:09keeping you away with that knife, wasn't she?
00:44:13I have never in my entire life
00:44:17used violence on either of my daughters.
00:44:20Oh, really?
00:44:21I suppose having sex with your 12-year-old daughter
00:44:24was your idea of gentle behaviour, was it?
00:44:28No further questions.
00:44:31You may leave the wooden spokes.
00:44:43My Lord, in the light of the evidence we have heard today,
00:44:46it may now be that Mrs Selzy may be ready to give evidence.
00:44:50Yes, that may be indeed the case.
00:44:56You see, I've never been particularly interested
00:45:02in the physical side of marriage.
00:45:06In the earlier years,
00:45:08that put rather a strain on our relationship.
00:45:12James began to talk of a divorce.
00:45:16But as far as I was concerned,
00:45:18that was out of the question.
00:45:20It was unthinkable.
00:45:25I certainly was not prepared to countenance
00:45:28my husband taking a mistress.
00:45:32I was brought up in a family
00:45:34to respect the sanctity of marriage.
00:45:38Standards are important to me.
00:45:46Also, there were the children to consider.
00:45:48I've seen what broken marriages can do to children.
00:45:54So, we made this alternative arrangement.
00:45:59It was a marriage of the heart.
00:46:01An alternative arrangement.
00:46:04It didn't do any harm.
00:46:06No one was hurt.
00:46:09And it kept the family together.
00:46:14I haven't come back into this witness box to justify what we did.
00:46:18I don't believe we have to justify it to anyone.
00:46:23It was our business.
00:46:25Our affair.
00:46:32I don't know exactly what happened
00:46:37when James was accidentally stabbed.
00:46:41As Paul has already told you, we were in our bedrooms at the time.
00:46:47I also don't know why the family couldn't have been left alone
00:46:52to live our lives as we chose.
00:46:57Mr. Hurst?
00:47:01I have no further questions, my lord.
00:47:04That, my lord, is the case for the prosecution.
00:47:10Right, Mr. Hurst. What was the submission you wished?
00:47:13My lord, I submit there is no case for answer.
00:47:16I do not believe the charge of wounding with intent
00:47:18would have been brought by the Crown
00:47:20if they had been in possession of these extraordinary facts,
00:47:23prior to the trial.
00:47:25Do you have any observations to make, Mr. Griffiths?
00:47:27Thank you, my lord.
00:47:28Whether the Crown would have proceeded with this charge
00:47:30if the facts had been known as a moot point, I don't know.
00:47:33It's a matter for your lordship.
00:47:35Well, I believe the case should proceed and go to the jury.
00:47:39As your lordship pleases.
00:47:41In view of the evidence we have heard, my lord,
00:47:43I request permission to have my client examined by a psychiatrist
00:47:46prior to calling evidence on her behalf.
00:47:48Do you have any objections to that, Mr. Griffiths?
00:47:50Provided that my learned friend does not object
00:47:52to the same psychiatrist examining the elder daughter on my behalf.
00:47:55None, my lord.
00:47:57I'm sure that if we can mutually agree on a psychiatrist,
00:48:00it will serve to expedite matters.
00:48:02I'm certainly in favour of that.
00:48:04Now, will someone go and tell that poor jury
00:48:06that we've adjourned for the day?
00:48:08All stand.
00:48:20The case of the Queen against Celsie will be concluded tomorrow
00:48:24when the jury reaches its verdict in the Crown Court.
00:48:51The case you're about to see is a fictional one.
00:48:54The procedure, however, is legally accurate.
00:48:57The characters are played by actors,
00:48:59but the jury is selected from members of the public.
00:49:02Jane Celsie is accused of stabbing her father three times,
00:49:06causing him grievous bodily harm during a family quarrel.
00:49:10Yesterday, it was revealed in court that Mr. Celsie
00:49:13had been having an incestuous relationship
00:49:16with both his daughters for some time.
00:49:20Dr. Rutherford, would you tell my lord and the jury your qualifications?
00:49:24I am a doctor of medicine, a master of science,
00:49:26a fellow of the Royal College of Physicians,
00:49:28a member of the Institute of Psychiatry,
00:49:30with a diploma in psychiatry.
00:49:32Thank you, doctor.
