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PM Express (21-11-23) || Ghana's Anti Gay Bill: The US warning of economic pain
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TVTranscript
00:00 (upbeat music)
00:02 - And thanks once again for joining us here on PMX Spread.
00:11 There is a conversation brewing in parliament,
00:14 but in diplomatic circles,
00:15 sparked by the US ambassador to Ghana.
00:19 And it's about Ghana's anti-gay bill.
00:23 Her comments has attracted sharp criticism
00:26 from some members of parliament.
00:27 In fact, in one case, one MP asked the US ambassador
00:32 to go to hell.
00:34 That's how bad it is.
00:36 But what did she actually say?
00:38 Listen.
00:39 - Ghana's parliament is considering a bill
00:42 that would curtail the human rights of the LGBT community,
00:45 their families, allies, and quite frankly, all Ghanaians.
00:49 Everybody has opinions about the issue,
00:51 and I respect those opinions very much,
00:54 even if I disagree with them.
00:56 But very few people have read the bill.
00:58 I think very few people understand that the reality is
01:02 that the bill undermines the basic free speech rights
01:05 that Ghanaians otherwise enjoy.
01:07 The goal of the bill,
01:09 the crafters are not shy about advertising,
01:12 is to make Ghana hostile, not only to LGBT people,
01:15 but to anyone who even sympathizes with them.
01:18 It seeks to make illegal all discussion and all media
01:21 that even mentions LGBT issues.
01:23 So journalists would be arrested,
01:25 landlords would be arrested,
01:26 mothers and fathers could be arrested.
01:29 If passed, the bill will make it harder for you
01:31 not only to recruit and hire the best people from overseas,
01:34 but it will marginalize educated and hardworking Ghanaians
01:38 by making it clear that they are unwelcome.
01:40 I have no doubt that such legislation
01:43 would have a chilling effect on Ghana
01:45 as an investment destination.
01:46 Companies have already talked to me
01:48 about American consumers being unwilling to buy things
01:53 that are made in a country
01:54 with such repressive legislation.
01:55 It'll make it harder for me to sell Ghana
01:59 as an investment and trade destination.
02:01 But the legislation,
02:03 in addition to undermining public health and public order,
02:07 would reduce Forex inflows, cut into your bottom line,
02:11 and reduce your workforce options,
02:13 not something Ghana's suffering business environment
02:15 needs now.
02:16 - In other words, if this is passed by parliament,
02:19 it's gonna have a devastating economic impact
02:22 on an already suffering economy.
02:24 And she used those words, suffering, right?
02:26 Let me pull up for you what you just heard there.
02:28 One, legislation will reduce Forex inflows,
02:31 reduce the workforce options.
02:33 It'll make Ghana hostile, not only to the LGBTQ people,
02:37 but to anyone sympathizing with them.
02:40 And she says the bill will also make discussions
02:42 relating to it illegal, undermine free speech,
02:46 but it is the economic implications
02:48 that we are paying attention to that she highlights.
02:51 It will affect, it says,
02:53 Ghana as an investment destination.
02:55 And then she warns that American consumers have told her
02:58 that they will not be buying goods from companies
03:02 that do business in countries
03:04 that have such repressive legislation.
03:06 And so for her, this bill, if it's passed,
03:08 is gonna be repressive,
03:09 and then American consumers will reject goods
03:12 coming from Ghana.
03:14 She also says it will make it harder
03:15 for you to recruit and hire,
03:17 because of course, if you want the best,
03:20 you possibly wanna go to the US and bring them in.
03:23 She says that is gonna be difficult
03:26 for Ghana businesses to do best people from overseas.
03:30 They won't come, because again,
03:31 she believes we have a repressive legislation
03:34 that criminalizes LGBTQ.
03:37 And then she also talks about it to make it harder.
03:39 Now she's talking about herself.
03:41 She's already laying the foundations,
03:43 warning us what will happen,
03:44 that the US will no longer sell Ghana,
03:46 or will make it more difficult for Ghana,
03:48 or the US to sell Ghana
03:50 as an investment and trade destination.
03:52 Those are pretty serious points that she lays out for us.
03:57 And for the very first time in a long time,
03:59 she lays out the consequences in black and white.
04:02 Okay, let's look at what the facts tell us.
04:05 How much will we lose if anything she says here
04:08 should materialize?
04:10 We started tracking our trade relationship with the US,
04:14 and this is according to the United States Census Bureau,
04:18 the OEC, but also the United States Trade Representative,
04:22 and they pulled together the data, right?
04:24 And if you look at the data,
04:26 we are exporting quite a bit to the United States.
04:30 In fact, 2022, the last time data is available,
04:34 $2.8 billion worth of goods
04:36 we exported to the United States.
04:38 So that's good money coming in.
04:40 We need that forex for our economy.
04:43 2021, 1.7 billion.
04:45 If you come to 2020, and this is the COVID years,
04:48 $716 million worth of goods that we exported.
04:52 Now, how does this compare to what we import from the US?
04:56 And if you look at that, again, from the same sources,
04:59 we wanted to check all of them to make sure
05:01 that we have the accurate picture.
05:03 You begin to see, again, go back to 2022,
05:07 we are importing from the US
05:10 an estimated $975 million worth of goods
05:15 in terms of goods and services coming in from the US.
05:19 And if you go to 2021, again, 957.
05:22 Now, that tells you a story, right?
05:24 That tells you a story that I wanna show you here,
05:27 because you begin to see
05:28 that we actually have a trade surplus
05:30 with the United States.
05:32 In other words, as you've seen already,
05:34 we are exporting more to the US than we are importing.
