00:00Why do you think true crime is so popular?
00:03I think people like to see what makes other people different and the line that they step
00:11over. The only thing I have is that an awful lot of people actually believe everything they see
00:19and unfortunately even true crime documentaries and true crime films and things like this all
00:27have a budget and whoever's got the money in the budget has their slant on it and it would be
00:33wonderful to think that every crime could be sold in 60 minutes or 90 minutes but it doesn't. It
00:40could be years, it could be years and years of detection. For me it's about education and sharing
00:48the experience of what it's really like because people do have this idea of glamorizing it and
00:54unfortunately the youth crime between 15 and 17 is the largest crime area growing because they tend
01:01to see these people as idols and things like this where they really need to be made aware of.
01:08What was it like when you first went into a prison?
01:11It's like when I first went in things are so different to what they are now.
01:15There's no DBS. I went in as a student to do case histories and things like this. My first prison
01:22was Canterbury prison and the first person I spoke to was a young man on remand actually for
01:28for murder and I went in with a pen, a bar of chocolate and a pack of cigarettes which none of
01:35those would be feasible today but I think I was so a little bit naive in the respect that I didn't
01:43think about the enormity of it. It was just always the practical side of going in and doing and
01:49coming out sort of thing.
01:50What was it like working with some of the most notorious criminals like Myra Hindley, The Cris?
01:56Yeah, everybody asks me what's it like to sit and talk to these people. Well it's just the same as
02:01sitting talking to you and me because on the outside they are exactly the same. They don't
02:06grow horns and tails. If they did it would be much easier to catch at them but so when you're talking
02:13to them it's about unveiling and very manipulative people, very much what's in it for me, what's the
02:20point of them talking to us. If they've got a 30 year plus sentence it's always that they're
02:25looking for something for themselves. If they're going to talk then they want something back.
02:30And what do you need as a criminal psychologist? What are you trying to help or get out of them?
02:36It varies right the way through because you've got certain areas that you work at. From the
02:40time that they're coming in on remand, so once they've not got bail when they come into a prison,
02:46you can do the initial report. Are they fit to stand trial? Then if they're court report then
02:53it could be for sentencing. Then once they come in it's their care plan especially at the beginning
02:59because suicide rate is much higher when somebody first comes into prison. If they've got very long
03:05sentences come into terms with that as well because very often they don't they're totally
03:11in denial about that. Did you ever feel scared? No I think it's one of the things because if you
03:19show you feel scared they pick up on it and they will manipulate the situation. You get a lot of
03:24people coming in banging about throwing chairs but a lot of it's either for bravado and let's
03:30see how far we can push the boundaries or it's frustration because one of the things they not
03:35only lose their freedom they actually lose control of their their life. Everything's dictated for them
03:42so even when they want to go and ask questions or something and people don't get back to them
03:46with answers very very small things become very big things. How do you spot a serial killer?
03:54You don't. It'd be really nice wouldn't it? Tattooed across the front of the head but
04:01the only way is by really good police work and putting all the pieces together and unfortunately
04:06for anything to be serial it has to be more than one. So serial killers are two kills
04:13upwards over time and usually in different locations and they have to start putting all
04:18these pieces of jigsaws together. One of the things that we tend to do is look back on old
04:23cases say oh and they made mistakes here at all they did this but you've got the benefit of
04:28hindsight. They've only got what they know at the time and putting those pieces together now there
04:34are a lot more detection tools but they are tools, they're aids. They cannot replace an officer going
04:40out and knocking on doors or even with CCTV footage they've got to sit there for hours and
04:46trawl through this and pick up the minute details. The police have to do a huge amount of work
04:53to actually capture the criminal and then get the evidence to get them to court.
04:58What's the hardest case you've dealt with? I think there's people that stand out particularly for me
05:09there's individuals I've just thought yeah I mean the Victoria Climbie case for me is always a
05:17milestone you know saying that little girl coming over for a better life and the treatment that she
05:23got from her aunt and her boyfriend. I think it's the children one that I think affects most people.
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