00:49:33Did you, yesterday afternoon, at the request of the defence,
00:49:36examine the accused Jane Elizabeth Celsie?
00:49:38Yes, I did.
00:49:39I'd like to say right away that any opinions that I express
00:49:42about the young woman must be qualified by the fact
00:49:45that this was my first examination of her.
00:49:47Yes, of course, doctor.
00:49:48What opinion, if any, did you form?
00:49:51That she has a psychologically abnormal attachment to her father,
00:49:55occasioned largely, if not totally, by the fact that her father
00:49:58has participated with her in an incestuous relationship
00:50:01dating back to her early childhood.
00:50:03I see.
00:50:04She also displays marked tendencies to an hysterical condition,
00:50:07which I would venture to suggest is a result of that incestuous relationship.
00:50:11In every other respect, she appeared to be perfectly healthy.
00:50:15Her intelligence quotient is well above average.
00:50:18She is a pleasant, lively young woman.
00:50:20However, her relationship with her father
00:50:22has seriously retarded her emotional growth.
00:50:27Would she know the difference between right and wrong, in the legal sense?
00:50:30With the exception of her attitude towards her relationship with her father,
00:50:33most certainly.
00:50:34Yes, what is her attitude towards this incestuous relationship?
00:50:37She considers it perfectly proper and normal.
00:50:40Doesn't that attitude surprise you?
00:50:42Not at all.
00:50:43Not at all.
00:50:44Bearing in mind her environment.
00:50:46A home where her mother not merely condoned,
00:50:48but actively encouraged her to have an incestuous relationship with her father,
00:50:52and that incestuous relationship began long before her father
00:50:56actually had sexual intercourse with her.
00:50:59A home where her elder sister had also, for many years,
00:51:02been participating in a similar relationship.
00:51:05It would be extraordinary, bearing in mind all these circumstances,
00:51:08if she were to consider what she was doing anything other than proper and normal.
00:51:12Well, is she, within the legal sense, sane?
00:51:15Oh, yes. Of course.
00:51:17But you do believe this incestuous relationship has damaged her?
00:51:21Oh, most certainly, and for the reasons I have already given.
00:51:24Yes, now, it's been said that incest is not the cause,
00:51:27but one symptom of a disrupted, disturbed family.
00:51:30You don't hold that view?
00:51:31No, I certainly do not.
00:51:33While it's true that in the case of the Selzy family,
00:51:35there was a marital discord before there was incest,
00:51:39it doesn't necessarily follow that the family was disturbed or disrupted
00:51:42prior to the incestuous relationships.
00:51:44Every marriage has some discord at some time.
00:51:47That doesn't hold that they are disturbed or disrupted in the medical sense,
00:51:51I'm sure you would agree.
00:51:53I wouldn't know.
00:51:54You clearly feel that Jane Selzy is disturbed.
00:51:58Indeed I do, but I must make it quite clear
00:52:00that some of this disturbance is directly caused by this trial.
00:52:04How much, it is difficult to say, after only one examination.
00:52:07Do you mean if there had been no trial, no arrest,
00:52:09no questioning by the police,
00:52:11she may well appear to all intents and purposes
00:52:13to be as normal as you or I?
00:52:15Now, well, I haven't had the pleasure of examining you, Mr. Huss,
00:52:18so I would hesitate to equate normality with your mental condition.
00:52:22As to my own normality, I would want to take a second opinion on that.
00:52:26It's possible my view might be rather subjective.
00:52:29Yes, well, let me put it this way, Doctor.
00:52:31If it had not been for this trial,
00:52:33is it possible that Jane may not have shown any psychological disturbance?
00:52:37No, no, I don't think so.
00:52:38It might have been less dramatically obvious,
00:52:40but I'm sure it would have been manifest.
00:52:42You're quite sure of that?
00:52:43Oh, yes, quite sure.
00:52:44You must remember that this young woman has been subject
00:52:46to sexual advances for many years
00:52:49from the one man she has every right to trust.
00:52:52Is supposed to trust.
00:52:54A reaction to such sexual advances can take many forms.
00:52:57Could you tell my Lord and the jury some of these forms?
00:53:01Fear, shame, confusion.
00:53:04Reactions in later life can be total amorality,
00:53:08or frigidity, insanity, alcoholism, suicide.
