Amanpour & Co. - January 31, 2024
Former Chief of Israel’s Shin Bet, Ami Ayalon discusses the ongoing negotiations between Israel and Hamas for some truce. Alicia Kearns, Chair of the U.K. Parliament’s Foreign Affairs Committee talks about Britain’s current role in the Middle East. Reverend Frederick Haynes III speaks on behalf of Black pastors across America who have united to ask President Biden to support a ceasefire in Gaza.
Transcript
00:01♪♪
00:04>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME
00:06TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."
00:06HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
00:09>> I CANNOT DESTROY IDEAS.
00:13AND FOR ME, I HAVE TO TALK TO
00:17EVERYBODY WHO ACCEPT THE IDEA OF
00:19TWO STATES.
00:20>> WHAT IS ISRAEL'S EXIT PLAN
00:22FROM GAZA?
00:24FORMER SECURITY CHIEF AMI AYALON
00:27JOINS ME.
00:28>>> THEN, BRITAIN SAYS IT COULD
00:30FORMALLY RECOGNIZE A PALESTINIAN
00:32STATE.
00:32AND HOW IT IS HELPING ITS MOST
00:34POWERFUL ALLY, AS THE U.S.
00:35STRUGGLES IN THE MIDDLE EAST.
00:36I'LL SPEAK WITH PARLIAMENT'S TOP
00:38FOREIGN AFFAIRS OFFICIAL, ALICIA
00:39KEARNS.
00:40>>> ALSO AHEAD --
00:42>> MY WORST FEARS ARE A LIVING
00:44NIGHTMARE FOR THOSE WHO ARE
00:45LIVING IN GAZA.
00:46>> OVER 1,000 BLACK PASTORS ARE
00:49PRESSURING PRESIDENT BIDEN TO
00:50CALL FOR A CEASE-FIRE.
00:52REVEREND FREDERICK HAYNES TELLS
00:56MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT THEIR
01:00CAMPAIGN.
01:02♪♪
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01:57>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM,
01:58EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE
01:59AMANPOUR IN LONDON.
02:01PRESSURE IS MOUNTING FOR ISRAEL
02:03AND HAMAS TO MAKE THAT DEAL FOR
02:05HOSTAGE AND PRISONER?
02:06SWAPS AND A PAUSE IN THE
02:08FIGHTING.
02:08BUT PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN
02:10NETANYAHU CONTINUES TO REJECT
02:12KEY HAMAS DEMANDS.
02:15>> Translator: I HEAR TALK ABOUT
02:16ALL KINDS OF DEALS.
02:18I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE IT CLEAR,
02:19WE WILL NOT CONCLUDE THIS WAR
02:20WITHOUT ACHIEVING ALL OF ITS
02:22GOALS.
02:22WE WILL NOT WITHDRAW THE IDF
02:24FROM THE GAZA STRIP AND WE WILL
02:27NOT RELEASE THOUSANDS OF
02:27TERRORISTS.
02:28NONE OF THIS WILL HAPPEN.
02:30>> MEANTIME, HEAVY FIGHTING
02:32CONTINUES IN GAZA'S KHAN YUNIS
02:35AREA, FORCING NEARLY 200,000
02:37PALESTINIANS TO FLEE, ACCORDING
02:38TO THE U.N.
02:39MY NEXT GUEST KNOWS THE SECURITY
02:41AND DIPLOMATIC MAZE THERE VERY
02:44WELL.
02:48AMI AYALON HAS BEEN PUSHING FOR
02:50NEGOTIATIONS FOR A TWO-STATE
02:51SOLUTION.
02:51AND IN A RARE INTERVIEW, HE
02:55JOINED ME.
02:58WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.
02:59>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
03:01>> SO, FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, AS
03:02A LONGTIME MILITARY AND
03:06INTELLIGENCE, YOU KNOW, CHIEFS
03:07AND OPERATIVES AND EXPERIENCE,
03:09IS ISRAEL WINNING THIS WAR?
03:11>> WELL, IT'S VERY, VERY
03:13DIFFICULT TO GIVE YOU A SHORT
03:16AND CLEAR ANSWER, BECAUSE SINCE
03:18WE DO NOT -- WE DO NOT DISCUSS
03:20THE DAY AFTER, MEANING WE DO NOT
03:23DISCUSS ESSENCE OF VICTORY, SO,
03:24IF I CANNOT DEFINE VICTORY, I'M
03:27NOT SURE THAT ANYBODY CAN TELL
03:28YOU THAT WE ARE WINNING.
03:31SOME SAY THAT WE DON'T KNOW
03:31EXACTLY WHERE WE ARE HEADING,
03:33SO -- WE HAVE GREAT ACHIEVEMENTS
03:37ON THE GROUND, ON THE
03:40BATTLEFIELD, BUT THERE IS A HUGE
03:40GAP BETWEEN WINNING THE BATTLE
03:43AND WINNING THE WAR.
03:44>> UH-HUH.
03:45>> SO, UNLESS WE DECIDE EXACTLY
03:49ON THE DAY AFTER, OR, WHAT IS
03:52THE MEANING OF VICTORY IN THIS
03:53WAR AGAINST HAMAS, I CANNOT GIVE
03:55YOU A CLEAR ANSWER.
03:57>> OKAY, WELL, THAT'S IMPORTANT
03:59TO HEAR FROM YOU, BECAUSE, YOU
04:00KNOW, NONE OF US HAVE THAT
04:04ANSWER, AND IT HASN'T BEEN
04:05STATED BY YOUR GOVERNMENT.
04:06SO, WHAT I WANT TO THEN ASK YOU
04:08IS, THE MISSION, THE MISSION,
04:11ACCORDING TO YOUR GOVERNMENT, IS
04:12TO DEFEAT HAMAS ON THE
04:16BATTLEFIELD, AND TO RESCUE THE
04:18HOSTAGES, THE REMAINING
04:20HOSTAGES.
04:20MY QUESTION IS, CAN THAT BE
04:22SOMETHING THAT HAPPENS AT THE
04:24SAME TIME?
04:24CAN A MILITARY OPERATION RESCUE
04:27THE HOSTAGES AND DEFEAT HAMAS AT
04:28THE SAME TIME?
04:31>> OF COURSE.
04:32THERE ARE TWO VIEWS.
04:33ONE IS, ONLY WAY TO PRESSURE
04:37HAMAS TO GIVE BACK THE HOSTAGES
04:38IS TO CREATE A MILITARY
04:42PRESSURE, AND THE OTHER IS THAT
04:43THEY -- THEY WILL CHOOSE, IN
04:46THIS CASE, WHAT WE CALL OPTION,
04:53AND WE SHALL LOSE ALL -- ALL OF
04:55THEM.
04:56>> OKAY, SO, LET ME PUT IT
04:58ANOTHER WAY THEN.
05:00LET'S JUST TALK ABOUT THIS
05:01CEASE-FIRE NEGOTIATIONS.
05:02AS FAR AS WE CAN GATHER, AND --
05:07OR PAUSE HOSTAGE DEAL, THERE ARE
05:09MANY DIFFERENT WAYS TO DESCRIBE
05:11IT, AS FAR AS WE CAN GATHER, THE
05:13IDEA WOULD BE TO GET THE REMAINS
05:15HOSTAGES OUT, IN RETURN FOR SOME
05:18FORMULATION OF RELEASING A LOT
05:19OF PALESTINIAN PRISONERS, PLUS,
05:23SOME KIND OF PAUSE.
05:24THEY'VE TALKED ABOUT SIX WEEKS,
05:25OR TWO MONTHS, EVEN.
05:28WHAT IS YOUR OPINION ON A PAUSE?
05:32WHAT WOULD THAT DO ON THE
05:32GROUND?
05:35>> I DON'T HAVE ANY VIEW ABOUT
05:37IT.
05:37UNLESS -- UNLESS I KNOW, WHERE
05:41ARE WE GOING ON THE DAY AFTER?
05:43IF THE PACKAGE IS EXACTLY WHAT
05:45YOU SAID, AND ON THE DAY AFTER,
05:47WE SHALL CREATE A FRAMEWORK OF
05:49FUTURE OF TWO STATES, I WILL
05:53VOTE FOR IT.
05:58BUT IF THE FUTURE, OR THE LATER,
06:00THE DAY AFTER, WILL BE, YOU
06:01KNOW, CEASE-FIRE FOR ONE MONTH,
06:04THREE MONTH, WHATEVER, I KNOW
06:09EXACTLY WITHOUT A FRAMEWORK OF
06:10TWO STATES, HAMAS WILL NOT BE
06:13DESTROYED, HAMAS WILLFLOURISH
06:16AGAIN, AND OF COURSE, ALL THE
06:18MAJOR GOAL OF BRINGING BACK ALL
06:20THE HOSTAGES, BUT WE HAVE TO
06:21UNDERSTAND, THIS WAR IS ON TWO
06:23FRONTS.
06:23ONE IS THE BATTLEFIELD.
06:26BUT THE OTHER IS A WAR OF IDEAS.
06:29AND HAMAS WILL BE DEFEATED ONLY
06:32ON THE SECOND FRONT.
06:33THE WAR OF IDEAS.
06:35THE MAJOR DEFEAT FOR HAMAS IS
06:38THE FUTURE OF TWO STATES, AND
06:40UNLESS WE SHALL DISCUSS THE
06:42FUTURE OF TWO STATES, THERE IS
06:43NO WAY TO DEFEAT HAMAS AND TO
06:46CREATE THE BETTER POLITICAL
06:47HORIZON FOR PALESTINIANS AND FOR
06:48ISRAELIS.
06:49>> BUT YOUR PRIME MINISTER, EVEN
06:52YESTERDAY, WAS OUT IN THE FIELD
06:53SAYING, NO, NO, NO.
06:55WE WILL NOT, YOU KNOW, AGREE TO
06:57A TWO-STATE SOLUTION.
06:59EVEN THOUGH THE UNITED STATES,
07:01HIS MAIN ALLY, IS SAYING, THIS
07:02MUST BE.
07:03AND ALL THE ARAB STATES WHO HE
07:05WANTS TO NORMALIZE WITH SAY,
07:07THIS MUST BE.
07:07SO, WHO IS GOING TO WIN THIS
07:09BATTLE ON THE EXIT STRATEGY AND
07:10THE DAY AFTER?
07:14>> AH -- IT'S A GREAT QUESTION,
07:16OF COURSE, I BELIEVE AND I HOPE
07:17THAT WE, WHEN I SAY WE, IS THE
07:22PEOPLE, THE MAJORITY OF THE
07:24PEOPLE OF ISRAEL.
07:26NETANYAHU TODAY DO NOT REPRESENT
07:28MORE THAN 20% OF THE ISRAELIS.
07:29BUT YOU KNOW, IN DEMOCRACY, WE
07:31SHALL HAVE TO GO TO ELECTIONS.
07:35SO, TODAY, AND WE KNOW IT,
07:36BECAUSE WE HAVE POLLS, AND THIS
07:38IS THE MOST THAT WE CAN DO, 70%
07:42OF THE ISRAELIS WOULD TAKE THE
07:46PACKAGE THAT YOU OFFERED, IF ALL
07:49THE HOSTAGES WILL BE BROUGHT
07:49BACK AND WE SHALL HAVE A
07:51CEASE-FIRE OR WHATEVER YOU CALL
07:52IT.
07:55AND WE SHALL HAVE TO, YOU KNOW,
07:58RELEASE PALESTINIAN HOSTAGES,
07:58BUT AGAIN, THEY WILL ACCEPT A
08:03FUTURE REALITY OF TWO STATES.
