- 2 years ago
Renowned gender equality campaigner, speaker and training facilitator Gina Martin will be in conversation with Maya Oppenheim, The Independent’s Women’s Correspondent. Don’t miss this opportunity to hear from Gina and Maya as they discuss their ground-breaking work and the ongoing fight for gender equality.
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00:00Do you want to just, yeah, introduce yourself to people that don't know about your work
00:04and your book?
00:05Of course. I'm Gina Martin and I'm, I would probably describe myself as a gender equality
00:11activist, writer and campaigner, um, and speaker and I'm also a facilitator in schools across
00:17Australia. So I do lots of different jobs, but mostly all of the work is about trying
00:20to disrupt, um, kind of the harm that socialization of gender causes. And I usually work at the
00:26intersection of like sexual violence, misogyny and gender, I usually say.
00:29Okay, great. Well, thank you so much. Obviously we've worked together before and we did that
00:33interview.
00:34Do you want to introduce yourself so we'll know about your great work too?
00:38Yeah. So I'm Maya Oppenheim. I work at The Independent as a journalist. I've worked there
00:43for eight years now. I work as the women's correspondent, the first and only person with
00:48this job title at a UK news outlet. Um, so I've been in the role for six years. This
00:54is my book, Rocket Guide to the Patriarchy.
00:57Mine. I should have mine, but I'm in a little motel.
01:01It's okay.
01:02I'm so unprofessional.
01:03We'll talk about it in a bit. Um, but yeah, that's, that's me in a nutshell. So yeah,
01:08I'll start with some questions for you, Gina. Thank you so much for joining. So yeah, can
01:12you tell me and everyone else about the impetus for your book, please?
01:16Yes. So my book, which is out on paperback, which is no offence, but, um, in sort of seven
01:24years of gender equality work, I just found that like every event I went to, or every
01:29time I opened any of my platforms, I was constantly asked how to answer questions in conversation,
01:36um, that are around some of the stickiest, more icky subjects in society. So the things
01:41that were really struggling with.
01:43Constructive, I guess, is always the question. And definitely women would be like, how do
01:57you respond to kind of comments that are like misogynistic without like losing your mind?
02:03So I decided I'd create something that brought together all the people that I've learned
02:11from on all the topics that I'm not an expert in or I don't work in. So like climate change
02:18and you know, anti-blackness in the UK and white supremacy and criminal justice system
02:25and Islamophobia and all different topics and all different like struggles that we have
02:29in society and tensions, who are those people that I've learned from? So I was like, I'll
02:32bring those people together. And then I'll kind of create a project in which we take
02:3520 of the most common phrases we hear in society on some of the most pressing issues and some
02:40of the most pressing tensions and then kind of unpick them. Like, where do they come from?
02:45What what do they do in conversation? What kind of issues do they cause in society? What
02:49do they do in culture? And why do we say them in the first place? And what's the thinking
02:52behind it or the attitudes behind it? So I took like 10 around misogyny, sexual violence
02:57and gender. And then I had experts, writers, advocates and activists and educators come
03:00in and write on topics that I couldn't write on. And that felt important as well, because
03:05I feel like it's really easy to get to a point where you have a certain amount of knowledge
03:08and stuff, but you always learn stuff from other people. And it feels really important
03:11to like name those people and give them the space in your work as you go through your
03:15career, because you only got it from them, you know, you only were able to learn because
03:18of their knowledge.
03:19Yeah, no, it's a really interesting idea for a format for a book. Yeah. And how's the reception
03:28been so far? How good about a year? Is it?
03:33Yeah, yeah, just over like a year and a half, a couple years. It was good. Like the events
03:38were really nice. I was able to like go around the country and have conversations with people
03:44who do, you know, our work has crossover, but is different in many ways, too. And like,
03:49I think just what was really heartwarming was that a lot of the people who have followed
03:54my work, who are usually people who look and sound like me, right, who are usually like
03:58young white women who are trying to like show up and know more and learn more, but aren't
04:05super confident in that process or like for all the different stages. They were like coming
04:11up to us at the events and being like, OK, so I had this conversation and it went this
04:15way and I really wanted to be able to like lead with curiosity and not escalate and how
04:19do you do that? And there's just it was just a really, really nice like community of people
04:22being like, how do we make how do we stand firm in our beliefs and also make conversations
04:27about really hard things actually useful? And that just felt really hopeful. So I really
04:32loved them. I love those events.
