- 9 months ago
In this edition, we hear how the EU is trying to go green but stay competitive and tell you who the most corrupt countries in Europe are.
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00Hello there and welcome to Brussels My Love, Euronews' weekly talk show about all there
00:18is to like and dislike about EU politics and policies. I'm Maeve McMahon. Thanks for tuning
00:23in. Coming up this week, one month into a new
00:27US administration that has warned Brussels to quote, deregulate or die trying, the EU
00:33Commission President has a plan up her sleeve. As part of a simplification drive set out
00:38in its 2025 work programme, Ursula von der Leyen is soon to present the so-called Omnibus
00:44Package, the first part of a bonfire of red tape for companies doing business here. Set
00:49to go up in smoke, piles of environmental legislation that took years of often heated
00:54debate to put in place. And it's a dream for President Trump, but a nightmare for Brussels.
01:02Washington is making good on promises to impose hefty tariffs on all US trading partners that
01:07come into play as early as April. The EU is one of America's largest economic partners
01:12with more than 1.5 trillion euros at stake. So as you can imagine, we are nervous. European
01:18wine and whisky producers and car makers, among those whose fate could now be dependent
01:23on a rather unpredictable US president. A warm welcome to our panel this weekend. Ben Butters,
01:29Chief Executive Officer at Eurochamp. Chloe Michalakjak, a climate activist. And Corey Bennett,
01:36Energy and Climate Editor for Politico Europe. Thank you so much for joining us. But as always,
01:41before we hear from you, let's just hear exactly what the Brussels bubble was talking about this week.
01:45Make Europe competitive again. The mantra Ursula von der Leyen has adopted to make the European
01:54economy more attractive. How? By following a lightning fast deregulation drive that has
02:02left professional Brussels watchers dizzy. The buzzword is simplification. EU rules are being
02:09slashed, reflecting a rapid shift in priorities away from the climate and toward a business-friendly
02:15environment. On the chopping block is much of the green policy that the EU Commission
02:22has implemented during von der Leyen's first term. According to observers, the executive is under
02:30pressure from right-wing governments and the prospect of more big countries abandoning the
02:35principles of the Green Deal like Germany and France. Is climate policy a thing of the past
02:43or is von der Leyen just playing to the gallery?
02:48So there you have it there on the chopping board, directives like the Corporate Sustainability
02:52Due Diligence, the Corporate Sustainability Reporting Directive and also the EU Taxonomy.
02:56I mean, these were kind of game-changing directives that were meant to make sure that
03:00companies put the planet and nature also in their minds when they're trying to make profit.
03:04Chloe, this is obviously something you're watching carefully. How does this make you feel to see the
03:08Commission roll back on progress? It's making me feel incredibly worried and incredibly angry. I
03:14mean, as you mentioned in the introduction, these laws took years of negotiations, of compromise to
03:19be adopted. And now we're basically telling the rest of the world that they don't matter that
03:23much, even though they're super, super important. And if you actually look at a recent analysis by
03:28the European Environmental Agency, we're nowhere on track, even if we implement everything that's
03:33in the Green Deal to reach our climate targets anyway. So we actually don't need less regulation.
03:38We need more. And I don't say this. I think the simplification narrative is a narrative because
03:44it's not about competitiveness. We are going to reopen these laws. This is what we're hearing
03:48coming from the Commission. We are going to actually reopen these laws to modify them in depth.
03:52It's not just simplification. And if I were a business, you know, and I was thinking about
03:57setting up in Europe, I wouldn't want to because they're changing their rules every six months. I
04:01mean, the legislative uncertainty is insane for companies. Well, that's a valid point. I mean,
04:05businesses do want certainty. They want consistency. But Chloe, they're saying that
04:09she would like more regulation. I mean, what's it like doing business in the EU?
04:14It's very difficult. It's a struggle for many businesses, particularly smaller businesses.
04:20A couple of weeks ago earlier this month, we had an entrepreneur from Hessen in Germany over. Her
04:26company is a metalworking company with 70 employees. She said she spends her whole time writing
04:32reports, completing reports, paperwork, and that many of her peers from other companies,
04:36she's the president of a local chamber. They're just shutting up shop. They can't deal with it
04:40anymore. These are small businesses ingrained in their local economy, part of the community.
04:46They're not the big faceless corporations that we often hear caricature. These are small companies
04:51that have been there for over 100 years, and they're struggling to deal with this.
