00:00Muzyka
00:08My guest on the Europe Conversation is Filip Lazzarini,
00:12the Commissioner General of UNRWA,
00:14the UN Agency for Palestinian Refugees.
00:17He told me, as Israel deepens its offensive in the Gaza Strip,
00:22that he fears that Gaza may soon no longer be a land
00:26where Palestinians can live.
00:30Filip Lazzarini, thank you for joining us on the Europe Conversation.
00:35Now, I'd like to start with the situation in Gaza.
00:38We know that Israel has been blocking the entry of all humanitarian aid
00:43since the 2nd of March. That's 11 consecutive weeks now.
00:48Now, I know you're personally banned from entering Gaza,
00:51but you have colleagues there on the ground.
00:54From what they tell you, how would you describe the situation
00:58for people in Gaza as we speak?
01:01That's correct. We have 12,000 employees still in Gaza.
01:05What they describe is beyond imagination.
01:10In fact, as you said, there have been now a total siege imposed on Gaza
01:14since 11 weeks, which means nothing entered,
01:18which means that there is no food available anymore.
01:22Now, hunger is deepening.
01:25We heard last week from the nutrition expert
01:28that half a million people are living in catastrophic situations,
01:33and the rest of the population also might face famine
01:36if this siege continues,
01:39which means the daily life of the people in Gaza
01:41is to struggle to survive,
01:45to make sure that they are not killed by bombing,
01:48by disease, or now by hunger.
01:51Now, the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu
01:54has said that he will now let basic amounts of food enter,
02:00and that's while a new operation backed by the US and Israel
02:05is preparing to start distributing aid.
02:08Do you believe this restricted amount of supplies
02:11that will now go in will do anything to change
02:14the humanitarian situation you've just described?
02:16Well, first of all, it's a total outrage
02:20that we are confronted to a situation of starvation
02:23when it comes to Gaza.
02:24It's a completely fabricated one.
02:27It's man-made.
02:28Basically, we are in a situation where hunger and food
02:32is being weaponized for political and military purposes.
02:37Now, today we heard that some basic assistance will come in.
02:41We have to define what the basic is,
02:43because what is needed in Gaza is a massive,
02:46unhindered, uninterrupted assistance and supply
02:52to make sure that we are reversing the trend
02:54of the spreading hunger in the Gaza Strait.
02:58But the Israeli Prime Minister is saying
03:00that it has to block aid
03:02because Hamas and other militant groups
03:05are hijacking that aid, looting the aid,
03:08and even monetizing that aid.
03:10Do you think that's a legitimate concern?
03:14And do you think that the safeguards UNRWA
03:17had in place to prevent Hamas
03:19from accessing and diverting the aid
03:22were as strong as possible?
03:24First of all, nothing justifies
03:28that we use food or deprive an entire population
03:32of having access to food
03:34to the extent that we are starving the population
03:36for any purposes of any kind
03:39as a starting point.
03:41There is a basic right in any situation,
03:44in situation of crisis,
03:46and also a basic obligation
03:48to provide access
03:50and make sure that humanitarian assistance
03:52reaches the people.
03:53Now we hear about the accusation
03:57of diversion of food in Gaza.
04:01There is no UN agencies
04:03who have heard about any large-scale diversion.
04:07What we have seen at the beginning
04:09of the ceasefire,
04:10when there was not enough food
04:11in the Gaza Strait,
04:13there have been situations of looting
04:16where desperate people
04:18were just jumping on the trucks
04:21and taking the food.
04:22But we have never, ever been notified
04:25of any diversion.
04:27Now, Israel, with the backing of the US,
04:30has established a new plan
04:31which would use a charity
04:33called the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation
04:35as well as private firms
04:37in order to deliver aid to the people.
04:40But you've said that you cannot support this plan.
04:43Why is that?
04:44Well, the UN cannot support this plan
04:47because it's far from meeting
04:50without having any basic humanitarian principle,
04:53including humanity and impartiality.
04:57Today we are talking about four hubs
04:59in the Gaza Strip,
05:01forcing people to walk kilometers
05:04to have access to the hub
05:06and to carry on very heavy parcels
05:11back to the family.
05:12Which means, with a system like this one,
05:14only those close to the hub
05:17will have access to assistance.
05:19And secondly,
05:20the weakest, the most vulnerable
05:22of the female household
05:24will have absolutely no possibility
05:28to go there.
05:29You say you cannot support this plan,
05:31it's not impartial.
05:32Yet Israel says,
05:34or accuses UNRWA of not being impartial,
05:38of not being neutral.
05:40It says that UNRWA's operations in Gaza
05:42are inevitably compromised by Hamas,
05:45which governs there.
05:46It says proof of that
05:47is the fact that the agency fired
05:5019 employees suspected of taking part
05:53in the October 7th attacks on Israel.
05:58Can you accept that all of this
05:59makes it very difficult
06:01for Israel to trust UNRWA?
06:04There is a war of narrative,
06:06there is propaganda going on,
06:08there is also an objective
06:10to eliminate an organization like UNRWA,
06:13because by eliminating UNRWA,
06:16Israel also aims at stripping
06:18the refugee status of the Palestinians.