08:06MY PRIME MINISTER DO NOT
08:08REPRESENT THE ISRAELI PEOPLE,
08:09AND UNFORTUNATELY, YOU KNOW,
08:11HE'S LEADING US, AND WE SHALL
08:11HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL RESERVES WILL
08:13COME BACK AND WE SHALL TAKE TO
08:16THE STREETS AND WE SHALL EXPLAIN
08:19IN MANY, MANY ACTIONS AND WORDS
08:22WHAT WE, THE ISRAELI PEOPLE, DO
08:24REALLY WANT, AND HOPEFULLY WE
08:27SHALL HAVE ELECTIONS.
08:29IN FEW MONTHS.
08:29AND WE SHALL FIND THE RIGHT --
08:32THE RIGHT WAY TO -- TO A BETTER
08:36FUTURE.
08:37>> CAN I ASK YOU WHAT YOU THINK,
08:38BECAUSE YOU'VE WRITTEN ABOUT
08:39THIS AND YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT IT,
08:40WHAT IS THE BIGGEST
08:42MISCONCEPTION THAT YOUR
08:43GOVERNMENT HAS, AND MAYBE A LOT
08:44OF ISRAELIS HAVE, ABOUT
08:47PALESTINIANS?
08:47YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT
08:48MISCONCEPTIONS.
08:49>> RIGHT.
08:51THERE ARE TWO LEVERS OF THEM.
08:56FIRST, ON THE POLITICAL LEVEL,
08:58THE MISCONCEPTION WAS LED BY
09:00NETANYAHU DURING THE LAST 14, 15
09:03YEARS, WHEN HE WAS IN POWER, AND
09:07WE CALL IT MANAGING THE
09:10CONFLICT.
09:10OR SHRINKING THE CONFLICT,
09:12WHATEVER YOU CALL IT.
09:13THE IDEA WAS THAT WE HAVE TO
09:16RULE AND SEPARATE, MEANING WE
09:18HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT HAMAS
09:20WILL STAY IN POWER IN GAZA, AND
09:22IN ORDER FOR -- TO DO IT, HE
09:24INCREASED, OR, HE EMPOWERED
09:30HAMAS, LEADING QATAR TO SEND
09:31MONEY, AND, YOU KNOW, DOING
09:33EVERYTHING IN ORDER FOR HAMAS TO
09:34STAY IN POWER.
09:35AND ON THE SAME WAY, TO DECREASE
09:38THE POWER OF -- BECAUSE THEY DO
09:44NOT BELIEVE IN VIOLENCE.
09:45SO, PALESTINIANS, THE PERCEPTION
09:47OF HAMAS, MOST OF THEM DO NOT
09:51ACCEPT THE THEOLOGY OR THE
09:53RELIGIOUS IDEOLOGY OF HAMAS,
09:55THEY SEE HAMAS AS THE ONLY
09:57ORGANIZATION WHO FIGHT FOR THEIR
09:59FREEDOM.
09:59SO, MOST PALESTINIANS, YOU KNOW,
10:03LEFT ABU, TODAY, WILL NOT GET
10:05MORE THAN 50% OF SUPPORT AMONG
10:08PALESTINIANS.
10:08THIS WAS A MISCONCEPTION,
10:10BECAUSE THE IDEA, WE CAN CONTROL
10:11THE LEVEL OF VIOLENCE BY HAMAS
10:13IS SOMETHING THAT WE DO NOT
10:15UNDERSTAND.
10:17WE, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT
10:18UNDERSTANDING THE IDEA OF HAMAS.
10:22HAMAS IS AN ORGANIZATION, IT'S
10:24NOT ONLY A MILITARY
10:25ORGANIZATION.
10:26HAMAS LEADING AN IDEA OF A
10:30GREATER PALESTINE, FROM THE
10:31JORDAN TO THE SEA, DURING THE
10:33'90s, THEY DID NOT GET SUPPORT
10:36FROM MORE THAN 15% OF THE
10:37PALESTINIANS, BECAUSE FINALLY,
10:38PALESTINIANS WANT A BETTER
10:40FUTURE AND THEY ACCEPT THE
10:44REALITY OF TWO STATES.
10:45SO, THIS WAS EMPOWERING HAMAS,
10:49DECREASING THE POWER OF
10:51PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY ON THE
10:52POLITICAL LEVEL.
10:53ON THE INTELLIGENCE LEVEL,
10:55AGAIN, THE IDEA THAT HAMAS IS
10:58DETERRED WAS A HUGE MISTAKE,
10:59BECAUSE I USED TO SAY, WE
11:03MEASURE HARDWARE AND THEY
11:05MEASURE SOFTWARE.
11:07MEANING, WE SAW AFTER MAY 21
11:09THAT WHEN THEY SUFFERED A MAJOR
11:10DEFEAT ON THE -- ON THE MILITARY
11:14GROUND, BECAUSE THEY LOST MANY
11:15COMBATANTS AND TERROR ACTIVISTS,
11:17AND MILITARY INFRASTRUCTURE, BUT
11:23THEY DON'T CARE.
11:24WHAT THEY DO CARE IS THE SUPPORT
11:25OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, AND
11:26WE SAW THAT AFTER THIS MILITARY
11:31DEFEAT, THE SUPPORT OF THE
11:32PALESTINIAN PEOPLE WAS DOUBLED.
11:36SO, THE IDEA IS THAT HAMAS IS --
11:38THEY WILL NOT ATTACK, YOU KNOW,
11:43BROUGHT US TO BELIEVE THAT THEY
11:45WILL NOT ATTACK.
11:46WE MOVE ALL OUR TROOPS TO THE
11:46WEST BANK AND TO THE NORTH, AND
11:52THIS IS WHAT BROUGHT TO THE
11:56HORRIBLE EVENTS OF THE SEVENTH
11:57OF OCTOBER.
11:58>> MR. AYALON, IT'S REALLY
12:00INTERESTING TO HEAR YOU SORT OF
12:02ANALYZE THIS.
12:03SO, I WANT TO ASK YOU, DO YOU
12:04BELIEVE -- YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT
12:05HAMAS AS AN IDEA.
12:06DO YOU BELIEVE THAT IN THE DAY
12:10AFTER THAT YOU ENVISION, THE TWO
12:12STATES, YOU KNOW, LAESHGSS, ALL
12:13OF THAT, BOTH IN ISRAEL AND ON
12:15THE PALESTINIAN SIDE, THAT
12:17HAMAS, THE IDEA, THE POLITICAL
12:21HAMAS, WILL HAVE ANY ROLE IN A
12:25FUTURE SOLUTION?
12:26OR DO YOU SEE -- GO AHEAD, TELL
12:28ME.
12:29>> NO, NO, OF COURSE.
12:30I MEAN, I CANNOT DESTROY IDEAS.
12:35AND FOR ME, I HAVE TO TALK TO
12:38EVERYBODY WHO ACCEPT THE IDEA OF
12:40TWO STATES.
12:42RIGHT?
12:42HAMAS WANT TO PLAY A POLITICAL
12:44ROLE, THEY WILL HAVE TO AGREE TO
12:48THE -- ALL THE, YOU KNOW -- TO
12:51THE DECISIONS OF THE PLO.
12:54BECAUSE THE PLO IS THE
12:57REPRESENTATIVE OF THE
12:58PALESTINIAN PEOPLE, AND WILL NOT
13:01BE ACCEPTED TO THE PALESTINIAN
13:03PEOPLE UNLESS YOU ACCEPT THE
13:05U.N. RESOLUTIONS, SECURITY
13:07COUNCIL RESOLUTIONS, AND THE
13:07IDEA OF TWO STATES.
13:10WHICH PALESTINIANS, MAJORITY OF
13:12PALESTINIANS, AND MAJORITY OF
13:13ISRAELIS, CAN LIVE WITH.
13:17SO, ONCE YOU ACCEPT THIS
13:19CONCEPT, YOU KNOW, I HAVE TO
13:22REMIND MYSELF AND TO YOU, WE
13:25HAVE ABOUT 50% OF FUNDAMENTALLY
13:32JEWISH SUPREMACY, RACISM,
13:34WHATEVER YOU CALL THEM, THEY
13:36BELIEVE EXACTLY AS HAMAS
13:39BELIEVE, THAT THIS LAND BELONGS
13:40TO GOD, AND WE ARE NOT ALLOWED
13:43TO GIVE IT TO ANYBODY.
13:44AND IT'S THE SAME FOR HAMAS.
13:45YOU KNOW, THEY SPEAK IN THE
13:47LANGUAGE OF ISLAM, AND WE SPEAK
13:49IN THE LANGUAGE OF JUDAISM, BUT
13:53THE TRAGEDY OF THE REGION IS
13:55THAT DURING THE LAST 20, 30
13:58YEARS, THE TWO MINORITIES LED US
14:02TO KILL EACH OTHER.
14:03YOU KNOW, JEWISH TERRORISTS
14:04ASSASSINED OUR PRIME MINISTER
14:07AND PALESTINIAN, HAMAS
14:12TERRORIST, YOU KNOW, KILLED OUR
14:14CIVILIANS.
14:15BUT FINALLY, THERE ARE TWO
14:19MINORI
14:19MINORITIES, LESS THAN 20% OF
14:21BOTH SIDES.
14:22AND WE, THE MAJORITY OF THE TWO
14:24SIDES, WITH THE ROLE, THE MAJOR
14:25ROLE OF THE INTERNATIONAL
14:26COMMUNITY, AND TODAY, ESPECIALLY
14:29TODAY, WHEN, YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT
14:32BIDEN IS PERCEIVED AS AN
14:35ULTIMATE LEADER, BECAUSE HE
14:38FILLED A VACUUM OF LEADERSHIP IN
14:40ISRAEL, AND I BELIEVE THAT HE
14:42HAS AT LEAST IN THE EYES OF THE
14:44ISRAELIS THE POLITICAL POWER TO
14:45LEAD US TO THE RIGHT WAY, AND
14:47THE RIGHT WAY IS THE REALITY OF
14:50TWO STATES.
14:51>> THAT IS SO INTERESTING YOU
14:52SAY THAT, BECAUSE EVERY TIME HE
14:55CAN, PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU
14:56REJECTS ANYTHING THAT PRESIDENT
14:57BIDEN IS SAYING IN THIS REGARD.
14:58BUT ONE FINAL QUESTION, YOU ARE
15:01A FORMER NAVAL, YOU KNOW,
15:02LEADER, AS WELL, AND I WONDER
15:05WHAT YOU THINK, AND HOW YOU
15:06THINK, THE WHOLE SHEBANG IN THAT
15:10AREA, WHETHER IT'S HOUTHIS
15:12FIRING, WHETHER IT'S THE U.S.
15:13AND THE UK TRYING TO STOP THEM
15:15FIRING, WHETHER IT'S JUST, YOU
15:16KNOW, THE IRANIANS AND THEIR
15:19PROXIES AND HEZBOLLAH AND --
15:20WHERE DO YOU SEE THIS HEADING?
15:21ARE YOU AFRAID THAT IT'S REALLY
15:23GOING TO EXPLODE INTO A MUCH
15:24WIDER WAR?
15:26>> I'M WORRIED, I'M NOT AFRAID.
15:30FEAR IS NOT A STRATEGY.
15:31BUT I'M WORRIED.
15:32YOU HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL.
15:35BUT FINALLY, IT IS NOT A
15:37CONFLICT BETWEEN PALESTINIANS
15:38AND ISRAELIS ANYMORE.
15:42ORIGINAL CONFLICT AND IN SOME
15:46ASPECTS, WITH GLOBAL IMPACT.
