Tell me why women suffer from postpartum depression?

Gulf News

Tell Me Why podcast host Maria Botros is joined by Clinical Psychologist, Dr. Summer Fakhro, from The LightHouse Arabia to tell us why women suffer from postpartum depression.    1 in 5 women suffer from postpartum depression  There is a difference between postpartum blues and postpartum depression  Men can also experience postpartum depression  A woman experiences a mix of physical, cognitive, behavioral and emotional changes when going through postpartum depression Postpartum challenges usually start within the first year of a child's birth  See more videos at https://gulfnews.com/videos Read more Gulf News stories here: https://bit.ly/2HLJ2km  Subscribe to Gulf News on YouTube and watch more of our videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/GulfNewsTV  #UAEnews #depression #mentalhealth

Transcript

00:00With the baby blues, we're really expecting this in the first month, and it doesn't usually last beyond that. We then have a few clinical

00:08diagnoses that we're thinking about, so postpartum depression,

00:11postpartum anxiety,

00:13postpartum OCD,

00:15postpartum rage. You know, these are things that

00:19usually start within the first year. It doesn't need to be in the first few weeks. Again,

00:23there's a really large number of women who are going through this.

00:26It's actually one in five right now, and I think the better we get at assessing, you'll see this number go up even more.

00:41Welcome guys to a whole new episode of Tell Me Why, which is a Gulf News original podcast.

00:47For those of you who've been listening to us lately, you know that we ask each guest a Tell Me Why question.

00:54It's a unique question for each of our guests, because we like to dig deeper when it comes to certain topics.

01:00We don't like to settle for those, you know, cliche,

01:04vague answers that we can get,

01:07you know, either from a textbook or from the internet. We like to dig deeper.

01:11We like to give you the answers that you need. Joining us in the studio is Dr. Summer,

01:17who is a clinical psychologist at Lighthouse Arabia and the lead for Women's Health Services.

01:23And today we're going to be discussing postpartum depression, which is,

01:28which has been a buzzword for quite some time.

01:31And we feel like more and more women are coming forward with their challenges postpartum.

01:36And we thought this is a great opportunity to start the conversation and to get more information about

01:44postpartum challenges for both women and their partners. Dr. Summer, welcome. Thank you. Thank you for having me, Maria.

01:51So tell us a bit more about

01:53Women's Health Services and how you got into that. Sure. So

01:57recently, just in the past six months, the Lighthouse Arabia,

02:00we've recognized in our clinic that there's been a real need to support women in the community.

02:07So we know that women go through particular life experiences that make them more vulnerable to mental health difficulties.

02:15Only one of these is going through childbirth and

02:18the postpartum period. But we also think about, you know, the experience of a teenager getting her period and we go through PMS every month and

02:27certain women's cancers, for example, that make us more vulnerable and menopause.

02:32So we recognize that there's a real need in our community. And although we'd been

02:38specialized in supporting women for a long time,

02:41we wanted to make it clear to everyone that the help is out there if they need it. And one of my passions has been

02:48women in the postpartum period or maternal mental health,

02:52which is the mental health of a mother at any stage in her journey as a mother, even in the

02:57journey to becoming a mother, you know, thinking about fertility and things like that. So I got into this.

03:04Again, it's been on my mind and it's been a passion of mine.

03:07It's been dear to my heart as a woman myself, being in a community of strong women.

03:12But the way I started coming into

03:15psychology was working with children primarily. So I worked with children for many years, actually more than

03:2115 years now.

03:23I've been working with children, supporting children with a variety of their needs.

03:29And what I realized in that work more and more was that the more we could get parents on board, the more we saw

03:35effective change in therapy. So then I started to involve parents more in my work and more and more over time

03:41I recognized that the parents' mental health is the center of a child's mental health.

03:47Of course.

03:48And that seemed, you know, I had heard that before, but it only came to life,

03:53I think, when I became a parent about two years ago.

03:56And I started to really recognize the value of this first year of life, the pregnancy period,

04:02you know, the journey of a mother and how important and central that is to the family's happiness.

04:08So that's what brought me to maternal mental health and then

04:12recognizing with a group of clinicians at the Lighthouse that we wanted to start this team for our community.

04:17That's wonderful. You know, I think a major part of that as well is educating the

04:23community and educating parents on the importance of mental health because you were saying, you know, a lot of like the

04:31child's mental health depends on the parents' mental health. It is a ripple effect. It is what you

04:37instill in your child, unfortunately.