06:21Now, having said that,
06:22we are taking any allegation very seriously.
06:26The famous 19 names
06:28you are mentioning right now,
06:31there have been investigation,
06:33investigation have been non-conclusive,
06:35but we have taken action.
06:38Later on, there have been allegations
06:40of hundreds of names.
06:42Constantly the agency is asking
06:44for substantiated information
06:46we never receive.
06:48Hence, we are not in a possibility
06:51to follow up just on allegations
06:54being provided that way.
06:56Yet there is a 72-page document
06:59publicly available
07:00on the Israeli government's website.
07:02It says it contains abundant proof
07:05of how Hamas has infiltrated UNRWA.
07:09Are you saying that you are contesting
07:12all of that evidence
07:14that Israel says it has?
07:16I am not contesting everything.
07:20What I am saying is,
07:21number one,
07:22we are not operating
07:23in a no-risk environment,
07:25but we have a no-tolerance policy.
07:28Whenever there is an allegation
07:31that a staff might be part
07:34of the armed group of Hamas
07:36or the jihadists,
07:37we will act quickly and smoothly.
07:40But for that,
07:41we need collaboration,
07:43we need information.
07:46And over the last two years,
07:48I have repeatedly asked
07:50the government of Israel
07:52to share information
07:54with the UN
07:55and or with UNRWA
07:57so that we can
07:58undertake investigation.
08:00Until today,
08:02we have never received
08:03any substantiated information.
08:06Now, you mentioned
08:06there is a full-scale
08:08military operation underway.
08:10Euronews exclusively
08:12saw a plan for Gaza's future
08:14last week,
08:15which is being considered
08:17by the Israeli government.
08:18It suggests the IDF
08:20could take control
08:21of the whole of Gaza
08:22and force civilians
08:23into designated security zones.
08:26There are signs now
08:27that this plan is underway.
08:30How do you respond to this?
08:32Well, there are many plans
08:33that we have seen until now.
08:36Some of them are more dystopian
08:38than other ones.
08:40I do not know what it means
08:42to send people in secure zone.
08:45Until now, Gaza has proven
08:47that there is absolutely
08:49no safe place.
08:51Israel said last year
08:52that there is a safe
08:53humanitarian zone
08:54in the south of Gaza,
08:56but we have also seen
08:57that it has been regularly
08:59targeted, bombarded,
09:01and even people living on the tent
09:03have been killed.
09:04So what I see for the time being
09:07is a continuation
09:09of the destruction
09:11of the deaths and killing
09:14of the Palestinians in Gaza.
09:16and my fear
09:17is that we might reach a point
09:20where Gaza might not be a land
09:24anymore for Palestinians
09:25to live in.
09:27Do you believe Donald Trump
09:28when he says
09:29he can take care
09:30of the situation in Gaza?
09:32I do believe that President
09:36Donald Trump
09:36has the necessary influence
09:40to change the situation
09:42in Gaza
09:43and to make sure
09:44that the siege be lifted
09:46and that the population
09:47get access to the assistance
09:49it deserves.
09:51You've previously said
09:52that UNRWA is living
09:53its darkest hour.
09:55Today, is UNRWA still able
09:59to deliver for Palestinian refugees
10:01given all of these difficulties?
10:04Despite the fact
10:05that the agency
10:06is experiencing
10:07its darkest hours,
10:10our staff,
10:11despite the fact
10:12it is exhausted,
10:15it is anxious,
10:16and they are also struggling
10:17to stay alive,
10:20they are able to provide
10:21services to the community
10:23even today in Gaza.
10:24But under the current
10:25financing system,
10:28how long can UNRWA
10:29continue to operate
10:30as things stand right now?
10:31That's a very good question.
10:33I'm hoping that we will be able
10:35to stay afloat,
10:36to continue to provide
10:38our services
10:38to the communities.
10:40The shortfall today
10:42is more than $200 million
10:43to keep our education
10:46and primary health services
10:48across the region.
10:50It's a race against the clock,
10:51and I really hope
10:53I will not be pushed
10:55in a situation
10:56where I have to announce
10:58the suspension
10:59of our services.
11:01But that is something
11:01you've had to contemplate?
11:04This is something
11:05I unfortunately
11:06have to contemplate
11:08on a regular basis.
11:10What would be your message
11:11to those Western governments
11:12as we are seeing right now
11:14that are currently
11:14cutting back
11:16on humanitarian aid funding?
11:19Well, the main message is
11:20that do not compromise
11:22our ability
11:23to respond to crisis.
11:25I know that many countries
11:26are going through
11:27austerity budget,
11:29but cutting
11:30in international cooperation
11:32or humanitarian assistance
11:34is certainly not
11:36the area
11:37where countries
11:39should cut.
11:40I mean, for example,
11:41if we do not address
11:42the crisis,
11:43people will want
11:46to want to leave
11:47and most likely
11:48come here
11:49and then the cost
11:50will be much more expensive.
11:52Mr. Vattarini,
11:53thank you for your time.
11:54Thank you.
11:54Thank you.
11:56What?
11:56Thank you.
11:56Hello.
11:57Thank you.
11:58Thank you.
11:58Thank you.
11:59Thank you.
12:00Thank you.
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