- 8 months ago
Pakistan has said it will retaliate after Indian airstrikes killed 31 people last night and injured 46.
The Indian military said it hit nine sites in Pakistan and in Pakistan-controlled Kashmir which it said were 'terrorist camps' - Pakistan disputes that claim.
Soldiers exchanged artillery and gunfire along the frontier near Poonch and more than 15 people were killed on the Indian side of the line of control.
The Indian military said it hit nine sites in Pakistan and in Pakistan-controlled Kashmir which it said were 'terrorist camps' - Pakistan disputes that claim.
Soldiers exchanged artillery and gunfire along the frontier near Poonch and more than 15 people were killed on the Indian side of the line of control.
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00For two weeks, India had been promising retaliation for a deadly attack on Indian civilians.
00:07When it came overnight, it was the largest series of airstrikes carried out in decades.
00:12Three people killed here, in Muzaffarabad, in Pakistani-controlled Kashmir.
00:17India said it was targeting terror camps.
00:20They attacked innocent, unarmed civilians.
00:24There is no truth to their claims.
00:26There were no such activities here.
00:28We live here.
00:29We've never seen anything like that.
00:30They just did this to spread fear and assert their aggression.
00:35India says it hit nine terror-related targets, that it showed restraint by avoiding military
00:40and civilian sites.
00:41But Indian missiles struck deep into Pakistan itself, well beyond Pakistani-controlled Kashmir.
00:48This was Bahawalpur, where India said it hit a compound belonging to the militant group
00:52Jaish-e-Mohammed.
00:54Another destroyed mosque in Muridka, where India said it struck the headquarters of Lashkar-e-Mohamed,
00:59a Taiba, another group fighting Indian control in Kashmir.
01:02These actions were measured, non-escalatory, proportionate and responsible.
01:08They focused on dismantling the terrorist infrastructure and disabling terrorists likely to be sent across to India.
01:16But with burials taking place today, after the strikes in Pakistan's Punjab, the heartland of its powerful military, India has delivered a blow to which Pakistan is promising a commensurate response, at a time and of a means, it says, of its choosing.
01:36At the same time, it is already claiming a win, saying Pakistani planes shot down five Indian
01:42military jets inside their own airspace.
01:48The Pakistan Air Force was on full alert, and our jets did not cross the borders of Pakistan.
01:53As soon as the Indian planes released their payloads, suddenly our Air Force pilots swooped down on
01:58them and shot five of their planes, including three Rafale jets, and they fell in Indian-controlled Kashmir.
02:05The two armies also exchanged artillery fire across the line of control in Kashmir, as many
02:10as 13 Indian civilians reported killed, along with at least six people on the Pakistani side
02:16of the de facto border.
02:18This major escalation in a decades-long conflict, catalyzed by the gun attack last month that
02:24killed 25 Indians and one Nepali national at a beauty spot in Indian-administered Kashmir.
02:31India's right-wing nationalist Prime Minister, Narendra Modi, shown in muted images addressing
02:36his cabinet today.
02:37Here's the task, steering this nation through the most serious escalation in years with its
02:43rival nuclear power.
02:45Mirror images in Islamabad, Shabazz Sharif with his grim-faced national security team,
02:51both India and Pakistan, fielding international calls for restraint and de-escalation.
02:59Both sides also aware of the domestic demand for action and strength, protesters in Karachi
03:04today calling for retaliation against India.
03:07And across India, civil defence drills in preparation for a possible attack.
03:16The likelihood is that a further Pakistani response would be against Indian military targets.
03:22The task for both countries now, delicate calibration of blunt military might, enough for deterrence
03:28and national pride, stopping short of full-scale war, the region entering a period of genuine jeopardy.
03:35Well, earlier I spoke to Tuhin Sinha, spokesman for the BJP, that's Prime Minister Narendra Modi's party,
03:41and I asked what he thought India's strikes had achieved.
03:44Well, ideally, it was the responsibility of Pakistan to take the kind of action that we did.
03:53It's a shame. Pakistan today is a global embarrassment.