04:40And we do have a great responsibility towards our children more than just providing them with food, you know, the basic needs.

04:46It's also their mental health. Have you found it challenging educating parents when it comes to that area?

04:52I think in a way it's instinctive.

04:55It's almost intuitive that every mother knows this deep down because that's our true and when our child is born

05:01we're basically one person, right?

05:03We're physically one person and our hormones are linked, you know, the co-regulation of the heartbeat. We all know this is connected.

05:10So intuitively we know how we feel affects how our child feels.

05:15Sometimes I think some parents who have a very strong internal critic

05:20or self-blame

05:23narrative may become defensive about this in a way and say it's not my fault or kind of project the problem somewhere else.

05:31This is what my child is doing.

05:33So naturally there's going to be some resistance with some particular people

05:37but everyone's different and I think a mother or a parent who is coming to a

05:43psychology service naturally has a level of openness already to this idea.

05:47So typically I've found people are really open to it and really willing to work on themselves.

05:52That's fantastic. Okay.

05:54So let's dive into our topic because it is a special one and it is one that we cannot talk about enough.

06:01I think there's always more to talk about when it comes to postpartum

06:05depression or challenges in general. It doesn't always have to lead to depression.

06:10So before we get started, can you just define what postpartum depression is or what are the challenges?

06:17Yes, definitely. I think this is really important that we go into a bit of detail about this because

06:22one of the questions is

06:24what's in the typical range and what's going into the clinical range and there's so much overlap.

06:30Any mother is going to be spending less time socializing with friends, is going to be having disturbed sleep, is going to be having disturbed eating

06:38because that's the nature of being postpartum.

06:41While at the same time those are some of the symptoms of postpartum depression.

06:45So I'll try and clarify and define a few different terms that might help the listeners understand the differences.

06:53So the first one is baby blues,

06:56which is typically within the first month of having a baby. A mother

07:02in 80% of cases, so you can really say this is the norm, the majority of mothers will experience mood fluctuations,

07:10low mood, feeling really sad, tearfulness,

07:13you know things that

07:15they might have never really experienced in their life. They might have always considered themselves to be an emotionally relatively stable person

07:23but because of this huge surge in hormones and the

07:27you know the seismic shift of the nature of having a child, it's really natural to have big emotions during this time.

07:36But with the baby blues, we're really expecting this in the first month and it doesn't usually last beyond that.

07:42We then have a few clinical

07:45diagnoses that we're thinking about. So clinical would be postpartum depression, postpartum anxiety,

07:52postpartum OCD,

07:54postpartum rage. You know, these are things that

07:58usually start within the first year. It doesn't need to be in the first few weeks.

08:02It can start up even two months after. It could start up three months after.

08:07But with postpartum depression,

08:09again, there's a really large number of women who are going through this. It's actually one in five right now. And I think the more

08:16the better we get at assessing and

08:20you know, women feel more comfortable speaking up. We'll see this number go up even more that

08:24women are truly experiencing clinical depression in the first year of

08:30motherhood. That's a shocking statistic. One in five. It is.

08:34So I know every mother can probably think of five mothers who had

08:38babies in the same year and at least one in five. So that's really a huge number.

08:43So what we expect with postpartum depression is a mix of physical,

08:48cognitive, as in thoughts,

08:52behavioral changes,

08:54emotional changes.

08:56So for example, on the emotional side, you might have a mother that's very tearful,

09:00but it might not only appear as sadness. It might appear as

09:05you know, severe mood fluctuations, a lot of irritability, difficulty maintaining their relationships.

09:12Behaviorally, they might become very withdrawn, you know, refusing to go out,

09:16not

09:18enjoying the same things that they used to. To a certain extent, we expect some of this with every mother, but we

09:24it's usually a partner or a family member who starts saying, you know, my partner isn't acting like themselves anymore.

09:33They start, it's very common to start blaming yourself for things. So saying I'm not a good enough mother. It's my fault.

09:40You know, this very negative inner critic can become very intense.

09:44Severe sleep disturbances. So for example, you have the opportunity to sleep.

09:49We know every mother is very sleep deprived, but even with that opportunity, they're not able to sleep.

09:55Again, there's a lot of overlap with anxiety. Postpartum anxiety is also very common.

