THE LOVE OF MY LIFE JUST DIED! Freedomain Call In

Stefan Molyneux

Join me in a heartfelt conversation where we discuss grief, love, and relationships with a caller who has experienced profound loss. We explore the impact of loss on emotional well-being, the role of virtue in forming genuine connections, and the importance of actions over perfection in relationships. Through a theological lens, we delve into the pursuit of a "perfect soul" and the transformative power of transparency and authenticity in fostering healing and self-discovery. Together, we navigate the complexities of grief, growth, and the enduring pursuit of connection amidst life's challenges.  TWO REFERENCE CALLS!  https://fdrpodcasts.com/4905/help-im-in-love-with-an-illegal-immigrant-freedomain-call-in  https://fdrpodcasts.com/4906/dating-an-illegal-immigrant-update-wednesday-night-live-16-sep-2021  Join the PREMIUM philosophy community on the web for free!  NOW AVAILABLE FOR SUBSCRIBERS: MY NEW BOOK 'PEACEFUL PARENTING' - AND THE INTERACTIVE PEACEFUL PARENTING AI AND AUDIOBOOK!  Also get the Truth About the French Revolution, the interactive multi-lingual philosophy AI trained on thousands of hours of my material, private livestreams, premium call in shows, the 22 Part History of Philosophers series and much more!  See you soon!  https://freedomain.locals.com/support/promo/UPB2022

Transcript

00:00:00I'm all ears, man. Tell me, to get an update, what's the story?

00:00:05Okay, I'm thinking how much detail I should go in first off, because if I'm too specific,

00:00:12it'll give it away. But long story short, a few weeks ago, a tragic accident occurred and she died.

00:00:22For more specifics, the listeners or you can remember, she and I were together when we called

00:00:33in and she called in for an episode of herself. And yeah, a few weeks ago, she suddenly died

00:00:42right before we were gonna meet up and potentially kick things off again. So it was quite a shock.

00:00:50And that's the detail of the story that I can think of.

00:00:54Yeah, so I guess, tell me what's been going on since the last time we chatted?

00:01:00Since the last, was that like two years ago? Three years ago?

00:01:04Yeah, it's been a while.

00:01:06It's been a while, yeah. Since then, I have, I moved out of the area I was before her,

00:01:16and started traveling and trying to find the communities all over the place. I joined up some,

00:01:26man, I don't know how specific to be here, in some places in the northern states,

00:01:31some in the middle states, and just having a good time. And then two years ago, I moved to a city

00:01:39because of some friends and opportunity. And that's where I finally found my footing,

00:01:44I moved in with some good friends and now have gotten my career going pretty well.

00:01:51And it's a funny career. So I'm a professional poker player now. And

00:02:00it's been working out, given our last call, that my issue was trying to find like financial

00:02:05stability and how to work things out given my status. But that has worked out extremely well

00:02:11for me. Wow.

00:02:13How interesting. Interesting. Yeah, poker is a great mystery to me.

00:02:21So you may have heard that the challenging game of war, where you lay down one card,

00:02:26and another person lays down another card, and the higher card wins. My daughter was very into

00:02:33that until she was about five or six, but I still find it quite challenging. So poker to me is

00:02:37another planet. And well done. And all of that. And congratulations. And anything else that we

00:02:47should know before we dive into what happened with the one? I don't think they're related to

00:03:00the woman. I think they're like separate topics, if that makes sense.

00:03:04So as far as I'm aware, I think we can dive into that.

00:03:08Go for it.

00:03:11Oh, no. Where should I start?

00:03:16Well, I suppose. What happened with the girl of your dreams, the woman of your dreams,

00:03:22before obviously her untimely passing? How did things go with that?

00:03:27Well, we were good friends, continued to talk, all that. Met up a few times here and there,

00:03:38just on our travels. We planned to do that ever since we stopped seeing each other.

00:03:45But in that timeline, we kept realizing, yeah, we're pretty decent for each other.

00:03:51And we were planning to meet up again, like I was saying. And right before that,

00:04:01plane crash. And just all of a sudden, that's all I can say.

00:04:09So, I mean, you had, I mean, a couple of years, and I'm sort of just trying to figure out

00:04:15what happened with regards to that couple of years and your wooing and all of that.

00:04:22Oh, the couple of years? No, that was just, I'm moving on. We're both moving on. We're just

00:04:30going to stay long distance friends, because we're in different states. And there was no

00:04:36significant intent to rekindle things until it slowly, I slowly realized, yeah, I should definitely

00:04:44try. Given I couldn't quite, even in our conversations through it and my thought process

00:04:52through it, I still think the main issue was money at the time. And since I got that solved,

00:04:59it's like, okay, let's confirm it. And that's about it in between. There was not a tremendous

00:05:06amount of interaction between us. Like it was when we were in a relationship, obviously. But

00:05:21that's about it, yeah. So, again, my massive sympathies,

00:05:28is it too specific to ask what happened to her? Plane crash.

00:05:33Gosh. And a commercial, private, big, small?

00:05:45Small, private, yeah.

00:05:47Wow.

00:05:49Half her family got wiped out.

00:05:52Was it a business, recreation?

00:05:55Recreation. I'm thinking details. Yeah, recreation.

00:05:59Okay. And she was not your girlfriend. Do I have that right? Or she was, but it was long distance?

00:06:06Or how was that working?

00:06:09Not at that time. Three years ago, we were.

00:06:17And just sort of help, because I'm trying to figure out how things play,

00:06:22figure out how things play between you guys.

00:06:26Yeah.

00:06:27So, how did the relationship arc go from,

00:06:31because last time we talked, you were sort of yearning for her, and then what happened since?

00:06:41The relationship arc was like, we broke things off in our separate ways. We essentially

00:06:51said, no, we're just going to move on, continue. And yeah, that's about it, really. Just moving on

00:07:05and saying, yeah, we're long distance friends. We'll meet up once in a while. We'll keep some

00:07:10of the promises we kept even after the breakup. Yeah, not much occurred. I do remember we actually

00:07:20had another call where I kind of went into detail with it.

00:07:27Okay. So, how much in touch have you been over the last while?

00:07:32Oh, like calling once a, not calling, like texting once a week. So, fairly regularly.

00:07:41And yeah, we were planning a little trip together in a nearby place,

00:07:46because she was passing through town, and that didn't go through.

00:07:52And was somebody she knew told you, or you've read about it, or how did you find out?

00:07:57Yeah, a close mutual friend of ours told me, and I was like, oh my,

00:08:02he can't be serious, but yeah, it was.

00:08:05Wow. Now, did you have sort of thoughts of the future, or plans, like, you know,

00:08:13for now we're just hanging out, but maybe someday, that kind of stuff?

00:08:16No, there was intent for me to start things up again on that meeting, to be like, yes, look,

00:08:25look how we've changed, let's see what's up. And I still imagine that future together, and

00:08:32the intent was to meet there and continue forward with that, and I'm pretty sure it could have

00:08:37happened.

00:08:39Okay. And what had prevented that from happening before?

00:08:52I think, well, one, her schooling, and my work. So, I'm just grinding, she's just grinding,

00:09:03we're just in separate towns, it could have happened, but

00:09:11the timing there worked out really well, because she was just finishing up school.

00:09:17Right.

00:09:17That was another, yeah.

00:09:20So, how can I help you? I mean, I have some thoughts, but I mean, this is your sorrow,

00:09:28and I don't want to sort of impose my thoughts on your sorrow, so what is it that you would like

00:09:34to most talk about?

00:09:37I've always talked about how grief was something I'm unfamiliar with when I'm with friends who

00:09:43are grieving, because I have never experienced it, I don't know what it's like, and now I

00:09:47experienced it for the first time all of a sudden, and I myself don't know what to do about it,

00:09:54really. I can logic through it, but I don't know how to emotionally process it at all.

00:10:01And it took a lot out of me for, like, right after it happened, but I've slowly recovered

00:10:09and moved on. I'm glad I took that time to do it, instead of just jumping in right away and

00:10:14moving on.

00:10:15And sorry, you don't have to give me the specifics, but it's been

00:10:19weeks since it happened, or what sort of time frame?

00:10:23Oh yeah, yeah, a few weeks.

00:10:26Sorry, how long?

00:10:28A few weeks, yeah.

00:10:29A few weeks, okay.

00:10:31And tell me what's happened for you emotionally over those couple of weeks.

00:10:38The first week, just devastated, could barely function, can't sleep, can't eat.

00:10:47Like, an area in my stomach died, that's where it felt, and it was just gone and empty.

00:10:59But then recovered fairly quickly, and I had just a tremendous outpouring of support by

00:11:05the people around me, and the mutual friend of ours.

00:11:11So I helped recover really fast.

00:11:13And there's a unique emotion that's coming recently, and this is part of why I wanted

00:11:22to call you, this feeling of, like, not really a feeling, it's like, there's no what-ifs anymore.

00:11:35Yeah, I can't make a decision going forward with, like, some other woman and being like,

00:11:40no, what if it was her?

00:11:43No, that's not possible anymore.

00:11:44So there's this sense of relief, actually, in, like, an almost dark way, but I'm trying

00:11:51to make that positive, if that makes any sense.

00:11:54I'm trying to describe emotions in this way.

00:11:55No, no, I get a vague sense of what you're talking about, but if you could tell me more,

00:12:00that'd be great.

00:12:03The main thing going forward with any girl, and I'm not saying this because I don't want

00:12:08going forward with any girl that I was dating or pursuing, it was always a what-if scenario.

00:12:14What if compared to her?

00:12:16What if I just had the relationship with her?

00:12:18What if I dropped this girl and pursued her instead?

00:12:21Because I would always say, yeah, she's the best one for me.

00:12:26But now that possibility is gone.

00:12:28I can't do that anymore.

00:12:32So it just opens things up in a clean way, if that makes any sense.

00:12:38But that's the best I can do.

00:12:38No, no, I can understand that.

00:12:41I mean, to put it mildly, she's off the table, right?

00:12:44Yeah.

00:12:45Okay.

00:12:47Okay, and what else has been occurring for you?

00:12:58I think...

00:12:59That might be emotionally, just logically, and I'm trying to push it to move on faster and just...

00:13:06My move on faster is with that path that I was going to do with pursuing her and go find someone

00:13:14else to pursue.

00:13:15And that's just a quick pivot.

00:13:18But I don't know if that's too fast or something, given that we weren't exactly in that relationship

00:13:24at the time.

00:13:24But regardless, life's short.

00:13:26And how long...

00:13:27Yeah, for some, for sure.

00:13:29So for how long were you guys boyfriend and girlfriend?

00:13:34It was two years.

00:13:37Okay.

00:13:38And you're a young man, right?

00:13:41I'm getting older now.

00:13:4320s, 30s?

00:13:44Close to 30.

00:13:44You're close to 30, okay.

00:13:46Still 20s.

00:13:47Okay, and she was your first girlfriend, right?

00:13:49Yeah, she was my first girlfriend.

00:13:51Still 20s.

00:13:52Okay, and she was your first...

00:13:54I mean, she was your big love, right?

00:13:57She was my big love.

00:13:59My first genuine one, yes.

00:14:01Right.

00:14:03And sorry to keep circling back.

00:14:05I just really want to sort of understand what the factors were that kept you apart.

00:14:12It wasn't a lack of love, right?

00:14:16It was not.

00:14:17That wasn't it.

00:14:18Okay, so what were the factors?

00:14:19You said school and so on, but those are all surmountable, right?

00:14:24They were surmountable, yes.

00:14:30I know we're circling back to it, but that's something that I've never been able to have

00:14:34proper closure on.

00:14:35I've just always thought I just need to be more financially secure.

00:14:40But I have this one woo-woo theory.

00:14:44You can call me out on this one, but my woo-woo theory was

00:14:48the fact that it didn't work out was because that this would have been the inevitable result.

00:14:56So it kept...

00:14:57Sorry, what?

00:14:59I'm sorry, I'm just...

00:15:00I want to make sure I understand what you're saying.

00:15:01Your woo-woo theory is that if you get together with her, she's going to die?

00:15:09And me too, because I would have been in the plane.

00:15:12Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no.

00:15:14Hang on, hang on.

00:15:15Okay, well, tell me your woo-woo, and then we'll sort of get to the anti-woo-woo position.

00:15:20So go ahead.

00:15:23That's just...

00:15:24That's the woo-woo.

00:15:25It's like if we were together...

00:15:27Now, the reason we couldn't figure out why we can't be together properly was because if we

00:15:31were together, we would have both died in the plane.

00:15:34But it's just woo-woo, and I can throw that out immediately.

00:15:38Well, no, but it was a thought, right?

00:15:40And a fairly significant thought, right?

00:15:42I mean, certainly if you love someone and you feel like the ending of your romance or

00:15:46your love or your passion is going to be some Romeo and Juliet fiery crash, I can see that

00:15:52causing hesitation.

00:15:53But where would the thought...

00:15:56Because obviously you didn't know about the plane crash in the past.

00:15:58So where did the thought come from?

00:16:01Oh, it came after the fact as a way that it explains the quote unexplained.

00:16:12Um, oh, so sorry.

00:16:14So this thought of the fiery...

00:16:15The thought of loving is dying came after the crash.

00:16:19Yes.

00:16:20Oh, okay.

00:16:20No, no, I was asking what kept you apart before.

00:16:24Oh.

00:16:28And that was the woo-woo thought.

00:16:32No, but that's after.

00:16:34I know, but there was like a premonition.

00:16:37Like we can drop it because this is not something I seriously believe.

00:16:43Okay, so we can drop it.

00:16:45But then what was it that kept you guys apart before the crash?