03:55The fact that we had to enter another country and act against terrorists who had been given a free run
04:01shows that Pakistan was complicit in encouraging these terror activities,
04:06and which is a point we have made, we have consistently been making to the entire world.
04:10But don't you think India needs to provide the evidence that the Pakistan government was complicit,
04:17which it hasn't provided yet in the last two weeks?
04:19It doesn't matter. From three decades, from the last three decades,
04:23this is not the only attack which has been sponsored by Pakistan.
04:272008, there was direct complicity. What did Pakistan do?
04:31Did Pakistan even try to, you know, address the issues we had raised?
04:34Yes, but do you think evidence needs to be provided?
04:36We have given umpteen dossiers to Pakistan.
04:40In fact, you know, between 2004 to 2008, there was a time when almost on an average,
04:46every 35, 40 days, there would be a big terror attack in India through bomb blasts.
04:51Every time we would provide them a dossier, they would not act on it.
04:54You know, you need to understand this is a different country.
04:57This is a new India. It would not tolerate terror activities across the border.
05:02And whether there is concrete evidence as of now or not of the particular attack in Pahalgam.
05:08Fact is that over the last three decades, Pakistan has not acted on the numerous occasions
05:14we provided them multiple dossiers with evidence.
05:17When do you think India will actually act on the Indus Water Treaty?
05:21When will it start trying to cut that water off?
05:25Well, you know, work on that has already begun.
05:27You know, there are four new hydropower, there are four new dams which have been commissioned,
05:32you know, to arrest the reflow of water to Pakistan.
05:36But these things are some, you know, I mean, we would not be providing every details on public platform,
05:41you know, because there has to be an element of surprise.
05:44There has to be an element of speculation in these activities.
05:47What are your allies saying?
05:48I mean, in the past, we would have seen the Americans urging restraints and the Brits as well.
05:54What are your allies saying to India about possible escalation here?
06:00We want partners at this point of time.
06:02We are not looking for preachers.
06:03The U.S. is with us for sure.
06:06You know, they may or may not act in a certain manner or may not put certain words in a message.
06:12But we know for a fact that U.S. is with us.
06:14They have a very firm anti-terror stand.
06:17And therefore, you know, Pakistan does not get the same support from Islamic countries,
06:21which it used to get at one point of time.
06:23But it does have support from China, doesn't it?
06:26Well, China has been restrained.
06:28I won't hide the fact that China, we don't have, there is a trust deficit between India and China.
06:34But again, China has been pretty restrained.
06:36China has not openly supported Pakistan.
06:38Toon Sinha, thank you very much indeed.
06:41Well, I'm joined now by Hina Rabbani Khar, a former Pakistani foreign affairs minister
06:45who pushed for closer ties with India.
06:48And if you were in government now, would you be arguing for retaliation or for de-escalation?
06:55God, if I could only contextualise what has happened in our region because of the impunity
07:01that has been provided to a belligerent, rogue, terrorist state that India has become.
07:05And this spokesperson, whatever his name was from BJP, and whatever he said about India is entirely true.
07:10India is not the same India, the India that was a democratic India in India, which was a secular India.
07:16This is the India of a man, Prime Minister Modi, who was denied entry into the United States,
07:23was not issued visa there because of his record of human rights, of human killing in Gujarat.
07:28So this is the India that we're talking about, where hyper-nationalism and electoral gains
07:34has allowed them, not once, back in 2019 and even before that.
07:38I think it all started when I first started calling the world's attention to India becoming a rogue state
07:43when they decided to do away the Security Council resolutions and re-annexed Kashmir,
07:49occupied Kashmir at will and saying now this is India's territory and no one could challenge them on that.
07:58But it was an attack on Indians that started this round of violence, wasn't it?
08:01Look, absolutely, let's start with that.
08:03And you know how many attacks there have been on Pakistanis in Balochistan,
08:07which we have evidence that we have shared with the UN, unlike India,
08:10which decide to say it has no need to share any evidence.
08:13As this spokesperson of that Hindutva party, which is dividing India,
08:18which is dividing the region and the world, to be honest,
08:21said to you in your own programme that they have no need to,
08:24because there's such impunity that they have no need to.