09:59The statistics aren't as clear, but it might be around 15% as well.

10:05And anxiety can look like obsessions, obsessive thoughts, intrusive thoughts,

10:11you know, thoughts of harming your child. There's a lot of fear that happens around that.

10:19And we have seen a lot of stories, sorry to cut you off, but we have seen a lot of stories of

10:24women harming their children and themselves potentially. Yes. So there is risk and I think many women start

10:30naturally then having a lot of fear that they might do something negative or something bad might happen to their child.

10:36And we're always looking for

10:38what's the impact of that?

10:40So rather than only looking at the symptom itself,

10:43what's the impact? Does it mean that the mother is no longer able to care for the baby?

10:48Or are they avoiding diaper changes or

10:51avoiding looking after the child or avoiding taking them out because of all the fear?

10:56So again, it's really natural. I can say from personal experience. It's really natural to have intrusive thoughts.

11:02That's a really common part of becoming a mother. A lot of fears about our child and what's best for them.

11:08But is it impacting

11:11to the extent that it's negatively affecting how you can function as a mother? Right.

11:15So you were saying out of experience. Can you tell us about your experience, your postpartum experience?

11:20Yes, sure. I did want to say before we go into that that there's one more area, which is postpartum psychosis.

11:27Right. Which is a separate diagnosis and also a very serious condition to consider. Yes. And for those

11:34mothers to just be looking out for

11:36delusions, so lots of paranoia,

11:40hearing things that other people can't hear, seeing things that other people can't see.

11:44And this does need to be treated immediately by a psychiatrist. And it is a treatable condition.

11:50The same as postpartum depression and anxiety. They are treatable conditions, but help is really needed at that point. That's fantastic.

11:58That was actually one of our listeners' questions. So you answered that right off the bat. So thank you for that.

12:04All right, so we can then get into your experience as a mother. Yeah, definitely.

12:08So, like I said, becoming a mother, it opened my eyes to so much. I had already, of course, been a psychologist and understood

12:17emotions come and go. There's waves of emotions. I was working with children anyway.

12:22But I don't think I ever fully processed the intensity

12:26of the emotions. And I think I told myself for so long, I'm a psychologist, so I can handle this.

12:32I know I have the training. I have all the rules, the shoulds and shouldn'ts.

12:36In a way, I think that set me up for a little bit, even

12:41for everyone that's different, but even more of an internal critic

12:46to saying you should be doing it this way and not that way. And how come you're not doing it the right way?

12:52I see this with so many mothers that

12:55all of our suffering comes from judgment, from setting our expectations unrealistically high.

13:03I think I went into motherhood, like many women do, with this idea of what the perfect mother is.

13:12And

13:13the sad reality is that I never was even close to meeting that. And no one is.

13:18And it's really a painful experience to have to sit with that.

13:23I think there were different points for me that were challenging.

13:28For some women, it can be very early on. It's interesting. Some women will find, for example,

13:34the idea of co-sleeping, sleeping together is too much. For some women, the idea of sleep training

13:40is too much. I don't want to do that. So everyone is so different with their experience of what's

13:45normal and what's expected and their own history and culture. For me, one of the hardest things

13:51I remember was going back to work, making the decision to go back to work.

13:56And the pain of just not knowing what's right for my child. And I can't be, as I said, perfect.

14:04And no one is going to be able to tell me if this is right or wrong.

14:09And no one will be able to say with certainty, your child's going to be just fine.

14:15So we all have to sit with this discomfort of not having the exact answer.

14:21So that stirred up a lot in me around questions around identity. I think many parents go through

14:27this. Am I this type of mother? Should I make this decision? Should I breastfeed? Should I

14:32stop breastfeeding? Should I bottle feed? What kind of bottle? There's so many questions. And

14:38I think the reality is very hard to prepare for the reality that we don't have the exact answers.

14:46There might be some answers out there, but reality is there's information,

14:50but the answer is with you as a mother. You know the answer for you and your child.

14:55So it's reconnecting back to our intuition, which we've been really disconnected from,

15:01I think, for a long time. You know, it's interesting that you mentioned

15:05two things that I wanted to actually elaborate on. One, the perfect mother. I remember my mom

15:11telling me this piece of advice. I'm not yet a mother, but I remember her telling me,

15:18do not compare yourself to someone else. Don't compare yourself to me. She kept telling me as

15:24a mother, I went through so many things that you may have not seen as a child. The perfection does

15:30not exist. And I remember that resonated with me. And I think I will keep reminding myself of that

15:35if I can. And if I'm able to, I will remind myself that as a child, I didn't see the challenges. I

15:41saw the mother that did everything she could for us and was always there. The house was perfect.