04:55Corey, you've been following the intricacies of all these regulations. You've been four years
04:59here in Brussels as a reporter. What's been the reaction in this time to ditching all this
05:03regulation? Well, so I guess the question is, is it a narrative or is the commission telling the
05:08truth when it says it can actually reduce 25% of overall red tape, paperwork, et cetera,
05:14for larger companies, 35% for smaller companies without actually abandoning its larger targets?
05:19I mean, to be clear, the commission has not abandoned its goals for 2050. It has stood
05:25behind its goal to cut 90% of emissions by 2040, and it claims we can still get there,
05:30even with the tweaks that are going on with these laws. I think the problem is we don't
05:35know if that is actually true. And we've seen from the Spanish government, they've said this
05:40week they're against watering down requirements from multiple EU sustainable reporting rules,
05:44because of course companies have been getting ready for this moment. They've been spending
05:47the last couple of years speaking to lawyers, preparing, and then to get these kind of mixed
05:51signals from Brussels. On this point of certainty, consistency, you need clear messages coming out
05:56as well of the commission. Well, yeah, for sure. Businesses crave certainty. They want to plan,
06:01but not at any cost. If the certainty is detrimental to their business, it needs to
06:06be looked at again. I don't share this view that we're talking about a bonfire of regulations,
06:13reducing the regulations. The commission is committed to retaining these regulations.
06:17They're just looking at the reporting requirements, many of which overlap or even
06:21duplicate and contradict sometimes between different pieces of legislation. And why should
06:27businesses have to provide reporting that in many cases won't even be read? Have we been exaggerating
06:32them, the media? Is it our fault? Can I react to that? Because actually, this is what we're hearing
06:36a lot, is that it's going to affect small businesses and that there's doubling of requirements. And it's
06:40actually not true. So the due diligence, which is basically to hold companies responsible for
06:44what happens in the supply chain, if you already have a plan under the other regulation that's
06:49targeted, which is called the CSRD, which is basically reporting requirements, you don't need
06:53a new plan for the other due diligence regulation. And SMEs are not concerned. So only listed SMEs
07:00are concerned by the reporting regulation. So that's a very, very tiny portion of SMEs.
07:07And on the CSDDD, so the due diligence one, the threshold is so high that it only concerns 0.02%
07:13of European companies. So it's not, we're hearing that narrative that our baker at the end of the
07:19street is going to really struggle, you know, to fill all this paperwork. It's absolutely, they're
07:23not true. They're not concerned. We're hearing stories. It's not just a narrative. It's the
07:26reality. It's the reality. Because the larger companies are passing on the reporting burden
07:30to companies in their supply chain. But in the laws, they don't have to, they have to provide
07:33economic, but they have to provide economic support to the other companies that are in
07:38the supply chain. So that's a problem if they don't do it. But it's actually not the spirit of
07:42the law. The spirit of the law says to big companies, you need to support your partners
07:46in your supply chain. You need to have an approach that is based on risk. So that's not all your
07:49partners. It's only the riskiest one. But is that really the way to pursue the Green Deal, to
07:54oblige large companies to subsidise smaller companies to cover their reporting costs? We
07:58should be helping them to invest, to innovate, to grow. And if we all spend our time working
08:03at how we can comply with unnecessary reporting requirements, it's just distracting.
08:08So why is it unnecessary? It is necessary.
08:10Nobody's going to read it.
08:11You think in 2025, we could use AI, right, to help us out here,
08:14Corey? I mean, that's just another can of worms.
08:18But I do think the overwhelming political reality is whether you see it from your perspective or
08:22from your perspective, the Commission in this term wants to be perceived as listening to the
08:27concerns of business. If you look back at the Antwerp Declaration from 2024, when I think it
08:32was, you know, 73 business groups came together, had a list of things that they wanted, literally
08:37the first thing on that list was an omnibus simplification package. It wanted to be the
08:40first legislative proposal. That is what exactly they are getting. Ursula von der Leyen will then
08:45go meet them in Antwerp to talk about it. And let's be honest, the industry have been
08:49very loud with their complaints. The farmers have been very loud with their complaints.
08:53They've been on the streets. But where are the Friday for Future marches? You're gone.
08:56No, we're not gone. We're still there. We actually we scream. But decision makers want
09:01to listen less to us. That's for sure. That's a fact. And it's very problematic because,
09:05as I mentioned, we're not on track to meet our targets despite what everybody's claiming,
09:09despite what we're hearing, that the Commission still wants to uphold the Green Deal. It's not
09:14at all the case. We're seeing these regulations under the narrative of simplification. They're
09:18going to be reopened and change in depth. It's not about simplification. It's basically it's
09:23a full blown attack on the Green Deal that's led by conservatives, that's led by the far right.