08:26All they have to do is make an accusation and then strike, go against international borders,
08:31forego international law, humanitarian law, go and attack civilians,
08:35because it feels it has the right to.
08:36So you sitting in the United Kingdom right now.
08:39But why has Pakistan allowed these groups to prosper in Pakistan?
08:44Why has it not taken action against them itself?
08:46You are making a supposition over here,
08:48and you are assuming that Pakistan has not taken action against terrorist groups.
08:51When we have lost both civilians and military at higher number than, frankly speaking,
08:55any other country to report to terrorist action and to try and protect our country from terrorists.
09:01We have repeatedly said to India that terrorism is a common problem.
09:05It's a regional problem. It's an international problem.
09:07We need to put forces together for sane elements to come together to be able to deal with rogue elements.
09:14But when the state decides to use whatever is at its disposal to become a rogue state,
09:19a state itself becomes a terrorist state,
09:22then where do you go other than the United Nations Security Council?
09:24So are even you now in favour of retaliation?
09:26I mean, you know, you carried out peace talks with India after the Mumbai attacks.
09:31Look, I call myself an indefatigable optimist in Pakistan, vis-à-vis India,
09:38because I looked at myself as a citizen of the region, a citizen of the world,
09:43and saw that entire poverty in the subcontinent,
09:47and everything that we had done was not to create circumstances of prosperity,
09:51but the other way around.
09:52We, when I was foreign minister, the Pakistan People's Party government decided to
09:56start trade negotiations with India to really move away,
10:00because I believed I was a generation which was post-1971,
10:04and there was no question of wars again.
10:06Right, but should Pakistan hit now?
10:07And then, unfortunately...
10:08I mean, let's come back to my very first question.
10:11Should they retaliate or should they step back?
10:15So, should Pakistan wait for India to make a next claim at will,
10:20to whichever parts of Pakistan, inside Pakistan's sovereign territory,
10:25to make claims, unsubstantiated claims,
10:31and claims that they feel they have no right or no responsibility to give evidence,
10:35not only to Pakistan, but even to the international community,
10:37because the BJP, Jay Shankar, and Prime Minister Modi
10:41cannot take responsibility for their internal security,
10:45which is a result of political engineering that they have done in Kashmir,
10:49in front of the world,
10:51if they cannot take responsibility,
10:53if they want to outsource all the security problems on Pakistan's name,
10:57and then attack at will,
11:00and kill civilians, women, children,
11:02send them to hospitals in large tens of numbers,
11:06which state would you recommend to lie quietly
11:09and wait for the next attack to come?
11:12By this beligerent nationalist Hindutua,
11:16India state terrorist...
11:19We must leave it there.
11:19Thank you very much for joining us.
11:20So, how has it all come to this?
11:23And is there any player on the global stage
11:25who can step in to encourage the two sides
11:28to move towards a peaceful resolution?
11:31India and Pakistan had only been independent for months
11:34when they fought their first war over the fate of Kashmir in 1947.
11:39Thousands died before a UN-brokered ceasefire
11:42left the majority Muslim region divided,
11:44with the promise of a vote to allow Kashmiris
11:47to have a say in their future.
11:48But that never happened.
11:50In the wake of a second war in 1965
11:52came the establishment of a de facto border
11:55known as the Line of Control,
11:57a heavily fortified stretch of military outposts.
12:01There have been several flare-ups since,
12:03with cross-border firing.
12:05And in 1999, an upsurge of fighting in the Cargill district
12:08lasting 10 weeks was brought to an end
12:11by US mediation between the now nuclear-armed nations.
12:14We're going to cover you on three!
12:17After the 9-11 attacks,
12:19the United States' relationship with Pakistan
12:21became vital to its war on terror.
12:24But America's withdrawal from Afghanistan
12:26saw it drop Pakistan as a strategic partner.
12:30Now America is much closer to India,
12:32seeing it as a vital partner in containing Chinese power in Asia.
12:36I think the other big shift in the region
12:38is that China and Pakistan have also moved much more close together.