15:49WE HAVE TO CREATE AN OPPOSITE
15:51COALITION, LED BY EUROPE,
15:53AMERICA, A COALITION OF
15:54STABILITY.
15:56MEANING, U.N., EUROPE, AMERICA,
15:59AND IN THE REGION, LED BY SAUDI
16:03ARABIA, EGYPT, JORDAN, EMIRATES,
16:07MOROCCO, AND ISRAEL, TO CONFRONT
16:09THE AXIS OF INSTABILITY.
16:13AND WHAT WE SEE IS PART OF IT,
16:15BUT THE WHOLE PICTURE, AGAIN, WE
16:16HAVE TO BE PART -- WE, THE
16:19ISRAELIS, HAVE TO BE A
16:20LEGITIMATE MEMBER IN THIS
16:21COALITION OF STABILITY AND WE
16:24CANNOT DO IT UNLESS WE CHOOSE --
16:26WE CHOOSE THE REALITY OF TWO
16:27STATES.
16:28>> I REALLY HEAR YOU, AND I
16:29THINK THAT YOU CLEARLY WANT TO
16:32GET THAT MESSAGE OUT, YOU'VE
16:33DONE ALMOST NO INTERVIEWS SINCE,
16:35IN FACT, I THINK THIS IS YOUR
16:36SECOND INTERVIEW ONLY SINCE
16:38OCTOBER 7th, AND YOU WANT TO
16:41MAKE CLEAR THAT THERE NEEDS TO
16:42BE AN EXIT STRATEGY WITH A
16:44POLITICAL SOLUTION.
16:45CAN I ASK YOU A SLIGHTLY MORE
16:47LOCAL QUESTION?
16:48THERE IS A BIG CRISIS RIGHT NOW
16:50WITH THE U.N. AGENCY THAT HAS
16:52BEEN DESIGNATED TO LOOK AFTER
16:53PALESTINIAN REFUGEES, UNRWA.
16:56AS YOU KNOW, THE U.S. AND OTHERS
17:00HAVE SUSPENDED FUNDING, THE
17:02ISRAELIS HAVE SHARED
17:03INTELLIGENCE, I DON'T KNOW HOW
17:06MANY, BUT MANY ARE -- HAVE BEEN
17:07INVOLVED IN OCTOBER 7th.
17:10SO, THAT IS A HORRIBLE THING,
17:12BUT MY QUESTION TO YOU IS, WHAT
17:14IS THE OPTION TO UNRWA?
17:17IS ISRAEL GOING TO PROVIDE THE
17:19AID?
17:19DOES UNRWA NEED TO BE DISBANDED?
17:22WHAT IS THE FUTURE OF TRYING TO,
17:24YOU KNOW, CATER TO THE NEEDS OF
17:26THE PALESTINIANS IN GAZA?
17:28>> WELL, I TOTALLY -- FIRST OF
17:30ALL, I TOTALLY AGREE WITH, WE
17:31HAVE TO STOP WHAT UNRWA IS DOING
17:36NOW, DURING THE LAST, I DON'T
17:37KNOW, SEVERAL YEARS.
17:39WE JUST SAW IT NOW.
17:40I BELIEVE THAT ISRAEL DO NOT
17:42HAVE ANY INTEREST AND I DON'T
17:45THINK THAT WE HAVE THE, YOU
17:46KNOW, THE LEGITIMACY TO DO IT.
17:49IN THE EYES OF THE PALESTINIANS
17:50OR -- AND IT WOULD NOT BE
17:54SUPPORTED BY THE ISRAELIS.
17:55I THINK THAT THE U.N. HAS THE
17:59SUPPORT OF THE NOTED DONORS, TO
18:02UNRWA, WILL HAVE TO FIND ANOTHER
18:05FRAMEWORK, ORGANIZATION, AND I
18:06KNOW THAT THERE ARE SEVERAL
18:08OTHER INTERNATIONAL
18:08ORGANIZATIONS WHO SHOULD DO IT.
18:15ITSELF, AND WHETHER UNRWA ITSELF
18:17CAN, YOU KNOW, REPAIR THIS
18:18HORRIBLE, YOU KNOW, INTERVENTION
18:22IN WHAT HAPPENED DURING THE
18:23SEVENTH OF OCTOBER, SO I REALLY
18:27BELIEVE THAT WE SHOULD NOT
18:27OPPOSE -- IT IS VERY, VERY
18:29IMPORTANT FOR US THAT PEOPLE --
18:32THAT THE PEOPLE WHO SUFFER IN
18:35GAZA WILL GET THEIR SUPPORT.
18:38THE LAST THING THAT WE CAN SAY
18:39IS THAT WE WANT TO SEE IS A
18:42HUMANITARIAN DISASTER.
18:43AND UNFORTUNATELY, IF WE DO NOT
18:47DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT THAT IS
18:48EXACTLY WHAT WE SHALL SEE.
18:49>> AMI AYALON, THANK YOU SO MUCH
18:51FOR JOINING US.
18:52>> THANK YOU.
18:55>>> AND AS PRIME MINISTER
18:56NETANYAHU CONTINUES TO RESIST
18:57THE IDEA OF A PALESTINIAN STATE,
19:00ISRAEL'S ALLIES KEEP APPLYING
19:01THE PRESSURE.
19:03BRITAIN'S FOREIGN SECRETARY
19:04DAVID CAMERON HAS EVEN SAID
19:06THEY'LL CONSIDER RECOGNIZING A
19:07PALESTINIAN STATE.
19:08A MOVE HE BELIEVES WOULD HELP
19:09MAKE A TWO-STATE SOLUTION,
19:11QUOTE, AN IRREVERSIBLE PROCESS
19:12TO END THIS WAR.
19:14THE UK IS ALSO PLAYING A KEY
19:16ROLE DEFENDING THE RED SEA
19:17AGAINST THE HOUTHIS.
19:19CAMERON IS CURRENTLY ON HIS
19:20FOURTH VISIT TO THE MIDDLE EAST,
19:22CONSOLIDATING BRITAIN'S ROLE AS
19:24A KEY U.S. ALLY IN THIS CRISIS.
19:27ALICIA KEARNS IS CHAIR OF THE UK
19:29FOREIGN AFFAIRS COMMITTEE IN
19:31PARLIAMENT AND RECENTLY RETURNED
19:32FROM A VISIT TO WASHINGTON AND
19:33SHE'S JOINING ME NOW LIVE IN THE
19:35STUDIO.
19:35WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
19:36>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.
19:37>> LET ME FIRST ASK YOU ABOUT
19:42WHAT FOREIGN SECRETARY, FORMER
19:45PRIME MINISTER, HE'S KNOWN
19:45AROUND THE GLOBE AND HE DOESN'T
19:46SAY THINGS OFF THE CUFF.
19:48AND HE SAID IT TO A PRIVATE
19:50RECEPTION OF ARAB DIPLOMATS.
19:51CAN YOU TELL US, WERE YOU
19:53SURPRISED THAT YOUR GOVERNMENT
19:56IN THE FORM OF THE FOREIGN
19:57MINISTER WENT THIS FAR?
19:59IT'S THE FIRST TIME THAT THE
20:00BRITISH HAVE EVER SAID THAT.
20:01>> SO, I HAVEN'T EXPECTED IT AND
20:04I DON'T THINK MANY PEOPLE CAN
20:06SAY THEY HAD.
20:06FOR ME, WE'VE SEEN A REAL CHANGE
20:08IN TONE, ATTITUDE, AND BEHAVIOR
20:10FROM THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT
20:11SINCE DAVID CAMERON CAME BACK AS
20:12FOREIGN SECRETARY.
20:13AND HE WOULD HAVE KNOWN
20:15FULL-WELL THE WEIGHT OF THOSE
20:16WORDS THAT HE SAID ONLY LAST
20:17NIGHT, NIGHT BEFORE.
20:19THE QUESTION IS, DOES HE MEAN
20:21IT, ARE WE MOVING THAT THAT, OR
20:26ARE WE SAYING TO THE ISRAELIS,
20:27WE WILL MOVE THIS PLACE THAT YOU
20:29DON'T WANT US TO, BUT I THINK
20:31IT'S THE RIGHT MOVE.
20:32AND I THINK IN THE SAME WAY,
20:34ANYONE THAT WOULD DENY ISRAEL'S
20:38STATEHOOD SHOULD BE CONDEMNED,
20:42ANYONE THAT WOULD DENY
20:43PALESTINIAN STATEHOOD SHOULD
20:44ALSO BE CONDEMNED.
20:45>> THIS IS WHAT HE'S WRITTEN IN
20:47"THE MAIL" ON SUNDAY.
20:48WE MUST GIVE PEOPLE OF THE WEST
20:50BANK AND GAZA THE POLITICAL
20:51PERSPECTIVE OF A CREDIBLE ROUTE
20:53TO A PALESTINIAN STATE AND A NEW
20:56FUTURE.
20:57THIS IS NOT ENTIRELY IN OUR
20:59GIFT, BUT BRITAIN AND OUR
21:00PARTNERS CAN HELP BY CONFIRMING
21:01OUR COMMITMENT TO A SOVEREIGN,
21:04VIABLE, PALESTINIAN STATE, AND
21:05OUR VISION FOR ITS COMPOSITION.
21:07AND CRUCIALLY, WE MUST STATE OUR
21:09CLEAR INTENTION TO GRANT IT
21:11RECOGNITION, INCLUDING AT THE
21:12UNITED NATIONS.
21:14SO, AS I'VE BEEN SAYING, YOU
21:15KNOW, THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER
21:17PUBLICLY HAS BEEN, YOU KNOW,
21:18SAYING NO, WE DON'T WANT THAT.
21:19BUT JUST, FOR PEOPLE THAT DON'T
21:22UNDERSTAND THE SUBTLETY OF WHAT
21:24CAMERON HAS SAID, BECAUSE
21:25GENERALLY, THE WEST ACCEPTS A
21:28TWO-STATE SOLUTION.
21:29WHAT'S THE MISSING PIECE THAT
21:30HE'S FITTING IN NOW?
21:31>> THE MISSING PIECE IS GIVING
21:36,
21:37RECOGNIZING PALESTINIAN
21:39STATEHOOD.
21:39SO, WHAT HE'S SAYING --
21:40>> UNITED STATES HAVEN'T.
21:41>> THE UNITED STATES ABSOLUTELY
21:42HAVEN'T.
21:42SO, WHAT HE'S SAYING IS FULL
21:44RECOGNITION, NOT JUST BEEN THE
21:46UK, BUT HE'S SAYING THE UK WILL
21:47LEAD AN EFFORT AT THE U.N. TO
21:49SEE THEM RECOGNIZED, AND THAT
21:51MUST MEAN THAT HE'S HAD A
21:52CONVERSATION WITH THE UNITED
21:53STATES BEHIND THE SCENES,
21:55BECAUSE WE WOULD NEED THEM TO
21:56COME ALONGSIDE.
21:57SO, I THINK IT'S A BIG
21:59ANNOUNCEMENT.
21:59IT'S A BIG POLICY SHIFT.
22:02AND THAT WILL HAVE A VERY STRONG
22:03IMPACT ON ALL INTERNATIONAL
22:04RELATIONS GOING ON.
22:05BUT IT'S THE SORT OF BIG SHIFT I
22:06WANT THE UK TO BE LEADING ON.
22:08WE ARE GOOD AT HARD CORE
22:10DIPLOMACY, WE HAVE THE RIGHT
22:11PEOPLE TO BE DELIVERING THAT
22:12MESSAGE.
