00:00This is Apropos. We'll put measures in place to keep TikTok from going dark if there's
00:08a viable deal, so says Donald Trump's incoming National Security Advisor. Barring a last-minute
00:14reprieve, the app's Chinese owner ByteDance is set to shut off the application to its
00:20American users by Sunday. The row has prompted hundreds of thousands to migrate to another
00:27Chinese social media app, RedNote. Eliezer Godeva has the story.
00:34With a ban on TikTok looming in the United States, its users have been migrating to another
00:40Chinese platform in droves.
00:42I found the RedNote and it is...
00:46This is the app RedNote, and in only two days, more than 700,000 new users joined the platform,
00:53many of them with the hashtag TikTokRefugees.
00:57I'm one of the TikTokRefugees and I'm used to this. I just want to thank you for welcoming
01:01us to this app. If we do anything wrong, just let us know. Looks like that ban has got into
01:06effect and I'm probably going to lose my three cents per video, but you know what? That's
01:10okay. I like you guys. You guys are awesome. So, thanks.
01:15TikTok is currently used by about 170 million Americans. Many of them make a living out
01:22of posting their content despite concern flagged by the U.S. government over data privacy.
01:28Flocking to another Chinese platform might seem ironic, but people like Gwena see it
01:33as a form of rebellion.
01:35The government said, we're taking away TikTok because the Chinese government having our
01:39data is a threat. To which hundreds of thousands of millennial Gen Z and Gen X Americans went
01:47and we, myself included, downloaded an even more Chinese app and went, here's our data.
01:57But much like TikTok, RedNote is subject to Chinese data laws, granting authorities access
02:02to user information. Discussing politics could also be an issue on the app.
02:08To discuss, we're joined now by Nadine Strossen, New York Law School Professor Emerita. She's
02:15also previously served as President of the American Civil Liberties Union. Thank you
02:19so much for being with us this evening, Nadine.
02:22Thank you for having me.
02:23Thank you so much for your time. What exactly is set to happen to TikTok on Sunday? The
02:28legislation itself, it doesn't forbid use of the app. So, how exactly is this ban going
02:34to work if it does come into force?
02:35Well, presumably the app is going to disappear because that was the condition that it could
02:41only continue to operate if it divested itself. And as was agreed in the arguments before
02:48the Supreme Court, it is legally and technically impossible for a divestiture to occur. So,
02:55this is going to be a ban. And that's why TikTok users are fleeing to another website.
03:03And you've described this ban as an unprecedented violation of free speech rights. Why exactly
03:09are you so concerned?
03:12Very concerned because this is the first time in United States history that the government
03:19has banned an entire platform because of completely unsubstantiated national security and privacy
03:29concerns. Now, to be sure, there are national security and privacy risks associated with
03:36all online platforms. And for years, I and other digital rights advocates in the United
03:43States have been advocating for the kind of thoroughgoing privacy protections that do
03:49exist in Europe, but not in the United States. But it's completely nonsensical to single
03:55out one single app and not do anything to protect national security or privacy with
04:03respect to users' data in other apps, including other apps that have close links to the Chinese
04:10government. Almost half of the entire United States population is now using TikTok, not
04:18only for every form of self-expression, communication, receiving news, entertainment, art, but also
04:26for engaging in business. So, this is really a violation not only of the rights of TikTok,
04:33but also of the rights of a whole lot of Americans.
04:38And is there any evidence of a risk to national security then, and evidence either that it's
04:45influencing or manipulating users? Why exactly do you think American authorities are so concerned
04:51about this particular app?
04:54You know, there actually have been briefs that have been submitted arguing that perhaps
05:00there is nothing more to explain the singling out of this particular app, just the animosity
05:08and hostility between the United States and China. Some advocates have even argued that
05:15this smacks of national stereotypes. We have a sad history of exaggerating national security
05:24concerns when immigrants or foreigners or various minority groups are involved. And
05:32please, you know, it's really important to note that TikTok itself, as well as national
05:38security experts and digital rights advocates in the United States, have argued for alternative
05:45measures that would be more effective in protecting national security and privacy, including a
05:52national security agreement that TikTok was in the process of negotiating with the United
05:58States, which would have given more security and more privacy to TikTok than on Facebook,
06:06X, all manner of other online platforms that are still allowed to function in the United
06:14States.
06:15And you say as well that users really need to be educated about what's happening with
06:20their data and also when it comes to recognising misinformation and fake news.
06:27You know, we're never going to be able to block our way out of the dangers of disinformation,
06:33including propaganda from our own government and the Chinese government and others. The
06:39best defence is to educate users, media literacy, information literacy, to learn how to do fact
06:48checking, to learn how to look for reliable sources, not to believe everything that they
06:54see online.
06:56And we do have legislation in place here in Europe when it comes to data protection, GDPR.
07:02Why does that not exist in the United States?
07:05You know, it's such an interesting question. Many of us have been advocating for it for
07:09years and we were actually quite close to securing bipartisan legislation that would
07:16have been passed even in advance of the European legislation.
07:20But that was right before the 9-11 terrorist attacks in the year 2000 in the United States.
07:28And as has throughout our history been the unwarranted response to, in that case, a demonstrated
07:36threat and attack on national security, people are willing to give up privacy in the assumption
07:44that that will somehow lead to more security.
07:47And since then, the support for widespread privacy protection, unfortunately, has not returned.
07:55And we saw today Donald Trump's incoming national security adviser saying that the new
08:01administration is going to put measures in place to keep TikTok from going dark.
08:06Why is Donald Trump so keen to protect the app?
08:09We also see that the TikTok CEO is going to be at his inauguration on Monday.
08:15Far be it for me to psychoanalyze Donald Trump, who has been very volatile on this issue as
08:22well as other issues.
08:24In the past, he has called for banning TikTok.
08:28One has to assume that because of his personal relationship and perhaps business and other
08:35concerns, he's made a decision for now that it is a net benefit to allow TikTok to continue
08:43to function.
08:44But that is a very unstable basis, executive discretion.
08:48And I would say that if it were Joe Biden or any other individual, what we are talking
08:53about are fundamental First Amendment rights that should not be subject to the whims or
09:00policy decisions of any elected official, but should be protected for all Americans,
09:08regardless of how unpopular or generally feared the platform might be by government officials.
09:15And as we've been seeing people, they might be leaving TikTok, but they're just migrating
09:19to other apps, including some of those, the hundreds of thousands who are moving to another
09:24Chinese owned app, Red Note.
09:26The same problems there too, presumably, we're likely to see.
09:29Exactly.
09:30And national security experts have pointed out that there are all kinds of workarounds,
09:36including using, using offshore accounts and using virtual networks.
09:43I'm sorry, I'm forgetting what the technical term is.
09:45I'm not technically sophisticated, but technological experts have said that it would be so easy
09:51for especially the millennials and the Gen Z's and the Gen X, who are very technologically
09:57adept to find ways of, other ways of pursuing information and for that matter, exposing
10:05themselves to misinformation.
10:08Some of them also doing it as a protest vote, as we saw in that report.
10:12Nadine, thank you so much for joining us this evening.
10:15That's Nadine Strossen, New York Law School Professor Emerita and previous president of
10:19the American Civil Liberties Union.
10:21Thank you so much for your time.
10:23Thank you so much.
10:24Well, that is it from us for now.
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