00:16:50I still say money.

00:16:53Well, money is just a passive record, right?

00:16:56So money doesn't keep you apart.

00:16:58It's not like a bouncer or a bodyguard or a dad with a shotgun chasing you off the property.

00:17:03So what was it about money that kept you apart?

00:17:08Um, well, I barely had any and it was very difficult to make it.

00:17:16And then with poker, it takes a while to get things rolling.

00:17:21If you don't ride the variance train properly, but I got it rolling.

00:17:25And so I was ready to fix that.

00:17:29I guess that's all I can think of.

00:17:32And was that her perspective as well?

00:17:34That money was the issue?

00:17:37Um, it was not her perspective, but she did not know.

00:17:48Even when she talked to you, she just said, I don't know.

00:17:52Right.

00:17:52So she said, I don't.

00:17:54Do you remember the title of our show?

00:18:00I don't know them now.

00:18:02Okay.

00:18:02Yeah.

00:18:03If you can remember afterwards, the one I think I know the one I did with you.

00:18:06I can't remember the one I did with her.

00:18:10I'm in love with an illegal immigrant.

00:18:11Ah, okay.

00:18:12Well, that would, that would certainly be it.

00:18:13Okay.

00:18:14Now, so, so she, she was okay with the money issue, right?

00:18:21Um, she said so.

00:18:23Yeah.

00:18:24Okay.

00:18:24And of course, most of her ancestors got together and raised families on incomes.

00:18:29We would consider like equivalent to homelessness, right?

00:18:33No, she was a very wealthy upbringing.

00:18:38No, no.

00:18:38I mean, our ancestors, I say not, not her, like, you know, you talk about the middle ages,

00:18:42the people made the equivalent of like 40 cents a day or something like that.

00:18:47So, um, so yeah, I mean, if, if money was the issue, none of us would be here, right?

00:18:53Yeah, I agree.

00:18:55So it was not the money thing in particular, but it was your perception of the money thing

00:19:01that you had to have enough money.

00:19:02And then you said when, when the poker stuff got rolling,

00:19:05how long ago was that where you started to make some decent coin?

00:19:09Oh, that was like six months ago.

00:19:10Okay.

00:19:13Okay.

00:19:13And then you were hoping to be able to get together with her

00:19:17in the upcoming trip when she was coming through town and make a play for her heart, right?

00:19:23Yes.

00:19:24Okay.

00:19:25And the breakup after the two years together,

00:19:29the breakup was on your side.

00:19:31Is that right?

00:19:33Her side.

00:19:34And her, her argument was, uh, what?

00:19:40Um, we weren't happy.

00:19:42We should be happy, but we aren't happy.

00:19:45Right.

00:19:46Okay.

00:19:46Well, now the, we did, did she mean herself or did, or both of you?

00:19:51Both.

00:19:51Cause we were unhappy.

00:19:53Okay.

00:19:54So what does it mean when you say to process the grief or to process the pain?

00:19:59What does that mean to you?

00:20:00Uh, Oh, even, I don't know what that means.

00:20:03It's like what, what to do with it.

00:20:05I don't know.

00:20:08Um, the point being is if I just get stuck there in the grief, uh, I don't function.

00:20:13So just lay in bed, uh, don't eat, can't sleep.

00:20:18You can't live like that.

00:20:19Well, that's the heart is broken, right?

00:20:21The heart is broken, right?

00:20:23Yeah.

00:20:24I mean, it doesn't mean forever, but it certainly is, is heartbreaking that the great sort of

00:20:28passion of your relatively young life, uh, just died.

00:20:31Right.

00:20:32Yep.

00:20:34Okay.

00:20:36So, and your fear is that you get stuck in the grief and you kind of waste away or, or

00:20:43can't function and, and things just get awful, like worse and worse.

00:20:47Right.

00:20:48Um, that was my initial fear at like, at like the day or two after it happened.

00:20:53Um, the more long-term fear would be, um, potentially sabotaging future relationships

00:21:02with the comparison or like a ghost of her.

00:21:05That makes any sense.

00:21:06Yeah.

00:21:07No, I get that.

00:21:07I mean, she's, she's perfect in a way, right?

00:21:10Yeah.

00:21:10I mean, because the imperfections that creep up in everyday relationships,

00:21:15uh, are never going to materialize, right?

00:21:18Correct.

00:21:19Okay.

00:21:22So I'm floundering a little bit, cause I'm trying to figure out how I can help you, but

00:21:26I'm not sure what the issues are.

00:21:28I mean, I can certainly talk with you about grief.

00:21:29I've certainly had my share over the years, but I feel my, my sort of experience of the

00:21:36call is I say, how can I help you?

00:21:38And you say this, I say, okay, well like this.

00:21:40And you said, no, that's not really an issue, right?

00:21:41So you say, how can I help you process in grief?

00:21:43Well, I, you know, I have a concern that I'm going to lie in bed and I say, okay, well,

00:21:48we can talk about that.

00:21:48And you say, well, that's not really an issue and so on.

00:21:51Right.

00:21:51So I'm not sure how I can help.

00:21:55I'm certainly happy to listen, but I'm not sure how I can help because I'm not sure what

00:21:59your major concern is, if that makes sense.

00:22:01And, and that you may have explained it and I missed it.

00:22:03So I apologize for that.

00:22:06No, I agree with the grief.

00:22:08I don't know what to do with it.

00:22:09So hearing just your experiences with grief and what you went through with that would

00:22:15help a lot.

00:22:16Right.

00:22:16Okay.

00:22:17So, so I guess the philosophical question is why, why do we grieve?

00:22:23Why do we grieve?

00:22:23Now, of course, grief is related to a loss.

00:22:27We have to lose something in order to grieve.

00:22:30And grief is the price we pay for attachment, right?

00:22:39I mean, there's sort of been like rabbits get taken by hawks and the other rabbits barely

00:22:44look up from eating because they don't pair bond.

00:22:47Whereas if, you know, wolves lose their mates, they, they grieve because, so the price of

00:22:52the pair bond is grief.

00:22:56And there are two, two types of grief in general.

00:22:59One is loss and the other is regret.

00:23:04And, you know, if you think of someone, you know, my, my wife and I are very happily

00:23:08married and, you know, one day probably one of us is going to die and the other one isn't.

00:23:13And it's, you know, statistically more likely to be me because women live longer, right?

00:23:17So she's going to hold my hand for the last time and I'm going to slip into the great

00:23:22beyond alive only in bits and bytes.

00:23:25And she's going to have to live on without me, which is, you know, going to be very tough

00:23:32or it could happen the other way.

00:23:33Or maybe we both die in a, simultaneously in some accident or whatever.

00:23:38But so that grief is the result of just loss.

00:23:41And that's the price you pay for the pair bond.

00:23:45Everything, there's nothing free in the world, right?

00:23:48And, you know, the people who don't really experience grief are the people who don't

00:23:51pair bond.

00:23:53Everyone's kind of interchangeable.

00:23:55There may be some regret and loss of status, but that's all social hierarchy stuff.

00:23:59It's not genuine love and pair bonding.

00:24:02So, yeah, the price we pay for pair bonding is grief.

00:24:06Now, yours is a very challenging situation.

00:24:09And I feel for your heart about this, brother, because you have both loss and I'm going to

00:24:16go out on a limb here, a little bit of regret as well, because you were close to changing

00:24:25things in her life and your life.

00:24:27And you had reached that place where you wanted to make a solid play for the permanent

00:24:32pair bond, right?

00:24:32I mean, you wanted to maybe marry this girl and have children with her and so on.

00:24:37And so there's the loss and there's some regret as well.

00:24:46You know, so the typical thing is, you know, some cold hearted guy who never tells his

00:24:50wife he loves her and then she dies.

00:24:51He has the loss of his wife and he also has the regret of all he didn't say, right?

00:24:57I mean, I may have regrets later in my life, but I don't think I'll have regrets that I

00:25:01didn't say enough.

00:25:02That's one thing for sure I won't have.

00:25:05So I guess if we look at it this way, that there's both loss and regret, where do you

00:25:17stand on those two poles?

00:25:20I stand heavier on the loss.

00:25:23I would say it's like 90% loss.

00:25:27Okay.

00:25:31I'm a.

00:25:33I have doubt about that, which doesn't mean anything because it's your heart, not mine.

00:25:37I'm just sort of telling you because the you had two years and sort of sorry, sorry to

00:25:46ask you again.

00:25:46How long have you?

00:25:47Has it been since you guys were a couple?

00:25:48Two or three, two or three years.

00:25:52And those two or three years have, I mean, have you dated anybody else?

00:25:57Yeah, it's, it's been, uh, it's been a lot.

00:26:02Oh, you've dated a lot of other girls over that time, right?

00:26:05Okay.

00:26:06And were you looking for someone that you could fall in love with in the way that you

00:26:10fell in love with the girl who died?

00:26:13Or were you, uh, just looking, uh, just passing time and waiting for her or waiting to, to

00:26:20be worthy of the girl or, or what were you doing in this sort of dating life?

00:26:25It was, it was independent looking for a new love.

00:26:29Yes.

00:26:30Okay.

00:26:31And how many girls, you don't have to tell me exactly, but, uh, in the last couple of

00:26:36years since you were with the girl who died, uh, how many girls have you been in love with

00:26:41the girl who died?

00:26:42Uh, how many, how many girls did you date?

00:26:44I don't necessarily mean sleep with, but date.

00:26:48Okay.

00:26:48Well, in that case, the dating part is small.

00:26:52Um, two real ones.

00:26:55Uh, well, no, I said date, not necessarily have a relationship with like how many women

00:27:00did you go on dates with?

00:27:04Oh, well, I see.

00:27:08Usually I just, um, uh, do something stupid or if I date them, then we're immediately

00:27:14in a relationship.

00:27:15Um, so, uh, go on dates in the colloquial sense, maybe 12, um, and then two relationships.

00:27:26And you said do something stupid.

00:27:28Does that mean the one night stand?

00:27:30Yes, that includes that.

00:27:32Okay.

00:27:32So, uh, you dated 12.

00:27:35Sorry.

00:27:35You went on dates with 12.

00:27:37You had serious relationships with two and how many did you sleep with?

00:27:42Uh, all of them.

00:27:44Oh, you slept with all of them.

00:27:45Is that right?

00:27:46Yeah.

00:27:47And did you sleep with the women knowing that you didn't want a relationship?

00:27:52Yep.

00:27:52And they were clear.

00:27:54They, they, they knew that you just wanted to use them for sex and had no interest in

00:27:57their personalities.

00:28:00That's not it, but there's more than that.

00:28:02But yes, everything was clear.

00:28:03There's no deception.

00:28:04I'm, I'm happy to be corrected on sleeping with a woman that you have no intentions of

00:28:09seeing again.

00:28:10Um, wouldn't you tell them again?

00:28:14But like, nevermind.

00:28:18No, no, I want to know.

00:28:19I mean, you know, this is a brave new world of dating that I'm not particularly familiar

00:28:23with.

00:28:24So, uh, is it that you wanted to see them again, but they didn't want to see you again

00:28:28or, or what?

00:28:30I just circumstances make it move on or I find out, um, they're, they're toxic, which

00:28:35was known.

00:28:37Um, it's usually those two things.

00:28:41So, so it's either circumstances or you find out they're toxic.

00:28:45Yes.

00:28:46Okay.

00:28:46So you sleep with the woman before finding out that she's toxic.

00:28:49Or sometimes, yeah, she's toxic, but I'm still going to go for it.

00:28:54Okay.

00:28:54Or there's circumstances wherein, you know, that you're not going to date her.

00:28:58Maybe she's passing through town or something like that, but you still sleep together, right?

00:29:02Yeah.

00:29:03Okay.

00:29:04And the two serious relationships, how did they go?

00:29:08Um, they're, they're complex.

00:29:14So we'll go, I wanted to, um, for the sake of status, get married as soon as possible.

00:29:24Um, so the first one, uh, agreed to, well, they both agreed to get married, um, for the

00:29:34sake of status.

00:29:35And then we'll be together for two years, even though I knew it.

00:29:38Now you've been immigration status, not like social status, right?

00:29:42Yeah.

00:29:42Okay.

00:29:42Got it.

00:29:44Um, for citizenship, it was, it was the main thing.

00:29:47It's like, okay, I have a feeling this isn't going to be the one to spend the rest of my

00:29:52life with, but it it's so worth it.

00:29:56So I'll continue.

00:29:57And she agreed.

00:29:58And that was, um, two of them.

00:30:01Um, that's the quickest way I can put it.

00:30:04And how long were these relationships?

00:30:07Um, for, I think six months each.

00:30:11Okay.

00:30:11And why did they break apart?

00:30:14Oh, they're, they're insane.

00:30:19Okay.

00:30:20Go on.

00:30:21Um, I knew they were kind of wacky going into it, but, um, uh, I'm just trying to parse

00:30:32them out.

00:30:33They are, they can be equated because they're both the same, um, uh, both crazy wild, um,

00:30:41but, uh, agreed to do this for me.

00:30:45And then they went back on their word a few months down the line.

00:30:48Um, and what do you mean by crazy wild?

00:30:53Um, you know, that the type of girl who will, um, maybe party too much once in a while,

00:31:04do something stupid, uh, emotional, um, party girl, but, um, inconsistent.

00:31:16How do I explain it?

00:31:18The characterization works for me.

00:31:21Yeah.

00:31:21I don't think I've ever dated a party girl.

00:31:23I tend to date sort of bookworms.

00:31:25So I don't think I've ever dated a party girl.

00:31:27So do you mean like an addict, like an alcoholic or a drug user or both?

00:31:32Um, in the past?