15:49She was always there for my father. She was always there for us. And that doesn't exist. Behind that,

15:54there was a lot of pain. There was a lot of challenge. And when you spoke about work,

15:59I think that was one of the major aspects that I saw my friends go through, the guilt that came

16:06with going back to work, with feeling like they failed their children because they have to spend,

16:13I don't know, six, seven hours away from their kids to go to work and then come back,

16:18catch them for two hours before their bedtime. That guilt was so painful. How did you deal with that?

16:26Yeah, I mean, it's so interesting because I think we all experience guilt to a certain extent.

16:33If we talk about guilt itself, true guilt, it actually can be quite helpful. I did something

16:39wrong. I'll correct it and that's okay. But I think the epidemic we're facing is actually mom

16:45shame. It's not necessarily mom guilt because we normalize mom guilt. We all have it. It's okay.

16:51It comes and it goes. It tells me what to do or not to do. With mom shame, we are getting more

16:57at a personal level where we're telling ourselves, it's not something that I'm doing wrong that I can

17:02correct. It's that I am a bad mother. I'm not a good enough mother. My child deserves better than

17:10me. Those things, shame is really painful and I think most of our suffering comes from that

17:17shame and judgment of ourselves. All I can say is it's an ongoing journey when I talk about myself.

17:23It's something I'm really working on because what happens in motherhood, the same as what happens

17:29in a couple relationship or in a parent-child relationship or in a friendship, it's not

17:34necessarily about the child. It's about an internal struggle that has pre-existed the child.

17:42There was an internal critic inside of me which I never really heard too much of until I became a

17:49parent. But that helps me realize I need to work on myself and my own self-development and my own

17:56self-love and self-acceptance. Actually, it doesn't have so much to do with my daughter.

18:03It's simply my relationship to myself that needs working. Then when we can get clear on that,

18:10when we feel more at peace with ourselves, we become much clearer on what's right for me.

18:16What direction should I go in? The internal chatter and tension resolves a little bit.

18:23I would like to say I love what your mother said to you. It's so lovely to have someone in your

18:29life who's able to tell you the truth of what motherhood is because there's so much hidden,

18:36I think, in what we see and hear. We don't know that people struggle like we do.

18:44We strive for perfection. Unless we hear it from our mothers who you know you turned out fine and

18:50you're like, okay, this is not that bad. It's really hard to be on the path and feel that

18:57there is something that you're doing wrong. We safeguard our kids from so much that we think

19:02is going to harm them in some way. When they get older, we can be a bit more real with them,

19:08which is probably why. Diving into the technical side of postpartum depression or postpartum OCD

19:18or anxiety, what are the chemical or imbalances, let's say, or the physical implications that it

19:27has on a woman's body? Yes, sure. The thing is our minds and our bodies are so connected. They

19:33are one. We know that. The chemical, there's so much happening at the chemical level. When we

19:39give birth, the surge of oxytocin and all of the stuff that then triggers breastfeeding. We know

19:45at the physical level there's a lot going on. It genuinely does change our brain chemistry. We know,

19:51for example, the amygdala, which is the part of the brain that signals if there's a danger.

19:56That and the activity in that part of the brain changes after you give birth because a woman

20:02becomes very sensitive and aware of danger. A baby's cry becomes a chemical reaction in the

20:09brain to say there's something wrong, which leads to physical symptoms, which also, you know, physical

20:14symptoms of cortisol running in your body. And then that impacts your interest in eating and

20:19your sleep, but then also causes psychological difficulties. You feel anxious, you feel worried

20:25that you're doing something wrong. So that's just one example of how the physical and the emotional

20:30are one. So there is a, as you know, big change in hormones and chemicals in our body.