05:39 So as she says that, if what she says actually materializes,
05:43 she's warning us that American consumers
05:47 will be rejecting what we're exporting to them.
05:49 This $2.76 billion worth of goods
05:52 that we are exporting to them,
05:53 she says American consumers will be rejecting.
05:56 Keeping them honest, we'll come to that pretty shortly.
05:58 Is that really the case for other countries
06:00 that US trades with that have far more draconian legislation
06:04 against LGBTQ?
06:05 We'll see, so that we can put it in proper context.
06:08 But that's the warning from her.
06:09 If you look at what the stats tell us
06:11 and what the numbers are telling us
06:13 in terms of our trade relationship.
06:15 Now, if again, look at a country like Uganda,
06:18 we would try to also bring in
06:20 what other African countries have done
06:21 and what the consequences were for them.
06:23 Uganda, tracking what it did
06:25 when it comes to anti-LGBTQ laws.
06:28 In February, 2014, they activated this particular bill.
06:33 In June, 2014, US then imposes the sanctions on them
06:37 right after they did so.
06:38 And then in March, 2023,
06:40 the new bill on the LGBTQ becomes law, right?
06:43 Now, that was important.
06:45 They didn't back off,
06:47 although for a period that became an issue for them.
06:50 And the consequences were very clear.
06:53 The US then funds for the programs were withdrawn.
06:58 They had the military sponsorship packages
06:59 that again were canceled.
07:01 And as we know, they were then forced to
07:04 annul the anti-homosexual acts at some point,
07:07 but they came back very strongly
07:09 because they did believe that that's what they had to do.
07:11 It represents their values as a country.
07:14 And so they stuck to it.
07:15 And then if you begin to then expand on the impact,
07:19 for example, on the trade relationship
07:21 between Uganda and the United States,
07:23 this is the picture that emerges.
07:25 You begin to see how in 2014,
07:27 when the law was first enacted,
07:31 you look at the blue line here talking about the imports,
07:34 and then you look at the red line talking about the exports.
07:38 You will see that in that case, it's a bit different, right?
07:40 They were obviously importing far more
07:43 than they were exporting.
07:43 So they have a trade deficit with the United States there,
07:47 but then everything else began to go down
07:50 and began to climb back again.
07:52 But by the time that it comes to 2022,
07:54 as you can see, it's neck and neck there about,
07:57 but did it have an impact there?
07:59 You may say then, of course,
08:00 because if you look at the year before 2013,
08:03 they were still importing quite significant amount
08:07 of goods and services from the US.
08:08 So in that case, you see that they will say,
08:11 well, look, in effect, you're benefiting off us.
08:15 We're buying a lot from you.
08:16 So we really don't need you in this particular circumstance.
08:19 And as it plays out later in the year,
08:22 later down the line in 2022, you see the picture there.
08:24 And I want to do the comparison for you
08:26 as you see here in terms of how it pans out
08:28 in the trade relationship there.
08:30 Let's just pay attention to, see the drop.
08:34 As of the time in March,
08:36 and this is just the year of 2023,
08:38 when they reactivated it.
08:40 This was big international news.
08:42 And this is the 2023 as they activated this.
08:44 Over the time when they activated this,
08:46 the trade relationship there,
08:48 look at the imports was at 16.2 million.
08:52 In comparison to us, it was pretty tiny,
08:54 a drop in the ocean.
08:55 And they come to 13.6 million
08:57 when it comes to the amount of goods
08:59 that they were exporting to the US.
09:01 So that relationship there was a deficit situation.
09:06 But if you travel down the months,
09:07 you see it drops all the way from 16 to 4.8 million
09:12 in terms of the imports.
09:16 And then for the exports is 7.5 million.
09:18 But this is the interesting part.
09:19 In September, when the last date is available,
09:23 you actually begin to see that
09:24 they've switched to a trade surplus,
09:26 although the total value has dropped.
09:29 That is also interesting.
09:30 Because they begin now to export more
09:32 than they are importing from the US.
09:34 And so if the US consumers, of course, are interested,
09:38 why, for example, do we have,
09:40 yes, quantum is so small,
09:41 but you have a surplus there for them
09:43 when they have mostly been in a deficit situation.
09:46 Again, that's an interesting point to note
09:48 as we examine the warnings that we've seen over the period.
09:52 And then we go to a country like Saudi Arabia,
09:54 a country the US does business with very aggressively,
09:58 but they have a far more draconian regime
10:01 than we could ever imagine.
10:03 Because if you see what they have there,
10:05 it's a de facto situation.
10:07 You don't have a particular explicit law,
10:10 but you know you just don't do it.
10:12 If a married man engaged in a sodomy,
10:15 you know the consequence.
10:16 You'll be stoned to death.
10:18 You will be stoned to death.
10:19 Non-Muslims engaged in sodomy,
10:21 again, you're facing stoning.
10:23 And so for them in their case,
10:24 it is almost a death sentence there.
10:26 Also, Saudi Arabia is also illegal.
10:27 This is a country with draconian legislation on this matter.
10:31 But what is the situation with the US?
10:34 And this is something to keep them honest.
10:36 On the screen here,
10:38 I really wish you could see this part of the screen
10:40 because it's important,
10:41 because it shows you the story of what is happening there.
10:45 Because look, the United States is actually
10:48 importing far more from Saudi Arabia
10:54 than Saudi Arabia is importing from them.
10:56 And that is a very interesting point indeed.
10:58 Just look at that here,
10:59 23.3 billion in terms of US imports from Saudi Arabia
11:04 compared to 11.4 billion in terms of the US export
11:10 to Saudi Arabia.
11:11 That tells you a story, right?
11:13 So if you take the Virginia Palmer's point,
11:17 we're kind of far more draconian legislation.