00:31:34Yes.

00:31:36Um, but not now, but, but drinks like binge drinks.

00:31:38Is that right?

00:31:40Sometimes once in a while.

00:31:41Yeah.

00:31:41What do you mean by once in a while?

00:31:44Like once a month or something.

00:31:46Oh, so once a month, binge drinking.

00:31:48And you said do stupid stuff like what, like drink drive or have an affair or.

00:31:54Um, yeah, that would make sense.

00:31:58I neither.

00:32:00Well, yes.

00:32:03And other than the binge drinking and the bad decisions, what else would you say made them crazy?

00:32:16I'm trying to get this specific.

00:32:19Um, most of the bad decisions, the inconsistency with keeping their word, their integrity.

00:32:30But that was like lying.

00:32:33Um, less lying, more going back on their word.

00:32:39Like that's kind of a lie, right?

00:32:40I'm going to do something and then you don't do it.

00:32:42That means that you were lying when you said you were going to do it.

00:32:45Right.

00:32:46I, I agree, but I do find them different.

00:32:50Okay.

00:32:51Where I've met, I've met people who will, yeah, they make the promise on the spot and

00:32:56they believe they'll follow through with it and then they don't.

00:32:58So are they lying at that at that point?

00:33:00Oh, yeah, absolutely.

00:33:01Yeah.

00:33:01No, they are lying.

00:33:02If, if they know that they have a habit of not following through.

00:33:06Then when they make a commitment, they're lying.

00:33:11Interesting.

00:33:13I mean, you're not talking about a kid here.

00:33:15You're talking about women in their twenties or whatever.

00:33:18So by that time you've learned enough about yourself to know what you can and can't commit

00:33:21to, right?

00:33:24Okay.

00:33:25All right.

00:33:26And that level of wisdom would be a little above their pay grade.

00:33:30So you didn't particularly like or respect these women and it was just for status or

00:33:37how did that go?

00:33:39The combo of intimacy and status.

00:33:41Yes.

00:33:42Uh, so intimacy by that, do you mean emotional or, or mostly sexual?

00:33:47Both.

00:33:47I, I like to just do the whole thing with that integral I'm with.

00:33:54Um, I feel like it's tough to, I mean, I don't really want to keep asking questions because,

00:34:00I mean, maybe because you don't want to give details or whatever, which is fine, but I

00:34:04just feel like it's like pulling teeth a little bit.

00:34:07Sorry about that.

00:34:08No, no, don't have to apologize.

00:34:10I'm just, I'm just pointing out that, uh, it's getting a bit repetitive to ask stuff

00:34:15and then get these sort of very brief answers that don't illuminate much.

00:34:21Okay.

00:34:22So, all right, we'll, we'll move on to something else.

00:34:25Now these two relationships who, who ended?

00:34:32It, it had to be me because they, they went back on their word.

00:34:36About the marriage for the citizenship.

00:34:38Exactly.

00:34:38Okay.

00:34:38Yeah.

00:34:39And that was, sorry, go ahead.

00:34:42That was the main driving factor of why I pursued it so much.

00:34:45And this is something that I've been balancing with, and I don't know how to balance.

00:34:49If I'm presented with an opportunity to go for a marriage agreement like that,

00:34:53even with someone that I don't particularly love and respect all the way I take it.

00:35:00And I think that's the wise thing to do given the circumstance.

00:35:05Do you think so?

00:35:05Uh, I mean, that's, that's a, that's a big, big old complicated question.

00:35:11That's around a lot of state status, uh, status policies and political power and so on.

00:35:16So, uh, I don't know.

00:35:18I mean, obviously if you find someone you love and citizenship comes with a bonus, that's fine.

00:35:23But marrying a woman who knows that you're mostly there for the paperwork is a recipe for disaster.

00:35:33Mm-hmm.

00:35:35Because what, what happened was, well, there's an old movie with Gerard Depardieu,

00:35:39I think called Green Card.

00:35:41And the typical fantasy for women is he gets together with me for one reason,

00:35:48but it turns out he loves me for every reason, right?

00:35:52That's the, there's so many stories about this that, you know, so the typical teen story,

00:36:00I don't mean to insult you by saying it was a teen thing, but the teen thing is like, uh,

00:36:05his friends dared him to go out with me or he lost a bet and had to date me.

00:36:11And then it turns out that he loves me because I'm so fun and cool and great.

00:36:18And then I find out that he only started dating me on a dare or because he lost a bet.

00:36:22And then I'm really upset.

00:36:24And then he professes his love and says, yes, it's true that I only dated you

00:36:28on a dare or because I lost a bet, but it turns out that I love you.

00:36:31Right?

00:36:32So, and this is very common that women who don't feel worthy of a quality man's affections

00:36:40have to explain why he's dating them.

00:36:44And so they're willing to, a lot of women are willing to accept that a guy

00:36:49will date them or sleep with them for not reasons of great moral passion and devotion,

00:36:56but through proximity, you know, this, this guy who's mostly looking for

00:37:02a green card or citizenship, this guy will, will fall in love with me.

00:37:08Like he's only with me for the marriage, but he'll fall in love with me for who I am.

00:37:12And this is sort of a big fantasy that women have.

00:37:15And fundamentally it's about sex, right?

00:37:17I mean, so, you know, he, he just wants to sleep with me, but it turns out that he loves

00:37:25me and he can't live without me.

00:37:27And, and the sexist debate and the hook is her fabulous life and circumstances

00:37:32and personality and virtues.

00:37:34So a lot of women are perfectly content in a way to have a guy around for reasons of not

00:37:44love and devotion.

00:37:45And they believe, and they've been programmed to believe that this will turn into a genuine, deep

00:37:53and passionate love.

00:37:54So I would imagine that for the women, they made this promise to get you around.

00:37:58But then as it turns out, you didn't fall in love with their wonderful,

00:38:01sparkling personalities and virtues.

00:38:04They then became more and more difficult and then went off in search of another guy.

00:38:09They would rope into proximity in the hope that roping someone into proximity would

00:38:13flower into love.

00:38:15That, that, the, um, that has been the timeline for both, for both of those relationships.

00:38:28Yeah.

00:38:28Like it's the 50 shades of gray thing, right?

00:38:30Like, like they put together because she's doing an interview, right?

00:38:34It's not, and then he just falls for her because she works in a hardware store and is thin.

00:38:40It's all completely.

00:38:42Yeah.

00:38:42Right.

00:38:42So, so yeah, there's, isn't there a movie with Goldie Hawn and Kurt Russell called

00:38:46Overboard where, you know, literally women have also this fantasy that, you know,

00:38:51he kidnaps me, but then he falls in love with me.

00:38:54You know, like we're together through some bizarre, coercive situation, you know,

00:38:59we're tied together and we dislike each other, but then we slowly fall for each other.

00:39:02Like, so this idea that proximity will breed a great love is a great fantasy of women.

00:39:09And basically it's implanted by men who want to exploit women by holding out the possibility

00:39:13of love without requiring virtue.

00:39:16And it's also the women's fantasy that they can get love without having to be virtuous,

00:39:20but rather by being sexual or in possession of a legal status that the man is after or

00:39:24something like that.

00:39:26And, or the ability to negotiate contracts about bondage.

00:39:30So yeah, it's, it's, I would imagine that the arc went something like that, but of course,

00:39:35I, I don't know for sure.

00:39:36No, no, you're right.

00:39:39And I guess that that's an important thing.

00:39:42Now that I've kind of unblocked that you've helped me excavate something for the future,

00:39:46that actually been a problem in those two years.

00:39:51I've had a tendency to force love out of women who I know aren't virtuous or I suspect might

00:40:02not be.

00:40:03What do you mean by forced love?

00:40:06Um, in that fantasy sense of attempting to get love or love them or have them love me

00:40:13or create a loving relationship in, in a category of someone I don't find virtuous.

00:40:19And the only person that I know who talks about love with regards to virtue is you.

00:40:26And that, that frustration is like the rest of the people out there.

00:40:30Right, right.

00:40:31No, I mean, I keep saying it and I guess one day people will believe me.

00:40:35That's fine.

00:40:36So, right.

00:40:39So this, of course, remind me of your level of religiosity.

00:40:45Um, atheist like you.

00:40:48Okay.

00:40:49And were you raised religious?

00:40:51Yes, I was raised Catholic.

00:40:52Okay.

00:40:53So of course, in the Christian conception of the world, there's always something to love

00:41:02in someone.

00:41:04Do you know why?

00:41:07Well, uh, there's a lot of why's.

00:41:12Which one do you have in mind?

00:41:13Well, because there is an incorruptible soul within the person that can always be accessed.

00:41:23Yes.

00:41:24So it's kind of like, um, everyone is a fantastic sprinter.

00:41:29Like everyone is Usain Bolt.

00:41:31You just need the right combination of words to unlock those muscles and that lung power.

00:41:37And even if someone has been a smoker for 40 years and is, you know, 300 pounds,

00:41:44if you're the right coach using the right words, by gosh, you can unlock

00:41:50the fastest sprinter in the world within that person.

00:41:53That there is a, a ghost of perfection inside the body of corruption.

00:42:01And so this idea that, you know, that some people, the secularists call it the real me.

00:42:06Like once he sees the real me, right, then he'll, he'll love me.

00:42:09Right.

00:42:10And unfortunately for people who are not that way inclined to put it mildly,

00:42:18then there is no soul in the person we can love.

00:42:21There are only empirical actions.

00:42:24The intentions don't count much.

00:42:26And in particular, if the intentions don't lead to virtue, but instead are used

00:42:31for purposes of corruption.

00:42:32And so, you know, I intend to stop drinking, but you don't stop drinking and you loop someone in,

00:42:37you sort of lure someone into this disastrous life because you say, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:42:41I'm going to quit.

00:42:42That's my intention.

00:42:43But the intention is used simply to draw that person in.

00:42:46So, uh, if intentions are used in this corrupt manner, uh, then it's even worse.

00:42:51Then it's even worse.

00:42:53So fundamentally the heart is an organ of the body and the body is empirical.

00:42:59There's no imaginary food that you can eat that is going to fill your body, right?

00:43:04You, if you're really hungry, then you dream of a buffet, but you don't wake up full, right?

00:43:09You're still hungry.

00:43:11So the body is relentlessly empirical, but the mind can create all kinds of imaginary fantasies.

00:43:17And so a lot of times the attachment is something generated in the mind rather than

00:43:22empirical in the actions of another.

00:43:26So if somebody says, I'm going to show up at 10 o'clock in the morning,

00:43:29if they show up at 10 o'clock in the morning, that's empirically verifiable, right?

00:43:34If they show up at noon with no excuses and no apologies, that's also empirically verifiable.

00:43:40If they make commitments and don't follow through on them, that is empirically verifiable.

00:43:44So in the world of philosophy, there is nothing to love but actions.

00:43:53Now in the realm of theology though, there's a perfect soul in the body that we can love

00:43:59despite actions.

00:44:00And we just need to reach through that maze of actions to grab the perfect heart and the

00:44:05perfect soul and the perfect virtue deep within.

00:44:09And that process of, I don't know, picking the lock or diffusing the bomb or reaching

00:44:15through the maze is something that's very seductive.

00:44:18And it's hard to shake that mindset that there's a perfect person somewhere in there.

00:44:22We just need to figure out how to access it.

00:44:25But as I sort of said before on the show, if you've been a smoker for 40 years

00:44:32and you get some horrible lung disease

00:44:36and you go to the oncologist or you go to the doctor, the doctor doesn't say,

00:44:40well, we could treat this horrible lung disease, but I think what we'd rather do is pray that

00:44:45your emergency ghost backup lungs take the place of your actual physical real lungs.

00:44:51There's no emergency backup perfect lungs.

00:44:54There is only what you have done in the world.

00:44:58Right?

00:44:58I mean, what is it the old saying about dieting?

00:45:02In every fat woman, there's a skinny woman trying to get out.

00:45:08And what is it?

00:45:08Some obese comedian woman said, there's no skinny woman within me.

00:45:15I ate the bitch.

00:45:17So there is no perfect person in there that we can access outside of their

00:45:28empirical actions.

00:45:30We can only love empiricism.

00:45:31We can only fantasize about ideals.

00:45:35And so my guess is that you hoped, and this may be raised based on your upbringing,

00:45:40but you hoped that you could get through to some perfect person within there.

00:45:43And you just need to find a way to unlock it with inspiration or action or,

00:45:48you know, hope is the secular form of prayer, right?

00:45:52Except it doesn't connect to anything divine or certain.

00:45:56And therefore it remains weak and susceptible to manipulation.

00:46:01So my guess is that in these women, you hoped to find

00:46:10a better person in the messy maze of their actions and love that perfect person.

00:46:18And then the realization probably grew over both of you

00:46:22that there is no ghost in the machinery of empiricism that we can only love

00:46:29actions in the same way that our body can only be fed by real things.

00:46:32We can only drink real water.

00:46:35You know, when people are dying of cold, according to all reports,

00:46:40like they get lost in some mountain climb and they're dying of cold,

00:46:44they feel extremely warm and comfortable.

00:46:48But they're not, right?

00:46:49They're dying.

00:46:50So their body is trying to give them some comfort on the exit scenario.

00:46:54So my guess is that you both dreamed of a perfect

00:46:58person in the other that could be unlocked with the right combination of

00:47:02love or language or devotion or money or circumstances or something like that.

00:47:06And then because you were only miming eating, you slowly starved to death and had to break up.

00:47:12Uh, this, this, uh, this illuminates my view and how I approach it a lot.

00:47:25Yeah.

00:47:26Good.

