00:00This is Apropos. Schools here in France are to introduce mandatory sex education classes,
00:08covering topics such as consent, gender identity and online pornography from September. The
00:14reformed syllabus has faced pushback though from conservative groups, leading to a decision
00:20to delay discussion of gender identity until children are older and in high school.
00:27In many countries, sex is considered a taboo topic, but France's revamped sex education
00:34syllabus aims to change that. Children as young as kindergarten age right up to high
00:39school, including in private schools, will learn about consent, gender identity and online
00:44pornography. For younger children, the focus will be on emotions and basic consent through
00:49everyday scenarios, such as asking permission to sit next to someone. As pupils get older,
00:55they will delve into more complex issues. They will look at gender stereotypes, sexual
00:59violence and differences between biological sex and personal identity. France's education
01:05minister believes it can help combat rising sexism and sexual assault against minors.
01:11A recent report released this month from the country's government body, the High Council
01:15for Equality between Men and Women, found that 94% of women aged 15 to 24 think it's
01:21harder to be a woman today, up 14 points on 2023. The organization's president said
01:28Women are more feminist and men are more masculinist, especially young people. The French expect
01:35political leaders to take action against sexism, in particular by finally introducing courses
01:41in education for emotional, relational and sexual life, which they widely approve of.
01:49Despite this wide approval, conservative groups are resistant to such a change. One group,
01:55SOS Education, which is closely associated with the Catholic Church, say the new programme
01:59endangers the physical and mental health of young people. Sophia Dujet, co-author of a
02:04book on sex education and former spokesperson of SOS Education, said it's
02:09The Trojan horse combination of two woke ideologies. The first is the ideology that there is the
02:16notion of sexuality in children, and the second is that the child is capable of defining
02:21their gender, whether they are a boy or a girl.
02:24In response to such criticisms, the government has revised some elements. References to gender
02:29identity are down from 15 mentions in an earlier draft to seven. The government also promised
02:35that changes would not take the place of families or parents.
02:39Let's bring in sociologist Kristen Barber. She's associate professor and chair of race,
02:44ethnic and gender studies at the University of Missouri, Kansas City. Thank you so much
02:50for being with us on the programme this evening. There has been much discussion here in France
02:56about consent in recent months, particularly, as I'm sure you're aware of, the trial of
03:00Dominique Pellicot, the man convicted over the mass rape of his former wife. Recently
03:05also we had the case of a woman who was blamed by the French courts in a divorce case because
03:11she was no longer having sex with her husband. So teaching young children here in France
03:17about consent, what impact do you think that is going to have more widely on French society,
03:22Kristen?
03:23Oh yes, I think that focusing on consent is really an issue that's key to combating rampant
03:32sexual abuse and advances in human rights. Valuing consent as a way of moving away from
03:39historical ideas that girls and women in particular are marital and sexual property.
03:46And that might spark some debate within particular communities. But ultimately, if we want to
03:53talk about consent as at its core, an issue of mutual respect, bodily autonomy and the
04:01importance of boundaries and avoiding harm, then we can't get away from a conversation
04:06about consent and about teaching children consent from a very young age.
04:11And here in France, this is happening despite the fact that the notion of consent, it doesn't
04:16actually exist under French law when we're talking about rape. It's not part of the legal
04:22definition. Is it time, do you think, for that to change? Or are you surprised that
04:26that is still an issue?
04:28Yeah, absolutely. There are changes that are taking place. Marital rape in France has really
04:33only been illegal since 1990. And that doesn't mean that there have been cultural shifts
04:39that we have seen along with legal shifts, right? The idea that there is a marital duty
04:45for women to be accessible sexually to their husbands reduces women to sex and sexuality
04:56rather than defining them as autonomous, free partners within that arrangement. So if we're
05:01going to, you know, value women as autonomous people who should be able to move around the
05:09world with freedom and from freedom of harm, then we have to begin centering consent in
05:16our definitions of what a healthy and legal relationship and sexual interaction looks
05:23like.
05:24And Kristen, what do you make of the French government's decision to push back discussion
05:29of gender identity until children are older?