11:20 Why is it that the US is importing 23.3 billion
11:26 in fact, the US is in a deficit situation?
11:30 In other words, it contradicts Virginia Palmer's point.
11:33 But the US consumers like Saudi Arabian goods and services.
11:37 They are, as you see,
11:39 importing far more from Saudi Arabia
11:42 than Saudi Arabia is actually taking from them.
11:44 So what's the situation here?
11:46 And that's the story about keeping them honest.
11:47 Is this hypocrisy on the part of the US,
11:51 as some have suggested?
11:52 Or is just something else at play here
11:55 that we need to unpack?
11:56 And my guests will join us for a conversation
11:58 pretty shortly on this.
11:59 Because, or is it because this is an African country
12:03 as one of the MPs have suggested yesterday
12:08 that because it's Africa, they are poor,
12:10 she can throw the threats around?
12:12 But some facts are facts, right?
12:14 And that says what it is
12:16 because you really wanna ask yourself the question.
12:18 So these US consumers,
12:20 they don't know the draconian legislations in the US.
12:24 And this data is according to the US's own
12:27 United States Census Bureau,
12:28 telling us a story of what is happening
12:30 in terms of the trade relations here
12:32 with the US importing from Saudi Arabia 23.3 billion
12:36 as a gains.
12:37 Well, Saudi Arabia itself,
12:38 the US is exporting to Saudi Arabia.
12:40 Now that's a very interesting scenario to look at.
12:43 And then you look at the situation with Ghana
12:45 when it comes to foreign direct investment.
12:49 On a case in point that could be threatened, right?
12:52 It's a case there of 2022 of 1.3 billion.
12:57 This is something we desperately need.
12:59 Will this be affected also?
13:00 These are the facts.
13:01 Let's bring in my guest after this short break
13:03 for a really honest conversation.
13:05 Now that we know what will happen to us
13:07 according to the US,
13:09 is the cost too high?
13:12 Is the price too high for us to pay?
13:15 Should we soldier on to the passage
13:17 of this particular bill?
13:18 Or considering our current dire economic circumstance,
13:21 should we pause for thought?
13:24 My guest after this.
13:25 (upbeat music)
13:27 Thanks for staying with us here on PM Express.
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14:15 My guest joining me tonight,
14:16 Sam George is the MP for Ningo Prampam.
14:19 He was recently at the United Nations
14:21 talking exactly about this.
14:23 He is one of the proponents of this particular bill
14:26 in Parliament.
14:27 Michael Augustus Agabo is a senior programs officer
14:32 at the Human Rights and Social Inclusion, CDD,
14:35 Ghana.
14:36 Joins me in the studio,
14:37 Rabbi Odamian Sa is head servant,
14:40 Grace House Chapel International
14:42 and CEO of Marriage Clinic
14:44 and also joins us via Zoom tonight.
14:47 Thank you gentlemen for your time.
14:48 I'm PM.
14:49 Sam, let me start with you.
14:51 Having listened now,
14:52 it's been a few days since Virginia Palmer spoke.
14:55 Considering the economic consequences she lays out for us,
14:58 should we pause for thought?
14:59 - Into your listeners or viewers
15:05 and then the rest of the panelists.
15:07 I believe that the facts and statistics that you shared
15:11 at the beginning of the program,
15:13 tell half of the story.
15:16 You need to look at the portfolio of Ghana's exports
15:21 to the United States.
15:24 What makes up that $1.7, $1.8 billion
15:28 and find out who is that benefiting.
15:31 Before you put,
15:33 and that helps you put into context
15:35 what Virginia Palmer is saying
15:36 and the track she's offering,
15:37 whether we will place any value on that track or not.
15:40 Now I'm looking at the US Department of Commerce website.
15:45 The International Trade Administration's own report
15:49 on Ghana US trade.
15:51 And it says that the major trade items
15:55 between Ghana and the US was basically cocoa, crude.
16:00 And for me, if you look at those and gold,
16:07 cocoa, crude and gold,
16:08 those are the major exports from Ghana to the US.
16:11 Now, if you look at the companies in that space
16:14 that are exporting cocoa powder, cocoa paste,
16:18 or looking at exporting crude oil to the United States,
16:23 those are not Ghanaian companies,
16:24 those are American companies.
16:25 So yes, it is reflecting as Ghanaian trade to the US,
16:30 but it is not Ghanaian companies
16:32 and it's not Ghanaians who are making that,
16:34 who are earning that money.
16:36 It's American companies working in Ghana
16:40 and exporting Ghanaian products to America
16:43 that make up that chunk of trade.
16:45 So you see, it's important that we desegregate
16:50 the figures that are being churned out.
16:53 So yes, there appears to be a trade surplus,
16:56 but is that trade surplus to the benefit
16:58 of Ghanaian businesses and Ghanaian citizens?
17:01 No, it's American businesses trading in Ghana,
17:05 trading in gold, trading in crude and trading in cocoa.
17:09 But they are the ones-
17:10 - These businesses will pay taxes to us,
17:11 they will employ Ghanaians also, they are set up here.
17:15 Great benefits to the economy.
17:17 - And Evans, do you believe that
17:20 because Ghana is gonna pass a law
17:23 that majority of Ghanaians support an oil business,
17:28 for example, Cosmos, that we know has American part ownership
17:33 which is working in Ghana and exporting crude.
17:36 Cosmos will close up shop in Ghana and leave Ghana
17:40 when Cosmos is also operating in other Gulf countries
17:43 where they have even more draconian rules.
17:44 Do you think that because the American ambassador
17:46 has just said this,
17:47 Cosmos will close down their investment in Ghana and leave?