00:53:11There are so many forms of reaction.
00:53:13You mentioned insanity in the list of possible reactions.
00:53:16Now, do you have any personal case histories of such a reaction?
00:53:19Indeed I do.
00:53:21I'm not, of course, at liberty in this courtroom
00:53:23to quote from specific cases that I have dealt with.
00:53:26Perhaps it will suffice to quote the well-known example of Virginia Woolf.
00:53:30From the age of six, she was sexually molested by an adult half-brother.
00:53:34In adulthood, Virginia Woolf was frigid
00:53:37and was also subject to bouts of madness.
00:53:39What's your own professional view of incest?
00:53:41Oh, that's a very difficult question to answer.
00:53:43I'd be obliged if you'd try.
00:53:45Oh, now, please don't misunderstand me, Mr Hurst.
00:53:47I'm not being reluctant.
00:53:49It's just that the subject is very complex.
00:53:51There is no quick, one-line response,
00:53:53or at least for me there is not.
00:53:55On the one hand, some cases that I have dealt with
00:53:58have made me feel that incest was akin to baby-battering.
00:54:01Baby-battering.
00:54:03As the lay public would call it.
00:54:05On the other hand, I have sometimes been deeply saddened
00:54:08that there is in our society an incest taboo.
00:54:11Our society is deeply ignorant of the subject.
00:54:14Indeed, my own profession is equally ill-informed.
00:54:17To my own knowledge, no thorough classification of incest behaviour
00:54:20has ever been attempted.
00:54:22And I know of only one large-scale study of the incest taboo,
00:54:26and that was based on a grossly inaccurate premise.
00:54:28Yes, well, if we might return...
00:54:30What was that inaccurate premise, Doctor?
00:54:33That throughout the world, in every society,
00:54:36incest is taboo and is a grossly deviant act.
00:54:39That is not the case.
00:54:41It most certainly is not.
00:54:43Can you give me an example of a society that accepts incest?
00:54:46The Japanese, for example.
00:54:48In Japan, incest is not a crime.
00:54:50Research indicates that it is widely practised in that country.
00:54:55Unfortunately, we're not in Japan.
00:54:57Now, has your own work shown any particular tendencies or trends?
00:55:01Sorry, I don't understand the question.
00:55:03Well, have you, for example, found that incest is more likely to occur
00:55:07in overcrowded, working-class environments?
00:55:10I have found that there is no norm for this so-called abnormality.
00:55:14It occurs in slums, it occurs in the stockbroker belt,
00:55:17it cuts right through race, colour, creed...
00:55:19There's no single explanation. No, there is not.
00:55:21Now, if we might return to this example that brings you to this court,
00:55:25Jane Selsey. Now, did you find evidence from your examination of her
00:55:28that prior to the incident on June 8th,
00:55:30she'd begun to rebel, to protest the situation?
00:55:33Now, I understand young girls do assert their own values at this age.
00:55:37Indeed, they often do, and yes, I think that element is present in Jane.
00:55:41She's a growing woman.
00:55:43It would be very natural that under the influence of external factors,
00:55:46friends, her own peer group,
00:55:48that she would begin to assert her own individuality.
00:55:51Now, her father has testified that on the night in question,
00:55:54he wanted to take her to bed, she resisted, and an argument developed.
00:55:59Yes, so I understand, unfortunately,
00:56:01Jane showed great confusion about the actual circumstances.
00:56:04She also showed great guilt.
00:56:06Guilt, because she'd committed incest with her father?
00:56:08No, no, no. Guilt because she had been responsible, unwittingly,
00:56:12for this incest becoming public knowledge.
00:56:15She is very fearful of the consequences for her father.
00:56:18She still cares about his welfare?
00:56:20She loves him.
00:56:21Thank you very much, Dr Rutherford. No further questions.
00:56:24Now, Doctor, this teenage rebellion against an incestuous relationship,
00:56:29does it always take the form of plunging a knife into one's father?
00:56:33No, of course not.
00:56:34And would you agree that most girls who are subject to an incestuous relationship
00:56:38eventually assert their own values quite peacefully?
00:56:42Yes, I would agree with that.