00:47:28I knew if we were patient, we'd get someplace useful.

00:47:31Okay.

00:47:32So is there something that you wanted to add to that?

00:47:35Because I did want to turn to the regret side.

00:47:37Um, two, two thoughts came up while, while you were talking, um,

00:47:46one, I realized I do the same thing, this, this, um,

00:47:51hopeful thing or related to the future to myself.

00:47:55Um, so I will like ignore my actions or what I've done and just instead focus on what will be.

00:48:03Um, so kind of like a, uh, not real thing,

00:48:07not a non-empirical, so that might give me blind spots to myself.

00:48:12Yes, yes, yes.

00:48:14And then, and of course, if we believe in the perfect ghost within another,

00:48:18we also believe in the perfect ghost within ourselves, which means we're less,

00:48:22we're less strict with our own empirical actions, right?

00:48:24I mean, it's tough to quit smoking.

00:48:26If you believe you have perfect imaginary backup soul lungs that can take the place

00:48:30of your diseased lungs, it's a lot tougher to quit.

00:48:32Whereas if you just say the physical lungs are the only lungs I have,

00:48:36and the physical virtues are the only virtues I possess, right?

00:48:39I mean, it's fine to have knowledge.

00:48:41You have to have knowledge in order to be good, but if you don't act on it,

00:48:44then you're like the guy stuffing his face with cheesecake while reading a diet book.

00:48:48You may know everything about dieting,

00:48:50but if you don't actually put down the cheesecake, uh, it's worse than useless, right?

00:48:54Yeah. So, ooh, okay. That, that one hit a little close to home.

00:48:58And why is that?

00:48:59The, the, uh, I, I have like a lot of knowledge on, on virtue and like what a good relationship

00:49:07could be, but I just don't do it.

00:49:11Well, yeah. So, I mean, I, I, I questioned the grand love if you're banging a dozen other women

00:49:17after you break up with the grand love.

00:49:19I don't, in my opinion, because I, I, I think they're, they, they're unrelated.

00:49:24Like the, the, um, the way that you move on or the actions you do with women who are more shallow,

00:49:30I don't think it impacts the deep love that you have with other women.

00:49:35So you think that promiscuity doesn't affect pair bonding?

00:49:42I, I, I don't think it impacts the deep love that you have with other women.

00:49:46I, I, I can be open to convincing, but I don't think it affects it on the man,

00:49:55men's side. And I'm skeptical on the women's side as well.

00:49:59Well, no, the women's side, the data is pretty, is very clear.

00:50:02Yeah.

00:50:03Yeah. Divorce is a ridiculous dependent, right? So the more, um, the more boyfriends, uh, the

00:50:08more lovers a woman has, the more likely she is to divorce, the more likely she is to not,

00:50:13not pair bond in, in a sort of foundational way.

00:50:16Mm-hmm. But with men it's, it's not, it's not a correlator or strong at all, isn't it?

00:50:22Well, I don't know. I don't, I don't think the studies have been done,

00:50:24at least not that I've seen. And so I, I don't know. I mean, I do think that men in general

00:50:30are sort of hardwired to be less harmed by promiscuity because we don't have nearly as

00:50:38much investment in the sexual pregnancy and birth process, right? So a man can do a spray and pray.

00:50:44And I think he's a little less damaged by it, which is not to say undamaged, but less, I think

00:50:50a case could be made sort of evolutionary biologically, biologically that a man can

00:50:55survive promiscuity better than a woman can. But I think your perspective, and I don't want to speak

00:51:07for you, but I'm guessing that your perspective is something like this, correct me, of course,

00:51:10if I'm wrong, but it's something like, well, I don't get a great meal, but a man's got to eat.

00:51:16So I'll just eat some fast food. That, that's, that is my perspective. I try to make it a little

00:51:23more holier than thou, like to make it sound better, but that's, that's the baseline of it.

00:51:28Yes. Right. And I'm aware of that. I'm aware of it when it's happening and I don't know the wisdom

00:51:33of it. And I am curious whether I should just go full stop and embrace it more. I don't know

00:51:39which direction to go. Well, but you were doing more than sleeping around because you were,

00:51:44you know, fairly desperately trying to marry two messed up women, right?

00:51:49Yes. So that would have eliminated the woman of your dreams, right?

00:51:58I mean, from eliminated from your potential, right? I mean, you get married to some woman,

00:52:03then you're not getting back together with your ex, are you?

00:52:06I don't know. It was still in the plan because after a few years, you divorce

00:52:10and I go back to her. That was the plan.

00:52:13Okay. So, I mean,

00:52:15you know that the authorities are perfectly aware of marriages of convenience, right?

00:52:20I know. And I'm also aware of how often they work and how many people do it. It's kind of insane.

00:52:26Okay. So you would get married and you would, and were the women aware that you would marry

00:52:33them in order to divorce them? Oh, yeah. It was, everything was clear up front. There was no

00:52:37deception. There's like a whole understanding, whole agreement, timelines. So why would they do

00:52:44it? Why would they do it? That's actually a good question. I mean, they're burning up a half decade

00:52:53of their fertility years for what? To get divorced? The first one, she was older,

00:53:01widowed. That was fine. How much older?

00:53:07A lot. Was she in her 50s? 40s?

00:53:12Maybe? Yes.

00:53:14She was in her 50s? Yep.

00:53:17Okay. So you in your robust 20s was going to marry a woman 30 years older and get some sort of

00:53:26status from her, and then you would divorce her and she would get a couple of years

00:53:31with a young man, right? Yes.

00:53:35Okay. And what about the other woman?

00:53:43She was younger. Because of that, I was aware, like 20.

00:53:49Sorry, not younger than you or younger than the 50 plus woman?

00:53:53Younger than the 50 plus woman. Okay, but how much? Was she still much older than you?

00:54:00No, just a little bit. Like late 20s, early 30s. This one, I was aware of that and I gave her

00:54:12the option of, if we're doing this for these two years, keep looking because I'm not going to do

00:54:21it. But if you find someone, just keep that on the front burner. I don't know how to word it.

00:54:29Okay. I get it. I get it. But still, why would she do it?

00:54:33That one was because she really liked me.

00:54:35Okay. So she was hoping you would fall in love with her if you're around for the

00:54:39immigration reasons. Yeah. And I think she said that directly too. Yeah.

00:54:43Okay. And what was your perception on that?

00:54:47Um, it more of the, um, the Hopi perfect soul love thingy, where I was like,

00:54:54well, if that would happen, that would be so convenient. I'm going to try to make that happen.

00:54:58Um, but the perspective now it's a business deal to two years, blah, blah, blah.

00:55:04So you were both hoping to fall in love?

00:55:07Um, yes, but that wasn't the primary, uh, goal of it.

00:55:12It was, what's the primary goal? What's in it for her?

00:55:16That's the thing I kept telling her. It's like, what's in it for you? It's like

00:55:21me, I guess you get my comparison.

00:55:22Okay. So she was hoping you would fall in love with her.

00:55:27Huh? Yeah. Maybe more than I thought. Yeah.

00:55:30Well, I mean, I, I mean, I can't imagine why she would do it otherwise.

00:55:36Well, yeah, she really liked me and I liked her too.

00:55:40Okay. And what was it that do you think, uh, what was it about her actions

00:55:44that prevented you from falling in love with her?

00:55:48Oh, she, um, she was, she was irrational, um, drank too much,

00:55:55um, had a bad family, but wasn't aware of it. Um, uh, what's it called?

00:56:04No deep virtues to speak of.

00:56:06What was she irrational about?

00:56:08Um, sometimes I would guess schizophrenic a few times, um,

00:56:13like hearing or seeing things that weren't there.

00:56:16Oh, so she had, uh, hallucinations.

00:56:20Yes, I think so. I never confirmed it, but it was like, yeah, she would.

00:56:25What do you mean? You think so? Give me a, give me a snapshot.

00:56:28Um, so it'd be up in the middle of the night and she'd be like, what's that? Did you hear that?

00:56:34And it's like, no, I didn't hear anything.

00:56:36Um, so it's like, yeah, maybe she heard something, but so I get like, no, a hundred percent crazy,

00:56:41like a hundred percent hallucination. Um, but most likely as to the point where I say, yeah.

00:56:51Am I being too, too soft?

00:56:55I, I, I'm not in a position to judge. I just, that yet, I just want to sort of understand.

00:57:00I just want to sort of understand. So you were with this woman who drank too much

00:57:06and hallucinated, but you were hoping that she, you, you would fall in love with her.

00:57:11It would, it would be yes, but not, not, not, uh, betting on it. I'm a, I'm a probabilities

00:57:17gambling man. Um, if there's like a 10% chance this happens, I I'm very happy for that.

00:57:23No, but there's a 0% chance that happens. I mean, how long have you been listening to what I do?

00:57:27A long, long, long time.

00:57:31And do you disagree with the argument that love is our involuntary response to virtue?

00:57:36If a virtuous, I, uh, I agree with it, but more on the hope,

00:57:43cause I still don't understand it at a deep level.

00:57:46What don't you?

00:57:48I, I, I can't explain it to myself or someone why that is necessarily love even through the

00:57:54argument. Um, I still am of the belief that you can love as an act or just get a feeling of love,

00:58:01even from someone that isn't virtuous. Um, but that might be my lack of understanding

00:58:08of love in the first place.

00:58:10Well, I mean, it also really depends on your definition of love. You can certainly have lust

00:58:14for people who aren't virtuous. You can have a biochemical care bonding, a pair of bonding

00:58:20based upon sexual, sexual proximity with people who aren't, uh, virtuous, but, you know,

00:58:26biochemical bonding and lust, uh, they're not love. Right. So, I mean, a woman, a woman has a,

00:58:36and a man too, when you become a father, you have, uh, an incredible, beautiful,

00:58:42wonderful bond with your baby, but not because your baby is virtuous. That's just nature saying,

00:58:46don't leave them in the snow drift. Right.

00:58:48Okay.

00:58:50Now that's not the same as love. That's a kind of attachment because it's also shared by countless

00:58:54animals and birds and so on. Right. And it's not a bad thing. It's a wonderful thing, but nobody's

00:59:00going to say that that's in the same category as romantic love because that would be creepy AF.

00:59:04Right. So, so, uh, love is, uh, love has to be a response to something that is higher and better.

00:59:14Right. Yes.

00:59:16Now, is there anything higher or better than virtue?

00:59:23No. So if our, if love is a response to something higher and better and there's nothing higher or

00:59:30better than virtue, then love that is the greatest and deepest must be a response to virtue.

00:59:37Mm-hmm. I, to, to circle back in something that comes to mind, it's like, if, if I just perceive

00:59:45it's in everyone, uh, I just need to dig through it and like get it out or inspire it out.

00:59:49Well, that's the soul thing, right? Yeah. That there's a, there's a perfect person in there

00:59:53who's wonderfully virtuous and they don't need to train like, you know, but, but that

00:59:58destroys the, the, the, one of the problems I have is that that destroys the concept of

01:00:03a virtue. It's so, uh, virtue is study and practice, right? So if, if I want to learn how

01:00:12to play piano very well, like really well, if I want to learn how to play piano and I have two

01:00:17approaches, right? So one is I just do my scales. I, I learn and it's going to take years and it's

01:00:23going to be difficult and, and so on. Right. Then I'm, but, but, you know, at the end of that,

01:00:26I'll play piano. Well, right. Yeah. But if I believe that there's already a perfect piano

01:00:34player within me, I just need to find a way to access it. Then I'm going to not do all of that

01:00:39hard work. Why would I, you know, if you, if in your house, you have a desperate need for a very

01:00:49hard to get cable and you're absolutely certain it's in a box in the basement, you don't go and

01:00:53order it because it's very expensive and will take forever. You look in the basement, right?

01:00:57Because you already have it. Whereas if you know for sure you don't have this hard to get cable,

01:01:02you'll order it. Right. So if we think we're already in possession of excellence and we

01:01:07just need to find a way to unlock it, then we don't study and, and take the,

01:01:17the hard road to virtue. Does that make sense?

01:01:20That doesn't make sense. Okay. That, that I was something that I've come to mind is like the

01:01:27absence of evil is enough for virtue. That's something that I've usually gone forward with.

01:01:34I understand there's the active virtues, but I've always found that bottom line to be my starting

01:01:39point for where virtue is. The absence of evil is the presence of virtue.

01:01:44The presence of virtue? Yes.

01:01:49Okay. So how would you define evil?

01:01:55Evil is the, is I find it more easier to define. It's when you, you, you just violate morality.

01:02:03You, you, you, you assault, you lie, you steal. Straightforward UPB.

01:02:09Okay. So UPB doesn't necessarily involve lying. That's more APA,

01:02:14but let's, let's go with your definition that lying, lying is immoral, right?

01:02:20Okay. Wait, sorry. You're saying, okay, like I'm forcing you. I'm just trying to

01:02:26your argument. Fraud, which fraud is theft and lying is fraud. That's my chain of reasoning to

01:02:37why am I, this is why you resisted it. When I said that the women who broke their word to you

01:02:42consistently were liars.

01:02:48Oh, okay. Now I understand. Cause I was like, remember, and you're like, well, no,

01:02:52no. Right. Because if you say that the absence of virtue, the absence of evil is the presence of

01:02:56virtue and it's immoral to lie. Then if I say these women lie, then you lose that excuse,

01:03:05right? Because then they're immoral and then they're not virtuous.

01:03:11And therefore it was completely predictable that you wouldn't fall in love with them.

01:03:18Okay. Yes. But the conclusion, I still put out hope that you can counter people who don't have

01:03:26virtue or are evil and bring it out of them. But I'm trying to do that.