22:12>> AND JUST TO POINT OUT, IT'S
22:15THE FIRST TIME, AND THE PLO
22:17REPRESENTATIVE HERE, IN OTHER
22:18WORDS, THE GROUP THAT ACTUALLY
22:20RECOGNIZES ISRAEL, THE
22:22PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, HE SAYS,
22:23THIS IS A VERY SIGNIFICANT
22:25MOMENT, IN RELATION TO WHAT
22:26CAMERON SAID.
22:26THIS IS THE FIRST TIME A UK
22:28FOREIGN SECRETARY DOES SAY THAT
22:30THE RECOGNITION OF THE STATE OF
22:32PALESTINE IS NOT LINKED TO A
22:34FINAL AGREEMENT WITH ISRAEL, IE,
22:36FINALLY REMOVING ISRAEL'S VETO
22:38OVER PALESTINIAN STATEHOOD.
22:40IS THAT A CORRECT
22:42INTERPRETATION?
22:42I MEAN, YOU'VE GOT TO HAVE
22:43ISRAELI BUY-IN, DON'T YOU?
22:45>> SO, WE DO NEED ISRAELI
22:47BUY-IN, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, NO
22:48STATE HAS THE RIGHT TO DETERMINE
22:51THE SOVEREIGNTY OF ANOTHER, AND
22:52THAT UNFORTUNATELY IS THE
22:54POSITION WE'RE IN.
22:56WE CAN'T ALLOW ISRAEL TO SAY
22:57THAT THE PALESTINIANS HAVE NO
22:59RIGHT TO THEIR OWN HOMELAND.
23:00IF WE BELIEVE IN A TWO-STATE
23:02SOLUTION, IT FOLLOWS THAT WE
23:05RECOGNIZE AND WILL RECOGNIZE
23:06PALESTINIAN STATEHOOD, BUT THAT
23:07SECOND PIECE HAS BEEN MISSING
23:08FROM THE PUZZLE.
23:09SO, THIS IS AN ENORMOUS SHIFT.
23:12AND NOW LET'S HOPE THAT WE SEE
23:14OTHER PARTNERS AROUND THE WORLD
23:15MOVE IN THE SAME WAY.
23:16>> IT'S REALLY INTERESTING,
23:17BECAUSE IT SEEMS TO BE ALMOST
23:18COMING TO A HEAD IN THE LAST
23:20COUPLE OF WEEKS, THE AMERICANS
23:21ARE TALKING ABOUT IT, CAMERON
23:23HAS ADVANCED IT, THE EUROPEANS,
23:25AND EVEN ISRAELIS WHO ARE NOT IN
23:27THE GOVERNMENT, YOU JUST HEARD
23:29FORMER SHIN BET CHIEF AMI
23:31AYALON, HE BASICALLY SAID, WE
23:33CAN'T EVEN JUDGE WHAT'S GOING TO
23:34HAPPEN NEXT, BECAUSE WE HAVE NOT
23:35HAD AN EXIT PLAN DELIVERED BY
23:37THE GOVERNMENT.
23:38AND THE ONLY THING THAT IS GOING
23:39TO MAKE ISRAEL AND PALESTINIANS
23:41SAFE, SECURE, AND ELIMINATE
23:44ANYTHING LIKE OCTOBER 7th AGAIN
23:46IS A POLITICAL RESOLUTION AND A
23:48TWO-STATE SOLUTION.
23:49SO, THAT'S ALSO GAINING A LOT OF
23:51TRACTION IN CERTAIN QUARTERS IN
23:52ISRAEL.
23:52>> I SUSPECT ACTUALLY IN QUITE
23:55SIGNIFICANT QUARTERS WITHIN
23:56ISRAEL.
23:57THIS WAS A GOVERNMENT WHO, FOR
23:58WHAT, 37, 38 WEEKS, HAD 100,000
24:01PEOPLE, ISRAELIS, OUT ON THE
24:02STREETS, CAMPAIGNING AGAINST
24:04NETANYAHU.
24:05THIS IS THE MOST ULTRA FAR RIGHT
24:09GOVERNMENT WE'VE SEEN IN ISRAEL
24:10FOR A LONG TIME.
24:11SO, THERE'S REALLY NO SURPRISE
24:12THERE'S A REAL SHIFT WHEN IT
24:13COMES TO THIS.
24:14BUT IN TERMS OF THAT DIPLOMATIC
24:17WILL, TOO MANY CONVERSATIONS
24:18I'VE BEEN HAVE BEEN ABOUT THE
24:19DAY AFTER, NOT HOW WE GET TO THE
24:20DAY AFTER.
24:22>> YEAH.
24:22>> AND THIS TAKES US TO A BETTER
24:24PLACE OF UNDERSTANDING HOW WE
24:25SHIFT THAT WAY, AS WELL AS, AND
24:26I'M REALLY PLEASED, BECAUSE I'VE
24:28BEEN ASKING DAVID CAMERON TO DO
24:29THIS SINCE NOVEMBER, PROGRESS
24:31TOWARDS A PALESTINIAN CONTACT
24:32GROUP.
24:32>> WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
24:33>> SO, ESSENTIALLY, BRINGING
24:35PAST COHORT OF INTERNATIONAL
24:36PARTNERS, WE'RE LOOKING AT THE
24:37U.S., THE UK, THE EU, AND
24:40PARTICULARLY ARAB COUNTRIES,
24:41THIS HAS TO BE AN ARAB-LED
24:43SOLUTION, WHO COME TOGETHER.
24:44I WORKED IN THE SYRIA CONTACT
24:47GROUP.
24:47BUT FOR ME, WHAT WE HAVEN'T SEEN
24:48YET THAT I WOULD LOVE TO SEE IS
24:51THOSE TRACK TO NEGOTIATIONS.
24:53ACTIVISTS, ACADEMICS, WOMEN,
24:54YOUNG PEOPLE, TAKE THE
24:55POLITICIANS OUT THE ROOM, I KNOW
24:56AS A POLITICIAN IT MAY SOUND
24:58IRONIC THAT I'M SAYING THAT, BUT
24:59BRING TOGETHER THOSE TWO GROUPS
25:03OF PEOPLE WHO WILL TALK ABOUT
25:03WHAT THEIR VISION IS FOR THE FEW
25:07FUTURE, WITHOUT POLITICIANS WHO
25:08ARE REALLY PERFORMING FOR A VERY
25:10NARROW BASE.
25:11>> I WANT TO READ YOU A QUOTE
25:12THAT I KEEP COMING BACK TO, AND
25:13FOR ME, IT'S THE HEART OF THE
25:15ISSUE.
25:16IT ESSENTIALLY IS THE CHIEF
25:18PALESTINIAN NEGOTIATOR AND THE
25:19CHIEF ISRAELI NEGOTIATOR AROUND
25:21OSLO.
25:22AND AT ONE OF THE MEETINGS, THE
25:24PALESTINIAN SAID, WE HAVE
25:28LEARNED THAT OUR REJECTION OF
25:31YOU, TOWARDS HIS ISRAELI
25:32COUNTERPART, WILL NOT BRING US
25:33FREEDOM.
25:34YOU CAN SEE THAT YOUR CONTROL OF
25:36US WILL NOT BRING YOU SECURITY.
25:38WE MUST LIVE SIDE-BY-SIDE IN
25:40PEACE, EQUALITY, AND
25:42COOPERATION.
25:42SO, THAT WAS, YOU KNOW, BACK,
25:43YOU KNOW, IN THE MID '90s.
25:46AND IT'S STILL THE TRUTH,
25:48CORRECT?
25:48I MEAN --
25:49>> YEAH.
25:49>> DO YOU SEE ANY OTHER WAY TO
25:53BRING ISRAEL THE SECURITY IT
25:55NEEDS AND THE PALESTINIANS THE
25:57FREEDOM AND THE STATEHOOD THEY
25:59NEED, BECAUSE EVEN YESTERDAY,
26:01PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU WAS OUT
26:02IN THE WEST BANK, HE WAS SAYING,
26:04NEVER GOING TO AGREE TO THIS
26:05DEAL.
26:06>> YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
26:07AND IT IS HEARTBREAKING THAT
26:08SOMETHING CAN BE SO PRESENT
26:10TODAY THAT WAS BEING SAID IN THE
26:111990s.
26:12YOU CANNOT BOMB AN IDEOLOGY OUT
26:15OF EXISTENCE.
26:17THE ONLY WAY THAT YOU REDUCE THE
26:20RADICALIZING NARRATIVE, AND THE
26:21TREATMENT OF THE PALESTINIANS
26:22HAS BEEN THE NUMBER ONE
26:25RADICALIZING NARRATIVE FOR EVERY
26:26GROUP IN THE WORLD THAT COME
26:27FROM AN ISLAMIC BACKGROUND, WE
26:28HAVE TO HAVE LONG-TERM SECURITY
26:32AND PEACE.
26:32BUT IT'S NOW TO JUST ABOUT THE
26:34DIPLOMATIC.
26:35HOW ISRAEL PROSECUTES THIS WAR,
26:36AND I WISH THEY'D CALL IT A
26:38COUNTERTERRORISM OPERATION, HOW
26:39THEY PROSECUTE IT WILL ALSO
26:40DETERMINE THAT STABILITY.
26:41WHICH IS WHY WE NEED TO SEE SUCH
26:43A SHIFT IN THE LANGUAGE.
26:44WE CONTINUE TO SEE FROM THE
26:46ISRAELIS, IT'S NOT BRINGING US
26:49CLOSER TO A SOLUTION WHERE THERE
26:50IS STABILITY FOR ALL.
26:51>> WHAT IS HAPPENING AS FAR AS
26:52YOU KNOW INSIDE GAZA?
26:53I KNOW BRITAIN HAS SOME
26:55HUMANITARIAN ACTIVITY THERE,
26:56YOU'RE TRYING YOUR BEST.
26:57YOU HAVE JUST PUBLICIZED
27:00SOMETHING THAT WAS LITTLE KNOWN,
27:01AND THAT IS, WITHIN OF YOUR
27:03HOSPITALS WAS ATTACKED?
27:04>> YEAH.
27:05SO, THERE'S A UK CHARITY,
27:08THEY'VE BEEN DELIVERING ON THE
27:13GROUND AND BRINGING IN BRITISH
27:15DOCTORS.
27:15ON THE 22nd OF DECEMBER, MAP
27:18TOLD THE UK DEFENSE FORCES AND
27:19CONFIRMED IT THAT THEY HAD THIS
27:22BUILDING IN A SAFE ZONE, THE
27:24ISRAELIS DECLARED IT A SAFE
27:25ZONE, AND YET, DESPITE HAVING
27:27BEEN TOLD BY THE IDF, VIA THE UK
27:32DEFENSE ATTACHCE THAT IT WAS A
27:35SAVE ZONE, ON THE 16th OF
27:36JANUARY, IT WAS BOMBED BY AN
27:39F-16 ISRAELI JET AND THERE WERE
27:41FOUR BRITISH DOCTORS INSIDE.
27:43NOW, WE ARE VERY LUCKY THEY WERE
27:45HURT AND NOT KILLED.
27:46BUT OBVIOUSLY, AS YOU CAN
27:47IMAGINE, MAP HAVE NOW HAD TO
27:49REMOVE THEIR OPERATIONS.
27:50THE IRC SHARED THAT SITE, SO,
27:52I'D BE SPEAKING TO DAVID ABOUT
27:54THIS, WHO IS VERY CONCERNED.
27:55BOTH MAP AND THE IRC ARE SAYING,
27:57WE CANNOT TAKE ANY FOREIGN
27:59DOCTORS BACK INTO GAZA NOW.
28:00IT IS NOT SAFE.