09:27I mean, if you hear the far right, they've recently reached out to other groups to say,
09:31let's scrub the Green Deal altogether. And you mentioned the big businesses and the
09:35Antwerp declaration. I think it really begs the question is competitiveness for who? You know,
09:40are we really thinking about these big corporations that are asking for more simplification? Are we
09:45talking about small businesses that for most of them are not concerned? Or are we thinking about
09:49European citizens and our well-being and not just the pursuit of just economic growth for the sake
09:54of economic growth? Well, you mentioned the big corporations. And on that point, we wanted to get
09:58the view from big industry. So we had a chat with the Italian Chemical Federation, FederChemica.
10:03We can take a listen to Piercarlo Friggerio.
10:12Clearly, regulatory pressure and European environmental regulations are impacting
10:16industrial production. The decline in chemical industry output, which dropped by 10% across
10:23Europe in 2023, raises the risk of European de-industrialization, ultimately benefiting
10:29external competitors. Omnibus is a step in the right direction. Something the industry strongly
10:36hopes for is implementing concrete measures to enhance competitiveness. What the sector cannot
10:41afford is to wait too long. We have already surpassed the 2030 target. So that's Piercarlo
10:50Friggerio there stating that the sector cannot afford to wait for long. And it's no secret, Chloe,
10:54that the European industry is in decline. Is it something you're worried about? You know what else
10:58can't wait, can't afford to wait too long? Climate, biodiversity, nature, people's health. All of these
11:04things cannot afford to wait too long. And we've already waited too long. So I hear the need for
11:09simplification. I don't think anyone can be against simplification. No one wants to spend the entire
11:13day just filling paperwork for the sake of filling paperwork. But once again, that's not what we're
11:17seeing here. We're seeing here this used as an excuse to basically attack the Green Deal, all of
11:23these regulations that made Europe proud. And that made us proud, actually. We were proud of these
11:28regulations, even if they weren't enough. So seeing this really roll back because we want to do a race
11:34to the bottom with the US or China, which we will never win, by the way, because we're not as strong
11:39economically as these countries. Let's keep being proud of what makes us different. And that is a
11:44strong regulatory framework that protects or aims at least to protect nature and the environment.
11:50Ben, your thoughts on the Green Deal and how your companies feel. I'm sure they want to be
11:53sustainable, too. That's what consumers are asking for as well. Absolutely. And that sense of pride
11:59in being fastest mover on the regulatory regime is not shared across the business community.
12:04We want to be proud of an economy that is innovative, that enables people and companies
12:10to invest in the future, to invest in clean tech. And the more that we regulate, the more
12:15reporting requirements we impose on business, the less likely that is. And it doesn't help
12:20the climate response either, because companies move outside Europe into other economies which
12:24have different requirements. And Europe, which is responsible for somewhere between seven to nine
12:28percent of CO2 emissions, loses, it deindustrialises. And that is problematic, not just in terms of the
12:35global climate response, but also in terms of our competitiveness. And that's the point that
12:38Mario Draghi made, Enrico Letta, in his big massive report about how we need to be more competitive
12:45by leaving perhaps the Green Deal behind and creating this new green industrial deal.
12:51I think the idea is to embed climate policies within industrial policies, right? That is the
12:56point of the Clean Industrial Deal, at least as it is being pitched by Ursula von der Leyen.