04:34It's hard sometimes with some of the people you encounter online who say the most kind
04:40of vitriolic or just kind of insane stuff. It sometimes can be hard to find middle ground
04:46with them.
04:47Yeah, I don't try and find middle ground with anyone online. I just I don't even do it online.
04:51I'm like, nah, this isn't the place.
04:53We'll get to that in a bit. But yeah, so just to talk a bit about, yeah, your political
04:58journey sounds cliche. So obviously, you know, yeah, you've hit the headlines in a major
05:05way for making up skirting illegal. And then I know that, yeah, your kind of approach towards
05:11the criminal justice system has changed. Yeah. How would you describe, yeah, that kind of
05:16journey trajectory you've been on?
05:20I think ultimately, probably when I was 25, and I was like fighting to change the law,
05:25I probably the criminal justice system was probably the biggest thing I could imagine.
05:30I think like the idea of criminalizing upskilling was like the biggest it could possibly get.
05:33And I didn't really at any point think that I'd necessarily be able to finish that, but
05:39felt like I had to try. And as I went through my work, and worked on lots of different campaigns
05:46and was consulting and was in a kind of beautiful, decentralized community of like activists
05:51and advocates. I think after the law change, I was like, started to feel uncomfortable
05:59within, you know, I just felt really uncomfortable the institutions that I was working in the
06:03whole time, really, actually, like working in Parliament and, and looking at like incarceration
06:07in the UK towards the end of that being like, okay, I don't know that criminalizing something
06:13is the most impactful change necessarily that I could make now I kind of believed that
06:20if you change a law, you change a problem when I was 25. And I definitely know that's
06:23not the case now. And I think there was a big reckoning a couple of years after the
06:28law change, or maybe actually was a year, it would have been a year after the law change
06:30where a group of my sort of friends called me in and they were like, hey, like, some
06:35of the work you've done and the ways you speak don't align with the values and principles
06:40you believe you hold. And it was a bit of that compartmentalization where I was like,
06:44I really don't believe in incarceration. I think prisons disappear people. I don't think
06:49they disappear problems. I don't think they rehabilitate people. I don't necessarily I
06:53don't think they're harm reduction. I think they actually cause a lot of harm to people.
06:57And I don't necessarily know that men and it is men overwhelmingly who commit the act
07:02of obscuring although barely anyone is in prison for that particular sexual offense,
07:08sexual offenses in general, in general, I don't know that. Yeah, the men who go into prisons
07:15are incarcerated for these kinds of offenses come out less likely to harm people. And I've
07:20decided, okay, when you when I've now that I've created this law, this isn't mine anymore.
07:24This is this law is when you create something that big, it's no longer yours. It's something
07:29way bigger than you and victims and survivors are using it and feel so grateful to have it.
07:34And that is also true. And that's their experience. And I've definitely I would say
07:39I've benefited from laws like this to like the stalking case I had that you worked on as well.
07:46I benefit from my stalker being in jail because my immediate safety was at risk. But at the same
07:51time, I was like, I actually want to be someone who is able to work in prevention, not in just
07:56disappearing people are in criminalization. And though I might change laws in the future,
07:59I wouldn't want to criminalize again, because it feels like I really want to make my law moot
08:04if I can, like I don't want that to be happening in the first place. So prevention just feels much
08:08more in my integrity as a place to go. But I think when I was 25, I couldn't even imagine that. And
08:14that was kind of changing the law was kind of the ultimate thing I thought I could do at that point.
08:18Yeah, no, it's really interesting. I think it is just such a tricky issue,
08:23because there are obviously people out there that are a massive, massive danger and risk.