28:01BECAUSE DESPITE THE IDF GIVING
28:03US REASSURANCES THAT THIS SITE,
28:05COMPLETELY ISOLATED, NO
28:06NEIGHBORING BUILDINGS AROUND IT,
28:08IT'S SURROUNDED BY SAND, THERE'S
28:09NO FEASIBILITY THAT THERE WERE
28:11TUNNELS UNDERNEATH, DESPITE
28:13HAVING CONFIRMATION, IT WAS
28:14STILL BOMBED.
28:15>> AND DID YOU -- YOU KNOW, DID
28:17YOU BRING THIS UP WITH THE IDF?
28:19>> SO, I RAISED IT SO FAR WITH
28:20OUR GOVERNMENT AND I'VE SAID TO
28:22ANDREW MITCHELL, THE DEPUTY
28:23FOREIGN SECRETARY, WHAT ARE WE
28:27DOING ABOUT THIS?
28:27I KNOW IT'S BEEN RAISED WITH THE
28:29ISRAELIS.
28:29THE ISRAELIS ARE SAYING THEY'LL
28:30DO AN INVESTIGATION.
28:31I THINK NOW IS THE TIME FOR THE
28:32UK TO BE VERY CLEAR, THAT TIME
28:35HAS PASSED.
28:35THE U.N. ARE MEANT TO BE DOING
28:37AN INVESTIGATION.
28:38I'D LIKE TO SEE THE RESULTS OF
28:40THAT, AS WELL.
28:40BUT IT'S DIFFICULT TO SEE HOW
28:42THIS CAN BE JUSTIFIED.
28:44A SAFE ZONE, DeMAR KATED
28:46HUMANITARIAN BUILDING, UK AND
28:49U.S. CHARITIES.
28:49>> AND WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
28:52WE KNOW HOW DIRE THE SITUATION
28:53IS, WE GET REPORTS FROM OUR
28:56PRODUCERS AND CORRESPONDENTS IN
28:57THE REGION WHO ARE ABLE TO CALL
28:59INTO GAZA, GET PICTURES, TALK
29:01ABOUT THE HEALTH CRISIS THERE.
29:02THE HUMANITARIAN CRISIS.
29:04WHAT DOES IT MEAN NOT TO HAVE
29:06THOSE BRITISH DOCTORS THERE?
29:07>> IT'S AN ENORMOUS CRISIS,
29:09BECAUSE IT MEANS IS FOUR FEWER
29:11DOCTORS AND IT'S NOT JUST THOSE
29:13FOUR, THEY HAVE WITHDRAWN ALL
29:14THEIR FOREIGN STAFF WHO WERE
29:16PROVIDING URGENT MEDICAL AID AND
29:18EXPERTISE.
29:18ALL OF THEM HAVE BEEN WITHDRAWN.
29:20AND THEY CANNOT PUT THEM BACK,
29:21BECAUSE THEY CANNOT TRUST THAT
29:22ANY OF THEIR STAFF WILL BE SAFE.
29:23SO, YOU HAVE NO FOREIGN STAFF
29:25FROM THOSE CHARITIES CURRENTLY
29:26ON THE GROUND, CERTAINLY FROM
29:28MAP.
29:28SO, THEY NEED THE REASSURANCES
29:30THEY CAN OPERATE AGAIN, BECAUSE
29:31THEY ARE DESPERATE TO GO BACK IN
29:33AND HELP.
29:34BUT IN TERMS OF ISRAELI
29:36TARGETING, AND I HAVE RAISED
29:40THIS, WHAT ARE THE TARGETING
29:42PROSEE SURCEDURES ARE THE
29:48ISRAELIS FOLLOWING?
29:49THIS TARGET, THE SPECIFICS, HOW
29:51COULD THEY HAVE SIGNED THAT OFF?
29:53WE KNOW LAWYERS SIT IN THE ROOM
29:54FOR EVERY SINGLE AIR STRIKE, SO,
29:56WHAT LAWYER SIGNED THIS OFF?
29:57>> SO, YOU SPEAK AS A BRITISH
30:00PARLIAMENTARY, YOU KNOW,
30:01COMMITTEE HEAD, THIS IS NOT JUST
30:03ME TALKING TO AN ANALYST.
30:05HOW MUCH DOES IT TROUBLE YOU
30:08THAT THE ISRAELIS HAVE A MAJOR
30:10PROBLEM WITH UNRWA, THE U.N.
30:12ORGANIZATION THAT IS DESIGNED TO
30:13HELP WITH RELIEF IN GAZA, FOR
30:16THE PALESTINIANS?
30:17THAT THEY HAVE SHARED
30:18INTELLIGENCE AND THE BRITS HAVE
30:21SUSPENDED FUNDING, THAT A
30:22CERTAIN NUMBER OF THEM, WE DON'T
30:24KNOW HOW MANY, THEY SAID 12
30:26FIRST, NOW MAYBE 10% OF THE
30:2713,000 MEMBERS, ARE HAMAS AND
30:29SOME OF THEM, SOME 12 OR SO,
30:31ACTUALLY CONTRIBUTED, OPERATED,
30:37CONDUCTED, REALLY TERRIBLE
30:38THINGS ON OCTOBER 7th.
30:40>> IF UNRWA STAFF COMMITTED
30:42ANYTHING TO THOSE CRIMES AGAINST
30:44HUMANITY, THAT IS AN ENORMOUS
30:46BETRAYAL OF TRUST.
30:47NOT LEAST OF THE U.N., BUT FOR
30:48THEIR FELLOW PALESTINIANS.
30:50HOW DARE THEY PUT AT RISK AN
30:52ORGANIZATION THAT'S WORKING TO
30:53BRING AID?
30:54THE STATE DEPARTMENT SAID ONLY
30:56TODAY, NO ORGANIZATION IS BETTER
30:57PLACED AT DELIVERING AID MORE
30:59EFFECTIVELY THAN UNRWA.
31:01THEY SAID THEY WILL RUN OUT OF
31:02AID BY THE END OF FEBRUARY IF
31:04THEY DO NOT GET MORE SUPPORT,
31:05BECAUSE THEY'VE BEEN DEFUNDED.
31:07I RAISED THIS QUESTION MYSELF
31:08WITH THE HEAD IN NOVEMBER WHEN I
31:10MET WITH HIM IN PERSON, AND I
31:12CHALLENGED HIM ON THE SECURITY
31:13CLEARANCES AND CHECKS THEY WERE
31:14DOING FOR THEIR STAFF.
31:15HE WAS CONFIDENT THAT THERE WERE
31:16REGULAR CHECKS TAKING PLACE,
31:18BECAUSE THIS IS A QUESTION THAT
31:19THE BRITISH PARLIAMENT HAS BEEN
31:20DISCUSSING FOR AWHILE, AROUND
31:22TEXTBOOKS AND JUST DELIVERY OF
31:24AID AND PARTICIPATION WITH
31:24HAMAS.
31:26THEY ARE OPERATING A VERY
31:28DIFFICULT ENVIRONMENT, BUT
31:29THAT'S WHY THE U.N. NEEDS TO
31:30FINISH THIS INVESTIGATION AS
31:31QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE, MAKE SURE
31:32IT IS INDEPENDENT, AS WE
31:34UNDERSTAND IT WILL BE, AND THEN
31:35WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT AID IS
31:36GETTING BACK INTO GAZA,
31:37BECAUSE --
31:38>> AND THE CHARGES ARE REALLY
31:40SERIOUS.
31:40AGAINST THAT DOZEN.
31:41>> THEY ARE ABSOLUTELY SERIOUS.
31:42AND IF THOSE PEOPLE ARE GUILTY,
31:44THEY NEED TO BE -- GO THROUGH A
31:47CRIMINAL PROSECUTION, BUT THE
31:48PROBLEM IS, IF UNRWA ISN'T THERE
31:50DELIVERING AID AND THE STATE
31:51DEPARTMENT SAID NO ONE ELSE CAN
31:52PICK UP THAT SPACE IN THE WAY
31:53THEY WERE, WE RISK BEING, I
31:56BELIEVE, IN BREACH OF OUR ICJ
31:57INTERIM RULING, WHICH SAID THAT
31:59ISRAEL HAS TO ALLOW SUFFICIENT
32:00AID IN, AND THERE ARE
32:02REPERCUSSIONS FOR ALL OF US WITH
32:03OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO PROTECT,
32:04BUT ALSO, THERE IS AN ACTIVE
32:06CRISIS GOING ON ON THE GROUND.
32:07WE CANNOT ALLOW COLLECTIVE
32:09PUNISHMENT AND CANNOT ALLOW
32:10PEOPLE NOT TO GET THE AID THEY
32:11NEED.
32:11SO, WE'RE IN A VERY DIFFICULT
32:13POSITION.
32:14WE HAVE NO TRUCK FOR THOSE WHO
32:15HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH HAMAS OR
32:18DEFENDED THEM, BUT WE DO NEED TO
32:19GET AID IN, AND THE ENTIRE
32:21ORGANIZATION IS NOT BROKEN, I
32:22THINK IT'S IMPORTANT WE DON'T
32:24ALLOW CERTAIN NARRATIVES FROM
32:25THOSE WHO WANT TO PUSH THAT TO
32:26ACHIEVE.
32:27>> ON A DIFFERENT ISSUE, BUT
32:27EQUALLY IMPORTANT, THE
32:32UKRAINIANS CONTINUE TO ATTEMPT
32:32TO DEFEND THEMSELVES AGAINST
32:34RUSSIA'S INVASION.
32:35YOU'VE JUST COME BACK FROM THE
32:36UNITED STATES.
32:37DID YOU GET ANY SENSE THAT THE
32:40POLITICIANS IN THE HOUSE ARE
32:42GOING TO, YOU KNOW, UNFREEZE
32:43THIS MILITARY AID?
32:45>> SO, I CAME BACK WITH A
32:47SLIGHTLY COMPLICATED PICTURE,
32:49WHICH WAS MORE SUPPORT FROM
32:50UKRAINE THAN YOU MIGHT BELIEVE
32:51FROM THE OUTSIDE, AND I THOUGHT
32:52IT WAS INTERESTING, ALL OF US
32:57WITH A MESSAGE THAT WE, IN OUR
32:59COUNTRIES, OUR POLITICAL
33:02SYSTEMS, THINK YOU'RE GOING TO
33:02CASH OUT, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO
33:04STAND BEHIND UKRAINE.
33:06ACTUALLY SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE
33:08REMAINS INCREDIBLY HIGH ON THE
33:09HILL, HOWEVER, THEY ARE WILLING
33:11TO EXCHANGE THAT SUPPORT FOR
33:12THEIR DOMESTIC POLITICAL
33:14ARGUMENTS, AND THIS IS ALL ABOUT
33:15THE BORDER.
33:16THEY DON'T WANT MORE MONEY FROM
33:18BIDEN, THEY WANT A CHANGE IN
33:19POLICY ON THE BORDER WHEN IT
33:22COMES FOR IMMIGRATION.
33:22SO, I WAS LEFT WITH MORE
33:24CONFIDENCE THEY SUPPORT UKRAINE,
33:27BUT THE FACT THAT THEY'RE
33:28WILLING TO COMPROMISE THAT FOR
33:29PERSONAL GAIN, THAT IS NOT
33:31SOMETHING YOU COULD SEE IN THE
33:32UK.
33:32>> THAT'S INTERESTING.
33:34I'M GOING TO ASK YOU A BIT MORE
33:35ABOUT THAT.
33:35BECAUSE TODAY, ALSO, THE HEAD OF
33:38THE -- NATO IS THERE, THE
33:38SECRETARY-GENERAL, WHICH IS WHAT
33:39HE SAID ABOUT THIS FREEZING OF
33:41THE AID.