13:02Whether you can actually marry those two things, I think, is an open question. There appear to be a
13:06lot of competing impulses. They're claiming that they can kind of help everyone when what people
13:11want out of the Clean Industrial Deal are at times mutually exclusive. So they can't necessarily
13:15please everyone with what they're trying to do. But as we're both touching on here, there is a
13:20broader geopolitical climate at play here, which is the return of Donald Trump to the White House
13:24in the U.S., and the fact that global climate diplomacy has gone into a deep freeze, and that
13:29a lot of the international pledges that have been made now have huge question marks hanging over
13:35them. And I do think the EU feels under pressure as essentially the last pillar standing in this
13:40global climate diplomacy. And it's clear that the Commission President Ursula von der Leyen,
13:44under a lot of political pressure from her political group, also from the far right,
13:47as you mentioned. We saw Jordan Bardella, a very well-known French politician this week,
13:53putting out a statement on the Green Deal, saying that, you know, we should join forces to propose
13:58the suspension of the Green Deal in response to very attractive measures for the economy and for
14:04businesses that Donald Trump is going to introduce in the United States. It seems like it's kind of
14:08cool now to not care about the environment, Chloe. Yeah, and I think, I mean, this statement is
14:13exactly what I was saying. It really feels like it's basically an excuse to attack the Green Deal
14:18by the far right. And they're really holding their hands to the EPP, being like, hey, let's work
14:22together to scrap the Green Deal. And this is really, really problematic. But I think we also
14:28need to remind people and remind viewers that this is not what every businesses want. There's been
14:33many calls from different businesses, larger and smaller, to not basically deregulate these
14:39rules that we're talking about here. There's been calls by investors worth 6 trillion euros. I mean,
14:44for me, it's always a little bit difficult to imagine what 6 trillion, but it's massive. It's
14:48actually dollars. And even inside the European Parliament, there's two commissioners, including
14:52Vice President Ribeiro, which is the number two, and Commissioner Hoekstra, who have made statements
14:57even a few weeks ago, and they were saying we shouldn't deregulate. So I think it's important
15:03to remind that the narrative isn't just, yes, let's deregulate, let's cut all of these rules,
15:08these environmental rules. There's many people who are saying exactly the contrary.
15:12The shift in rhetoric from the EPP, while they have said in response to the statement that you
15:16have from Jordan Bardella that they will not form any sort of formal alliance with him to go after
15:21the Green Deal, they do have members who are essentially aping far-right rhetoric on climate
15:27policy, on green policy, and that is emboldening the far right. So even if they are not actively
15:32or formally collaborating, certainly the EPP's rhetoric has moved towards the far right and risen
15:39their profile on this issue. And meanwhile, the socialists and the Greens have lost a lot of
15:42public support. So their voices, of course, are not as heard as later as they were before in the
15:47past. So how do you see us here finding the right way forward? Because we've heard from Chloe what's
15:53at stake. I mean, we've seen reports coming out every week from scientists about what is at stake,
15:58but how do we get there? We're encouraged by the way the Commission is moving with the
16:02simplification reality checks, the discussions that took place earlier this month, the forthcoming
16:09omnibus proposal on ESG, environmental social governance legislation, including some of the
16:16directives which have been discussed. But it has to go further than that in terms of tackling
16:21unnecessary, overlapping, obsolete reporting obligations. There was a study recently what
16:28the Directorate General for Environment within the European Commission requires. There are 41
16:34directives from this Department of the Commission which impose 110 different reporting requirements
16:39on businesses, and that's just from one Directorate General of the Commission. So we're going way
16:43beyond what's going to be in this omnibus simplification proposal in a couple of weeks.
16:48So we need to review carefully and consistently the reporting obligations on business to make
16:54sure that we're able to reach the policy objective in a manner that doesn't stop businesses from
16:59growing, from creating jobs, and from innovating. So what will you be looking out for this year?
17:04We've got the omnibus, we've got the competitive compass, we've got the 2025 working programme.
17:09I'm actually interested. So they've said that there will be at least five omnibus packages,
17:14and I'm very curious about that at least portion. I mean, this is just what we're going to see in
17:182025. And so I'm very curious what happens when we go beyond this kind of initial look at some
17:24of the reporting requirements and we move into more of a discussion around investment rules,
17:28around finance rules, and what direction the Commission wants to take there.
17:34I'm also very curious how the Clean Industrial Deal is presented. So we actually got a look at
17:41the Clean Industrial Deal, we got a look at a draft, and not a ton of surprises in there,
17:45but there are a number of what you would objectively call protectionist measures in
17:50there, right? Made in Europe quotas for public contracts. And the idea is both that that
17:55encourages industrialization and encourages people to buy climate-friendly products.
18:00That, I think, might run into some challenges. I think that will be a topic of controversy.
18:06It's a very change in – it's a paradigm shift a bit for the European Union.
18:12And I'm interested to see how that plays once it's formally out there.
18:15And you mentioned earlier, Corey, the Antwerp Declaration. We know that President Ursula
18:20von der Leyen will be in Antwerp next Friday. She'll be speaking to CEOs presenting all these
18:24ideas. Your thoughts, perhaps, on this Clean Industrial Deal?