17:51 Do you think that gold buying companies,
17:53 cocoa buying companies, licensed buying companies
17:56 will close up shop and leave?
17:58 They won't.
17:59 In the figures you yourself showed from Uganda,
18:01 Uganda is a much smaller economy.
18:04 And I'd have loved for you to look at the figures
18:06 from Nigeria.
18:07 What people fail to realize is that Nigeria in 2015
18:11 passed an anti-same sex marriage bill,
18:14 similar to what Ghana is passing.
18:15 Nigeria has had that.
18:17 The Nigerian government took a stand
18:19 where they told the American government
18:21 that they would retaliate for any action
18:23 taking against the Nigerian state.
18:26 Because of the posture of the Nigerian government,
18:28 the American government was careful with sanctions
18:32 of any such or any kind on the Nigerian government.
18:35 So it comes back to the posture of the country.
18:38 It comes back to the stature of the country.
18:40 Ghana is not Uganda.
18:42 With the greatest of respects to Uganda,
18:44 Ghana is the third largest trading partner
18:49 of the United States in Sub-Saharan Africa,
18:52 behind South Africa and Nigeria.
18:55 But the US is our fourth trading partner.
18:58 So Ghana holds a very unique position on the continent
19:01 and Ghana cannot be treated like Uganda.
19:03 It comes back to how we position ourselves.
19:05 But the point I wanna make here is this.
19:07 Ghana's major exports from the US are what?
19:10 Cars, poultry, cars and poultry products.
19:14 That's what we really import from the US
19:18 per the US government's own statistics.
19:21 So that's what I'm saying to you that, look,
19:22 Virginia Palmer is within her rights
19:25 to make the comments she's made.
19:27 But first and foremost, I must state that
19:29 the things she said about the bill are factually incorrect.
19:32 They are not true.
19:34 There's a difference between reading the bill
19:36 and understanding the bill.
19:37 She clearly has no understanding of the bill.
19:39 - And I'll come to the substance of the bill
19:41 as she commented on.
19:41 I wanna stay quickly with on economic issues
19:43 that he touched on.
19:44 - On the economic pain, listen, take it from me.
19:48 The US is within its rights to flex its muscle.
19:51 But Ghana is a sovereign state.
19:53 And if you look at the total amount of aid,
19:55 the total amount of aid that Ghana received
19:58 in 2022 from the US, it was $150 million.
20:03 What percentage of our GDP is that again?
20:05 Listen, if you put together a few corrupt
20:09 Ghanian politicians, they have combined
20:12 more than $150 million to their name.
20:16 That's the total amount of aid.
20:19 So when there's threat of aid, aid, aid being cut,
20:23 listen, last year we're talking just $150 million US.
20:27 That's all.
20:27 So are we gonna sell our national identity
20:30 and sovereignty as a state
20:32 because of $150 million for an economy
20:34 whose GDP is nearing 100 billion?
20:38 That's less than 1% of your GDP.
20:41 - Well, stay with me, Sam.
20:43 Let me bring in Michael.
20:44 Michael, he has a point, as you know,
20:47 that he makes the point that we can weather the storm
20:51 if indeed what Virginie Mapalma warns ever materializes.
20:55 You side with that point?
20:58 - Well, I don't agree with Sam George on that.
21:00 - Why don't you?
21:01 - I don't because, look,
21:03 look at economic situation right now.
21:06 I mean, this country is broke.
21:08 I mean, it's broke, broke.
21:09 It's not like, it's funny.
21:11 We all know the state of, the dire state
21:12 in which our financial situation is in right now.
21:15 And if you're looking at what we tend to lose
21:19 in terms of our international trade with other entities,
21:24 not just the United States, because we are kind of,
21:27 I think we're just kind of talking of this
21:29 just in the context that is the United States alone.
21:32 Virginie Mapalma is talking about,
21:34 what she's saying is reflecting the sentiment
21:36 of other international donors.
21:39 And they're all saying the same thing.
21:41 So we need to be very careful.
21:42 Look, last year, we got $800 million from Agora.
21:47 From Agora last year.
21:50 We're starting to have another projected 800 million
21:52 this year, next year, and also for 2025.
21:57 So we tend to lose, if you look at the Ugandan case,
21:59 we tend to lose $1.6 billion from the Agora transaction.
22:04 That is a huge chunk of money that we tend to lose,
22:08 especially taking into consideration--
22:09 - How are we gonna lose this money?
22:11 Because we passed an anti-LGBTQ law?
22:14 - But that is what happened in Uganda.
22:16 The United States on October 30th
22:18 decided to take Uganda out of the Agora agreements.
22:21 So Uganda is no longer part of Agora as we speak.
22:24 So that is a substantial loss of income,
22:26 of revenue to the Ugandan government.
22:28 And they are feeling the pinch in Uganda.
22:31 So to say that we're gonna weather the storm,
22:34 because Costbus, for instance,
22:35 might decide to still pursue to do business in Ghana,
22:39 you are just kind of limiting the argument,
22:40 just a small segment of what kind of trade
22:42 we're engaging with the United States.
22:45 We have to move beyond, we have to even look at
22:48 what our tourism industry is gonna suffer from this.
22:51 - How would that affect your tourism industry?
22:53 - Well, just think about it.
22:55 Part of one of the things in the clause,
22:59 is the cross-dressing clause,
23:03 which basically says that by some weird way of definition
23:07 that men cannot dress like women,
23:10 women cannot dress like men.
23:12 It's in the clause, right?
23:14 So by definition, should I decide to even pierce my ear,
23:19 or should a woman decide to wear pants,
23:21 that's considered to be cross-dressing.