33:43>> I SAW BROAD SUPPORT FOR
33:45UKRAINE, BUT THEN, OF COURSE,
33:47THERE'S THIS LINK TO THE BORDER
33:48ISSUE, WHICH I RESPECT, IT'S AN
33:50IMPORTANT AND DIFFICULT ISSUE,
33:52BUT I BELIEVE IT'S POSSIBLE TO
33:53FIND A WAY FORWARD TO SUPPORT
33:55UKRAINE.
33:55>> CAN I JUST SAY, WHAT YOU'RE
33:57SAYING AND WHAT HE'S SAYING
33:58REMINDS ME, AND I JUST HAD A
34:00FLASHBACK, OF WHAT EUROPEAN
34:01LEADERS TRIED TO PERSUADE TRUMP
34:03ABOUT THE IRAN NUCLEAR DEAL AND
34:05THE CLIMATE DEAL.
34:06THEY TRIED TO PERSUADE HIM NOT
34:07TO PULL OUT AND THEY THOUGHT
34:09THAT THEY COULD -- AND YOU ALL
34:10THOUGHT THAT YOU WOULD TALK
34:12SENSE, BUT IT'S MAGA AND THE
34:14TRUMP WING THAT ARE STOPPING
34:15THIS, RIGHT?
34:15I MEAN, BY AND LARGE.
34:16>> YEAH.
34:17>> LINKING IT.
34:18YOU KNOW, WHAT IS GOING TO BE
34:19THE RESULT IF UKRAINE -- I MEAN,
34:21YOU'RE SEEING WHAT'S HAPPENING
34:22ON THE GROUND IN UKRAINE.
34:23HOW DO YOU ASSESS WHAT'S
34:24HAPPENING ON THE GROUND?
34:25>> ONE OF MY MESSAGES, A FEW
34:27MESSAGES TO AMERICANS, ONE IS,
34:28WE ARE WITH YOU.
34:29YOU ARE NOT ON YOUR OWN.
34:30AND WHAT WAS AMAZING TO ME WAS
34:32THE ABSENCE OF UNDERSTANDING
34:33THAT EUROPE HAS COMMITTED $160
34:36BILLION OF SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE,
34:37YOU KNOW, ESTONIA'S GIVEN ALL OF
34:39ITS HOWITZERS.
34:42SO, IN TERMS OF COST, THAT COST
34:44TO EUROPE, LET ALONE WITH THE
34:46REFUGEE SUPPORT, IS FAR MORE
34:48SIGNIFICANT.
34:48SECONDLY, THE THREAT OF PUTIN
34:50SEEMS TO HAVE DROPPED OFF THE
34:51POLITICAL NARRATIVE IN THE U.S.
34:52YOU MENTIONED IRAN, YOU
34:55MENTIONED CHINA, YOU CAN PASS
34:57ANY LEGISLATION YOU WANT AND THE
34:58COMMITMENT IS THERE.
34:59SO, WE WERE TRYING TO REMIND
35:00THEM OF THE THREAT OF PUTIN.
35:02ORGANIZATIONS LIKE THE HERITAGE
35:03FOUNDATION DRAFTING TRUMP'S
35:05MANIFESTO, THEY HAVE BEEN
35:07STEADFASTLY ANTI-PUTIN ALL THIS
35:09TIME.
35:09WHERE HAS THAT GONE?
35:10>> AND HAS IT GONE?
35:12>> IT'S SIGNIFICANTLY
35:13DISAPPEARED.
35:14>> THAT IS INTERESTING.
35:16>> AND THE FINAL ARGUMENT,
35:17UKRAINE IS MAKING PROGRESS.
35:18THEY HAVE MADE ENORMOUS PROGRESS
35:20SINCE SEPTEMBER, BECAUSE THEY
35:21ARE UP AGAINST THE SECOND OR
35:23THIRD BIGGEST MILITARY IN THE
35:24WORLD, THEY ARE A SMALL COUNTRY,
35:27THEY ARE DOING INCREDIBLE JOB.
35:29AND I REJECT THIS ALMOST
35:31DISNEY-ESQUE HERO STORY THAT'S
35:33BEEN PRODUCED WHERE YOU HEAR
35:34AMERICANS SAY, UKRAINE NEEDS TO
35:36SHOW ME SOME PROGRESS.
35:36NO, THEY DON'T.
35:38ON A MORAL LEVEL, ON A LEGAL
35:39LEVEL, OR ANYTHING ELSE.
35:40UKRAINE HAS NO DUTY TO SHOW
35:42PROGRESS TO YOU OR TO ME, THEY
35:44DON'T NEED TO PROVE THEMSELVES.
35:45THEY ARE A SOVEREIGN COUNTRY
35:50INVADED.
35:51WE NEED TO GIVE THEM ENOUGH NOT
35:52TO SURVIVE, BUT TO WIN.
35:54AND WHAT I WAS PLEASED WITH IS
35:55THAT LAST YEAR WE WENT AND WE
35:56ASKED THEM TO GIVE A YEAR-LONG
35:59SUPPLEMENT AM.
35:59THEY'VE NOW GOT A YEAR-LONG
36:01SUPPLEMENTAL, BUT THEY NEED TO
36:02PASS IT.
36:08>> ALICIA KEARNS, THANK YOU FOR
36:10JOINING US.
36:11>>> THE CRISIS THAT'S BEFALLEN
36:13THE PEOPLE OF GAZA HAVE
36:15GALVANIZED THE WORLD, ESPECIALLY
36:17YOUNG PEOPLE, IN AMERICA AND
36:18ELSEWHERE.
36:18AS HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF
36:22PALESTINIANS FLEA THEIR HOMES.
36:24REVEREND FREDERICK HAYNES AND
36:26BLACK PASTORS ACROSS THE UNITED
36:28STATES HAVE BEEN LOBBYING FOR A
36:30CEASE-FIRE, THROUGH OPEN LETTERS
36:31AND IN MEETINGS WITH WHITE HOUSE
36:33OFFICIALS, AND HAYNES NOW SPEAKS
36:35TO MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT THE
36:36IMPACT THIS COULD HAVE ON
36:38PALESTINIANS AND ON U.S.
36:39POLITICS.
36:43>> REVEREND HAYNES, THANK YOU SO
36:44MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US.
36:45>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
36:46THANK YOU.
36:46>> YOU ARE THE SENIOR PASTOR OF
36:48A FAIRLY LARGE CONGREGATION IN
36:51DALLAS, WOULD YOU JUST TELL US A
36:53LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO
36:54ARE PART OF YOUR CONGREGATION?
36:56>> YES, WE HAVE A CONGREGATION
36:59IN EXCESS OF 10,000 TO 12,000
37:04MEMBERS.
37:04ON SUNDAYS, WE WILL SEE ANYWHERE
37:05FROM 2,000 TO 4,000, AND THAT'S
37:10NOT TO MENTION THE ONLINE
37:12VIEWERSHIP, WHICH IS MUCH MORE,
37:14SO -- IT'S A GROWING
37:17CONGREGATION, IT'S ALSO A YOUNG
37:19CONGREGATION, AND A VIBRANT
37:25CONGREGATION THAT IS COMMUNITY
37:26CONSCIOUS AND VERY MUCH IN TUNE
37:28WITH THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN
37:30JESUS AND JUSTICE.
37:31>> SO, I'M GOING TO ASK YOU TO
37:32GO BACK TO OCTOBER 7th.
37:36DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT YOU
37:37PREACHED ON THAT SUNDAY?
37:38BECAUSE I WOULD IMAGINE,
37:40ESPECIALLY GIVEN THE
37:41CONGREGATION THAT YOU HAVE, THEY
37:43WOULD EXPECT TO HEAR FROM YOU.
37:47>> I DO REMEMBER THE THEME, AND
37:48MY INTENT, AND THAT WAS TO
37:49PROVIDE SOME KIND OF BALANCE.
37:53ON THE ONE HAND, I WANTED TO
37:53ENSURE THAT COMFORT WAS PROVIDED
37:59TO THE VICTIMS' FAMILIES, AND
38:03ALL WHO WERE TRIGGERED BY SUCH
38:05AN EVENT.
38:06I HAVE A COUPLE OF MEMBERS WHO
38:08WERE IN NEW YORK ON 9/11, AND
38:11SO, I KNEW THAT THERE WOULD BE
38:14COMPARISONS TO 9/11, AND THE
38:18HORRORS AND THE EVIL THAT
38:20OCCURRED ON THAT DAY.
38:22OF COURSE, THAT LANGUAGE HAS
38:23BEEN USED SUBSEQUENT TO OCTOBER
38:277th, AND SO, I FELT IT NECESSARY
38:30TO PROVIDE THAT KIND OF
38:33CONSOLATION.
38:34AT THE SAME TIME, I FOUND IT
38:35NECESSARY TO MAKE SURE THAT WE
38:38NOT MAKE THE MISTAKES THAT WERE
38:41MADE IN RESPONSE TO 9/11 IN
38:43RESPONSE TO OCTOBER 7th.
38:46AND BY THAT, I MEAN, I THINK
38:49HISTORY HAS RECORDED THAT IN THE
38:52AFTERMATH OF 9/11, THERE WAS
38:53SUCH A DETERMINATION TO EXACT
38:59REVENGE THAT THE RESPONSE WAS
39:05DISPROPASSIONATE, AND TOO MANY
39:08INNOCENT LIVES WERE LOST IN
39:08RESPONSE TO 9/11.
39:119/11 WAS HORRIFIC.
39:13THERE IS NOTHING THAT WILL EVER
39:19ASSUAGE WHAT HAPPENED ON THAT
39:20DAY.
39:20SO, MY PRAYER WAS, MY SERMON
39:22WAS, ON THE ONE HAND, LET'S
39:24OFFER COMFORT.
39:25AT THE SAME TIME, LET'S LEARN
39:28THE LESSONS OF HISTORY, BECAUSE
39:31IT'S WELL-KNOWN, IF YOU DO NOT
39:33LEARN FROM THE PAST, YOU END UP
39:36REPEATING IT, AND IN MANY
39:39INSTANCES, YOU MAGNIFY THE
39:41MISTAKES THAT WERE MADE IN THE
39:41PAST.
39:42>> AND I TAKE IT THE FEARS THAT
39:45YOU EXPRESSED IN THAT SERMON
39:47HAVE, IN FACT, COME TO PASS,
39:49WOULD THAT BE FAIR TO SAY, FROM
39:51YOUR PERPERSPECTIVE?
39:54>> UNFORTUNATELY, YES.
39:55IT'S BEEN HORRIFYING TO WATCH
39:57THE RESPONSE, AGAIN, DISPRO
40:00PASSIONATE, AND NOT DOWNPLAYING
40:02IN ANY WAY WHAT HAPPENED ON
40:03OCTOBER 7th.
40:03AND I HOPE THAT WE CAN ERASE THE
40:05NARRATIVE THAT YOU -- JUST
40:10BECAUSE YOU FEEL THE RESPONSE
40:12HAS BEEN DISPROPORTIONATE, DOES
40:17NOT MEAN YOU ARE ERASING THE
40:18MEMORY OF THE HORRORS OF WHAT
40:19HAPPENED ON OCTOBER 7th, BUT
40:20AGAIN, TO SEE HOSPITALS, PLACES
40:24OF REFUGE, BEING BLOWN UP, SO,
40:27YES, MY WORST FEARS HAVE BEEN
40:29REALIZED, AND MY WORST FEARS ARE
40:30A LIVING NIGHTMARE FOR THOSE WHO
40:32ARE LIVING IN GAZA.
40:34>> YOU ARE ONE OF MORE THAN
40:371,000 BLACK PASTOS IN THE U.S.