18:27I think we're also curious to see what's in there, because we're not against
18:32reindustrialization, we're not against businesses doing good. I think it also begs the question of
18:36which businesses, right? I mean, which businesses are we supporting? And when Ursula von der Leyen
18:40goes to basically BASF's office, because it's important to remind people what's in Antwerp and
18:45why she's going there, she's going there because this is where BASF's office, one of the biggest
18:50chemical companies in the world that is making billions in profits every year, what kind of
18:54messages does that send? You know, is it I'm supporting, I'm here to defend the interests
18:58of big corporations, or am I here to defend the interests of European citizens? And just on the
19:03Clean Industrial Deal, I think if it's done well, it's a great opportunity, right? And I think we
19:09want to support this and the voices, the ambitious voices within the European Commission. I think
19:14we'll look at it carefully, because it can also be a strategy to, you know, do things slightly
19:19different way and maybe to keep promoting deregulation. And I think it also begs the
19:24question of where does the money come from? You know, how can we actually support industry that
19:29really want to transition and not the ones that are delaying it, but the ones that really want
19:33to change? Money is the key. Where does the money come from? And that's what Mario Draghi warned
19:36as well. And also remember, we're about to have budget conversations coming up.
19:39Pace yourself, pace yourself. Ben, your reaction to that? Well, the question of money is, of course,
19:44a fundamental one. And the amounts that Mario Draghi was talking about are vast. But the
19:49money comes from the economy, from a growing, thriving economy. So we need to make sure that
19:54the ingredients are in place to enable our company to grow. The economy is stagnated for the last
19:58year or two. Bankruptcies are going up. So we have a problem. And we're not going to tackle that
20:04problem by adding more and more layers of reporting. I actually agree with Chloe on the point
20:09about the optics of going to a large corporation. We would be delighted if President von der Leyen
20:16and her college would come and visit some of our businesses, some of the smaller businesses,
20:19which are also struggling, as I said, with reporting requirements. The door is always open.
20:26Very diplomatic. Well, maybe she's watching now. I know she's in Barbados this week,
20:31so she's probably rather busy. Someone's got to do it.
20:35But as you say, the door is always open. Yeah. And I think there's a real feeling in this town
20:39that it's time to come out of the Berlimont, or the ivory cage, as many call, and the headquarters
20:44of the European Commission here in Brussels, and to go down to the people and listen to the
20:47main concerns of people. And of course, as well, of small to medium businesses that,
20:51as we always say, are the backbone of our economy here in the EU.
20:55Although perhaps ironically, it does seem increasingly that decision making is being
20:59centralised within the Commission, right? Even in the production of the Clean Industrial Deal,
21:03there was a period where we felt like it was probably literally just von der Leyen herself,
21:07and maybe a couple aides around her who had seen it, who were developing it. And it's only very
21:11recently that it is now going to a broader circle. And even on that, on the omnibus package process,
21:16there was supposed to be a consultation. And I just want to explain what this consultation
21:20looked like. It was basically two days. And on the second day, there was one hour per file. So
21:25one hour for this due diligence regulation, one on reporting, one on taxonomy. These are files
21:29that took years to negotiate. One hour per file. One hour is not enough. And on that point,
21:33we'll have to conclude this conversation. For more information, do check out Euronews.com.
21:38But stay with us, because after the break, we'll be telling you how the US President
21:42Donald Trump's favourite word tariff is causing a major headache for the EU Commission's Trade
21:47Department, which of course trades on behalf of the whole EU. See you soon.
21:59Welcome back to Brussels, my love, Euronews' weekly politics show. I'm Maeve McMahon. And with
22:05the help of this weekend's panel, we're just taking a look back at the news of the week. And
22:09one we're taking a look at very carefully is this, the EU's Trade Commissioner, Maros
22:14Sefcovic, jetting off to Washington DC to stave off a full-blown trade war with one of our closest
22:21trading blocs, the United States. The Slovakian veteran politician told the US administration
22:26that the Europeans are open to talk and he would do anything to resolve any issue at stake instead
22:32of having to go through what he called awful, awful pain. I mean, this is pretty dramatic,
22:37right? I mean, this is a major, major crisis. What's at stake here, Ben? A great deal is at
22:43stake. This is the transatlantic trade relationship is hugely important to the global economy and to
22:50Europe's economy. So a lot is at stake. We also feel it's based on a misconception that there
22:56is a trade imbalance. When you look at the figures for both goods and services, it's pretty much
23:01even, in fact. And to us, that's what trade should be about. You focus on your competitive
23:08advantages and there's complementarity. So the EU exports goods and the US exports services.