08:29Yeah, overwhelming women, but victims overall. So, yeah, to get that balance between you how
08:38you deal with this problem, by like protecting the safety and the human rights of the victims,
08:43while at the same time actually tackling the problem. And yeah, UK prisons are so bad on
08:48any kind of rehabilitation, you know, 23 hour a day bang up sometimes, you know,
08:54living like rats in like, really inhumane conditions, rife with human rights abuses,
09:00not helping anyone. And I think sometimes people take a very reductive kind of,
09:05yeah, black and white stance, lock them away the key. Yeah, so it's but then also, you know,
09:13if you had a daughter who's getting, yeah, you know, her abusers relentlessly harassing her,
09:19she's broken up with him, you know, smashing up her car, things like that, which is so common.
09:24And yeah, interviewed so many domestic abuse survivors in this role, some of the lengths
09:30that the perpetrators will go to. So yeah, it's really hard to think of a good solution.
09:35Yeah. And I think that's why it was super important to be like, to, you know,
09:39write about it once and be like, this is where I've gone to, I've gone to prevention, but not
09:42to trash something or to say one is wrong or right, because I think it's like a really complex
09:47balance. And ultimately, I think we want like, rehabilitation, we want prevention, full stop.
09:51But this is the system we have now. And so lots of activists are working within that system,
09:55because that's the access we have. It's just super complex. Yeah, yeah. I thought the article that
10:01you wrote for the Guardian was really good about, you know, how your views changed.
10:06Going more now to more currently with what you're up to. So can you tell me about the
10:11work you're doing in Australia? It must be fascinating. It's a place of misogyny and a lot
10:16of homophobia in general. Yeah, bigoted views, obviously not everyone. But yeah,
10:22there are big problems. But you're going around schools, yeah, educating people on misogyny and
10:28gender inequality. I think it's yeah, I think it's interesting, because it's really hard to explain
10:31the work, unless you're in the rooms. But ultimately, it's facilitation. So what we do is
10:38we go around the country, we work in schools with lots of different age groups, we also work in
10:42community and sports groups. And we work with teachers and parents. And we hold space for them
10:47to be able to have the types of conversations that they just can't really have elsewhere.
10:50And those conversations are a lot around with students, which I work a lot with young girls
10:55and gender diverse kids, is a lot around what is the experience of being like socialized as girl
11:01in Australia like today. So if this was in the UK, you know, beyond equality, do similar stuff
11:04in masculinity, they have those same conversations, was it what is it like to be socialized as a boy
11:09in the UK today? Here, it's two hours, and I just get to hold space for these young people to explore
11:17and talk honestly, and without stigma about the reality of what it's like to be a person
11:24of their gender. And we have different modules. And then we lead them through that kind of
11:30experience. But really, it's about what comes from them. It's about what they're struggling
11:34with and, and how can we connect the dots for them? Can we have them start thinking about
11:40how their socialization of their gender or how the expectation that attributes and traits of girl or
11:44man or boy are creating environments in which they're being like a little bit of their role
11:51self and not their whole self. So they're expected to kind of stand up. If they're a boy, not quite
11:56don't be emotional, kind of drink the problems away, be all about the banter, treat dating as a
12:01game. And then for the Tomorrow Woman participants, which is the organization that I work for,
12:06there's a lot of like this rigid idea of perfection. And like, this idea of like your value
12:12going down if you have sexual experiences, and all these kind of awful kind of stereotypes that they
12:17have to live up to. It's just giving them the space to talk about that. Because if you can surface
12:20that stuff, and they can start understanding, okay, this isn't actually what I want, or I don't like
12:24this bit, but I don't mind this bit. I want to do more of this, I actually feel like I'm doing that,
12:29but I don't really believe in it. And they start to be able to realize that, and maybe start to
12:32kind of create a little bit of their own identity and destiny and start to feel like they have a
12:37stake in changing those things. But it's just some, you know, it's, it's wild work. Because I
12:42think a lot of people think we're probably going around and talking to young kids and be like, this
12:46is sexism, this is, that's kind of not what we're doing. But that is, it does come up in the room.
12:50And then we have to hold those conversations with care. But it's kind of beautiful work. Yeah.
12:54That sounds amazing. So yeah, keep on going. I guess it's like, even just like, you know,
13:00spelling things out, like that view that, you know, if a woman's had sex with, you know,
13:04multiple partners, they lose their value. You know, it's one of those things that's,
13:09it is a very widely held view, you know, whether we like it, and it's horrendous. But Andrew Tate,
13:15didn't he say with a woman slept with more than, I can't remember if it was three or four women,
13:19she's vile. Yeah, you know, a few months ago, but like that view is, yeah, it's more widely
13:26held than I think a lot of people would like to think or like to admit. So even just spelling it
13:30out and saying it is really powerful. Yeah. And allowing them to say it and say the stuff
13:36they don't always get to say at school is super powerful too.