23:23 - I mean, but that appears to me
23:25 like a misreading of the act itself,
23:27 because if you pierce your ear,
23:28 I mean, why would that be interpreted as being homosexual?
23:32 - Well, it's not homosexual, we're not talking homosexual,
23:35 we're talking cross-dressing.
23:37 We gotta make the distinction.
23:39 And the fundamental, I mean,
23:42 foundation on which this bill itself has been laid,
23:45 I feel has been very misleading, or has been confusing,
23:49 because we seem to substitute rights for homosexuality.
23:54 There are two different things.
23:56 The homoerotic act of two men engaging in sex
23:59 has nothing to do with rights.
24:01 Rights are the bedrock of our democracy.
24:05 - And we'll come to those substantive issues in the act,
24:08 which some Georgia touched on.
24:11 But your point is that we cannot afford the economic pain
24:15 that this will bring, as Virginia Palmer had brought on.
24:18 - Oh, we can't.
24:18 But I need to put to you,
24:20 I mean, I tell enough of my presentation at the beginning.
24:23 The US ambassador says, well, the consumers,
24:26 I can no longer vouch for you in the US,
24:29 I cannot sell Ghana anymore.
24:31 US consumers will not buy Ghanaian goods.
24:34 And considering that we're exporting more to the US
24:36 than we're importing, that could be dangerous, right?
24:38 But then you go to Saudi Arabia,
24:40 with far more draconian, anti-gay, not even laws,
24:43 it's just the society's against it,
24:44 and they'll stone you to death.
24:47 US is buying and importing from Saudi Arabia
24:50 of far more, $23 billion worth more goods
24:55 than they actually export into Saudi Arabia.
24:59 That's the, there's some hypocrisy there, is there not?
25:02 That these same US consumers who will not buy our goods
25:05 because we've passed an anti-gay law,
25:08 cannot get enough of Saudi Arabia goods and services.
25:13 - Well, I think to--
25:14 - Shouldn't we then take this with a pinch of salt,
25:16 these threats to us?
25:19 - Well, you should look at your position and power
25:22 in any negotiation.
25:24 What kind of power do you hold in the negotiation?
25:27 We always have to come back to that.
25:28 Yes, Ghana is a sovereign state,
25:30 but in the state,
25:32 in the space of international negotiations,
25:34 do we hold the clout?
25:36 That's how Saudi Arabia has.
25:38 Saudi Arabia could decide today to say,
25:42 okay, we are going to cut back
25:43 on how much oil we are producing, okay?
25:46 And the whole world will feel the pinch of it.
25:49 Can we do the same in Ghana?
25:51 Do we have that clout that Saudi Arabia has?
25:54 I mean, and to get into the point,
25:56 I feel like sometimes the comparison
25:58 can be very misleading too.
26:00 We're talking about a full-fledged democratic society,
26:04 comparing itself to a theocratic society,
26:07 in terms of how it manages itself.
26:12 So we need to be looking at,
26:14 we need to be looking at the reality of the fact,
26:17 what is the bargaining power in the international space
26:20 when it comes to Ghana and the United States?
26:22 - Let me bring in Rabbi Odomiansa.
26:25 Mr. Odomiansa, now if you listen to Michael,
26:28 Michael is clear that, yeah, we're looking at the US now
26:31 because the US ambassador has spoken.
26:33 But the impact he talks about goes beyond the US.
26:36 It goes to the European countries themselves, right?
26:39 You talk about France, UK,
26:40 all of them will have similar reactions to us.
26:44 And where we are currently, the economic consequences,
26:47 he talks about Agua, if you put that number down
26:49 and you begin to imagine that for a country
26:51 like ours bleeding on a daily basis,
26:55 this clearly, it's something that we must reconsider.
26:59 - Thank you very much and good evening to your viewers.
27:07 I agree with some George
27:08 and I think that we must be radical about this.
27:14 Through all these aids, these loans
27:17 and whatever name they may call them,
27:20 what have they done to Ghana
27:22 that we are still interested in taking aids
27:27 and trading with these people?
27:30 What have they done to us?
27:32 - Well, it brings us jobs,
27:33 it brings us money to fund our budget.
27:35 It's what we actually live on.
27:38 - Okay, so then what has become of it?
27:42 - So it tells us that that is not really what we need.
27:46 We need something more than what we are going in for.
27:51 If things can go wrong, things can also go right.
27:54 Mr. Mensah, things can go right.
27:56 Let's look at what is making things go wrong
28:01 after all these aids and all these loans
28:05 and all those things that we are looking at
28:10 so that we are becoming afraid to pass this bill.
28:15 You understand?
28:16 Let's look at it critically.
28:18 It does not help us and it will never help us.
28:23 You see, we are too loyal to dysfunction.
28:25 That thing is not functioning, that thing is not working
28:28 and we are loyal and dedicated to them.
28:32 You don't know what is wrong with a black man.
28:36 I totally disagree with--
28:39 - Michael?
28:41 Michael?
28:43 - No, the gentleman at the studio.
28:44 - Michael, yeah.
28:45 - Yes, I totally disagree with him.
28:48 I totally disagree with him.
28:49 - What exactly?
28:51 Do you disagree that $800 million from AGOA,
28:56 if we lose it, will actually, that's what he says,
29:00 will actually cost this economy greatly
29:04 in jobs, in income, in forex?
29:07 - Well, yes, it will cost us,
29:14 but let's look at cost for what?
29:16 It will cost us, but our dignity
29:19 and our human dignity will be preserved.
29:25 We can be treated and live our lives like,
29:28 forgive me, listeners and viewers, like animals.
29:34 I mean, lizards don't live that way.
29:37 Dogs don't live that way.
