00:00 So, Poland's Foreign Minister, Radek Sikorski is with me here.
00:09 Minister, this Munich Security Conference where we're standing right now began under
00:13 the impression of news coming in of the death of Alexei Navalny.
00:20 What does this change politically and what's your reaction to that?
00:25 I'm not sure it changes anything politically apart from perhaps confirming that Russia
00:32 is ruled by a bloody autocrat who has killed his political opponents before, including
00:39 in Germany.
00:42 One heart just goes out to the family of Alexei Navalny and to all those brave men and women
00:50 in Russia who are in prison for political reasons.
00:55 Navalny would have made a great leader of Russia, but now he will be an icon of Russian
01:01 Democrats.
01:02 Minister Sikorski, this Munich Security Conference also began with the US Vice President Kamala
01:10 Harris just saying something which usually only every new president has to say, which
01:14 is reaffirming that the United States stands ironclad with its allies, particularly its
01:20 NATO allies.
01:22 There is an element of insecurity after Donald Trump, of course, came out and said he would
01:27 only help allies if he were to be re-elected as president if they pay up.
01:33 Was this necessary today or what's your reaction to it?
01:36 I think it was useful.
01:37 As you say, it's just a reconfirmation of obvious truths that we've heard here in Munich
01:44 at the conference before.
01:47 But as we know, America has a lively internal debate and it's good to hear from the current
01:54 vice president that America's commitment to NATO continues to be solid.
02:02 Kamala Harris also cited an internal American debate, that there is the Biden administration
02:09 which says it's in America's interest to take on global leadership in the future, but that
02:14 there's also a counter debate which is more in favor of basically cutting the United States
02:21 off from the world and particularly its responsibilities towards its allies.
02:26 How concerned are you as a European country directly close to Russia about this internal
02:35 American debate and how that affects Europe's security?
02:38 Well, it's true that America has an option because it has Canada, Mexico and two oceans
02:45 as neighbors and we live in a less stable neighborhood.
02:50 And I agree with Kamala Harris that it would be detrimental to U.S. interests to shed what's
02:58 been built over decades, namely alliances.
03:02 Article 5 of the Washington Treaty has only been activated once on behalf of the United
03:10 States when Al-Qaeda attacked on 9/11 and we rallied round, Poland sent a brigade to
03:20 Ghazni, Germany sent troops to Mazar-i-Sharif and we didn't do bean counting, we just sent
03:27 the troops and we didn't send the bill either.
03:32 So I think it's important to remember that NATO is not a security company, but an alliance
03:38 of democracies, which I think benefits the United States because it protects the security
03:47 of trade routes and promotes American business abroad.
03:53 You've only recently come into government again, foreign minister now and there's also
04:00 a famous quote from you about being concerned about too little German leadership.
04:03 What kind of leadership is needed at the moment in Europe?
04:08 Well, at the height of the euro crisis, yes, I said that I fear German power less than
04:13 I fear German inactivity.
04:16 We need even more German activity on behalf of Ukraine and joint German-Polish activity
04:26 and leadership on European defense.
04:30 Now your government is also very ambitious.
04:33 You want to expand your army to actually be a real force in Europe.
04:39 Do you feel that European nations are on the same page, not just when it comes to support
04:45 for Ukraine, but also in what it takes right now?
04:48 And Krzysztof Hojsk, the chairman of the Munich Security Conference, spoke of a European arm
04:55 of NATO that also could have a stronger element.
04:59 Poland has been spending 2% of our GDP.
05:02 Our growing GDP on defense for 15 years.
05:06 We've now gone over 3%.
05:09 And if need be, we'll go higher because when Putin threatens us, we trust him.
05:17 And we need to do more as Europe to defend ourselves because irrespective of who is in
05:22 charge in Washington, there may be emergencies in which the United States is engaged that
05:32 will force Europe to take care of its own security.
05:36 So I've been advocating a European rapid reaction force and a European defense budget and a
05:42 European integrated command and an EU defense commissioner along with the European People's
05:53 Party proposals.
05:56 And I think it's an idea whose time has come.
05:59 Well, Donald Tusk, your prime minister, was in Berlin recently and he once again picked
06:04 up the offer, as it was perceived, of the French president Emmanuel Macron to have a
06:10 European defense under the nuclear umbrella of France.
06:14 Now Germany has been very low key on giving any response to that.
06:18 German Chancellor Schultz didn't really say anything on that.
06:21 But how is a Polish policy shaping up there?
06:25 What will you be pushing?
06:26 Well, these are creative ideas.
06:31 We need to tool up and gear up on conventional forces first.
06:40 Before we get to the nuclear issue, let's make enough 155 millimeter shells.
06:46 For Ukraine and also for Europe?
06:48 For ourselves.
06:49 We, Western Europe, disarmed and de-industrialized in the defense field far too much in the last
06:57 30 years.
06:58 What will be your target there that you're working towards?
07:02 We should replenish the funds in the European peace facility, which is our European defense
07:08 budget.
07:09 It's from those funds that we're helping Ukraine militarily.
07:14 And we need to put our defense industries on a crisis footing.
07:21 Now speaking to analysts here at the Munich Security Conference, some are actually saying
07:25 they believe that Russia has plans to attack potentially even NATO countries, the Baltics,
07:32 and that, of course, Moldova would be expected to be first.
07:37 How imminent do you feel the threat from Russia?
07:41 And what is your prediction for the next three, five years?
07:44 Well, if we allow Putin to conquer Ukraine, then, of course, he would be in a better position
07:50 to attack others.
07:52 He can't actually attack Moldova before he conquers Ukraine, for obvious geographical
07:57 reasons.
07:59 And if he conquers Ukraine, the price of deterring him will go up, which is the best argument
08:04 for helping Ukraine now.
08:09 When he says he's not thinking of attacking Latvia or Poland, let's just remember that
08:15 he denied that his troops took Crimea and that he solemnly denied that he had any intentions
08:23 of attacking Ukraine.
08:26 When he says he is not intending to do it, it means he's thinking about it.
08:32 How scared do you think your European partners are of actually preparing a public or talking
08:39 to a public about the investment it will potentially take to deter Russia?
08:46 Because that would mean a major shift in many societies here in Europe.
08:51 Well, the public is demanding by a majority of 80 percent, last time I looked, a European
08:59 defense worthy of the name.
09:01 It's us politicians that now have to deliver it.
09:04 Just finally, what's your biggest hope and your biggest fear for European security?
09:09 Well, the most urgent thing is for the United States to pass the Ukraine assistance bill.
09:15 And we have American congressmen here, American politicians, and this is what we need to communicate
09:21 to them.
09:22 And what's your worst case fear?
09:25 We'll do our utmost to prevent those.
09:27 Radek Sikorski, thank you very much for speaking to DW.
09:30 Thank you.
09:31 [BLANK_AUDIO]
Comments