20:38Our physical body is recovering from birth. So many women are experiencing pain or have might

20:44have experienced a traumatic birth, which puts them at risk of experiencing postpartum depression

20:50or big emotions. So there is there's the chemical side, the hormone side, and similar to any other

20:58depression, there there might be a change in serotonin. And that's why some medication can

21:04have a really helpful impact for mothers who are experiencing depression. On the physical side, we

21:12we notice changes in their eating and their sleeping on their, you know, their weight, for

21:17example, can change. But there are a few things that can put a woman at higher risk for postpartum

21:26depression. One of them is a traumatic birth. Another is a difficult relationship with her

21:32mother, because we start to relive psychologically, we relive many of our relationships and our early

21:39wounds. So early life trauma can resurface. Grief, again, can resurface grief, loss of a parent,

21:47loss of a previous child can resurface a history of depression. If the if the pregnancy was unplanned,

21:56that can sometimes also put a parent at risk. But I don't want to say that too concretely,

22:02because I also see many women who have been trying for so long to get pregnant, put years of work

22:09into getting on this journey of motherhood, and still experience depression. So being depressed

22:15has nothing to do with whether you want your child or not, or whether you're a good mother or not. So

22:20I think that's really important to clarify. Of course. So from your experience as a clinical

22:27psychologist, and someone that's focusing on women's health, recently, can you tell us,

22:33of course, without getting into specifics or details, but can you tell us about certain cases

22:38that have actually successfully overcome, you know, the challenges that they faced or the

22:43depression that they went through postpartum? Definitely. I mean, the the wonderful thing,

22:49I think, about the nature of my work is that there's so much potential for growth with the

22:55child, you know, you're, you're, you're birthing as a mother, right? You're birthing a child,

22:59and now you're a mother, and that's the birth of the mother. And this journey is so magical

23:04and mysterious. At the same time, I do want to say that, for some people, medication can really help.

23:12And I want people to keep an open mind to this. Because there is so much stigma around it. There's

23:18a lot of fear if you're breastfeeding, if you know, what's how's it going to affect my child?

23:23How will it affect me? Will I be dazed? Will I be a zombie? So many fears, but many women have found

23:30and all the research has shown there are many safe drugs to be using. It can be really effective

23:37alongside therapy, I always recommend therapy alongside if a mother is taking medication.

23:44So with some examples, you know, one client I worked with, she didn't use medication, but she

23:50was very anxious. She actually came to me for advice, asking for advice on how to parent a

23:55child. Her baby was only six weeks old. She had started asking about nurseries and sleep training

24:02and feeding. So you could pick up early on that she's always in her life been a high achieving

24:08person. And she wanted to plan step by step what to do as a mother. And a part of me, the parent

24:16coach and me wanted to give advice and tell her what to do for each step of the way. And you know,

24:22I at the same time was going through my own journey. So I was doing my own research. But

24:26the psychologist in me and the I guess the inner, the true me knew that she was probably struggling

24:33to just connect with her child and be present in the moment and not plan the future. So we did a

24:40lot of work on her anxiety, her fears. We got down to early life beliefs. We did a lot of meditation,

24:48things like that just helped her really be present with her child. And you know that her anxiety

24:54really resolved in the first year. But there's, I think there's just so many examples and so many

25:00ways it can go. It's so varied. Typically within the first year or 18 months, I think if a person

25:06is really putting in the work and finding what's right for them, we do see many of the symptoms

25:11resolve. But I do want to say that if it is postpartum depression or anxiety, that time

25:18itself doesn't resolve. Okay, doesn't resolve what's going on, because we can become depressed

25:25about the next thing and the next thing and the anxiety will be about the next thing. So it's

25:29really important to start working, doing your inner work to start addressing what the root is.

25:35Okay, so before I get into my next question, I actually remember I have a friend who told me

25:41about her postpartum, I want to say depression because she went through it for a good six,

25:47seven months, and she was not getting out of it. But I remember her saying this after she got out

25:54of it. I don't know how she did it. She didn't seek help. But I guess she was one of the lucky

25:59ones that kind of sort of got out of it by time. But she was saying that she would wake up every

26:06day wishing something would happen to her. Just naturally, she didn't want to hurt herself.

26:12But she could not get out of that mindset. And I remember her mentioning exactly what you just

26:17spoke about earlier. She had that struggle of cuddling a child and having them there 24 seven

26:23and caring for them all the time. She wasn't working at the time as well. So there wasn't like

26:28a disconnection or like a like a time of her day where she was stepping away. She was there 24 seven.