01:03:33No, absolutely. Listen, of course you can. I mean, I did it with myself. I do it with

01:03:37listeners and so on. Right. In terms of like, so absolutely. So if somebody doesn't know piano,

01:03:44they can learn piano, but what do they have to do?

01:03:50Put in the work.

01:03:51Yeah. They have to learn piano. They have to commit to learning piano and they have to actually

01:03:56do the scales. They have to learn how to read music. Ideally, they have to do like all kinds

01:04:00of stuff to play piano, right? Otherwise they're not playing piano. Like if they just say I want

01:04:07to, but they don't practice, then they don't learn anything. If all they do is watch videos,

01:04:11then they don't practice, then they don't get the muscle memory and all of that. Right? So

01:04:16of course, yes, we can teach virtue. Absolutely. But somebody has to, first of all,

01:04:19recognize that they're deficient in virtue and then they have to recognize the value of virtue

01:04:23and then they have to do the empirically verifiable hard work of learning and

01:04:27enacting virtue. Right? Right. And did the women admit that they had morality or integrity problems?

01:04:37Yes, enough that... Sorry, go ahead. Go ahead. Enough that it gave me that aspect of this

01:04:44isn't a complete dead end. The way I approach it, if someone makes any progress in that regard,

01:04:51so for specifics, it's like someone's drinking too much. It's like, okay, I'm going to stop

01:04:57drinking. So they slow down drinking significantly. That happened in the second relationship

01:05:08or just any signs of that improvement towards that stated goal.

01:05:13Sorry, the big virtue that you're supposed to fall in love with is

01:05:17somebody who cuts down on binge drinking?

01:05:20No. I mean, come on, man. That's a pretty thing to live on.

01:05:25I know. I'm trying to use this time to excavate why I was being so hopeful in those relationships

01:05:35besides the status benefit. And this has been enlightening.

01:05:42Okay. So if you're lying to yourself about why you're in a relationship, now, if you say,

01:05:47well, these women are unpleasant and they're not moral, but I'll do this. I mean, I guess

01:05:53it would officially be classified as a fraud or whatever, right? So I'll do this marriage

01:05:58of convenience. I don't like the person. She's in her fifties or whatever. I guess the other

01:06:04woman was not. But if you say, no, no, I'm holding out for wonderful virtues from a woman who's

01:06:13struggling to cut down her binge drinking, right? So who's lying then?

01:06:20Well, this is definitely the first one with a chance of the second one.

01:06:26Who else is lying?

01:06:28Who else is lying?

01:06:30You're saying it's zero percent?

01:06:34Yeah.

01:06:36If you believe that love is our involuntary response to virtue, if we're virtuous,

01:06:42and you also say that lying is immoral, then women who lie are immoral. And let's say they

01:06:49cut down on their lying a little bit. That's not enough.

01:06:54Okay.

01:06:56Right. They actually have to have a commitment to truth. And they have to do the hard and

01:07:01difficult work of figuring out their barriers to truth and overcoming them and all that, right?

01:07:05Right.

01:07:06So if they're not doing that, like if a woman is gaining weight because she's eating 5,000

01:07:13calories a day, right? And you want her to be slender and you kind of nag her and shame her

01:07:20into cutting down from 5,000 to 4,000 calories a day, is she going to end up slender?

01:07:27It's progress.

01:07:28No, it's only progress if it keeps going.

01:07:34Of course, to cut down to a healthy meal size, you have to cross the 4,000 calorie barrier,

01:07:41right? But if that's where it stops, then she's not going to become slender.

01:07:48Right.

01:07:50And she's not committed to becoming slender because she stops at 4,000 calories. She is

01:07:55responding to you nagging and maybe she wants to keep you around and she's showing some progress,

01:08:00but she's only going to gain weight slower.

01:08:06Okay. That point you made, I think I fall victim to that often. I never thought about that.

01:08:12Sorry, what you fall victim to?

01:08:15I'm going to show them a bit of progress just to keep them around. Okay. I see a pattern there.

01:08:21Right. And this is not something you don't know, right?

01:08:26A woman cutting down on binge drinking does not make her someone you can love.

01:08:31I know.

01:08:32So, you hanging around and hoping is a form of lying to yourself.

01:08:46I see. Yeah.

01:08:48And it is a form of fraud, not in the legal sense.

01:08:52But if you say to a woman, there's a chance I can love you,

01:09:00then you have to say that to yourself first. There is a chance I can love her

01:09:08when all she's doing is cutting down on her corruption somewhat, which means you'll dislike

01:09:14her less. But that doesn't mean that you will love her. But if you say to yourself and to her,

01:09:28I'm around because I could magically fall in love despite

01:09:33the empirical actions of corruption, and less corruption is not virtue.

01:09:38Now, again, a corrupt person to become virtuous has to pass through

01:09:42less corruption. But if a woman just basically cuts back on corruption because corruption is

01:09:48inefficient, yeah, you know, I'm drinking too much, it's too expensive, I hate the hangovers,

01:09:51and I make bad decisions, then that's just practical consequences. It's not virtue.

01:09:57Okay.

01:10:02So, why did she cut back on the drinking? Just because it was expensive and inconvenient,

01:10:05and you didn't like it, and she didn't like the hangovers?

01:10:11You're right, out of convenience. I think you're right.

01:10:15Okay. So, somebody who cuts back on corruption out of convenience is like the guy in the store,

01:10:25he's like, he's going to steal, and he actually does steal, and then he sees that there's a

01:10:30security camera, and he puts the thing back, right? Hey, look, he didn't steal. He's a good guy.

01:10:37No, that's just consequentialism, right? He just couldn't get away with it.

01:10:41Okay.

01:10:44And it is true that some addicts or binge drinkers cut back as they get older,

01:10:48because their bodies can't handle it as much.

01:10:53But that's not the same as figuring out why you drink, and figuring out the trauma that

01:10:59drives the drinking, and dealing with that, which means having difficult conversations

01:11:02with the people who raised you, and then saying, oh man, the people who are around who I drink with

01:11:08are really not very good people at all, and I've got to get to a better place.

01:11:13None of that happens if you just cut back on drinking, right? You're just

01:11:16avoiding that sort of self-knowledge.

01:11:30Now, if you hadn't lied to yourself about your capacity to love these women,

01:11:36would you have been able to have or continue the relationships?

01:11:41If I hadn't lied, yes. The reason being is, even going full-on, there's a 0% chance this

01:11:51could be anything genuine love. Still do it for the status.

01:11:58So that's just erasing the woman, though, right? Because

01:12:02if you had told the woman who was in her 20s that you found her fairly gross,

01:12:09and repulsive, and corrupt, and would never fall in love with her,

01:12:15would she have offered you the marriage of convenience anyway?

01:12:20Ah, good point. Probably not.

01:12:22Well, no. I mean, unless she was masochistic.

01:12:26Which she was.

01:12:28She was masochistic.

01:12:29She was masochistic.

01:12:30Yeah.

01:12:31Why did you say that?

01:12:36Well, sorry, I was making a BDSM joke.

01:12:47Sorry, I didn't quite catch that.

01:12:49I was making a joke.

01:12:51Oh, because she was dating you? She was masochistic, or something like that?

01:12:54Yeah, that was the point.

01:12:56I understand. Sometimes in jokes, okay, never mind. We understand.

01:13:00I was trying to make it serious, but no.

01:13:03Yeah, yeah. Got it. Okay. So, in your girlfriend, sorry, the woman who died,

01:13:13what were the virtues that you most admired in her?

01:13:17Um, the one, the respect for virtue, the diligence, honesty, integrity,

01:13:27putting truth above all else,

01:13:34mostly aesthetic, like the love of life, the curiosity, the emotional stability.

01:13:42The, should I keep going? A lot of them I feel are aesthetic, but the ones that mattered was,

01:13:48she added these.

01:13:49Sounds like a, so, and what were the virtues in you that she most admired?

01:13:57Um, similar, the integrity, the respect for virtue, the...

01:14:02Respect for virtue? I thought we just, like, please, please reply with the awareness that

01:14:09we've just been talking about this in great detail for 45 minutes.

01:14:16Well, this is before.

01:14:21Before our conversation, or before what?

01:14:24Um, before I went down this path.

01:14:28Of, like, sleeping with a dozen women?

01:14:31Yeah.

01:14:31And then having relationships with the 50-year-old-plus woman, and then the

01:14:36crazy woman you kind of promised to fall in love with?

01:14:39Yeah.

01:14:40Okay. So, if the woman who died had known about all of this,

01:14:47tell me the virtues that she would have most admired in you.

01:14:50Oh, she knew all about them.

01:14:54And she was like...

01:14:56Well, she didn't know all about them because you didn't know all about them until this

01:14:59conversation, right?

01:15:02Uh, well, yeah, the things, the things we're discovering here.

01:15:06But the things that I knew, she knew as well.

01:15:08All right. So, she knew that you were dangling love over a woman that you couldn't love in

01:15:12order to get a marriage?

01:15:16Or did she believe that you could love a woman who was corrupt in this and lying?

01:15:22Um, the first one, yes. The second one, no.

01:15:29Okay.

01:15:30Okay. And she felt that this was morally good for you to be pursuing this path?

01:15:39Um, the idea of, yeah, get the status.

01:15:47No, no, I get that. But the lying to yourself about it?

01:15:55See, that I wasn't aware of.

01:15:57Well, wouldn't she, wouldn't she ask you about that?

01:16:04Maybe this is my, my key, um, I'm, I'm getting it as we're talking.

01:16:09But my key thing is, if I see it like a percent chance, I don't see it as a full lie.

01:16:15And if I, if I see it as 10%, then it's like possible.

01:16:18Um, you're convincing me it's zero.

01:16:20But in my view, if it's small, then it's there.

01:16:24Does that make sense?

01:16:24Okay. So for you, virtue is based on probability?

01:16:32Um, if they're not virtuous yet, yes.

01:16:37Well, no, because then, then the guy who steals when he can get away with it is virtuous,

01:16:42because he's got a 0% chance of being caught, or a very low percent chance,

01:16:46whereas the guy who sees the security camera and puts the stuff back.

01:16:49So, if morality is, is playing the odds and weighing percentage, then your,

01:16:56quote, moral decisions are based upon circumstances and probabilities, not integrity and principles.

01:17:06In, in the specific chance of, can you love that person in the future, if they become virtuous?

01:17:13Um, I, no, not, morality is not percentage based, like you said.

01:17:18Um, but that, that was the framework I've been operating on.

01:17:25Um, talking through it, it's like, whoops, got to change that.

01:17:30Okay, got it. So, so she knew that you had slept with

01:17:36a dozen women in the two to three years since you had gone out?

01:17:40Yes.

01:17:40Okay. And did she consider that at all negative?

01:17:44No, she considered it positive.

01:17:46She considered your promiscuity positive?

01:17:48And what was her thoughts or reasoning behind considering your promiscuity positive?

01:17:54Um, when I, when we were together, she did not know if I was so deeply attached to her because

01:18:01of her virtues, or because of me being so inexperienced. So her understanding that it

01:18:07was because of, um, her choice, um, gave her that kind of, oh, yeah, it was, um,

01:18:16it was because of me. Does that make sense? But that was her reasoning.

01:18:20So, sorry, if I, if I understand this correctly,

01:18:23she knew that you loved her because you slept with other women?

01:18:30She felt it was more significant, yes.

01:18:33So, does this seem normal or healthy to you for the love of your life to say,

01:18:40well, now that you've banged a dozen chicks, I know that you love me?

01:18:49Does this, I mean, I don't know if this argument from absurdity is going to take root,

01:18:53but does that seem normal, natural, healthy, good?

01:18:57I get it, if that makes any sense. It sounds stupid, but it's like,

01:19:04are you sure if this person loves you or not if they've never experienced love before?

01:19:10Um, and it's like, oh, no, it actually was.

01:19:13But you didn't experience love by banging 12 chicks?

01:19:16That, that, that's what I realized, yes.

01:19:18No, no, but she would know that, right?

01:19:22I don't know if you love me unless you have a lot of meaningless

01:19:26promiscuous sex.

01:19:28Come on, man, like, you can't defend this position.

01:19:31Let's, let's cut to the chase here, right?

01:19:35It's funny because I get the, I get the wisdom.

01:19:37I think it's stupid, but that, that's the position.

01:19:40Right. Okay.

01:19:42All right.

01:19:44Now, is there anything that you, you said 10% regret when we were talking earlier,

01:19:50like 90% last 10% regret.

01:19:51So, tell me a bit about the regret.

01:19:52Um, it, the, the, it's the idea of my, on my mind of, I could have tried harder.

01:20:02Um, um, I could have done it earlier.

01:20:08Um, and that, those are like the two main, uh, sentences of regret that pop up.

01:20:16Uh, while in the relationship, um, it was there more than I could have done.

01:20:21Uh, and, um, out of the relationship is, could I have gone faster?

01:20:26Or could I have moved more?

01:20:29Um, uh, what's it called?

01:20:33Accurate, not accurately, more decisively or made things happen more faster.

01:20:39Um, the, the, the, the whole goal was to wait until after school to try again, that,

01:20:45that was the intent.

01:20:47Um, but the regret is what if I had done it earlier with things changed?

01:20:51Those are the main sources, if that makes sense.

01:20:55Okay.

01:20:55So, but you didn't try to get back together for the last couple of years.

01:20:59You were just hoping that it would happen after school was done, right?

01:21:03Um, correct to the first part.

01:21:10So when you say I could have tried harder, my understanding is, and obviously correct

01:21:14me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is you didn't try, you were waiting.

01:21:19Yeah.

01:21:20Okay.