29:38 No animal lives that way.
29:41 So because of what we eat and what we drink,
29:44 what we wear and those things,
29:48 we have to sell our birthright
29:51 and something that is foreign to us, we accept them.
29:55 Why?
29:56 I don't understand this.
29:58 For once, let's be radical.
30:01 Let's go the Nigerian way.
30:03 Let's warn these people as they are warning us.
30:06 - But we don't have the same economic might
30:10 as Nigeria has some way.
30:12 So that a comparison, it's not the same thing.
30:17 - Yes, we may not have it, but you know what?
30:23 It starts from somewhere.
30:25 The question is, all these things,
30:30 we may not have the same economic might
30:32 and all that Nigeria has, we don't have.
30:35 All that we are getting from the US and from these people,
30:39 what have they done to Ghana?
30:41 That is my question.
30:43 If they have done something good to Ghana, fine.
30:46 After all these things, look at where our economy is.
30:51 Nothing is for free.
30:52 These people, they give you something,
30:55 they take big things out.
30:57 So it will not help us.
30:59 When you find yourself in a pit,
31:02 you don't dig pits to cover the pits.
31:05 You sacrifice to get yourself out of the pits.
31:10 And it's like, we want to dig more pits to cover the pits.
31:16 What kind of wisdom is this?
31:19 What manner of wisdom is this?
31:21 - Mr. Damiansa, stay with me.
31:22 Sam George, you have a real practical problem on your hands.
31:25 If Virginia Palmer can say what she said there
31:29 last two days publicly,
31:32 imagine what she's telling our representatives,
31:35 the finance minister, the government representatives,
31:37 who of course in diplomatic circles,
31:38 they talk quite frequently.
31:41 For a government that is supervising an economy
31:43 that is facing the worst economic crisis in a generation,
31:47 soundbites like what we've had there will mean a lot.
31:52 Which can translate to members in the House,
31:54 who you need to get that bill passed.
31:57 That is a real challenge that you face now,
32:01 considering where the economy is.
32:03 - Well, Evans, let me state emphatically
32:06 that be it the president, the vice president,
32:09 or the finance minister, or whoever in government,
32:11 Virginia Palmer is speaking to in private,
32:13 must know that they owe fidelity to the Ghanaian people,
32:16 not the US ambassador.
32:17 That's the first point we need to make.
32:20 Now, secondly, just before I go into the details
32:22 of what that portends for parliament,
32:24 let me state that respectfully,
32:26 I disagree with Michael and the figures he's put out.
32:29 It's disingenuous to put out headline figures
32:33 and say that Ghana loses 800 million US dollars from Agua.
32:38 That's not correct.
32:40 Last year, we did not get 800 million.
32:42 Evans, you know what $800 million
32:44 will do for Ghana's agriculture?
32:46 Which part of Ghana's agriculture
32:47 did we get $800 million?
32:49 The reality of the fact is that the US government
32:52 gave Ghana $32 million, $32 million in agricultural aid
32:57 in 2022, not 800 million.
33:01 I challenge Michael Odami to show you
33:03 which inflows of 800 million he's talking about.
33:06 If they tell you Agua has a potential of 800 million,
33:10 does it mean that Ghana has used 800 million?
33:13 And in fact, if you say Agua alone
33:16 was 800 million in our Greek sector,
33:18 the figures you put out as Ghana's exports,
33:21 what portion of that is?
33:24 That's not 800 million filling.
33:25 Secondly, respectfully, my brother Michael
33:29 shows you the point I made that persons against this bill,
33:34 including the US ambassador, are reading,
33:37 but there's a difference between reading and understanding.
33:40 And I know Michael is highly competent,
33:42 but I mean, for the purposes of whatever agenda
33:45 that they are pushing,
33:46 they will choose to read without understanding.
33:49 He makes reference to cross-dressing in the bill
33:52 and says that if he pierces his ear and wears an earring,
33:56 he can be arrested.
33:57 For someone as educated and highly competent as Michael is,
34:01 it's most unfortunate to do that.
34:03 And for the purposes of our viewers and our listeners,
34:06 let me run a quick crash course in the bill.
34:10 Section 10 or clause 10 of the bill
34:12 is titled Prohibition of Gross Indecency.
34:16 Now, 10-2 says, 10-2C, for purposes of this section,
34:21 grossly indecent act means intentional cross-dressing
34:26 to portray that the person is of a gender
34:29 different from the gender assigned at birth
34:33 with intents to engage in an act
34:38 prohibited under this act.
34:40 Now, for you to establish criminality in common law,
34:43 you must have the act and the intent,
34:47 actus rus and mens rea.
34:49 The actus rus here is the intentional cross-dressing.
34:52 Mens rea is the intent.
34:54 What is the intent behind the dressing?
34:56 So piercing your ear alone does not mean
34:59 that you're falling foul of this law,
35:01 but piercing your ear and dressing as a woman
35:04 with the intent to commit an act that is prohibited,
35:09 not just any act, but a specific act
35:12 prohibited under this law.
35:14 And what are the acts prohibited under this law?
35:17 They are found in section six.
35:19 This is an act of parliament, it's not a storybook.
35:23 It's an act of parliament.
35:24 Section six says, a person commits an offense
35:27 under this act if they hold out as a lesbian,
35:31 a gay, a transgender, a transsexual, a queer,
35:35 a pansexual, an ally, or a non-binary person.
35:38 So you can only be found guilty
35:42 by a competent court of jurisdiction
35:44 if you are prosecuted for intentional cross-dressing
35:47 to portray yourself as a person of a different gender.
35:51 If your intent was to portray yourself
35:53 as one of the seven or eight gender identities
35:58 that this law finds regressive.