13:40And yeah, okay, so last question would be a bit in that same vein, which is, yeah,
13:46how do you cope with online trolling you endure? Are you being subjected to a lot now?
13:53It goes up and down depending on what my work's doing. So if I, if I have a book out, I'm doing
13:58lots of interviews, or I've done a big show or been on the news a lot, I've done a big podcast,
14:02then yeah, I'll get a bunch of stuff. And it's partly why I've moved more into, I've come back
14:07to grassroots work on the ground, because it became very hard to do the work I was doing at
14:12the level of visibility, I was doing it without my safety being sort of a real problem. And I
14:21don't deal with it. Well, I remember when I started, I was like, Oh, I'll start by like,
14:26making a joke, or like arguing or like, debating the people. And that didn't work. And then I
14:36started to get quite, I think like, I started to get quite, I want to say unwell, and my mental
14:42health got quite bad, because I was consistently just fielding either trolling, which I hate
14:47calling it trolling, because it's like, they're not trolls, the guys who serve you coffee, you
14:50know, and you do people work alongside, these are normal people with families. And but I got
14:56pretty bad from the amount that I was getting, because during campaigning, it was relentless.
15:00And I think I had a real responsibility to be like, do I want to continue to allow this into
15:05my life? Or do I want to move my work in the direction where I'm a bit more protected than
15:09that. And that's what I've done now. But I think also, it's really easy to see trolling and see
15:17this. A lot of people, you know, be like, turn your phone off. And there's just no way to escape
15:22it. You can't not be on your phone when it's your job. And you can't not be checking messages. And
15:26also you get some email, you get stuff to your house, you get phone calls, it's not just social
15:30media. So I think like, it has been a very normal part of my life for seven years. But at this point,
15:36I think I'm past the point of allowing people to feel like they can do that. And I've sort of
15:41removed myself a little bit from my social accounts and give it a bit of space so that
15:47I can do real work that matters without having to listen to like what friggin James from some
15:51town wants to tell me about how much he hates me for half an hour. Like, I just don't care. Like,
15:54I don't need to take that in anymore. So I think I've got boundaries now where I didn't when I
15:59started. Yeah, that advice. You know, don't look at your phone. It's just, it's so annoying. It's
16:06like, it's always about me. It's like, why do I have to change what I'm doing? But these guys,
16:10take a break from it for like a few hours. And then obviously you go back and you see it. So
16:14it's just like, you kind of have to check your social media. Yeah, it's part of your job. It's
16:20the worst and you can't really escape it. It's hard. Um, can I ask you some questions? Yeah.
16:24Okay. Beautiful. I obviously I've seen the amount of work that you've done like for so many years
16:33now, like the output of writing that you seem to produce is insane. Um, where did it come from for
16:41you the fire of writing about these things? Where did the passion come from? Do you remember like
16:44when you were younger? What was the feeling that got you here? I guess I've always come from a
16:50political family. So it's just always been kind of what I've known quite a long time. Um,
16:56growing up in Hackney in East London, went to a mixed school, really rough at the time that I went
17:02to it. The school's been kind of gentrified as the area has been. So that gave me a good schooling in
17:08life. Then I did, um, you know, and a lot of journalism sadly is very pale, stale and male,
17:16not, you know, a lot of journalists have been to private schools, grammar schools, not all,
17:21but a lot. Yeah. And especially if you look at editors and yeah, certain areas of journalism
17:27are worse than other. Um, and obviously, yeah, there's a massive lack of class and racial
17:33diversity, basically. So I guess my background gives me a bit of a different approach to other
17:38journalists. I did a lot of climate activism as a teenager. So I felt like that kind of.