01:21:20So it's not trying harder.

01:21:21It's try at all.

01:21:25Yeah.

01:21:26I mean, if I say I could have tried harder and benched 220 pounds, when it turns out

01:21:32I didn't even go to the gym, then it's not, if I tried harder, it's like, but I didn't

01:21:38try at all because I didn't even go to the gym.

01:21:40Does that sort of make sense?

01:21:42It makes sense.

01:21:42Okay.

01:21:43So, so why would you phrase it as trying harder when it was not trying at all, which

01:21:48is pretty obvious, right?

01:21:50Um, to make it happen earlier.

01:21:53Yeah.

01:21:54That would be the different key.

01:21:56No, because you're trying to, I mean, this is lying to yourself a little bit, I think.

01:22:02Okay.

01:22:05Because it's easier to say I should have tried harder than to say I didn't try at all.

01:22:17Okay.

01:22:20Okay.

01:22:24Right.

01:22:24One is a difference of degree.

01:22:25The other is a difference of kind.

01:22:29Like if I'm having trouble getting a girlfriend and I say, I should have asked out more women

01:22:35when it turns out I haven't asked out any women.

01:22:37Why would I rephrase it as I should have asked out more women?

01:22:41Because then I get to say, well, I tried, I guess I just didn't try hard enough.

01:22:45Whereas you didn't act to get her back until you hoped that this would be the case somewhat

01:22:51shortly.

01:22:52Right?

01:22:57Yes.

01:22:57I suppose the thing I'm countering back on is the hope.

01:23:01It's like, no, that was the, that was the point of action.

01:23:05No, but that's not, that's not, hope is not trying and I've, I've no problem with hope.

01:23:11I've no problem with hope.

01:23:12I get that.

01:23:12But I just, I just want you to be accurate because your grief will go longer the less

01:23:17accurate you are.

01:23:20Okay, good.

01:23:21Thank you.

01:23:23So if you want to overcome grief, grief is there to teach us a lesson, right?

01:23:27The regret part of grief, right?

01:23:29So the regret part of grief is there to teach us a lesson.

01:23:32And if we don't learn that lesson, the grief doesn't let hold of us.

01:23:34Right?

01:23:35Okay.

01:23:36Yeah.

01:23:37Right?

01:23:38If you keep getting a nagging pain in your shoulder when you lift weights, the nagging

01:23:42pain is there to say you're doing it wrong.

01:23:44And if you don't change what you're doing, the nagging pain will only continue, right?

01:23:51So let's go back to the regret.

01:23:53What is the regret?

01:23:54It's not about trying.

01:23:56You say, I wish I'd tried harder because you didn't try and you were waiting to try.

01:24:04Okay.

01:24:05Okay, so let's get back to some accurate stuff about what you regret.

01:24:09So let's try it again.

01:24:11Yeah.

01:24:20That inside I'm waffling back and forth whether the idea of...

01:24:32Sorry, I'm like waffling internally.

01:24:35And the idea of just the relationship was over, leave it be, continue onwards and leave

01:24:47it open for a chance to reconsider versus consistently try to make it happen again.

01:24:54Um, I'm wondering if the ideas of just leave it, relationship over, no hope, you continue,

01:25:05move on.

01:25:05I never picked that one.

01:25:07I picked the it's over, move on.

01:25:09But if an opportunity presents itself, rekindle it.

01:25:14That's what I was operating on.

01:25:16And so what does it mean when you say an opportunity presents itself?

01:25:20Because I'm never sure what that means.

01:25:24To people like, you know, when I, when I wanted to start a business, I had to go out and help

01:25:28raise the 80,000 it took to start and hire people.

01:25:31And I had to make it happen when I wanted to.

01:25:33I didn't like when a philosophy show became possible, I had to work to build it and grow it.

01:25:39So I'm not sure what it means.

01:25:41And there may be good answers.

01:25:42Of course.

01:25:43I'm just not sure what it means to say, I was waiting for an opportunity to present itself.

01:25:48Okay.

01:25:49The good answer is like, come over, let's see each other.

01:25:54All right, I can come.

01:25:56Oh, so she would say, let's see each other, let's rekindle.

01:25:59No, me.

01:26:00Oh, you would say it.

01:26:01Okay.

01:26:01So that's not an opportunity presenting itself.

01:26:03That's you making a play.

01:26:08Yes, but it's more, it's more passive.

01:26:10I always come to the blah, blah, blah.

01:26:12That's hard to do.

01:26:13I don't want to say it's like, I made a solid play.

01:26:19Here you go.

01:26:20If that's when it's happening, it was more just like, yeah, come visit.

01:26:22And that's the opportunity.

01:26:24Does that make sense?

01:26:25And how did you see that playing out?

01:26:27Like, I assume you wanted her back, right?

01:26:30Yeah.

01:26:30Okay.

01:26:31So how did you see it playing out when she came to visit?

01:26:38Talk about how we changed, what's different.

01:26:43And then be like, all right, I made it.

01:26:48I'm stable.

01:26:49I fixed it.

01:26:49I'm a, I'm a different person.

01:26:51Come, let's try it again.

01:26:53And then I've slept with girls.

01:26:55I'm ready.

01:26:56Yeah, I'm ready.

01:26:57Yep.

01:26:58And she would have been good job.

01:27:01I slept with the woman who hallucinated.

01:27:02I'm ready.

01:27:04Yep.

01:27:04I slept with the woman in her fifties.

01:27:06I'm ready.

01:27:09And you met that one.

01:27:10You felt, oh, she met, she met her.

01:27:12Yeah.

01:27:12Oh my gosh.

01:27:13This new world is wild to me.

01:27:16Look, it gets worse.

01:27:19The more detailed we begin to go on, I don't, I don't know how to, where to go, but yeah.

01:27:27I'll go general first.

01:27:29So to be productive, then I'll go details for silliness and maybe productivity.

01:27:34Generally trying to do anything in the dating relationships that I've dealt with.

01:27:41And this world in person is a complete wild West degenerate disaster.

01:27:50To the point where if I didn't take the boat degeneracy route,

01:27:55there would have been zero candidates whatsoever.

01:27:58That would catch my eye.

01:28:00Yeah.

01:28:01No, that's, that's, that's just, look, dude, dude, that's just, no, that's just satanic.

01:28:05That's just straight up Satanism.

01:28:06Sorry.

01:28:08That just is.

01:28:09No.

01:28:09So, so you're saying that you're scaring yourself into corruption by saying without

01:28:15corruption, there's nothing.

01:28:17The only thing is corruption.

01:28:18Women are corrupt.

01:28:19Everyone's corrupt.

01:28:20All the women are corrupt.

01:28:21No.

01:28:22And therefore I have to choose a corrupt woman or I get no one.

01:28:25No, that's not what I'm saying.

01:28:26Yes, it is what you're saying.

01:28:28You're saying if I don't participate in this degenerate, corrupt wild West dating market,

01:28:32there's no one.

01:28:34No, I don't need to participate in that and I can still get it.

01:28:37It's just, I wanted to take part in the degeneracy.

01:28:41Okay.

01:28:42So sorry then.

01:28:43So you're saying that there are good women out there, but you wanted the degenerate ones.

01:28:49Um, in the meantime, as we were saying, like the meals, you know what I'm saying?

01:28:54Well, no, because in this scenario, you're saying there's only crap food and I got to

01:29:00eat.

01:29:00Whereas I'm saying you've got a buffet of good food and you've got a buffet of shit

01:29:04food and you're choosing the shit food.

01:29:07Okay.

01:29:08Then I, then I need more than where's, how do I find the good buffet?

01:29:16Well, not filling yourself up with the shit food and then you get hungry for the good

01:29:20food and then you go find the good food.

01:29:23But as long as you're eating the shit food, you're not hungry for the good food.

01:29:28Okay.

01:29:32Uh, yeah.

01:29:33That's, that's been a internal debate of mine.

01:29:37And you scare yourself into pursuing this corruption by saying there's no virtue out

01:29:41there.

01:29:43No, no, no, not no virtue.

01:29:47Um, it, I believe a hundred percent is out there.

01:29:51Um, my, uh, I, I want to give a, a bit of context.

01:29:55Um, this might change, um, the view and timeline of the conversation, but for the

01:30:02last six months, I realized that, um, and for the last six months, I just stopped with

01:30:11the pursuing of, uh, the bad buffet, so to speak.

01:30:16Mm-hmm.

01:30:18Um, broke it off with the, the, um, toxic ones and just to have not pursued the chances

01:30:25given that and been actively seeking virtuous.

01:30:28Okay, good.

01:30:29Good for you.

01:30:30Good for you.

01:30:31That's the, that's the one, um, point missed in this three-year timeline.

01:30:36I intentionally went headfirst into the, the degeneracy because I was curious about it

01:30:42and it's fun.

01:30:44Um, but there was this hollow feeling of, no, I don't want this anymore.

01:30:48So I pivoted.

01:30:49Okay, good, good.

01:30:51Um, however, I am being tempted to go back into it.

01:30:55So I'm, I got it.

01:30:57I'm trying to stay out of it.

01:30:59Right.

01:31:00Oh, and I get that.

01:31:01I understand.

01:31:02I mean, that's why we need virtuous, you know, the shit food is full of salt, fat and sugar

01:31:07and makes us feel good.

01:31:08Right.

01:31:08Once on the lips, forever on the hips.

01:31:09Right.

01:31:10Okay.

01:31:12It's just a question I want more closure on.

01:31:15I just, I've had, I've not been able to get closure on this one.

01:31:19The idea of you should, of taking the degenerate route and sleeping around and just having

01:31:26short relationships with a bunch of women that you don't love and I have no intention with.

01:31:31Does that inhibit or prohibit the virtuous route of finding one good one to?

01:31:36Oh, absolutely.

01:31:37Yeah, absolutely.

01:31:38It hurts your heart.

01:31:39It hurts your pair bonding and it puts the dominance of lust over virtue and it keeps

01:31:45you in the orbit of people who are, you know, trash planet.

01:31:48It keeps you in the orbit of people who are kind of crappy.

01:31:51And I say this with some sympathy.

01:31:52I know this sounds like some horrible thunderbolt judgment or whatever, but

01:31:55you know, it keeps you in the orbit of non-virtuous people and virtuous people are not in that orbit.

01:32:04No, you're absolutely right.

01:32:05You're not being like over exaggerated.

01:32:08It is trash planet.

01:32:11Yeah.

01:32:11I mean, if people without virtues, without values, without religion, without God, without

01:32:15a soul, without a higher calling, they're just kind of jumping from one dopamine

01:32:21stone to another in a rising sea, right?

01:32:23I mean, so it's tragic.

01:32:26And I view this people generally as just untutored and untrained and ungodded and unvirtued and,

01:32:33you know, they're just untrained.

01:32:37And that's really sad that society is just completely abandoned training people in virtue,

01:32:41but that's kind of necessary for bad people to rule us, right?

01:32:45They've got to stop teaching us about virtue.

01:32:47So I view them more as victims of an absence in the culture than of, you know, just people

01:32:52who are doing terrible things, but nonetheless, I mean, do you think that I'd be hanging around

01:32:58with the kind of women you were dating?

01:33:01Oh, no.

01:33:02No.

01:33:02So, and you just don't, those people, the good people aren't around.

01:33:11No, Freddie Mercury doesn't do karaoke, right?

01:33:14So, yeah, it definitely keeps you in an orbit of people that the good people will look at you and

01:33:20say, oh, well, look, this is your world.

01:33:22I'm not part of that world.

01:33:23And you'll probably never even meet them.

01:33:26It's that second part I'm scared of.

01:33:31Sure.

01:33:31No, I mean, this is all the way back to my very first book, which is like, yeah, you

01:33:35got to cross the desert.

01:33:36I mean, and nobody wants to, I mean, it's tough to cross the desert, right?

01:33:39It's, yeah, it's hard.

01:33:41I mean, you're leaving Sodom and Gomorrah and you're looking for the oasis of good people

01:33:44on the other side of the desert, and there's a lot of bones in that desert.

01:33:48Okay.

01:33:50So I get that.

01:33:50And that's a choice you have to make.

01:33:52But just make it consciously.

01:33:53If you decide to stay on Trash Planet and say, I'm not going to cross the desert.

01:33:57Okay, then don't cross the desert.

01:33:59And if you decide to stay on Trash Planet, you're going to have to cross the desert.

01:34:03And say, I'm not going to cross the desert.

01:34:04Okay, then don't lie to yourself and say, there's all these great virtues in these people.

01:34:09I just have to summon them with some magical rain dance or, you know, just say, okay, I'm

01:34:15just, I'm giving up on good people and I'm going to spend the rest of my life on Trash

01:34:18Planet.

01:34:19Let's, you know, just be honest about it.

01:34:22This lying to myself was a big part of that two-year period that I wasn't, like, full

01:34:28consciously aware of.

01:34:29The last six months I've taken that leap, but I wasn't aware of why.

01:34:33So that helped illuminate it.

01:34:36Yeah.

01:34:36So you're in the, crossing the desert is, I'm too good for the bad people, but not good

01:34:40enough for the good people.

01:34:41And I've crossed it and, you know, everybody, and it's a desert.

01:34:44I mean, it's a long stretch of wide nothing.

01:34:48And it, you know, it's like, if I keep going, I could die in the desert.

01:34:51If I turn back now, I can still make it back to the city.

01:34:55Right.

01:34:56Okay.

01:34:56The slum.

01:34:57I'm leaving the slum, got to cross the desert.

01:34:59So I sympathize and I understand and, but generally the way you cross the desert is

01:35:04you say, well, if I go back to Trash Planet, I can't pretend that it's not Trash Planet,

01:35:11like now.