23:15That's how the global economy should work. So we're very worried about all these discussions
23:19about tariffs being introduced. Even though the Commission, Corey, has said it's been preparing
23:23for this eventuality for over a year now, they knew exactly what inevitably could come about.
23:28We saw Marat Sefcovic saying he could reduce the surplus in goods and services with the US,
23:33for example, which reached 50 billion last year. He could reduce as well the tariffs on cars,
23:38which, of course, Donald Trump despises. Will we be able to get through this tricky time?
23:44The problem is you never know with Donald Trump. The thing to do with him is you have to take him
23:48seriously, but not literally. And oftentimes in a situation like this, especially with a trade
23:52negotiation, his history, and I used to work in Washington, D.C. I used to be a White House
23:56editor, the point is not necessarily imposing tariffs with him. The point is brinksmanship.
24:02The point is the negotiation. The point is seeming like he has come away with some type of win.
24:08Now, the problem is it's not always clear exactly what you can give him to make it seem,
24:13make him feel like he can claim victory. Obviously, the EU has prepared a lot of goodies.
24:18They're keen to buy more American LNG, for instance. You talked about the car tariff.
24:23But they can't necessarily solve everything or speak to every issue that gets on his mind.
24:28The VAT, for instance, he's obsessed with the concept of the value-added tax being a tariff
24:33when, as I understand it, I'm not an economic expert. Ben, you would know better than I,
24:37but it's not a tariff. It's the same for everyone. It doesn't matter whether you're from
24:41South Korea or from Europe. Everybody has to pay VAT. It's a reciprocal arrangement.
24:47Yeah, again, it's a pain. But you can't convince Donald Trump otherwise necessarily.
24:52So that's the wild card in this situation. Chloe, your thoughts?
24:56Yeah, I think it's just another proof that Donald Trump works on threats and on terror,
25:01even for their so-called partners. And I think it's time that the EU really reacts swiftly,
25:06strongly, and as a bloc, because we can't keep shaking in our boots, like the Americans say.
25:11Every four years, every time the president changes. And I just want to point something
25:16that I've been hearing quite a lot in Brussels, is this idea that to appease him, we could buy
25:21more LNG, you know, more energy from him, more LNG. And this is the worst idea ever. Because
25:28first of all, the EU is importing 40% of its LNG from the US. So we don't want to increase
25:35our dependency to the US and find ourselves in an awful situation. And then second of all,
25:40LNG is terrible, absolutely terrible. Yeah, liquefied, exactly, energy gas that comes from
25:46fracking. So it's terrible for climate. And actually, it's one third more in emission
25:52intensive than coal. So if we increase our dependency to LNG, then we automatically
25:57increase our carbon footprint. So that would be a terrible solution.
26:00Of course, drill baby drill, wasn't that his whole campaign motive? You're of course,
26:03from the European Chamber of Commerce. We wanted to hear from the American
26:07Chamber of Commerce too, to hear how they feel about this potential looming
26:10trade war. So we had a chat with Thibaut Luchty. He's their Senior Director, take a listen.
26:16As an organisation, we don't support bringing tariffs up, because ultimately, they would bring
26:20up prices for consumers, but they will also disrupt the supply chains. The supply chains
26:25are very integrated across the Atlantic. So everything the EU and the US should be focused
26:30on is advancing their commercial relationship, as opposed to creating new trade barriers. And
26:34what we're hearing from the companies is a concern around the potential escalation
26:38of the trade dispute, with the EU's intent to put in place countermeasures. At the same time,
26:43what we really see as well as a window of opportunity for both sides to talk to each
26:47other, the EU and the US can actually be creative and think about what could be put on the table.
26:52We're talking about energy, defence, existing tariffs, to make sure that we avoid a negative
26:58spiral of tariffs that would basically just hurt our economies.
27:01So that's Thibaut Luchty from the American Chamber of Commerce, worried about how bad it could get.
27:07Can you give us some examples of how your members as well are concerned if it gets really bad?
27:12Well, the whole economy is concerned. It's a massive injection of money into the European
27:17economy, the trade with the US. So anything that creates friction with that is problematic
27:24to businesses at large. For us, in parallel to, as Thibaut said, trying to tackle these issues
27:32and to have a constructive dialogue with the US, I think this is also a signal that we need to
27:37focus on making sure that the EU itself is functioning properly, that the single market
27:42works properly. Mario Draghi said earlier this week that if we can tackle the non-tariff barriers
27:49within the EU, that would have an injection to our economy that would mean that the US input
27:57pales in significance. So we need to really work on that as well. We can't ignore the fact that
28:02this is happening, so we need to try and mitigate it, but in other ways.