40:39WHO ARE CALLING ON THE BIDEN
40:41ADMINISTRATION TO SUPPORT A
40:43CEASE-FIRE IN THE -- IN
40:45ISRAEL'S, YOU KNOW, WAR ON
40:46HAMAS.
40:46HOW DID THIS KIND OF
40:50ORGANIZATION, THIS DECISION TO
40:51SORT OF MAKE A STATEMENT AS A
40:53GROUP, COME TO PASS?
40:54HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?
40:55>> WELL, MANY OF US, OF COURSE,
40:57ARE A PART OF GROUP TEXT, AND WE
41:03BEGAN TO EXPRESS IN OUR
41:08COMMUNICATION OUR DISGUST WITH
41:13WHAT WAS GOING ON.
41:14AND AS THE NOTIFICATIONS
41:16INCREASED, AS THE NEWS
41:19BROADCASTS CONTINUED TO SHOW THE
41:19NIGHTMARE UNFOLDING, IN WHAT SO
41:24MANY OF US HAVE LABELED THE HOLY
41:28LAND, WE BECAME INCREASINGLY
41:31IMPATIENT WITH THE RESPONSE OF
41:31THIS ADMINISTRATION.
41:36AND SO, WHAT BEGAN AN INFORMAL
41:40TEXT MESSAGES CONVERSATIONS
41:41GOING BACK AND FORTH, SOME OF MY
41:43BELOVED COLLEAGUES SAID, YOU
41:44KNOW, THERE'S NO WAY THAT WE CAN
41:48JUST LIMIT THIS CONVERSATION TO
41:50OUR GROUP TEXT.
41:52WE HAVE TO STAND.
41:52WE HAVE TO SAY SOMETHING.
41:53WE HAVE -- WE HAVE TOO MANY
41:54PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN US FOR US
41:59TO BE POOR STEWARDS OF OUR
42:00LEADERSHIP RESPONSIBILITY.
42:01AND THEN ON TOP OF THAT MANY OF
42:04US HAVE IN-ROADS IN THE
42:08ADMINISTRATION, AND SO, WE ASKED
42:10FOR A MEETING WITH THE
42:12ADMINISTRATION, SO THAT WE COULD
42:16EXPRESS OUR CONCERNS IN A WAY
42:18THAT WAS RESPECTFUL, BUT AT THE
42:20SAME TIME, REFLECTING A SENSE OF
42:23URGENCY OVER WHAT WE CONSIDERED
42:24TO BE A STATE OF EMERGENCY.
42:26>> YOU MENTIONED THAT A NUMBER
42:29OF PASTORS HAVE MET WITH THE
42:30ADMINISTRATION, WHO DID THEY
42:32MEET WITH?
42:33>> RIGHT, REPRESENTATIVES FROM
42:35THE MIN STATION.
42:35IT WAS NOT THE PRESIDENT
42:37HIMSELF, BUT REPRESENTATIVES,
42:37THOSE WHO I WOULD SAY ARE --
42:42THEY HAVE -- THEY HAVE
42:44AUTHORITY, BUT OF COURSE, THEY
42:46ARE REPRESENTATIVES.
42:50WE FELT WE WERE HEARD, BUT AT
42:51THE SAME TIME, WE FELT THAT IN
42:53THE AFTERMATH OF THE MEETING,
42:55BUSINESS AS USUAL CONTINUED, AND
42:59SO GIVEN THAT, WE FELT THAT THE
43:02ONLY THING WE HAD TO DO NOW WAS
43:04TO LOOK FOR WAYS TO EXERT AS
43:05MUCH PRESSURE AS WE COULD FROM A
43:10MORAL PERSPECTIVE, BECAUSE THAT
43:14BASICALLY IS WHAT WE ARE DOING.
43:16YOU MENTIONED THE 1,000 PASS
43:21PASTORS WHOSE NAMES WERE IN "THE
43:23NEW YORK TIMES."
43:24SINCE THAT PARTICULAR PIECE
43:25OCCURRED, I CANNOT TELL YOU HOW
43:27MANY OTHER PASTORS SAID, I WISH
43:29YOU WOULD HAVE INCLUDED ME, I
43:30WISH YOU WOULD HAVE REACHED OUT
43:31TO ME.
43:32SO, THE NUMBERS ARE MUCH MORE.
43:35>> REVEREND HAYES, WHAT DO YOU
43:36THINK JUSTICE FOR PALESTINE
43:40MEANS IN THIS MOMENT?
43:40YOU KNOW, AFTER EVERYTHING THAT
43:43HAS ALREADY TRANSPIRED, WHAT IS
43:46TRANSPIRING NOW, WHAT DO YOU
43:48THINK THAT MEANS?
43:49AND THE SECOND QUESTION TO THAT
43:50WOULD BE, DO YOU THINK JUSTICE
43:53FOR PALESTINE CAN COEXIST WITH
43:54SECURITY FOR ISRAEL?
43:56>> WITHOUT QUESTION.
43:58MY PREDECESSOR AT RAINBOW PUSH,
44:00THE ICON REVEREND JESSE JACKSON,
44:03COINED THE PHRASE SECURITY FOR
44:07ISRAEL, JUSTICE FOR PALESTINE.
44:09OF COURSE, IT'S REMIXED DURING
44:12PROTESTS IN THE STREETS, WHERE
44:13WE SAY NO JUSTICE, NO PEACE.
44:16BECAUSE THERE IS A RELATIONSHIP
44:19BETWEEN JUSTICE AND PEACE.
44:20THERE IS A RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN
44:22JUSTICE AND SECURITY.
44:24AND SO, I THINK WHEN REVEREND
44:26JACKSON SAYS SECURITY FOR
44:28ISRAEL, JUSTICE FOR PALESTINE,
44:29OF COURSE JUSTICE HAS A
44:33RESTORATIVE COMPONENT TO IT.
44:34JUSTICE HAS A COMPONENT TO IT
44:37THAT SAYS, WE HAVE TO REBUILD.
44:41WE HAVE TO RESTORE WHAT HAS BEEN
44:43BROKEN.
44:43AND SO, RIGHT NOW, JUSTICE FOR
44:47PALESTINE NOT ONLY INCLUDES A
44:50CEASE-FIRE, AND THE SAFE PASSAGE
44:51OF HUMANITARIAN AID, BUT ALSO
44:54REBUILDING ON THE TERMS OF THE
45:00INDIGENOUS PEOPLE, THE LAND THAT
45:01HAS BEEN DESTROYED.
45:04RESTORING IT TO THEM, ENSURING
45:05THAT THEY HAVE THEIR LAND ON
45:08THEIR TERMS.
45:11IF THEY HAVE THEIR LAND ON THEIR
45:13TERMS, THAT HAS BEEN REBUILT,
45:15THE HOSPITALS, THE HOMES, THE
45:18SCHOOLS, ALL OF THEM HAVE TO
45:20REBUILD.
45:20>> SO, WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU WANT
45:22PRESIDENT BIDEN TO DO?
45:24BECAUSE, IN FACT, LOOK, HE HAS,
45:26YOU KNOW, HE FAMOUSLY WENT TO
45:28ISRAEL, THE FIRST SITTING
45:29PRESIDENT TO VISIT ISRAEL, YOU
45:31KNOW, AT WARTIME, HE HUGGED THE
45:33PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU, BUT HE
45:35ALSO, AND OTHER MEMBERS OF THE
45:37ADMINISTRATION HAVE SAID WHAT
45:38YOU SAID, LEARN THE LESSONS OF
45:419/11, BE PROPORTIONATE IN YOUR
45:49RESPONSE.
45:50>> YOU CAN SAY THAT, BUT YOU
45:51CONTINUE TO FUND THE CARNAGE.
45:52WE ALL KNOW THAT THIS COUNTRY
45:55GIVES A HUGE AMOUNT OF RESOURCES
45:57TO ISRAEL THAT HAS GONE TO --
45:59THAT HAS GONE TO FUND A LOT OF
46:03WHAT IS TAKING PLACE RIGHT NOW,
46:03AND SO, WE HAVE THE MORAL
46:07AUTHORITY, BUT ALSO, THE FISCAL
46:08RESPONSIBILITY.
46:12IF WE WED THOSE TWO AND SAY, MR.
46:15NETANYAHU, WE WILL NO LONGER
46:17GIVE YOU FINANCIAL RESOURCES, WE
46:19WILL NO LONGER GIVE YOU MILITARY
46:20RESOURCES AND STAND BY, WATCHING
46:25THE CARNAGE UNFOLD, THAT IS A
46:26PROFOUND STATEMENT.
46:29IT'S ONE THING TO TALK IT, IT'S
46:30ANOTHER THING TO WALK IT.
46:32AND EXERT IT.
46:33>> IS THERE ANY PART OF YOU THAT
46:36WORRIES THAT THE CRITERIA
46:37SIMILAR OF PRESIDENT BIDEN MAKES
46:39IT EASIER FOR FORMER PRESIDENT
46:40TRUMP TO GET BACK INTO OFFICE?
46:42>> OF COURSE.
46:44AND I'M ASKING MR. BIDEN TO
46:47LEARN THE LESSONS OF HISTORY.
46:511968, LYNDON JOHNSON HAD DONE
46:52SOME AMAZING THINGS
46:56DOMESTICALLY.
46:56WE HAVE, BECAUSE OF LYNDON
46:58JOHNSON, THE '64 CIVIL RIGHTS
47:00BILL, THE '65 VOTING RIGHTS
47:02BILL.
47:03SOME WONDERFUL THINGS TOOK
47:04PLACE, BUT HIS FOREIGN POLICY
47:06DISRUPTED THE COUNTRY IN SUCH A
47:07WAY THAT IT SET THE STAGE FOR
47:10ANOTHER ADMINISTRATION TO COME
47:11IN AND THEY CAME IN, IRONICALLY,
47:16ON A SOUTHERN STRATEGY THAT WAS
47:18RACE-BASED.
47:19A SOUTHERN STRATEGY THAT WAS
47:23WHITE SUPREMACY-FUELED.
47:24AND I'M SIMPLY ASKING MR. BIDEN,
47:27AS YOU PROUDLY CALL YOURSELF A
47:29ZIONIST, AS YOU PROUDLY SAY YOU
47:31STAND BY ISRAEL ALMOST BY ANY
47:34MEANS NECESSARY, THAT IS
47:37OFFENSIVE TO TOO MANY, FIRST OF
47:39ALL, FROM A HUMANITARIAN
47:41PERSPECTIVE, BUT THEN YOU HAVE
47:43PALESTINIANS LIVING RIGHT HERE
47:44IN THIS COUNTRY WHO ARE OFFENDED
47:48BY WHAT -- BY THE STANCE OF MR.
47:49BIDEN, AND SO, YES, MR. BIDEN
47:54HAS DONE SOME GOOD THINGS, THAT
47:56CANNOT BE DENIED.
47:56IN THIS INSTANCE, I'M CONCERNED
47:59THAT HE'S GETTING IN HIS OWN WAY
48:02AND WHEN HE GETS IN HIS WAY, HE
48:04MAY WELL BE GETTING IN THE WAY
48:04OF THE FUTURE OF DEMOCRACY, OR
48:09THE LACK THERE OF IN THIS
48:11COUNTRY.
48:11>> SOME PEOPLE LOOK AT THE SAME
48:12HISTORY YOU JUST CITED AND DRAW
48:14THE OPPOSITE CONCLUSION.