00:56:44And I would put it to you that most cases of incest
00:56:46that come to our courts are merely the tip of the iceberg.
00:56:49Absolutely.
00:56:50About 300 cases a year become known to the police.
00:56:53Of that, about 150 result in actual prosecutions.
00:56:57But these figures do not accurately reflect
00:56:59the real level of incest in this country.
00:57:01What would your own estimation be?
00:57:03Well, as I've already indicated, it's a largely unresearched subject,
00:57:07but if I was forced to make an educated guess,
00:57:10based upon my own research and that of my colleagues,
00:57:13I would put a figure of 50,000 on it.
00:57:17What, 50,000 incestuous relationships at any one time?
00:57:20Yes, my lord, and that is a conservative estimate.
00:57:23Why, in your view, do so few end up in criminal proceedings?
00:57:26Many because they are simply not known officially,
00:57:29and many because social workers, psychiatrists, other professionals
00:57:34do not report them to the police.
00:57:36Thank you. Mr Griffiths?
00:57:39Now, clearly, many of these relationships are quite happily resolved.
00:57:42Yes, they are.
00:57:44And the relationship between Paula Selzy and her father,
00:57:47is that happily resolved?
00:57:49I believe it's well on the way, at least as far as Paula is concerned.
00:57:52I haven't had the opportunity of examining her father.
00:57:55Yes, indeed, but yesterday, at the request of the Crown,
00:57:57you did examine Paula.
00:57:59Yes, I did.
00:58:00And what were your conclusions?
00:58:02Well, one, as I've just indicated,
00:58:04is that she appears to be adjusting remarkably well.
00:58:06No permanent damage?
00:58:08One can never be sure, but I don't think so.
00:58:10Of course, she may experience problems in later life,
00:58:13in her relationships with other men, only time will tell.
00:58:16Like her sister, she does not regard that what happened
00:58:19between herself and her father was abnormal.
00:58:21And like her sister, having regard to her environment,
00:58:24that is to be expected.
00:58:26She is totally free of the incest taboo.
00:58:29Yes, now this argument that occurred between the accused and her father,
00:58:33which culminated in the stabbing,
00:58:35my learned friend has suggested to you
00:58:38that this was caused because she was trying to find her own sexual identity.
00:58:43She was rebelling against the continuation of the incestuous relationship.
00:58:48Now, it did seem to me, Doctor,
00:58:50you were rather guarded in accepting that view.
00:58:52Only Jane really knows why her father ended up with three stab wounds.
00:58:56Because of her confusion on this aspect,
00:58:58I am very reluctant to be more specific.
00:59:01You would prefer not to draw conclusions?
00:59:03That is so.
00:59:05Yes, and I put it to you that the relationship between the father and the accused
00:59:09is not really the sort that normally comes to our courts.
00:59:12I would agree with that entirely.
00:59:14There is no history of violence,
00:59:16no history of parental brutality,
00:59:18certainly not in a physical sense.
00:59:20Doctor Rutherford, thank you.
00:59:23My Lord.
00:59:24Oh, thank you, Mr. Hirst.
00:59:26Doctor, I have listened with great interest to your evidence,
00:59:29which I found highly illuminating.
00:59:31Now, you mentioned that the accused showed great confusion
00:59:34when discussing the actual incident which has caused her to be in the dock today.
00:59:37That is so, my Lord.
00:59:39Now, would you say that confusion was caused by the fact
00:59:42that she couldn't tell you exactly what had happened,
00:59:45or that she wouldn't tell you exactly what had happened?
00:59:48My Lord, I would very much like to know the answer to that question myself.
00:59:53Now, Jane, do you understand that you are on oath?
00:59:56Yes, I understand.
00:59:57Now, my Lord and the jury only want to hear the truth.
00:59:59You mustn't lie to protect your parents or anyone.
01:00:02Now, is that clear?
01:00:03Yes, not much point in lying now, is there?
01:00:05Precisely.
01:00:07Now, you've heard your sister testify that when you were 12 years of age,
01:00:11your father took you to bed and had sexual intercourse with you.
01:00:15Yes, he did.
01:00:16Now, you've heard your sister testify that when you were 12 years of age,
01:00:19your father took you to bed and had sexual intercourse with you.
01:00:22Is that true?