01:35:12So that, like Trash Planet is only survivable because you lie to yourself.

01:35:16That's the only reason you stay, is you lie to yourself.

01:35:19Oh, there's these, you know, she's getting better.

01:35:20She's, she's cutting back on her binge drinking.

01:35:22She's, you know, listening to stories of virtue and, and, and so you lie to yourself.

01:35:29Oh, there's a chance I could really fall in love with her.

01:35:31So Trash Planet is just lying to yourself about Trash Planet.

01:35:34Once you, once you don't lie to yourself about Trash Planet, it becomes unbearable.

01:35:37And then that's how you get across the desert.

01:35:39You have to stop lying to yourself about Trash Planet and then you can get out.

01:35:45But if you keep, so the luring back is not going back to Trash Planet.

01:35:48It's going back to lying about Trash Planet.

01:35:51Gotcha.

01:35:51I see.

01:35:52I see.

01:35:53Um, a quick note that how do you, I have this issue.

01:36:00How do you handle not being jaded about people?

01:36:04Well, be around people who you don't have to be jaded about.

01:36:10Okay, that, that I get, but is it correct to be jaded about people?

01:36:17What do you mean by people?

01:36:19People.

01:36:20I mean, people like the people you've been hanging around with.

01:36:22I'd be jaded about them.

01:36:24That's why I don't hang around people like that.

01:36:26Okay.

01:36:27That's what I was checking in on.

01:36:28Um, all right.

01:36:32I mean, fundamentally, you're not jaded about people.

01:36:34You're jaded by your choice in people.

01:36:36That's what I'm talking about.

01:36:37Being jaded is the shadow cast by who you choose to hang around with.

01:36:41That's what I mean.

01:36:42Yeah.

01:36:43How do you, how do you handle being around broke people all the time?

01:36:45It's like, well, don't be around broke people if you don't want to be around broke people.

01:36:50Oh, okay.

01:36:52All right.

01:36:53Yeah, I realized it became, um.

01:36:57How do you handle being around fat, lazy people all the time?

01:37:00Well, there are people out there who aren't fat or lazy.

01:37:03So, it's your choice, right?

01:37:05How do I handle the negative results of my own bad choices?

01:37:09Well, the negative results are there to teach you to not make bad choices.

01:37:15Okay, yeah.

01:37:16Uh, this, um, I was not aware of how, like that hopeful thing we started it off with.

01:37:24I was being, okay.

01:37:26Yeah, you want to, you want to adapt to an environment that is the result of your own

01:37:32choices.

01:37:34And I would say that you don't have to adapt to your own choices because they're your choices.

01:37:40Okay.

01:37:41How do I deal with crazy people?

01:37:42No, the question is, how do I deal with my choice to be around crazy people?

01:37:49There you go.

01:37:50Okay, yeah.

01:37:50All right.

01:37:52Last regret, right?

01:37:55She died a couple of weeks ago, right?

01:37:56Two weeks ago?

01:37:57Yeah.

01:37:58Okay.

01:37:59If you'd made the play a month ago, would she have been on that plane?

01:38:05Yeah.

01:38:06Why?

01:38:06Uh, it was unrelated to, um, whatever I do, because it was to see a family member.

01:38:15Um, the, the only difference is I could have been on it.

01:38:20All right.

01:38:21Did you like her family?

01:38:24Yes.

01:38:27Okay.

01:38:28Um, and I'll say the yes as, uh, good enough, if that makes sense.

01:38:34Like they were serious about, um, uh, virtue and like peaceful parenting and that sort of stuff.

01:38:42Oh, come on, man.

01:38:43They raised a girl who thought that the way you prove,

01:38:46the way a boy proves his love for her to sleep with 12 trashy women.

01:38:50But very promiscuous.

01:38:52She was very promiscuous?

01:38:54No, parents were.

01:38:56Her parents were very promiscuous.

01:38:58Uh, like open marriage stuff?

01:39:01Uh, at the time they were divorced.

01:39:04Uh, were there affairs within the marriage?

01:39:08I don't think so.

01:39:10So you mean after they got divorced, both the husband and the wife were both very promiscuous?

01:39:17Yes.

01:39:17But I think beforehand too, but I don't know the beforehand.

01:39:20I only know the afterhand.

01:39:21Yes.

01:39:21Beforehand, you mean after they were separated, but before they were divorced?

01:39:25Um, beforehand, before they were married.

01:39:28Oh, so they were married, they were promiscuous.

01:39:30They may have been, we don't know.

01:39:32I'm sorry.

01:39:33Sorry.

01:39:33Say again.

01:39:34I only know the after the divorce, um, which was promiscuous.

01:39:40All right.

01:39:40And how did you, I mean, I, she, she said so that, and, and how, sorry, how old, how old

01:39:45was she when her parents divorced?

01:39:49I think it was 16, like late teens.

01:39:51Okay.

01:39:52Got it.

01:39:53She had a very good, um, upbringing.

01:39:58Right.

01:39:59That part that like the 16 after, I'm not a hundred percent sure about.

01:40:05So how do you know she had a very good upbringing?

01:40:08Um, just the parenting style, talking with the mom, et cetera.

01:40:12Um, hands-on direct, um, moral teachings.

01:40:19Okay.

01:40:19So where did she get the idea that you sleeping with 12 trashy women is really

01:40:25great for your relationship?

01:40:27I mean, you're saying she's great pianist.

01:40:28She's playing with her fucking forehead.

01:40:32Okay.

01:40:33Maybe I took it too seriously.

01:40:36Took what too serious.

01:40:38She made that comment before, but she could have been joking, but no, I think

01:40:42she was more serious about it.

01:40:43That's not something to joke about.

01:40:46Or, or, or it's not something to joke about in a way that you don't

01:40:49a hundred percent know it's a joke.

01:40:50Or or it's not something to joke about in a way that you don't 100% know it's a joke

01:40:57Okay

01:40:58It was the second part

01:41:00Right, so you don't make a joke which can be misinterpreted and the guy can make some foundational decisions on his life based upon

01:41:06Oh, no, it's just a joke, right?

01:41:08Yeah, which I did. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so it's serious

01:41:12Mm-hmm. Okay. So where does she get that from then?

01:41:15Um, yeah, maybe her mom. Promiscuous parents. Yeah. Promiscuity is good

01:41:26Yeah, right so that's kind of warped

01:41:31Yeah

01:41:32Does she have younger siblings?

01:41:36How dark do I want to go

01:41:39I can't tell you that

01:41:42did

01:41:45Yeah, and what happened to her younger? What do you mean? What happened to her younger sibling?

01:41:52In the plane, oh, I see. Sorry, but but when she was alive, did she have younger siblings?

01:42:00Yes, and how much what was the youngest sibling?

01:42:06Few years younger brother. Okay, so the brother was 14 when the parents divorced, right?

01:42:12Uh

01:42:13Something like that. Yeah, okay. I mean that's not ideal, right? I

01:42:17Know I mean, why wouldn't you wait at least until the kids are out of the house, which is only another couple of years, right?

01:42:25And for how long the marriage and for how long was the marriage bad before they divorced I

01:42:31Know give me a second. I might it's important. I might have

01:42:36Gotten it confused. Okay, it's it's either 6 or 16. It's a big deal

01:42:41Um, I know I mean she her parents either got divorced when she was 6 or 16

01:42:48Yes

01:42:50Seems like a relatively big deal. I

01:42:53know I

01:42:55Might have gotten it confused or something because 6 would be pretty terrible, right?

01:43:00Yes

01:43:01Great because then her brother would be 4

01:43:05Mm-hmm. I'm I'm gonna go I'm gonna go at 6 at the moment. I actually can't remember

01:43:10I'm gonna go it was 6. Okay, so you can't have a good childhood if your parents get divorced

01:43:16That was my and yeah, that's a I can

01:43:21Sorry and also if your parents are promiscuous after they get divorced

01:43:26Then you have a series of maybe you have a series of men and women

01:43:30Floating through the house with no bond with you, which hugely raises your risk of being abused

01:43:34Right, okay, this is confirming that it was 6 because I've had this discussion with her. Okay, so this is okay. Got it

01:43:41Oh, you just I remember this. Okay

01:43:44Yeah, I just checked him. Okay, so she she got to her parents got divorced when she was 6 and then we're very promiscuous afterwards

01:43:51Yeah

01:43:53So, what are you trying to sell me this crap of the great childhood for I'm not quite sure I understand

01:43:58the

01:44:01I

01:44:09Don't want to I don't want to call it crap because

01:44:12I'm open to being convinced

01:44:13Otherwise, but I it's something that I went deep into while I was there because it was it was a big red flag

01:44:24It

01:44:27I'm trying to process it. I

01:44:29Mean, it's very selfish, right?

01:44:31It's very selfish to break up a marriage because you want to sleep around at the massive expense of your children, right?

01:44:38Yeah, that's not good parenting right

01:44:41Assuming that's the reason yes

01:44:44Well, whatever reason it is

01:44:46Correct. You either chose to have children with someone you weren't getting along with or you stopped getting along after the kids or you wanted

01:44:53It doesn't matter what the reason is you got divorced when your kids were single digits, right? So that's bad parenting

01:45:02Okay

01:45:03No, I mean you keep saying okay, like I'm forcing you to I mean I'm happy to hear the case about how it's great parenting

01:45:09No to divorce when your kids are the single digits and then sleep around a lot. I

01:45:15Say okay, cuz it's like a yes, this is correct. I wish it wasn't I feel bad about it like that. That's that's the okay

01:45:22Um, but do you feel bad about it might be the part of lying to myself

01:45:30Now I'm just which which family member was she gonna go and see

01:45:36Sister right

01:45:40And what were your thoughts on the sister

01:45:46She she was an older sister not was it is

01:45:52I

01:45:53Didn't know almost anything about because she was never around. She was

01:45:58Out of town the whole time. I knew her and when I met it's like she is more

01:46:07The

01:46:08Conservative if that makes sense, right?

01:46:12And what's your boy? I guess this is double sense. What's what's your ex-girlfriend?

01:46:17Close to her parents

01:46:20Very close. Yeah, right

01:46:24And did she have any head she ever talked with her parents about the problems in the family related to divorce and promiscuity

01:46:32Often yes, and what I mean by her parents respond to that

01:46:36well, I

01:46:39That's that I guess that's that's coloring my this is a good relationship. I saw the conversation that they had in front of me

01:46:47and

01:46:48It was it was there was no it was just a genuine. Yes. You you were right. This was a

01:46:57Poor decision and here's how I'm gonna make it better blah blah blah

01:47:01I don't I don't remember the instance of the divorce though

01:47:06Or the reasoning behind that and what did they do to make it better?

01:47:14This I knew from

01:47:17I'll go with this it to make it better is the current relationship at that time

01:47:22Not not in the childhood, but as adult to adult parent kid

01:47:28Just result

01:47:31I'm digging through like a memory that I

01:47:35Don't have details on this. I remember you were there for the conversation. You said we're gonna work to make it better

01:47:39So what did they say they were gonna do to make it better?

01:47:47You

01:47:52Like a response of if I'm just gonna be flippant about

01:47:59Like like I

01:48:02Generally don't remember the specific details

01:48:05How long ago did that conversation occur?

01:48:08Like four years ago

01:48:10Okay, so you were still together then and you were together for another year or two after that

01:48:16And then you knew her still for two years or plus after that

01:48:21so

01:48:23Did she ever mention or did you ever hear about anything? Her parents were doing to make up for the bad parenting?

01:48:30No, no, nothing there. So she never mentioned it. You never heard about it

01:48:35No, let's see if no empirical evidence that her parents did squat to make up for anything

01:48:40You

01:48:45Yeah, I can't present correct, okay

01:48:49Okay

01:48:51All right, yeah, I mean if if if she had

01:48:57had issues with her family and they made empty promises of reform and and

01:49:03Making up for things and then they didn't do it. Maybe she'd have taken a break from her family

01:49:07It wouldn't have been on that plane. It's just one possibility. There's not a moral thing. It's just a a

01:49:12Consequentialist thing so that that's not it, but

01:49:16Sorry, but it's not it. Yes

01:49:19That wasn't the case. But yeah, sorry what you mean? That wasn't a case. I know that wasn't the case. What do you mean?

01:49:25As theory I agree, but not in practice. I don't know how to present evidence here, but maybe this is an issue

01:49:32I

01:49:34Mean I'm just think if I was her boyfriend for whatever like some alternate universe if I was a boyfriend and

01:49:38She was telling me about all the stuff about her parents. I would have said, okay

01:49:42well, geez, that was some pretty terrible decision that really had a negative impact on you and

01:49:47You know and then she has a conversation with them and they say we're sorry and we're gonna work to make amends

01:49:52I'd say okay. Well what specific steps and what's happening and what's like it wouldn't be the end of the convo, right?

01:49:57Mm-hmm, but what's for you, right?

01:50:02Yes

01:50:03Like you didn't care enough

01:50:05I think don't want to sound harsh

01:50:07But you didn't care enough to say have they followed through or like they didn't even they didn't even follow through on their marriage vows

01:50:13What would make you think they'd follow through on making amends? I

01:50:18Guess I was just there

01:50:21I

01:50:22Can't remember it. If that makes them. I'm not asking you whether you remember it. Did I ask whether you'd remembered it? I

01:50:28Said you you weren't there enough for her in my humble opinion. You weren't there enough for her to say, okay

01:50:34You had this really important conversation with your parents. What was the follow-up? Like what have they done and maybe they did stuff

01:50:40I don't know. I mean, we don't know we're just theorizing. We'll probably never know now, but

01:50:46Maybe you'd follow up right? I had to speak to my parents. They apologized

01:50:49They promised to make amends and then you follow up and say well have they be making amends or was it just something they?