48:16THE PROGRESSIVE LEFT ABANDONED
48:19LBJ IS WHAT PAVED THE WAY FOR
48:22A -- A RICHARD NIXON, WHO HAD
48:24ZERO SYMPATHY FOR AND INTEREST
48:27IN THEIR GOALS, BUT THERE ARE
48:29THOSE THAT WOULD SAY, THAT'S
48:30EXACTLY WHY YOU NEED TO PUT
48:31ASIDE THOSE FEELINGS AND SUPPORT
48:32THIS PRESIDENT, BECAUSE --
48:35BECAUSE HIS -- THE ALTERNATIVE
48:37IS WORSE.
48:38WHO HAS ZERO SYMPATHY FOR THE
48:42PALESTINIAN CAUSE, AND MOST
48:44OTHER THINGS THAT PROGRESSIVES
48:45CARE ABOUT.
48:46AND WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT?
48:48>> YEAH, I SAY THAT EXACTLY.
48:50THE OTHER SIDE WOULD BE
48:52DISASTROUS.
48:53AS A MATTER OF FACT, IT WOULD BE
48:58MULTIPLIED, WHAT IS GOING ON
48:59RIGHT NOW.
48:59THAT CANNOT BE DENIED.
49:02I ALSO WILL CLAP BACK AND SAY,
49:03IT'S NOT THAT THE CENTER-LEFT
49:06ABANDONED LBJ, LBJ ABANDONED THE
49:13PRINCIPLES AND VALUES OF THE
49:17CENTRAL LEFT.
49:18AND WE'RE SAYING RIGHT NOW, MR.
49:20BIDEN HAS ABANDONED THE
49:22PRINCIPLES OF REDEEMING THE SOUL
49:23OF AMERICA, HE'S ABANDONED THE
49:27CENTER LEFT.
49:27AND SO, WE'RE CALLING HIM BACK.
49:30LEARN THE LESSONS OF HISTORY,
49:32MR. PRESIDENT.
49:33>> ARE YOUR CONGREGATES TALKING
49:35ABOUT THE ELECTION YEAR?
49:36AND, YOU KNOW, THE FACT THAT IT
49:37IS AN ELECTION YEAR, DOES THAT
49:39COME UP IN YOUR CONVERSATIONS?
49:40AND ARE THEY -- ARE THEY TALKING
49:43TO YOU ABOUT TRUMP AND BIDEN,
49:46AND IF SO, WHAT DO THEY SAY?
49:48>> OH, WITHOUT QUESTION.
49:48AND THIS IS THE EARLIEST.
49:52I'VE BEEN PASTORING 40 YEARS,
49:54SO, I'VE SEEN A NUMBER OF
49:56PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION YEARS.
49:57THIS IS THE EARLIEST THAT I HAVE
50:02EXPERIENCED AN ENERGIZED
50:02CONVERSATION ABOUT THE ELECTION
50:05I'VE EVER EXPERIENCED.
50:07AND I HAVE TO BE HONEST, IT'S --
50:12IT'S -- I WON'T SAY IT'S
50:13FRIGHTENING, BUT IT'S
50:14CONCERNING.
50:15IN LIGHT OF THE STUBBORNNESS
50:19THAT IS PERCEIVED AS IT RELATES
50:21TO THE ADMINISTRATION AND THEIR
50:22POSTURE IN THE MIDDLE EAST.
50:24AND SO, I'M HEARING
50:26CONVERSATIONS AND THERE ARE
50:29THOSE WHO ARE SAYING, OH, I'M
50:30GOING TO VOTE, AND I'M NOT CRAZY
50:33ENOUGH TO VOTE THE OTHER SIDE,
50:35I'M NOT GOING TO VOTE FOR MR.
50:38BIDEN, I'LL GO THIRD PARTY.
50:40WELL, MY CLAPBACK IS, WELL, THEY
50:41DON'T HAVE ENOUGH MONEY TO MOUNT
50:43A SERIOUS THREAT, AND SO, A VOTE
50:45FOR A THIRD PARTY IS A VOTE FOR
50:49WHO YOU REALLY, REALLY DON'T
50:51WANT, AND SO, THAT ESCALATES THE
50:55CONVERSATION, BUT I'M STILL NOT
50:56GOING TO VOTE FOR MR. BIDEN,
50:57AND, YOU KNOW, SO -- IT'S -- I
51:01MEAN, THE CONVERSATIONS ARE, HOW
51:03SHOULD I PUT IT -- THE
51:04TEMPERATURE IS A LOT HIGHER THAN
51:07IT NORMALLY IS, BECAUSE THERE
51:09ARE THOSE WHO ARE REALLY, REALLY
51:11CONCERNED.
51:11I ALSO HAVE MEMBERS WHO WILL
51:14SAY, WELL, IT'S BACK TO VOTING
51:17FOR THE LESSER OF TWO EVILS.
51:19I HOPE MR. BIDEN DOES NOT WANT
51:21TO BE CONSIDERED THE LESSER OF
51:23TWO EVILS, BUT THAT'S WHAT MANY
51:24ARE SAYING.
51:26>> YOU KNOW, AT THE START OF THE
51:28WAR, THERE WAS THIS POLL TAKEN
51:29BY THE CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT FOR
51:32INTERNATIONAL PEACE, IT FOUND
51:33THAT 48% OF BLACK RESPONDENTS
51:35SAID AT THAT TIME THAT THEY
51:36DIDN'T FEEL CONNECTED TO EITHER
51:38THE ISRAELI OR PALESTINIAN SIDE,
51:42OR PLIGHT, I GUESS I WOULD SAY.
51:44>> YEAH.
51:44>> DO YOU THINK THAT THAT'S
51:45CHANGED?
51:46>> OH, WITHOUT QUESTION.
51:48THAT HAS CHANGED.
51:49ESPECIALLY -- I WOULD WONDER IF
51:51THAT POLL INVOLVED OR ENGAGED
51:53YOUNG PEOPLE.
51:54BECAUSE WHEN I LOOBLG AT THE
51:58YOUNG PEOPLE IN MY CONGREGATION
52:01AND IN THE COMMUNITY, THE YOUNG
52:01PEOPLE ARE ON FIRE, BECAUSE,
52:06AGAIN, THIS IS A GENERATION
52:07THAT, ON THEIR CELL PHONES, THEY
52:10HAVE NOTIFICATIONS COMING AT
52:12THEM ALL OF THE TIME, AND THOSE
52:13NOTIFICATIONS, I PROMISE YOU,
52:17CONTINUE TO ENRAGE WHAT THEY SEE
52:20AS THIS COUNTRY BEING COMPLICIT
52:23IN WHAT IS GOING ON, BECAUSE
52:24THEY FEEL A CONNECTION WITH WHAT
52:26IS HAPPENING TO THE
52:30PALESTINIANS.
52:30>> AND WHY IS THAT?
52:30WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?
52:32>> THEY CAN ALSO RELATE TO,
52:34BECAUSE WE ARE ONLY 3 1/2 YEARS
52:38REMOVED FROM THE SUMMER OF
52:38GEORGE FLOYD.
52:39WE ARE ONLY 3 1/2 YEARS REMOVED
52:43FROM BREONNA TAYLOR AND WHAT
52:48HAPPENED TO SO MANY DURING THAT
52:49SUMMER WHEN WE SAW IN REAL TIME
52:51SUCH HORRORS, AND SO, YOU'RE
52:51TALKING ABOUT A -- A RESPONSE
52:55FROM THE WORLD COMMUNITY,
52:59ESPECIALLY YOUNG PEOPLE IN THE
53:01WORLD COMMUNITY, TO THE HORRORS
53:02THEY SAW IN THE UNITED STATES
53:06THAT WAS TAKING PLACE.
53:08AND I PROMISE YOU, THAT SAME --
53:10THAT SAME DEMOGRAPHIC --
53:12>> YEAH.
53:12>> THEY HAVE A MORAL COMPASS, A
53:17MORAL CONSCIOUSNESS, THAT SAYS,
53:19WITH MARTIN KING JR., JUSTICE
53:22ANYWHERE IS A THREAT TO JUSTICE
53:23EVERYWHERE.
53:24IF YOU DON'T HAVE JUSTICE FOR
53:25ALL, THERE'S NOT JUSTICE AT ALL.
53:26>> AS WE ARE SITTING NOW, 30,000
53:29PEOPLE -- AT LEAST 30,000 PEOPLE
53:31HAVE ALREADY BEEN KILLED.
53:32>> YES.
53:33>> AND, YOU KNOW, HUGE SWATHS OF
53:36THE GAZA STRIP HAVE ALREADY BEEN
53:39DESTROYED.
53:39AND HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF
53:41PEOPLE HAVE ALREADY BEEN
53:42DISPLACED.
53:43AND I JUST WONDER IN SOME WAYS,
53:44IS IT ALMOST TOO LATE?
53:46>> WELL, I BELIEVE IT'S NOT TOO
53:46LATE.
53:49I THINK IT BECOMES TOO LATE IF
53:53THIS LINGELINGERS.
53:54IT BECOMES TOO LATE IF WE DO NOT
53:56IN A RESPONSIBLE WAY NEGOTIATE
53:58HEALING, A HEALING PROCESS, TO A
54:02STRIP THAT HAS BEEN DEVASTATE
54:05AND BROKEN.
54:09IT'S TIME FOR AMERICA TO STEP UP
54:10AND PROVIDE MORAL, CLEAR
54:14LEADERSHIP AND IF THAT TAKES
54:17PLACE, AND HEALING BEGINS, THEN
54:19THE GOOD NEWS IS, THINGS CAN
54:21TURN AROUND.
54:22BUT HEALING, AND I MUST SAY
54:24THIS, MUST BE ON THE TERMS OF
54:25THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN BROKEN.
54:27THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN HURT.
54:29AND NOT ON OUR TERMS, IMPUTING
54:34WHAT WE THINK HEALING IS, AS AN
54:38EMPIRE THAT PARTICIPATED IN
54:41THEREVEREND, THANK YOU SO MUCH
54:43FOR SPEAKING WITH US TODAY.
54:44>> THANK YOU.
54:47>>> AND FINALLY, WE END TONIGHT
54:48ON A DIFFERENT NOTE.
54:49REMEMBERING ONE OF BROADWAY'S
54:51BRIGHTEST LIGHTS.
54:53CHITA RIVERA, WHO DIED
54:55PEACEFULLY ON TUESDAY, SHE WAS
54:5891.
54:59ORIGINATING ROLES IN "CHICAGO"
55:00AND "WEST SIDE STORY."
55:02SHE WAS BELOVED BY THE NATION,
55:04RECEIVING THE SPECIAL TONY
55:05LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT AWARD, AND
55:06THE PRESIDENTIAL MEDAL OF
55:09FREEDOM.
55:09IN LIGHT OF HER PASSING,
55:10PRESIDENT BIDEN NAMED THIS
55:13TRIPLE THREAT SINGER, DANCER,
55:14ACTOR, QUOTE, AN ALL-TIME GREAT
55:17OF AMERICAN MUSICAL THEATER.
55:21WHILE RITA MORENO CALLED RIVERA
55:24THE ESSENCE OF BROADWAY.
55:25THAT IS IT FOR NOW, AND WE WANT
55:27TO LEAVE YOU WITH THIS CLIP OF
55:29RIVERA IN THE 1960s, DOING WHAT
55:31SHE ALWAYS DID BEST.
55:32PERFORMING A COVER OF A 1935
55:35FOLK SONG, "I GOT PLENTY OF
55:37NOTHING."
55:37THANKS FOR WATCHING.
55:40GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.
55:41♪ I GOT NO CAR ♪
55:44♪ GOT NO MISERY ♪
55:47♪ GOT A LOCK ON THE DOOR ♪
55:50♪ AFRAID SOMEBODY'S GONNA ROB ♪