01:00:23Yes, that's true.
01:00:25Paula was in the same bed.
01:00:27Now, did you on that occasion see him have sex with your sister?
01:00:31Yes, I did.
01:00:33Now, we've heard that prior to that incident,
01:00:36your mother started to give you contraceptive pills.
01:00:39Yes.
01:00:41As Paula's already said, I didn't understand why I needed to take them.
01:00:45Mummy called Paula and then she explained to me.
01:00:49Prior to the time that your father first took you to bed,
01:00:52had he previously assaulted you in any way?
01:00:55Assaulted me?
01:00:56Sexually assaulted you.
01:00:58Look, you must understand.
01:01:00I don't regard the things we did as assaults and sexual intercourse.
01:01:04We made love.
01:01:06Yes, I see.
01:01:07Well, prior to the first time you fully made love,
01:01:11your sister has testified that he'd been doing everything with you
01:01:14short of sexual intercourse. Now, is that true?
01:01:16Yes, it is.
01:01:18Can you recall how old you were when all this began?
01:01:21No, I'm sorry, I can't.
01:01:24I can't remember a time when we didn't do things.
01:01:27Things? What things?
01:01:30Well, he would stroke me or caress me.
01:01:33That sort of thing.
01:01:36Can you recall your feelings on the first occasion
01:01:39when your father fully made love to you?
01:01:41I was very pleased. I knew it meant I was grown up.
01:01:44That you were grown up?
01:01:46Yes, that I'd be taking over from Paula,
01:01:48that I would be Daddy's best friend.
01:01:50His best friend? Is that what he called you?
01:01:52After I'd taken over from Paula, yes.
01:01:56You are just 17 years of age.
01:01:58Yes.
01:01:59For the last five years, your father has been making love to you.
01:02:03Well, for five years, we've been doing it properly.
01:02:06But as I said, I can't remember a time when we didn't do things.
01:02:09Do you have any boyfriends of your own age?
01:02:12No. I'd like to, but Dad doesn't approve.
01:02:14Have you talked to him about letting you go out with boys?
01:02:17Yes, dozens of times.
01:02:18What was his reason for objecting?
01:02:20He said I was too young.
01:02:22He said you were too young?
01:02:24That's right.
01:02:25He said that young boys couldn't be trusted,
01:02:27that I should wait until I was older.
01:02:29But you are 17 years of age.
01:02:30That's what I told Daddy, but it didn't make any difference.
01:02:32Did you discuss this particular problem with your mother?
01:02:35Yes, I did.
01:02:36What was her view?
01:02:38Daddy was right.
01:02:39She said I had all my life in front of me,
01:02:41but I could easily ruin it
01:02:42by going out with the wrong boy and getting involved.
01:02:44I told her I didn't want to get involved,
01:02:46just to go to dances and things like that.
01:02:48Now, what did you take her to mean by getting involved?
01:02:52Sleeping with boys.
01:02:53Making love to them.
01:02:55Silly, really.
01:02:57Because I only wanted to do that with Dad anyway.
01:03:03Did you tell her that?
01:03:05I tried to, but she wouldn't listen.
01:03:08She got rather upset when I mentioned Dad
01:03:10and stopped me saying any more.
01:03:11Was your mother ever there when your father took you to bed?
01:03:14You mean in the room?
01:03:15Yes.
01:03:16Good Lord, no.
01:03:18Well, was she ever in the house?
01:03:20Oh, yes.
01:03:21She'd be busy doing something or asleep in her own room.
01:03:24Other times, she'd be out walking her dogs.
01:03:26Now, when the police questioned you,
01:03:28Detective Inspector Wilkins testified that you said,
01:03:31Why don't you leave us alone? This is a family matter.
01:03:34Did you say that?
01:03:35Something like that.
01:03:36Who is previously told to say that by anyone?
01:03:39You mean Mummy?
01:03:40Or anyone?
01:03:41No, whatever I said, I personally felt.
01:03:43The statement that you made to the police about the argument,
01:03:45about coming in late and all the rest of it,
01:03:47that wasn't what you personally felt, was it?
01:03:49No.
01:03:50So why did you tell that story to the police?
01:03:52It was agreed upon before Dad went to the hospital.
01:03:54Who suggested it?