36:00 But if you are a man, for example,
36:03 Evans, you are a man and you decide
36:05 that you want to take part in one of
36:07 George Biafid's stage play or Ankele Bo' White's stage play.
36:10 And as a man, you are acting as a woman.
36:13 Your intent is to entertain your guest.
36:16 Your intent is not to portray yourself as a transgender.
36:19 Your intent is to carry out
36:21 an educational and entertainment purpose.
36:24 This law does not hold you liable for anything.
36:27 This is the misrepresentation.
36:29 In fact, it is intentional disinformation and misinformation.
36:33 By persons who ought to know better,
36:35 the US ambassador is guilty of it.
36:37 Michael in your studio is guilty of it.
36:39 And several other persons who are pushing this law.
36:41 And Evans, I'll end on the question you asked.
36:44 Would this have any effect on members of parliament?
36:47 I have said this several times
36:48 and the Speaker of Parliament did the same
36:50 when we did the second reading of this bill.
36:52 There is no member of parliament
36:55 who can stand on the floor of the House of Parliament
36:59 and say that they will vote or fight against this bill.
37:05 - Yeah, but they will not say that publicly.
37:07 But if it comes out to a vote.
37:09 - I'm telling you this,
37:10 because the speaker did it when we did the second reading.
37:13 The speaker said, "Any member of parliament
37:15 who is opposed to the bill,"
37:17 at the second stage of reading,
37:19 he gave the floor that they should rise and speak.
37:21 Your cameras were there.
37:22 - Nobody did, yes.
37:23 Nobody did.
37:24 - Nobody did.
37:25 Because you cannot, because you see,
37:27 Evans, I don't sit in parliament
37:30 because I am Sam George and I am handsome.
37:32 No, I know I'm handsome, yes.
37:33 But it's not my fineness that took me to parliament.
37:36 It's that the people of Ningo Prampam voted for me.
37:39 And that's why before I brought this bill to parliament,
37:42 I met with my two traditional counsels
37:44 and held 18 town hall meetings in Ningo Prampam
37:48 to ensure that I had the support
37:49 of the people who voted for me
37:51 because I knew the weight of the bill I was going to push.
37:53 No member of parliament will come there.
37:55 If you come to parliament and come and speak your mind,
37:58 that is up to you.
37:59 But bear in mind that you sit in that chair in parliament
38:03 for a constituency that has chiefs, has pastors,
38:06 has imams, has traditional authority and religious people,
38:10 and even atheists.
38:12 And you will go back to them and answer to them.
38:14 And your voice on the floor must be representative
38:16 of the people who send you.
38:17 And I say to you on authority
38:19 that of all the 275 constituencies in Ghana,
38:23 the National House of Chiefs has representation
38:26 in every single constituency.
38:28 The first public symposium that this bill had in Kumasi
38:32 was sponsored by the National House of Chiefs,
38:34 where the president of the National House of Chiefs,
38:36 Oji Awowo Ejebi II, himself came to speak
38:41 and said that the National House of Chiefs
38:43 is fully behind this
38:44 because there is no traditional area in Ghana
38:46 that supports homosexuality.
38:48 So imams, I can say on authority
38:50 that no MP speaking the minds of his people
38:53 can come to parliament and say they are voting against this
38:56 because of visa or because of what some think tank
38:59 or what the ambassador is saying.
39:02 - Let me hear from Michael.
39:02 Michael on the point.
39:03 - You know, I hear all that some judges saying,
39:08 but what I think is happening,
39:11 which we sometimes we don't wanna say is that
39:13 parliament as we have it today,
39:16 when it comes to this issue
39:17 is beholden to the religious block.
39:21 It is the religious block that is driving this agenda.
39:25 And it's more so because if you look at the way
39:28 our country is today, our political elites,
39:31 have more so ceded much of their power
39:34 to be able to act instrumentally
39:38 in the way the constitution requires to make laws
39:41 and have ceded that space to the religious block.
39:44 So a lot of this talking points in this bill
39:46 that some judges talking about,
39:47 they are all just religious talking points.
39:49 - But you make religious talking point,
39:50 but the CDD's own research
39:52 show that the overwhelming majority of Ghanaians
39:54 favor some judges position.
39:56 Even if it's religious,
39:59 it's a representation of the majority view.
40:01 - I do not disagree with that.
40:05 But the point I'm trying to make is that
40:07 we need to make a clear distinction
40:09 between tinkering with rights
40:12 and also criminalizing an act.
40:16 There are two different things.
40:17 Homosexuality, which some judge wants to criminalize.
40:22 It's an act that goes against,
40:26 it's not, I mean, think about it.
40:28 The state does with crimes.
40:31 The church deals with sin.
40:33 But to carry the morality of the issue of sin
40:36 and to make it a crime,
40:38 I think it's problematic for democratic dispensation.
40:42 And we have to start making that distinction.
40:44 Then how do we criminalize an identity?
40:47 Who does that?
40:48 How do you in any sense criminalize an identity?
40:51 I mean, to say that, okay, a time will come.
40:54 - But the law we already have
40:56 criminalizes on natural kind of knowledge.
40:58 That's also sinful.
41:00 - The law does not confer rights.
41:03 The criminal code does not confer rights.
41:05 The constitution is the macro right document.
41:08 - Yeah, but the fundamental point you make
41:10 is that there's a sin and then there's a law.
41:13 And that you cannot take the sinful act,
41:16 which the church obviously should be condemning
41:18 and make it into a law.
41:21 But we already have that in our act.
41:23 That's why I'm just mentioning to you.