01:50:53Said or whatever, right?

01:50:54right

01:50:58So anyway, that's obviously we're on the very outside of probabilities here

01:51:02So I I get that that's not but you know, I'm just in terms of of regrets

01:51:07so if you've been with her you'd have been on the plane and

01:51:11You would have gone down

01:51:13Yeah, okay. Yeah, that's that's that's that's tragic

01:51:17So, I mean what's in terms of regret?

01:51:20What decisions do you think and we sort of we can close on this and I really do appreciate the conversation. You've done a great job

01:51:26But

01:51:28In terms of regret

01:51:30Right, the loss is the loss

01:51:33Right. I mean, that's that's the price we pay for a pair bonding

01:51:36But with regards to things you could have done differently or things you could do differently

01:51:41Is there anything that you think you can in a sense pull from the wreckage of?

01:51:47this catastrophe

01:51:49That you can do different

01:51:51Because the best way to honor people we've lost is to lose less in the future, right

01:51:57To commit further to life to commit further to better decisions

01:52:01So do you think that there's anything that you can get out of this?

01:52:05mess this disaster

01:52:07That will minimize your regret in the future

01:52:13Do you wish you'd acted earlier

01:52:15Forget the the dying in the plane crash. I mean I get that's right, but do you

01:52:22I

01:52:23Think if you sorry if you didn't like her parents like for whatever reason right like if they had kind of said we're gonna do

01:52:29Reform right because the way it would have probably played out is if you had been there and said, okay

01:52:33Are they doing actual restitution or were they just saying it and then if she said well

01:52:38They're not really doing any actual restitution

01:52:40Then you know you would have probably said well

01:52:42you need to talk to them again or you need to talk about being disappointed or

01:52:45Or maybe you'd say well

01:52:46I don't like your family because they kind of

01:52:48Messed you up as a kid and and then they messed you up as an adult by promising restitution that never came

01:52:55Which is really betraying you again

01:52:57And so you probably wouldn't have been on that plane because you wouldn't have gone to go see your family. You don't respect, right?

01:53:04And maybe if you'd had a conversations with her maybe she wouldn't be on that plane again, this is all

01:53:10Conjecture right and you know that okay that that one click something. Okay. I see that and I didn't think about that

01:53:17So do you wish so forget about the being who's on the plane or not, but do you wish you had?

01:53:23Acted over the last couple of years to get her back

01:53:31I'm

01:53:32My immediate answer without thinking about it is no because it was only the plane that was the problem

01:53:39No, but you have to kiss you didn't know about the plane

01:53:42When you may remember those decisions, so do you wish?

01:53:45And

01:53:46I'm not trying to say whether you should or shouldn't have I'm genuinely curious. Do you wish you had acted earlier regardless of the plane?

01:53:52I I think like you there's so many variables in life

01:53:56That if you had say acted two years ago to get her back or 18 months ago

01:54:01Who knows what various decisions would have been made and the plane the plane then becomes much less likely

01:54:08You know the butterfly effect like every little decision you make right? Okay. So do you wish outside of the plane thing?

01:54:14Do you wish you had it works to get her back prior and the genuine answer to that is no, okay

01:54:22Surprisingly lack of regret there. Well, that's good. So so then she can't be an ideal that you hold other women to

01:54:30She can't be an ideal. Okay. Well because

01:54:36You don't wish you had her back sooner

01:54:44You

01:54:46Well

01:54:48Naturally, I do but I don't regret it. Does that make any sense? Nope. I

01:54:53Wish I had done it, but I don't regret not doing it is is a contradiction

01:54:58It was gonna do it like tomorrow, yeah, maybe that's why there's no regret. Oh

01:55:06I

01:55:08Wanted like a an answer that I

01:55:12It feels genuine from there, so I'll tell you why I'll tell you why you could not have lost by doing it earlier

01:55:20Okay, so I'm a big one for if you think it and you feel it say it, you know

01:55:25To my sometimes benefit and detriment in practical terms. So

01:55:29Let's say let's say that a year ago

01:55:32You had poured your heart out about how desperately you wanted her back and how much you loved her and how you really wanted to make

01:55:37A life together, right?

01:55:38Yes, now if she'd have said yes, maybe she would have flown to see you instead of her sister or

01:55:44Maybe you'd have been close enough that you'd pointed out some deficiencies in her family and maybe she'd

01:55:49Not be quite so keen to go visit them or I don't know it like that

01:55:52So we don't know any of that kind of stuff. But let's say let's say she had said no, we're never getting back together, right?

01:55:59Which

01:56:01Well, okay, I did do the pour my heart out thing and when did you do that like

01:56:07Early after the the breakup, okay. And what does she say to that again?

01:56:15Well

01:56:17No, but maybe in the future

01:56:20right, and

01:56:22Okay, so if you had poured it out again

01:56:25As you were planning on doing tomorrow, right if you poured it out and do you mean like literally tomorrow?

01:56:31She would have been there. No, I didn't know. Okay, but let's in

01:56:34Okay, so so if you if you'd if you'd poured your heart out again and

01:56:38She would have she'd have just said well now is later, but it's still no, so I guess it's no

01:56:45Right, then you would have had closure, right

01:56:47yeah, and

01:56:49Then no, I'm sorry. I

01:56:52Personally I would not have had closure. Sure. You would have yeah, cuz she doesn't want you

01:56:56Now I'm not saying that you wouldn't have still wanted her but you would have closure as to whether you can have a relationship, right?

01:57:02Well, I already went through that and then no no, but she said maybe no, that's why I changed the variables brother

01:57:07I've changed the variables to where she says no and never not no and maybe well, she said oh my god when we broke up

01:57:13She said no

01:57:15But I'm sorry didn't I she said no and then you said you asked her afterwards. She said not now, but maybe later

01:57:21Yeah, so I should have I close it then but then I tried again. No, no

01:57:24No, she said she said maybe later now, so I changed the variables

01:57:28I was very conscious about that to where she says well later is now

01:57:34It's still no, so it's never does that make sense

01:57:40You're never ever getting like Taylor Swift style we are never ever ever getting back together if you just said that right I was about

01:57:45to saying yeah, um

01:57:46Yeah. Yeah, I would still not oppose you

01:57:50But that's me well, no you you would have denied closure, but you'd still have it

01:57:56You can only you could only have closed you could only have not had closure by pretending

01:58:00She said something other than what she said or she doesn't really mean it or or it'll change like so just by not listening to

01:58:06Her you would have had closure, but by not listening to her you wouldn't be showing her respect. So you'd have closure no matter what

01:58:13Okay, she doesn't know her she doesn't mean that right that's that's just not listening to her right I

01:58:19Not respecting what she says, right? So that's not good either

01:58:22So if she'd have said no you'd had closure

01:58:26So yes, I think you should have

01:58:29Not waited if you were still yearning for her

01:58:31Then you should have been honest with her

01:58:34Because by hiding how much you were yearning for her and wanted her back you were being kind of dishonest with her, right?

01:58:43Yeah, I see what you mean

01:58:46Because

01:58:48You were also deceiving her

01:58:51About the trip because she thought she was coming for a visit and you were gonna try and I don't know

01:58:56I'm not saying exactly locker in the basement, but you were gonna make a serious play for her, right?

01:59:00Well, yes, and she didn't know that coming in, right?

01:59:06Yeah

01:59:07Yes, she didn't know that

01:59:09Yes, she didn't know that so

01:59:12That's a bit deceptive, right?

01:59:14Okay, yeah and

01:59:17It's not giving her the choice

01:59:20Because then she's there you make a play for her and she's kind of surprised didn't know it was coming

01:59:23Or maybe maybe she was going to do the same thing. And I don't I don't know right? Obviously, we'll never know

01:59:28But there's no indication of that, right?

01:59:33She were coming for some bizarre a situationship visit, right?

01:59:39Look at me using the younger person's lingo and I think

01:59:41I know it

01:59:44The first time I felt like okay boomer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's fair. That's I mean, I'm one year shy of a boom

01:59:49I'm gonna hold on to that like grim death

01:59:52But no, I am I can't tell you how much my daughter enjoys it when I use gen a slang

01:59:55She just she just finds it delightful beyond beyond wonderful

01:59:59She she would like me even more to do it in public

02:00:02But that's something I'm holding off until to just really delight her down the road

02:00:08So, but no she would be coming

02:00:12Thinking it was, you know friends with history, right?

02:00:16Okay, yeah, no, is that right is that what she was thinking I

02:00:20I'm gonna I'm gonna say yes. I I really I am seeing the pattern of me deluding myself

02:00:27No, I'm not talking about you deluding yourself. I mean you knew you were leaving her, right?

02:00:31You knew that you weren't saying I'm gonna make a play for you when you come come so that I know little things

02:00:35I was no, I'm deluding myself into thinking. Yeah, she sees that coming

02:00:39I'm sorry. Say again. Yes. I'm deluding myself into thinking. Yeah, she sees that coming. Of course you expected

02:00:47Okay. Okay, right, but then that then there would be no problem vocalizing it if you already knew, right?

02:00:56Like if I get home with a giant sunburn and I say to my wife I have a sunburn she'll say well

02:01:01I know I could see the fact that you look like a tomato with blue eyes

02:01:05Alright, so if something's Jen if my wife knows something there's no harm saying it, right?

02:01:08So if she already knows this you could say yeah come back and you know

02:01:11Let's see if we get back together because if she's expecting that but the fact that you didn't say that means that you didn't think

02:01:16She knew that

02:01:19My genuine logic was this is an in-person conversation, but yeah, yeah

02:01:23Yeah, for sure for sure and that's fine. But she didn't know that she was coming for that in-person conversation

02:01:30Okay

02:01:32Yeah, unless you were both trying to deceive each other in which case this may not be the very best basis for a relationship

02:01:37But anyway, yeah

02:01:39Okay. So yeah, I think in general the lesson to get is if it's in your heart say it

02:01:46If it's in your heart say it don't don't wait don't manipulate don't deceive don't false pretense don't you know

02:01:52Hey, we're just friends, you know, I just say it

02:01:54I mean, that's been my policy for better or for worse and I think it served me pretty well over life and it's just you

02:01:59know, it's really complicated to just manipulate and

02:02:02And falsify

02:02:03It's complicated. It's messy. It's you know, you're coming from a point of fraud and

02:02:09Falseness and it's just it's real tough to navigate

02:02:13Whereas if you know you want her back, you know

02:02:16I think the honest thing if you have a commitment to honesty if you want someone back the honest thing is to say what I

02:02:24Want you back there you go

02:02:27For four easy words now again, you know, it's scary and you know, but yeah, I mean I I've done that I you know

02:02:34I once or twice I wanted to get back together with an ex and I said I want you back

02:02:38mm-hmm and

02:02:40One time the woman said no and she was right and one time a woman said yes, and she was wrong. So

02:02:49No, I did they're getting back together almost never works because then

02:02:53What you have this yearning and you have this fantasy and you have this ideal and then you get back together and you know within three

02:02:58Days, you're like, oh right. This is why it didn't work

02:03:02but you know, so so I think in general the way to minimize regret as much as possible is

02:03:08to take the lesson of don't wait and

02:03:12Don't falsify

02:03:14Don't manipulate just be direct

02:03:17You

02:03:18Right, and that's how you get closure in like manipulation will never get you closure

02:03:23And directness will get you closure

02:03:26Directly. Yeah

02:03:30And I mean, I also wanted to say like I'm really sorry for your loss and it is a big loss

02:03:34it's a substantial loss and there's a hole in your heart and I I

02:03:38I

02:03:39Sympathize with that, you know as a hole in your heart

02:03:41I can see the seawater on the other side like lots of salt and wetness and I really

02:03:45Sympathize with that porthole view and and it's a very tough death is a very difficult thing and

02:03:51The death of the person the death of the hope the death of the future and maybe the death of the illusion

02:03:56but the death of the person is

02:03:59Really substantial and I'm really sorry for what has happened and you just do have my my deepest sympathies for for your loss

02:04:06Which is substantial

02:04:09Thank you

02:04:12Hmm it I feel well ready enough to

02:04:21To like continue speaking and now being more aware of how many illusions I hold

02:04:25I was a little surprised by that. No, if it's any consolation, I still have mine

02:04:30So, you know, this is a yeah, you know, especially when you race badly. It's it's a sort of constant challenge, but an exciting one

02:04:36I enjoy the combat myself. It's like a mental video game to chase down the ghosts and exercise them

02:04:41So, all right. Listen, I I really appreciate the call

02:04:44I'm glad we could do it in such short notice and

02:04:46My deepest sympathies and I hope that you'll keep me posted about how things are going

02:04:51Yeah, I will and and thank you for this. I wasn't expecting to go this way, but

02:04:57No, it has to be unexpected. Otherwise, there's no point calling as the funeral come and gone

02:05:03Yes, and did you go you didn't right

02:05:06Couldn't know okay. Why couldn't you Oh travel or something? Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, yeah my sympathies for that as well. And I

02:05:14would certainly

02:05:17Maybe write something down your memories and all of that

02:05:19So you don't forget because it's easy to forget these things and I think keeping a record of these things, you know

02:05:23Put together an album maybe the picture the pictures the memories and just have it all down

02:05:28So that it doesn't get washed away like the sandcastles on the beach of the general pounding of the days

02:05:33so

02:05:34That would be my suggestion. But yeah best of luck and I hope you keep you posted and thanks for a great call today. I

02:05:40Will thank you. Bye. Bye

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