28:05So the EU needs to work on itself and not just react to everything Donald Trump says,
28:09President Trump. But we do remember back in the first era of the Donald Trump presidency,
28:14Jean-Claude Juncker, the former commission president, he did manage to smooth out relations
28:20and via dialogue, they did manage to come to a compromise. Do you think in the end,
28:24kind of adults in the room will be able to do the same this time?
28:28That is the pattern with a Trump negotiation, right? It's the same thing that we saw when he
28:34used to negotiate to try to get funding for his border wall, for instance. He shut down the
28:38government for weeks only to accept the deal that he was initially offered at the beginning.
28:42The deal he made with Jean-Claude Juncker that you mentioned also included an element about
28:46buying more American energy. Now, very arguably, and quite credibly, that was a pretty empty deal.
28:52There was not necessarily anything the EU could tangibly do to make people buy more LNG,
28:56but it's about what you can have in that press conference.
29:00Absolutely, it is indeed. Well, thank you so much to our panellists for being with us
29:05this weekend here on Brussels, my love. If you're curious about any of the topics,
29:10and of course, for more analysis on Maros Stefkovic and the outcome of his trip to DC
29:14this week, do take a deep dive into Euronews.com. Our trade reporters have been taking a closer
29:20look. But for now, thank you so much for joining us here.
29:23Take care and see you very soon here on Euronews.
29:34Hello there and welcome to Brussels, my love, Euronews' weekly chat show on European affairs.
29:40I'm Maeve MacMahon, and I'm joined here in the studio by Ben Butters, the Chief Executive
29:44Officer at Eurochamber, Chloe McElligac, climate and environmentalist activist, and Corey Bennett,
29:50Energy and Climate Editor for Politico Europe. And while we were taking a look back at the news
29:55this week, one trend that was hard to ignore was this. Corruption here in Europe is not just
30:01sticking around, it's getting worse for the second year in a row. That's according to a new report by
30:06Transparency International. Several European countries are regressing on their corruption
30:12index, including major economies like France and Germany. Meanwhile, Romania, Bulgaria and Hungary
30:19are the most corrupt, and corruption is still pretty high in Italy and Greece, the same as last
30:24year. So these are pretty gloomy statistics to come out of Transparency International,
30:29but perhaps not surprising, Corey. Well, it's an issue that the EU has been grappling with for a
30:33number of years now, and you can see that they've tried to address it in a number of ways, right?
30:38Initially, they tried to pursue Article 7 proceedings against Hungary, which potentially
30:42could strip them of their voting rights. That went nowhere. They put conditions on EU funds
30:47going to countries. We've seen them attempt to withhold funds and freeze funds, but it's not
30:52necessarily changed behavior. They have a new prosecutor's office that's going after doing
30:57some good work. It's gotten off the ground, launched over 200 cases last year. But once again,
31:02Hungary is not participating in the prosecutor's office. Yeah, I mean, I'm not surprised. You know,
31:07everywhere I look, whether it's at the national level or the EU level, I see corruption or I see,
31:11you know, cases where decision makers and private interests are just too close for comfort.
31:16And it's really worrying because I don't think decision makers, including here and especially
31:20here in Brussels, realize the impact that has on citizens. And especially when people are really
31:26struggling with the cost of living crisis, that creates such a distrust for the institutions
31:30and a distance. People don't go out to vote because they feel like this doesn't make a
31:34difference. So that, for me, is extremely worrying. And I get people all the time that tell me,
31:39why should I get involved? Why should I mobilize? Why should I ask my decision makers to do something?
31:44Because anyway, everything's corrupt. Nothing's going to change. And we don't see really any
31:47signal, I feel, from the EU level, as you mentioned. I mean, nothing's really changing.
31:52And until something really is done about it, people are going to keep growing more and more distant.
31:58But just to back up what you're saying there, I was reading reports, indeed, that
32:01many Europeans remain very sceptical about national government's efforts to address
32:05corruption. And 65% of us feel that high-level corruption cases are not sufficiently pursued.
32:11We should really be leaders in this field, if you look globally, but rather we're laggers.