01:03:55My parents.
01:03:57Mainly my mother.
01:03:58Mainly your mother.
01:04:01Did your parents tell you why they wanted you to lie?
01:04:04They kept going on about the scandal and what the neighbours were saying.
01:04:06Yes, was she referring to the fact that your father had been stabbed
01:04:09or to the relationship you had with your father?
01:04:11Both.
01:04:13Mainly Dad and me.
01:04:14So, because of your parents, you lied to the police.
01:04:16Yes.
01:04:17You lied to the magistrate's court.
01:04:18Yes.
01:04:19To protect your father.
01:04:21To protect all the family.
01:04:23Although it didn't make any sense to me.
01:04:25What do you mean?
01:04:26Well, both Mum and Dad were so anxious
01:04:28that what Daddy and I do wasn't made public.
01:04:31All my life they both approved of what we were doing.
01:04:34It confused me.
01:04:36Yes, I'm sure it did.
01:04:38So, on the night your father was stabbed,
01:04:40you and he were alone at the time.
01:04:43Yes.
01:04:44The others had gone to bed.
01:04:47We were watching television.
01:04:49I'd gone into the kitchen to make some supper
01:04:51when Dad and I began to have an argument.
01:04:53Now, your father has previously testified
01:04:56that the argument occurred because he wanted to take you to bed
01:04:58and you refused.
01:05:00That's right.
01:05:01That wasn't what started the argument.
01:05:03What did?
01:05:04Paula.
01:05:06I thought you said you and your father were alone.
01:05:08We were.
01:05:09He began talking about Paula,
01:05:11saying how proud he was of her.
01:05:13It was the same every time she came home for a visit.
01:05:16All I heard was, Paula's such a fine young woman,
01:05:18Paula's such a bright, intelligent girl.
01:05:20It didn't seem fair.
01:05:21Why not?
01:05:22Because I'd taken over.
01:05:23I was supposed to be his best friend.
01:05:25The way he fussed over her when she was there,
01:05:27you'd have thought they were still having a love affair.
01:05:29And were they?
01:05:30They certainly were not.
01:05:31I'm his girlfriend.
01:05:32I'm the special one.
01:05:34So, on the evening of June the 8th,
01:05:36the argument with your father was provoked by his attitude towards your sister.
01:05:40Yes.
01:05:42I told him I resented all the attention he was giving her.
01:05:45Were you jealous of your sister?
01:05:46Yes, I was.
01:05:48I didn't see why she should come home whenever she felt like it
01:05:50and get all the attention.
01:05:51It wasn't fair.
01:05:52Did you tell him that on that particular evening?
01:05:54Yes, I did.
01:05:56I'd gone into the kitchen
01:05:59and he made some remark about how proud he was of Paula.
01:06:04It was the last straw.
01:06:07I felt very hurt.
01:06:11I told him he was being very cruel to me,
01:06:13that he didn't love me.
01:06:15He said I was being silly,
01:06:17that no one could replace me, not even Paula.
01:06:21I thought he was just saying it to calm me down
01:06:23and it made me even angrier.
01:06:27He called me a foolish little girl
01:06:30and said something about it being time I grew up.
01:06:34I told him if I was grown up enough to sleep with him, I was grown up.
01:06:39He put his arm around me and suggested we should go to bed.
01:06:42Together?
01:06:43Of course.
01:06:46But by now,
01:06:48I was so angry that I said no, I wouldn't.
01:06:54I'd never said no before.
01:06:59I remember I was waving a knife around.
01:07:03There were more words but I can't remember what was said.
01:07:08Then he was lying on the floor covered in blood and I was screaming.
01:07:11Jane, did you deliberately stab your father three times?
01:07:17Jane?
01:07:21I honestly don't know.
01:07:26Thank you, Jane.
01:07:28No further questions.
01:07:31I have no questions for this witness.
01:07:34I have no questions at all.
01:07:36Mr. Hurst.
01:07:38That, my lord, is the case for the defence.
01:07:42Ladies and gentlemen of the jury,
01:07:44you've heard much in this courtroom of the crime of incest,
01:07:47and that act is a crime and has been in this land since 1908.
01:07:51You also heard how the doctor estimated that at any one time
01:07:55there were at least 50,000 such relationships in this land.