26:36She didn't have help. She didn't have any of that. And I remember it was so difficult hearing that

26:42from her. It was, it was heartbreaking. And as a person who will eventually think of, you know,

26:47conceiving and having a child, it is something that I think about. So what is your advice for

26:52people like expecting mothers or people who are thinking of taking that step so that they're not

26:57worried going into it? Yeah, definitely. I think, you know, so I guess when we're going through a

27:04journey like that, everyone has their own way of getting through it. There's so many ways to do

27:10inner work. We know that we can do it through yoga, we can do it through talking to a friend,

27:16we can do it with a professional, we can do it through, you know, physical therapy, you know,

27:20whatever it is that for each person, it is going to be different. I think it's very common that

27:28early life experiences will resurface. And that will be the deep down the trigger that causes

27:38the difficulty with a child. And, you know, for example, with that person you're speaking about,

27:44I would think what are relationships like for them? What's intimacy like for them? And I don't

27:50mean romantic necessarily, but just into closeness. What was it like with her parents? Because those

27:57things resurface. And if she if she chose in that moment that it wasn't the right time to consider

28:03health, she might notice that this comes up with other relationships. And at that point,

28:07she might consider again, again, it doesn't have to be a psychologist, but there's some inner work

28:13that needs to be explored. So before a person gets pregnant, I always encourage, I think everyone can

28:20benefit from the inner work, inner healing, the journey of discovering who am I really.

28:27We have an inner critic inside of us, women do. And I think it's really common in this region.

28:33We work with many Arabs and we work with many people from eastern countries as well, where

28:39there's very high expectations on women. And women are not meant to have any of their own needs.

28:44We're supposed to be perfect. And most times I ask moms, like, what do you think the perfect

28:50mother is? They say, well, a mother doesn't get angry or a mother who is just able to always be

28:57there for their child. And it's almost like they're not human. There's no humanity. Who is

29:02this person? They're not a person. Yeah. And that's really unhelpful for a child, actually.

29:07It's really helpful for a mother to reorient and remember being a person is what your child needs,

29:15being a whole person. So again, doing that inner work. So figuring, knowing there's this inner

29:22critic inside of me, get familiar with it, know when it's triggered and practice not judging

29:29yourself. You know that that's a really big part of it. So there's some kind of psychological

29:36things, I think, that are important. There's the practical things that are really important,

29:40like who's going to help you out. You know, that's some people overlook it or expect again

29:46that I should be able to do it on my own. My mom did it alone. I have to do it myself too.

29:51And then in Dubai, we have many families who don't have their extended family. So who is it

29:56really who's going to be helping you out when you need a hand? Exactly. So thinking about your

30:01network, your community, your home environment, who's going to be around and not. And then

30:09psychologically getting, I think meditation, personally, I think it's the strongest thing

30:16that can shift our inner work, our inner dialogue from a place of tension and friction and sadness

30:24and anxiety to peace. Yes. And, you know, again, with spirituality, you know, meditation sometimes

30:32goes with spirituality. I think for some people really grounding themselves in something spiritual

30:38can be moving going into that a little more. I'm going to ask you your unique tell me why question,

30:46which is tell me why it's still taboo. Why is it still taboo for women to come forward? Why do

30:54women still think it's taboo to talk about their postpartum depression or their challenges? And,

30:59you know, they have to suffer in silence. Yeah. Well, I think there's as long as we,

31:06we have been aware there's been pressure on women to be perfect, to be the center of our community,

31:13to be the carers of everyone but themselves. And ultimately, I think it comes back to shame

31:19that because we can't meet these expectations, we feel ashamed. There's an idyllic mother who

31:25we create in our mind who provides and provides endlessly. And actually, we forget that we have

31:30our own needs. And we can feel really low. And, you know, I think sometimes people believe that

31:38because I'm feeling low, it means I don't love my child, or I'm not a good mother, or

31:42I should be better, or it's embarrassing, they think I'm not happy. And, you know, I can speak

31:50for myself. I think in the first year, I worked really hard to perform for other people to to

31:56give off an appearance that I'm a good mother. And all of that comes back to, of course, there's

32:02the inner dialogue, but just the cultural, the historic expectations on women, the blame we put

32:08on mothers for things that makes it really hard to just speak openly about how difficult an experience

32:15is. And sometimes we do that to ourselves. Like we always set high expectations and for ourselves,

32:21not even for the people around us. So that must be affecting it. And I think one of the things,

32:26you know, social media, for example, has been, of course, in a way, it's been great, because

32:30information is out there. But yes, at the same time, we're bombarded with images of perfection.