32:14And this is something, of course, that impacts business, Ben, as well. Is it something you're
32:19worried about? Because, of course, corruption discourages investments and limits economic
32:23growth. Corruption is certainly something that we need to tackle. If you ask businesses
32:30whether it's a major problem, it doesn't rank among the top three or four. But in practical
32:34terms, corruption translates for businesses into favoritism, into dubious selection processes in
32:40public procurement. There are many ways that it manifests itself from a business perspective,
32:45and that's not good for the economy, for sure. Europe is six out of 10 of the least corrupt
32:52countries in the world are in Europe. So we're not worst in class, for sure, but nonetheless,
32:58there's no room for complacency, and we need to tackle that. Anything that creates friction in
33:07the economy is problematic to us, and corruption certainly is part of that process.
33:10So we're not worst in the class, but we have a couple who are best in the class here in the EU,
33:14and they're all in Scandinavia. What tips can we get from them, Chloe?
33:17I think there's a lot of different things that we could ask Scandinavian
33:20countries about corruption, but I just want to go back to something else. It's not just corruption,
33:24I think it's the lack of exemplarity, more generally, as well in politics that really
33:28puts off people from engaging in the democratic process. And actually, there is something really
33:33positive because there is this anti-corruption directive which is currently being negotiated
33:38at the state of the Trilog, and it could be really good, but it only tackles the national level,
33:43of course. But there's a very high risk that it's going to get weakened by countries,
33:47not Scandinavian countries, but others, that don't want to see really measures being imposed
33:52on them. And then there's the other level, which is problematic with this law, is that it doesn't
33:57address the European level. So for now, what we call Eurocrats, so people that are working in the
34:02city, in EU institutions, are not covered. So basically, nothing really has been done post
34:07Qatargate. And that, I think, was really a massive wake-up call for so many Europeans who were like,
34:11what is happening in Brussels, you know? And nothing really has been done because basically,
34:15the people are in charge of regulating themselves. And that never really works out.
34:20I do think there's a question here about who should be expected to be addressing these issues,
34:24right? Frequently, we look to the EU because so much of the money that is being spent is EU funds.
34:29It's post-pandemic recovery funds. It's the Common Agricultural Policy funds, which makes up a third
34:35of the EU budget. But the EU has a very limited ability to tackle this type of corruption. They
34:42only have competence over EU funds, cross-border fraud, that type of thing. They've tried to expand
34:47that. They tried to give this new European Public Prosecutor's Office that I mentioned
34:51the remit to go after things that are a challenge or that could threaten EU's financial interests.
34:58It's a vague mandate, one I think intentionally vague, so they can go after more types of crimes
35:03than they traditionally have. But this is not something they were traditionally set up to do.
35:07And so there is a bit of a gap between what I think they perhaps need to do or people might
35:12want them to do and what they are capable of doing with their current level of staffing resources and
35:17competences. Just on the worst pupils, according to Transparency International, Romania, Bulgaria
35:22and Hungary, they're listed. Is that a problem when it comes to doing business, do you think,
35:25in those countries? It certainly is, not just in those countries as well, in other countries too.
35:30Chambers of Commerce try to help companies to deal with it. They have toolkits to deal with
35:35the implications of corruption for small businesses in the Italian chambers, for example.
35:39So we do need to help them. Otherwise, it creates complexity and an unfair and unlevel playing field
35:46for businesses. To me, it all stems from rule of law. If that is respected, then corruption is
35:52likely to be less prominent than otherwise. So this is an issue that we're seeing in two or three
35:58member states in particular at the moment, of course, but nonetheless, that's where it starts
36:03and we need to work on that. There's also something that is really hopeful. For instance,
36:07what we're seeing in Serbia right now, the massive protest. It started from probably a corruption
36:13case, time will tell, but when basically a train station collapsed and there's suspicion that the
36:18renovation work were linked to corruption with the government. Now we're seeing the largest
36:24protest in decades. We're seeing students, thousands of students, but also other parts
36:28of the population taking the street and asking for transparency over the paper of who did the
36:34renovation and who should be in jail today because this led to the death of people. So
36:39people are rising up against corruption. They're also calling on Brussels for some sort of support
36:42or some sort of reaction, but so far they're sad because there was only silence. But on that very
36:47interesting point, we can bring this conversation to an end. Thank you so much to our guests,
36:51Ben Butters from Eurochamp, Chloe Michalakcak and Corey Bennett from Political Europe. Thank you so
36:56much for being with us. And thank you for watching. And if you want to join the conversation
37:00and react to anything you have heard today, brusselsmyloveateuronews.com, that is our email
37:06address. You can also follow us on social media and we promise we'll get back to you. But thank
37:10you so much again for watching. Take care and see you very soon.
Be the first to comment