Russia is using war crimes as a systematic tool of fighting its war in Ukraine, says human rights lawyer Oleksandra Matviichuk of the Nobel-Prize-winning Center for Civil Liberties. Speaking to DW's Richard Walker at the Ukraine Recovery Conference in Berlin, Matviichuk explained why it’s crucial to counter Russia's sense of impunity.
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00We're here at the Ukraine Recovery Conference in Berlin with Oleksandr Matveichuk.
00:05He is a human rights campaigner from Ukraine who founded the Ukrainian Center for Civil Liberties.
00:11This organization was one of the winners of the 2022 Nobel Peace Prize.
00:16Oleksandr Matveichuk, thank you very much for speaking to DW today.
00:20Now, you've been documenting war crimes throughout this war,
00:25even going back to before the full-scale invasion of 2022.
00:30But give us an update and tell us something about the evidence that you've been hearing from victims over the past two years.
00:37When large-scale war started, we united efforts with dozens of organizations from the different regions
00:43and built national network of local documentators.
00:46Working together only for these two years of large-scale war,
00:50we jointly documented more than 72,000 episodes of war crimes.
00:55And this is a huge amount, but just a tip of iceberg.
00:59Because Russia uses war crimes as a method of warfare.
01:03Russia deliberately shelling residential buildings, schools, churches, museums and hospitals,
01:10attacking evacuation corridors, torturing people in infiltration camps,
01:15forcibly taking Ukrainian children to Russia.
01:18Russian troops abducting, robbing, raping and killing civilians in the occupied territories.
01:24So, I mean, this is a huge catalogue, what you described there, 72,000.
01:29You in your own personal work, you've spoken to victims,
01:33like people who have been personally the victims of these crimes.
01:37Tell us about some of the evidence that you've heard personally.
01:41For years, I was focused on the legal practice of detention,
01:46sexual violence and torturing civilians in the occupied territories.
01:50And I personally interviewed hundreds of people who survived Russian captivity.
01:55They told me how they were beaten, raped, smashed into wooden boxes,
02:00their fingers were cut, their nails were turned away, their nails were drilled,
02:05they were tortured with electricity, so they're in Italy, and all other horrible details.
02:12And when people ask me why Russians are doing such things,
02:17because there is no military necessity in it, I can only answer, because they could.
02:24So, for you, you believe that simply the power to be able to do this is the reason why?
02:31You say there's no military necessity.
02:33Do you see any kind of systematic reason why these crimes were happening?
02:39There is systematic reason, and there is a result of long-lasting tradition of unity.
02:45Let me start with systematic reason.
02:47Russia instrumentalized the pain.
02:50Russia used the pain as a tool how to break people's resistance and occupy the country.
02:56And Russia is doing this for decades.
02:59Russia committed horrible crimes in Chechnya, in Moldova, in Georgia, in Mali, in Libya, in Syria,
03:06in other countries of the world.
03:08Russia has never been punished.
03:10That's why Russians believe they can do whatever they want.
03:14So your organization is partly about seeking justice for that.
03:18I would like to talk about that just in a moment, about how you try to achieve that.
03:22But first of all, we're here in Berlin.
03:24We're at this big international conference called the Ukraine Recovery Conference.
03:29This is partly about the economy, but it's also about society providing the support
03:33to help Ukraine continue through this war.
03:37Do you feel this event has been a success?
03:40Are you encouraged by what you've seen here?
03:43We need such kind of platforms to discuss the urgent questions as recovery is,
03:49because when we speak about recovery, we have no luxury to postpone it after the war period
03:55because we have no idea.
03:57Either we are in the end of the war, in the middle of the war, or just in the beginning of the war.
04:02Russia is preparing for long protracted actions.
04:05This means that we have to start recovery now and return breath to local communities
04:11and to restore economic life of our country.
04:17Let's move then to this question of seeking justice.
04:21Now, one of the most extraordinary and shocking examples of the war crimes
04:26that have been uncovered in Ukraine is one of the things you mentioned,
04:31that children have been kidnapped and taken into Russia.
04:35The International Criminal Court has taken action on this, has taken steps.
04:41There is an arrest warrant, an international arrest warrant for Vladimir Putin, the Russian president.
04:46That's more than a year ago. Of course, he hasn't been arrested.
04:49Tell me about the importance of this step by the International Criminal Court.
04:54And when people hear that, an arrest warrant for Putin, he's not been arrested,
04:59many people think, well, is the whole thing pointless?
05:02Explain, what would be your point of view?
05:04It's a very important step.
05:06First is a strong signal that justice is possible, even though delaying time.
05:12Because International Criminal Court demonstrate that we don't care
05:16that Putin is acting head of a state which has veto power in Security Council of UN,
05:22which has nuclear weapons, strong military potential and 140 millions of population.
05:29If Putin committed crimes, International Criminal Court will prosecute him.
05:35This is a very right message, which we lack in the modern world.
05:39But also, this decision will have a long-term and short-term perspectives.
05:43From the long-term perspectives, let me remind us that authoritarian regime collapsed
05:49and their leaders, who see themselves untouchable, appeared under the court.
05:54Like Milosevic. Serbia didn't want to transfer Milosevic to the Hague, but Serbia did.