12:42China has sold Pakistan very advanced military equipment.
12:46And although China isn't necessarily willing to protect Pakistan from attack,
12:51I think it is willing to give Pakistan diplomatic cover
12:54in places like the United Nations.
12:57Normally, the world would expect America to try to mediate again.
13:01But Donald Trump is not obviously engaged with the matter.
13:05Yesterday, he claimed the two countries,
13:06who've only existed since 1947,
13:09have been fighting for hundreds of years.
13:13Well, here with me is Alexander Evans,
13:15who served as deputy and acting high commissioner
13:17in both India and Pakistan.
13:19He's now a professor at the London School of Economics.
13:22Well, we've heard both sides, and pretty belligerent they are.
13:24Let's start with the initial claim.
13:26Could that first attack in Indian-administered Kashmir have happened
13:29without Pakistani complicity or knowledge?
13:34Could that attack have happened without the infrastructure
13:37that supports terrorist groups?
13:38Probably not.
13:40Do we know enough yet to know the precise details of attribution
13:43as to who was responsible and what the details were?
13:46Probably not yet.
13:47Do you think we'll get the evidence?
13:49We may.
13:50And I think different governments, India will have evidence,
13:53Pakistan will have evidence,
13:54other countries will have evidence.
13:56The question is what will be released publicly, I think,
13:59particularly in this battle for information
14:02that we're already seeing taking place.
14:03And we heard Pakistan's counterclaim
14:05that India supports Balochistan militants in Pakistan.
14:10Is that likely also to be true?
14:12I think what you get is allegations on both sides.
14:15The challenge here is discerning what is accurate from what is not.
14:19What we do know is that a large group of tourists
14:21were gunned down in Kashmir,
14:23and that has triggered the most serious crisis
14:26between India and Pakistan that we've seen for,
14:29I would argue, well over a decade.
14:31Right.
14:31Is there any external player that's relevant here,
14:34or is this a bilateral question
14:36that they need to work out themselves?
14:38The ultimate decisions, I think,
14:39will be made in Islamabad and Delhi.
14:41These are two sovereign nations, they're proud nations,
14:44and they'll make decisions that they see
14:45in their own national interests.
14:47The interesting question is how much Islamabad may listen to Beijing,
14:52given the proximity of Pakistan and China.
14:55And China has played a discreet and quiet role in crises past.
15:00But what you're seeing is a chorus of different states engaged,
15:04encouraging de-escalation,
15:06but not necessarily condemning India's choice to take military action.
15:10And what would China's position likely be?
15:13Because China is also in dispute with India over a part of Kashmir.
15:18My sense is that China's risk appetite
15:20in terms of India-Pakistan relations
15:22is not that different to the risk appetite in Washington
15:24or London or Paris, or indeed in Riyadh.
15:28Most other countries don't want to see India and Pakistan go to war.
15:32I think it can be argued that India and Pakistan's populations
15:35and governments don't want to go to war.
15:37But this crisis is anchored on a terrorist incident
15:41and a policy by India that has been in place for some time
15:44that said that there would be attacks or a response
15:48if incidents were at a suitable scale.
15:50And why do you think we're not hearing more vocal exhortation
15:54in Washington and London to step back?
15:57I mean, you know, it was only yesterday
15:58that they were trumpeting a new trade deal with India.
16:01It's likely that the British government may have had some notice
16:04that this was going to happen.
16:05But there's been no criticism, you know,
16:08no real very vocal sort of stop.
16:11Well, look, there's an old-fashioned view
16:12that a lot of diplomacy is best done behind the scenes
16:15rather than by megaphone.
16:17But I think the key thing here is that the choice
16:19is India and Pakistan's to make
16:21to find an off-ramp from this crisis.
16:24And we're still in the midst of it.
16:26It's not clear yet when and whether Pakistan will respond
16:29or whether Pakistan feels that the claimed response...
16:34Of shooting down...
16:34They've made claims, as yet I think unverified,
16:37about shooting down planes will suffice.
16:40Alexander Evans, thank you very much indeed.
Be the first to comment