32:36Yes, of mothers doing it better than us. And that's really exhausting. Yes. And, you know,

32:43sleep training and all of these ideas about the way to do it. Again, as a psychologist, I'm like,

32:48I have this down. I know all the strategies. Until I got to it, I was like, Oh, my God,

32:53I can't do this. Because there's I have my own stuff and my own challenges.

32:59Social media is a big one. I know all my friends who are mothers, they always talk about this.

33:03You always see this, these reels of a mother with six children doing it all. And her husband is

33:10super supportive. And it's just like this ideal, perfect picture, you know, picture perfect family.

33:16And it's just not real. And to be honest, it has affected them emotionally and psychologically,

33:22especially after they've just given birth, and they feel like they can't cope with one child.

33:27And here they are looking at a video of a woman doing it with six children, you know,

33:32so it is it is, it's important to remember that it's just not real, and you need to be

33:38real with yourself. Okay, so what would if you were sitting in a room right now?

33:45And this is just a question that I thought of now, because of the statistic that you

33:49mentioned at the very beginning, if you're sitting in a room right now, bearing in mind that one in

33:53five women actually suffer from postpartum depression, and there are like 30 women in the

34:00room, what would your advice be? These women haven't come forward, they haven't spoken about

34:06their challenges. But knowing that there will definitely be women in that room with challenges,

34:11what would your advice be to ease them into that? Yeah, so I think one of the things is the

34:18building of awareness with internal awareness. So I think the more we are aware of what's going on

34:27for us, and by aware, I want to be very clear that we're not judging our experience. So I'm

34:34aware of the thoughts that go on in my mind, or the sensations that come up in my body.

34:39But I'm not judging it as good or bad. Then they feel that really empowers a woman to be able to

34:46speak up, whether that's to a friend, to a colleague, to their gynecologist. Because

34:54the point where we get stuck is either the awareness is not there, and they're experiencing

34:59physical symptoms, and they don't know what's the stomach aches, headaches, tension, or they're

35:04experiencing again, like they don't want, they've lost interest in everything. But they're not

35:08connecting that all of these experiences are connected to each other. So sometimes they're

35:15not necessarily aware of what's going on. Sometimes they're so judgmental of that experience

35:21that they're not willing to speak to anyone about it. So I think those two are those are two really

35:27important barriers to encourage people to just speak to the people you trust, the people you love,

35:33the your pediatrician, your gynecologist, whoever is there. The other thing I would say is tomorrow

35:41to women, again, at the psychological level is get comfortable in the unknown. Get comfortable

35:48not knowing what the answer is. Many women, I think, who live in our community in Dubai,

35:54were women who came here to work or high achieving or always go go go doing in a busy city.

36:01But with motherhood is very different. A lot of it is about not knowing the answer and accepting

36:07that you don't know and that the answers will reveal themselves and I can just be with what it

36:13is. So practicing that regularly. That's really nice. I like that. Getting comfortable with the

36:19unknown or the uncomfortable, basically. Exactly. Yeah, with the uncertainty. Very, very nice.

36:25All right. So we talk about postpartum and its effects on women. How does it affect the men?

36:32So men also do experience mood changes. I mean, of course, we have the physical side of what a

36:39woman goes through. Statistically, interestingly, they're saying about eight to 10% of men may

36:45experience postpartum depression in the first year after their child is born. Again, a mother is going

36:53through a big shift, but so is a father. His life has totally changed. It's flipped upside down.

37:00And they might have experienced lots of changes in their relationship to their wife. So again,

37:07this is happening for men. They are experiencing it. It might look quite different. There might

37:11be a lot of restlessness and agitation. They might appear very indecisive. They might seem

37:19like workaholics, you know, spending all their time at work. We also know that with men, even

37:26outside of the postpartum period, the way depression shows itself is quite different.

37:32Sometimes it just looks like anger, which is covering up sadness, confusion, things like that.

37:38Because there's socially acceptable ways a man can show their feelings, and there's socially

37:43acceptable ways a woman can show her feelings. But deep down, it might actually be something

37:49like depression. So men are less likely to ask for help. And that's very worrying, because we know

37:56that outside of postpartum, we know that men are at higher risk for suicide, things like that

38:02externalizing behavior, aggression, you know, ending up in prison, things like that. But we are trying

38:08at the Lighthouse also, we're trying to be much more proactive about having a men's support group,

38:13doing things for fathers, things like that, to make sure they feel included in this journey.