06:00But it's also important from the short-term perspective.
06:03Because, unfortunately, even in developed democracies, there are some politicians
06:09which want to return to business as usual with Russia.
06:13And probably it's okay for countries which are not democratic to shake Putin's hand,
06:20but it's not possible for democratic leaders in democratic countries
06:25to shake hands with the biggest child kidnapper in the world.
06:31So, then there is both a legal reason for doing this and also a symbolic reason for doing this.
06:38There have also been attempts of prosecutions within Ukraine,
06:42like Ukraine trying to use its own legal system.
06:44Can you give us an update on that and what are the efforts being taken there?
06:49We face with enormous amount of crimes.
06:52And that is why Office of General Prosecutor opened more than 130 thousands criminal proceedings.
06:59And this is enormous amount.
07:01It's very difficult to effectively investigate in accordance of all requirements of Article 6
07:07of European Convention of Human Rights during the war.
07:10Even for the best national system in the world.
07:13Ukraine is not the best national system in the world.
07:16This means that we need international assistance.
07:19But returning to Putin, Putin has immunity according to international law.
07:25That is why it's so important to create international tribunal on aggression and hold him accountable.
07:32And you've been discussing this, that this is something that would target not just war crimes,
07:37but also the crime of aggression.
07:39Could you explain this idea?
07:41We have four types of international crimes.
07:45It's war crimes, crimes against humanity, genocide and crime of oppression.
07:50All atrocities which we are now documenting, it's results of the leadership decision to start this war.
07:57And that is why if we want to prevent wars in the future,
08:00we have to punish the states and their leaders who start such wars in the present.
08:05And this is a common logic.
08:07But the problem is that there is no international court which has jurisdiction to prosecute Putin
08:14and top political leadership and high military command of the Russian state for the crime of aggression.
08:20And that is why it's so important to create this special tribunal on aggression in the form of international court
08:27and hold all responsible people for the crime of aggression accountable.
08:32That's clear. In this case, Russia is the aggressor.
08:37But you have said that your organization is also open to looking at any war crimes that may be perpetrated on the other side.
08:44Have you found any evidence of that so far of Ukrainian forces?
08:48Sure. We are documenting human rights violations regardless of sides.
08:54And that is why let me assure you that the vast majority of crimes which we document in our base were committed by Russians.
09:02Because it's deliberate policy of the Russian states.
09:05When something wrong was committed by Ukrainian forces and we document it,
09:11we as human rights defenders have at least a tool how to influence the situation.
09:16We can register a criminal case. We can use international media to make pressure.
09:21We can apply to international organizations and the case will move.
09:27But when we face with Russian atrocities, there is no tool for us how to influence to Russia.
09:34Now these war crimes have taken place under a Russian invasion, partial occupation of Ukraine.
09:42It was clear at the very outset of this war that Vladimir Putin's objective, many suspect that is still his objective.
09:49Have you thought about what would happen if Vladimir Putin did take full control of Ukraine?
09:56How this cultural impunity, what would that mean for the risks to the Ukrainian people in terms of further abuses?
10:04Russian occupation is not just changing one state flag to another.
10:10Russian occupation means enforced disappearances, torture, rape, denial of your identity,
10:17forcible adoption of your own children, filtration camps and mass graves.
10:22But when we speak about negative impact, let me tell you what will Russia do.
10:27If Russia succeed to occupy the country, Russia will go further.
10:32Because Russia is empire and empire has a center but has no borders.
10:38People who survived from Russian captivity told us that Russians described their vision of the future like they said,
10:46first we occupy Ukraine and then together with you we'll go to conquer another countries.
10:53So let me be clear, people in European Union are safe only because Ukrainians are still fighting.
11:03Just before we finish, the international agenda has been very much focused on,
11:10it's kind of shifted to some extent from Ukraine to the war in Gaza,
11:14since the Hamas terrorist attack of October 7th and then the Israeli action against that.
11:20And both the leadership of Hamas and also Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli Prime Minister,
11:27have also faced legal steps from prosecutors of the International Criminal Court.
11:33This has also been extremely controversial internationally.
11:37To what extent is this focus on that conflict and this controversy around that, is that affecting your work?
11:46Do you feel that it is overshadowing the message you are trying to bring to the world?
11:52Unfortunately this Russian war against Ukraine is not just one tragedy in the world.
11:58We can mention other countries which in current moment are suffering,
12:03like Sudan, Nicaragua, Afghanistan, Iran, you just mentioned this bloody war in the Middle East.
12:10The problem is that the international system of peace and security is not working.
12:15It can't protect people against the solidarity in the war.
12:19And that's why it's very easy to predict that such fires, like wars,
12:24will emerge more and more often in different parts of the globe,
12:27because the international system is faulty and sparks are everywhere.
12:32So I understand that people shift their attention to different fires,
12:39but it's not appropriate for responsible politicians, because the problems will not vanish.
12:46The problem will become more and more serious, and this war in the Middle East is one bright example.
12:53If we postpone to solve problems, because we don't want to go from the zone of comfort today,
13:01the catastrophe will await for us tomorrow.
13:04Alexandra Medvedchuk, thank you very much.
13:06Thank you.