01:07:59Incest is as old as man.
01:08:01Indeed, if we are to believe the Bible,
01:08:04how after the flood did Noah's family people the earth?
01:08:08But by incest.
01:08:10Certainly, again in the Bible,
01:08:12the children of Adam must have indulged in incestuous relationships.
01:08:16Certainly Lot did with both his daughters.
01:08:19At one time, Egyptian royalty were compelled to marry close relations.
01:08:25Byron, Wordsworth, Bramwell, Bronte and Beardsley
01:08:29all allegedly indulged in incestuous relationships.
01:08:33But I don't recall any one of them receiving three stab wounds in the chest.
01:08:39I say to you, incest as a contributing factor in this case is not relevant.
01:08:45Plainly, the accused did stab her father three times.
01:08:49And the Crown submits to you that that attack was intentional.
01:08:53And I ask you to find the accused, Jane Selzy, guilty as charged.
01:09:00But I say to you that you cannot rule out incest as a contributing factor in this case.
01:09:04This young girl has been sexually abused and criminally assaulted virtually since infancy.
01:09:10My learned friend referred to the Bible. Let me do the same.
01:09:13In the early Christian Church, incest was a crime in a class of its own, beyond adultery and murder.
01:09:19St. Paul performed the first known excommunication from the Christian Church
01:09:23when he discovered one of the Corinthians had indulged in incest.
01:09:27In the Old Testament, there are clear instructions forbidding incest.
01:09:31My learned friend has cited literary figures who may have indulged in incest.
01:09:35Significantly, he did not cite Sophocles' Oedipus Rex,
01:09:38where the realization that they had indulged in incest caused the mother to commit suicide
01:09:43and the son to gouge his eyes out.
01:09:47Liberal bodies have argued for the abolition of incest as a crime.
01:09:51One of the arguments was, it's difficult in reality to harm oneself by having too much sex.
01:09:58Now, doubtless the National Council for Civil Liberties, the people who made that absurd remark,
01:10:02knew nothing of venereal disease, the pregnancies,
01:10:05the horrific long-term psychological damage that a victim of incest so frequently suffered.
01:10:11We do not know how Jane has been affected.
01:10:14Sane she may be, normal she is not.
01:10:17How can anyone seriously argue that a young girl growing up in a household
01:10:21as corrupt as the Celsius ever had real choice?
01:10:25Clearly, on that particular night, her father wanted to take her to bed,
01:10:29and clearly, on that particular night, for the first time, she resisted that suggestion.
01:10:36I put it to you that this young girl, perhaps without realizing it,
01:10:40was, for the first time, defending her honor.
01:10:46I ask you to find her not guilty.
01:10:49You have, therefore, three possible verdicts.
01:10:51That the accused is not guilty of wounding with intent to cause bodily harm,
01:10:56but is guilty of wounding without that intent.
01:10:58Secondly, that she is not guilty.
01:11:01And finally, that the accused is guilty as charged.
01:11:04Now, will you please retire. I'd like to have Foreman to speak for you and consider your verdict.
01:11:20Members of the jury, will your foreman please stand.
01:11:23Just answer the question, yes or no.
01:11:26Have you reached a verdict upon which you are all agreed?
01:11:28Yes.
01:11:29Do you find the defendant, Jane Selsey, guilty or not guilty of wounding with intent
01:11:33to commit grievous bodily harm?
01:11:35Not guilty of wounding with intent, but guilty of unlawful wounding.
01:11:42Mr. Hurst, will you take my assurance that a speech in mitigation is not necessary?
01:11:45As your lordship pleases.
01:11:47I propose to give you a conditional discharge, Miss Selsey,
01:11:50but I intend to make an order so that you will receive such medical attention as is advised.
01:11:54Now, do you undertake to comply with that order?
01:11:56Yes, my lord.
01:11:57Very well. Conditional discharge. You may leave the court.
01:11:59Does that mean I'm not going to prison?
01:12:01Yes, you may leave the court.
01:12:03Inspector Wilkins, you no doubt have a duty to perform towards Mr. and Mrs. Selsey.
01:12:08All stand.
01:12:17The Court is adjourned.
01:12:47The Court is adjourned.
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