17:44Yeah, spurred me on. Um, and then, yeah, I pitched this role of women's correspondent
17:50to the independent. I was working as a general news reporter. I was writing about Trump,
17:54like nonstop. Yeah. In the height of him being in the headlines. Um, and I write a lot about
18:03the far right in the US and the UK. And yes, I pitched them this role and yeah, amazingly,
18:08they created it. Um, so I feel like then since then in the role, it's just been,
18:15I guess it's been quite depressing, really. It's just like the extent of realizing, you know,
18:20how far we still have to go. And I guess it feels like things have got worse in the role without
18:25being really pessimistic. You know, when I first started the role, I wasn't writing about Andrew
18:30Tate. Yeah. Um, and then the pandemic hit and obviously my working conditions changed massively
18:37went from being, you know, in the office or out and about five days a week to being from home.
18:42And actually, there was an explosion of stories to write about in the pandemic,
18:45um, women's issues, because there were just so many issues which were disproportionately
18:50impacting women. Yeah. How do you do that, then? How do you when you're writing about these,
18:56this, this depth of inequality and the, the kind of new iterations of misogyny and the power of
19:03those and like all of these horrendous societal issues that we're struggling with? How are you
19:06able to? How do you because I know that I struggle with this and it's something I have to consistently
19:11practice. How do you keep like hope when you're just like that deep in the trees of the stuff
19:16every day? Yeah, good question. I feel like I'm naturally an optimist. And I do think good
19:22without sounding biologically deterministic, I like whether it's, you know, or nurture,
19:27some people are more optimistic than others. I naturally am. That's definitely in my Yeah,
19:34beneficial to me, I guess. Because alongside all the dark stuff that you're covering,
19:42you're also you know, seeing such kind of, um, yeah, tales of resistance and tenacity in the
19:48face of this adversity. So all the amazing campaign work that gets done, you're interviewing,
19:54say, you know, people that have lost their relatives to domestic homicide, who are now
19:59campaigners. So, you know, alongside all the dark, there's also a lot of light. Yeah. And,
20:06and I guess in some ways, it makes you you know, it might sound a bit trite and cliche,
20:10but it makes you appreciative of what you've got, because you think God,
20:13I'm so lucky. And so it kind of puts things in perspective in your own personal life.
20:19Yeah, relate to that, like seeing all those people that are fighting all that stuff, just
20:22like every time I see someone doing something like that, I just cry, because I'm like,
20:26this is what life is about. These people are so amazing. Like, you have to, you have to see those
20:31people, we have to show those people more so that we realise that there's so much hope and we build
20:35that for each other. Yeah. I'm building it for each other. Why was it important for you to write
20:41Pocket Guide to Patriarchy? Like, why did you feel like that as a format was something really
20:46important you wanted to do when you've done all this incredible long form writing as well?
20:49Because it's just like, like having it all in a book. And it's kind of, yeah, it's just completely
20:55different. And it's written in a different tone to like, say investigations or news stories I do.
21:03It's written in a like conversational tongue in cheek accessible, like almost like a column style.
21:08So that's very, and I think that makes it kind of easier to convey ideas and get them across.
21:17The idea was, yeah, very born out of the journalism I do. And yeah, so there's a chapter
21:24on abortion, domestic abuse, periods, gender pay gap, men in the far right, child care,
21:29policing, women's health. Yeah, I won't read them all, but just a couple.
21:33Is there 22?
21:34Yes.
21:35Yes.
21:35Yeah, exactly.
21:36That's so many.
21:37Intersectional, menopause, transphobia, sex work, women's sexual pleasure. It felt really
21:44important to do the chapters on sex work and transphobia because obviously, they're two of
21:48the most, well, two, yeah, yeah, the two most divisive issues, polarizing issues within feminist
21:54kind of world. So I really wanted to get out my views on those things. So yeah, the idea was just
22:03a kind of, I guess it was born out of frustration. I was feeling, you know, having conversations with
22:08friends, acquaintances, relatives even, and feeling like there's just a real lack of awareness
22:15of how far we still have to go to achieve gender equality. And yeah, and just how widely held
22:24a lot of these misogynistic views are, say, on slut shaming, that would be an issue, which I feel
22:29like we've still got so far to go on, as we were talking about earlier. You know, there's so many
22:35people that will say, yeah, I want gender equality in the boardroom and have quite good views on
22:40kind of, yeah, more liberal feminist issues, and then have really, you know, retrograde views on
22:45other things. And yeah, I guess the idea for the book is it would be someone that, you know,
22:52you could be really well versed in these issues, but just want to learn more. Each chapter has got,
22:58you know, a section of stats and statistics. So yeah, it's not, I'm sorry, stats and statistics,
23:04same thing. Yeah, but facts and figures, stats. And then on some of the chapters,
23:08it's got a section on the wins. So that would be like major gains we've had in that area,
23:14or to do it for all these issues. But yeah, in the same way, it's for someone who's feels
23:18confident in these issues, it might also be a book that you could buy for yourself, or so,
23:23you know, someone else who you kind of feel aligned to these causes, but you feel a bit
23:28unconfident about arguing your perspective, and you want to learn more and educate yourself.