05:34Research shows that children really form a solid understanding of their gender identity
05:41as early as three to five years old. And so it makes sense to talk with children about
05:49gender and gender identity. We can decide not to talk about gender identity, but ultimately
05:57children are very smart. From a very, very young age, they're picking up cues and ideas
06:03about who they're supposed to be as gendered people and how they're supposed to act, what
06:09their opportunities are, and who they're supposed to be in relationship to each other as girls
06:14or boys. And so, you know, we can pretend that children don't have any concept of gender,
06:21but this is not something that the research bears out. Researchers who pay close attention
06:27to children and spend time with children in large numbers and study children closely,
06:33sometimes over many, many years, see that children are actually very skilled at understanding
06:39gender and more complicated ideas than adults give them credit for.
06:44And Kristen, this whole pushback from conservatives when it comes to gender identity, it's something
06:49that we're seeing in the US also under Donald Trump. Why has this become such a divisive
06:55issue?
06:56Yes, we have, you know, I think culturally, both France and the United States has a long
07:02history of relying on clear definitions about gender and who people are supposed to be,
07:10who wives are supposed to be, who husbands are supposed to be, and their roles within
07:15society in order to define laws around who has access to what, in terms of access to
07:24jobs and salaries in the workplace, and who is expected to maybe be home with the children.
07:31And so, you know, as we have seen gender progress in terms of increased rights and freedoms
07:39around identities and access for women to work and independent financial security in
07:48the workplace, this has made some people nervous.
07:52And so pushing back against these ideas that gender identity is, and any pushing forward
08:01this identity, this issue that gender is a problem and something we should be afraid
08:05of is really about maintaining a status quo and is really ultimately an issue of power.
08:14And speaking of power, Donald Trump elected there in the US. During the campaign, we saw
08:19an increasing number of young male voters seemingly turning more and more towards the
08:24Republicans, towards Donald Trump. Are these young men becoming more conservative or is
08:29that too simplistic a way of viewing what's happening there?
08:35It's absolutely a cultural phenomenon. We're seeing a backlash against what some people
08:40consider to be feminist agendas, those policies that are pushing forward equality in the home
08:50and the workplace, in the economy. And so we have seen a shift in terms of men voting
08:57conservatively, particularly white men in the United States. But this is also true for
09:03white women in the United States who are moving to the right politically as well.
09:10And only last week, I think it was, we saw Mark Zuckerberg claiming that the workplace
09:15needs more masculine energy. What did you make of that? And are workplaces becoming
09:20more neutered or is this part of what you're describing a wider backlash against women
09:25and against feminism?
09:28Absolutely. As a gender scholar, I would say that Mark Zuckerberg, his comments really
09:34emphasize this privileging of men and masculinity in the workplace. We have a history of valuing
09:41characteristics such as aggression that we see as something that's important to leaders
09:46within the economy. And this is coming at a time when there are shifting conversations
09:52about how perhaps cooperation and clear communication are actually skills that we should be valuing
10:00and encouraging. And so ultimately, as women have increasingly moved into the workplace,
10:06it's not surprising to see people like Mark Zuckerberg try to redefine the workplace as
10:12a space for men and masculinity. It really shows a kind of nervousness around the inclusion
10:23of women in these spaces and an attempt to reclaim them as places for men and masculinity.
10:30You say this also tends to coincide with beliefs that masculinity is in crisis or under attack.
10:37What is behind that perception that masculinity is in crisis? Why do young men feel this way?
10:43Yes. I think that we have a cultural rhetoric that is working to scare boys and men into
10:52this idea that they're going to lose something if girls and women come into their classrooms
10:59and come into their workplaces and succeed and do well, that they're going to lose out
11:07on something rather than seeing girls and women as important collaborators in all aspects
11:13of life. At the same time, we're seeing these small movements around new sorts of masculinities
11:21where men want to be more culturally sensitive, want to have conversations about consent,
11:31and they want to listen to and value the things that women are saying and the life
11:36experiences that women bring to the table in helping to understand issues and solve
11:42problems. So we're holding two truths at once currently. There are shifts for men around
11:50sort of feminist ideas about incorporation of women and equality and equity and the value
11:57of diverse conversations and perspectives at the same time that we're seeing a backlash against
12:04this sort of progress in the form of trying to restake a masculine identity and value it as
12:13something that we should save, something that's at risk. Kristen, thank you so much for your
12:20analysis and your information there on all of that. It was great to have you with us on the
12:25programme this evening. We do appreciate your time. That's Kristen Barber, Associate Professor
12:29at the University of Missouri, Kansas City. Well, that is it from us for now.
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