38:20You know, mentioning support groups, that's a good, you know, segue into the questions that we have

38:26here. We actually got a question from a listener asking, she's a 32-year-old who is saying,

38:34I've been doing well, I don't need to speak to a medical professional per se, but I would like to

38:40share my challenges with other mothers, where we can support each other. Does that exist in Dubai,

38:46and where can I find them? Yes. So there are lots of different communities and spaces for

38:52mothers, which is so lovely. And there's, there are really good forums online that

38:58give you an updated list. So I would consider if it's non-clinical, I would consider things like

39:03coffee mornings, they have mom coffee mornings, they have mom meditation groups, there are,

39:11you know, messy play activities for children, but the mothers sit together and have tea. So

39:16there's lots of activities, just googling it actually will give lots of answers.

39:22We used to, at the Lighthouse, have a postnatal mental health support group online. I used to run

39:30that. It was about two years ago. We actually stopped that group, and I'll explain why, and we

39:36started something else in its place. So the thing with that group is, firstly, I think for a mother

39:42in the first few months, it's really hard to find the time, designated time to go to a support group,

39:50to, you know, get dressed, and some don't want to appear on camera, some do, and the baby's crying,

39:55no schedule, things like that. So that, there was a bit of a barrier with people making use of the

40:00group, and what we realized is we wanted to create a one-to-one space for a mother to be able to

40:06share what she's going through and essentially screen her well-being. So it's not a clinical

40:14intervention, it's more like a well-being check. So it's just an any average person who is pregnant

40:20or has had a baby in the past year, they come up to the Lighthouse, they have this postnatal or

40:26prenatal well-being check, and it's just an hour to speak to a psychologist, and they can give you

40:31some resources, they can just screen what's been going on for you, give you some advice on how to

40:36move forward. So that's a one-to-one space. But like I said, there are different clinics and also

40:42non-clinical spaces for mothers that exist in Dubai, and I really encourage moms to make use

40:47of this because it's so important to feel connected. Of course, and I feel like I've seen

40:52this with my friends who are mothers, when they sit together and one of them mentions something

40:57and they go, oh my gosh, me too, I just experienced that last week. It makes them feel so much better

41:03just talking about it and just knowing that someone else is also going through the same

41:07thing, and that it helps with the self-shame because it just, it helps you feel at ease,

41:13like okay, I'm okay, it's fine, this is normal. Exactly, exactly. Okay, so our next question is

41:19also a good one, and I think we did cover it briefly in the beginning, but maybe we can answer

41:25it as well. Also anonymous because a lot of our listeners wanted to stay anonymous. I've been

41:31feeling down since I gave birth two months ago. I always read about postpartum depression, but I'm

41:36not sure if I should seek help now or wait it out. Who do I go to and what do I say? Yeah,

41:42this is, this is actually a really good question. How do I start, like what do I tell them?

41:46Yes, well, I think the first thing is many times it's wonderful that this person has been willing

41:53to speak up and consider whether this is right for them or not. One thing to consider is just

42:00booking an appointment with a psychologist. You know, I did that when I was pregnant and I'm so

42:06glad that I did because I think that everyone's experience is so different and there's a very

42:11fine line between what's clinical versus what's just a struggle, but there's no harm.

42:17Well, if she's able to book an appointment with a psychologist, I'd encourage her to,

42:21and not to worry about what to say because the psychologist will ask all the questions.

42:25Will draw it out. They'll draw it out, yeah, they'll help you, they'll guide you as needed,

42:30and it might just be that's a one-off or they might suggest working on some things together.

42:35All right, we've kept you for so long. Thank you so much for your time. Are there any closing

42:40remarks that you'd like to end with? I think just a general statement to women out there to

42:46make use of the people in your community, to connect with each other, and to work as hard

42:52as possible on not judging yourselves. You know, we're all here together. We all go through

42:56hardship and we all, you know, value each other and what each of us brings. So yeah,

43:04just a message of connection to women out there, everything you're going through.

43:07That's very sincere. Thank you so much, Dr. Sommer. Thank you guys for listening. If you

43:12have any questions, we will always love to have Dr. Sommer back on the show. Send us your questions

43:20on podcasts at gulfnews.com. We'll be sure to have them answered and we'd love to have Dr.

43:25Sommer back on the show. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for having me.

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