23:33But also, it's a book that a lot of people have told me they've bought for maybe their niece,
23:37maybe their nephew, their daughter, their son, a relative, maybe you could buy it for a hinge
23:41date, you know, and that's a dating app in the UK. But yeah, who doesn't have a clue? So yeah,
23:46it's quite, yeah, a book that is so accessible. And I've gone into schools and talked about the
23:52book. So I just feel like with the rise of, yeah, misogyny in the far right, it's important to have
23:58this. Yeah, to be... Great. How was your, quickly before we finish, how was your experience writing
24:04the book? It was quite intense. Oh my god. Yeah. Time job at the independence, I was having to
24:11squeeze in my writing and research, like doing it on annual leave, doing it all weekend, doing it,
24:19you know, sometimes even before work, always after work. And it was, yeah, in publishing now,
24:24as I'm sure you know, the deadlines are, yeah, sharpish. So it was a lot, but I really enjoyed
24:32the process of writing the book. So, I mean, it's depressing all of the research and stuff,
24:37but the actual process, I love writing. So, um, but it's, I don't know how you found it,
24:45but obviously, this isn't a chat about publishing books, but all the book coming out is more
24:51stressful than the writing. Yeah, I agree. Having to get the endorsements and like,
24:56yeah. And I think if you've done a few books, and you're used to getting endorsements,
25:00and you're used to the process with the publicity and the marketing, then it wouldn't be so bad,
25:03but because it's the first book, that felt more pressurized. Yeah, I would say like, if you,
25:08if you're a writer, you really love the feeling of being able to like create something and have
25:13the control of going over the draft and making it perfect and really sculpting and crafting.
25:17And releasing a book is such an exercise in relinquishing control. When it goes out, you're
25:22like, ah, everyone's gonna read it and have to get all these endorsements and everyone's, it's just,
25:27it's a lot. I found that a lot too. It's a real big, I think it's a, it's a real,
25:33it's a real big process. I don't think a lot of people understand what goes into the process,
25:36understandably, but it's just like, so hard. I find it such a challenge to both write it and
25:40then let it go out into the world and then just let it be everyone's after that. And also that
25:44you can never go back and change anything. And sometimes I'm like, I would, I would, I wouldn't
25:48say that now. And then I'm like, I'm working as an online journalist. That was probably one of the
25:54major differences. Not because I'm not used to writing for print, but even if you're working at,
25:59say, The Guardian or somewhere with a paper, still it's just a paper. And the next day a new
26:06paper is printed. It's not as kind of concrete as printing something in a book. But I think,
26:13yeah, it's like you say, letting your baby go into the world and relinquishing control.
26:19And there's some arbitrary factors about, like, at play. I think that's the hardest bit.
26:24That is really hard. And the reviews and all that. I actually got a review once that was a guy who
26:29said, don't let your child read this, you will lose your child to the left. And I was like,
26:34I think that's a great review. Like, I think I've done really well.
26:37Yeah. I feel like I had some, oh God, yeah, just some reviews, which were just that they really
26:43seem like they were just definite kind of incels. But I guess that's a shining endorsement.
26:49I think so. If you piss off the right people, I think you've done a really good job.
26:53All right. Well, look, so nice to chat, Gina. And thank you so much for your time.
26:58We're reaching out. But yeah, keep up the amazing work.
27:02And yeah, you too. Yeah, we'll chat soon. Thanks for having me.
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