41:25 So that argument that of course--
41:27 - So that is what makes this whole bill problematic
41:30 for me personally, because if I'm thinking,
41:33 look, CDD position is not whether this is,
41:38 CDD is not out here advocating that men can go have sex.
41:41 That has nothing to do with the issue.
41:44 For us, it is a human rights issue.
41:47 It's the same way that should any minority
41:50 suffer such injustice from society,
41:53 we must go to bat for that same person.
41:56 It doesn't really matter.
41:57 It could be some judge himself tomorrow.
41:58 And I could go back for him if his rights are violated.
42:01 Or if in any way, society decides that
42:05 they want to regularize the states
42:07 in a way that they will punish him for being who he is.
42:09 - What about his Agua point?
42:11 That the 800 million doesn't represent the facts?
42:14 - Well, I mean, it could be that we are looking at data
42:17 from different places,
42:18 but this is coming from the Agua platform.
42:20 - And what does he say?
42:21 If you have the data, just go through that.
42:23 Because he says, obviously,
42:25 that 800 million cannot begin to represent
42:28 what the trade value is with that.
42:31 Okay, whilst we look for that,
42:34 I'm gonna take a quick break.
42:35 When I return, I'll hear from Rabbi O'Dami and Sa'ed,
42:38 and of course, Michael also,
42:39 as a wrap up on this important conversation.
42:42 As we've been hearing from the US ambassador to Ghana,
42:46 Virginia Palmer, laid out in very clear terms for us
42:50 what the economic cost will be to Ghana
42:52 if we dare go ahead and pass the anti-LGBTQ act.
42:57 Stay with me.
42:57 (dramatic music)
43:00 That's a live, you're on PM Express,
43:08 discussing what we heard from the US ambassador
43:11 going public with their own concerns,
43:13 saying she will struggle to defend Ghana,
43:17 to sell Ghana to the international community
43:19 and to US investors,
43:21 because we are pressing ahead
43:23 with the passing of the anti-LGBTQ bill.
43:25 And my guest in the studio is Michael,
43:27 of course, with the CDD.
43:28 We have Rabbi O'Dami and Sa'ed Servant,
43:30 Grace House Chapel International,
43:32 and we have Sam George also with us.
43:33 Let me go to Sam George very quickly,
43:35 because we just have a few minutes to wrap up.
43:36 Sam, so we've heard from the US ambassador.
43:39 We've talked about, you say you don't worry
43:42 that this will affect your situation in Parliament
43:45 as far as the bill is concerned.
43:46 But I'm very curious, as we speak tonight,
43:48 where are we with the bill?
43:51 - Well, the bill is just about to go through its amendments.
43:55 And because of the budget, those have been put on hold
43:58 once we're done with the budget.
43:59 So hopefully in the first meeting of next year,
44:01 we'll be able to do that.
44:03 But everyone, if I could just quickly on the legal issue,
44:05 because Michael makes that point again.
44:07 Michael, respectfully, no rights accrue in our constitution
44:11 to anybody on the basis of the agenda
44:13 or the agenda identity.
44:15 There is absolutely nowhere in the constitution of Ghana
44:19 and in any international statute,
44:20 anywhere in the world.
44:22 And I've done my homework on this.
44:23 I'm challenging anybody to show me
44:26 any international convenance,
44:28 any international convention or any international treaty
44:31 or the constitution of Ghana that imposes
44:35 or bestows a right on the basis of gender
44:38 or gender identity.
44:40 And I did that at the UN speech I gave.
44:42 All rights accrue to people on the basis of sex.
44:46 In fact, if you take the 1992 constitution,
44:48 article 39 of the constitution,
44:51 places a duty on the states to ensure that we integrate
44:55 the appropriate customary values.
44:57 Customary values are determined
44:59 by the national house of chiefs.
45:00 I've just told you what the national house of chiefs says.
45:02 And so it is incorrect for anybody to suggest
45:06 that there are rights being trampled.
45:08 Gender identities do not give you a right.
45:10 And Michael, you cannot have rights on the basis
45:13 of something that is not universally accepted.
45:15 That's why when you take the UN declaration on human rights,
45:18 the universal declaration on human rights,
45:20 they are bestowed because they are globally accepted.
45:23 First of all, they have 30 rights.
45:24 Those rights are accepted globally everywhere.
45:27 Gender identity is not one of them.
45:30 - Okay, Michael.
45:31 - I wanna respond to that.
45:32 So it tells me that Sam George obviously
45:34 does not understand the constitution.
45:37 The Ghana constitution specifically states
45:40 that we cannot discriminate against anybody
45:42 on certain categories, one of them being gender, right?
45:45 He said he's read the constitution.
45:47 So I'm probably thinking that he used the concept sex,
45:50 right?
45:51 You heard him say sex, right?
45:53 If you go back to 1969 constitution
45:55 and other provisions of rights,
45:57 sex was a category for protection.
46:00 1979 constitution, sex.
46:03 1992 constitution, gender.
46:07 That should tell you something.
46:09 And the constitution in this application
46:12 is a neutral document.
46:14 Probably Sam George doesn't know that.
46:16 That is why when the constitution say religion,
46:18 it doesn't say Christian or Muslim.
46:20 So when he says gender,
46:22 it is inclusive of identities of people
46:25 who might be different.
46:27 So his understanding of the constitution itself
46:29 is flawed in the first place.
46:31 And then let me also give him another,
46:34 briefly, another briefly.
46:36 So he keeps talking about natural rights.
46:38 So all that Sam George is talking about is natural rights.
46:41 And I feel like he still hasn't gotten the concept
46:44 of how rights emerge in a polity.
46:47 Look, there are four different ways
46:49 that we can talk about rights.
46:52 Four different ways.
46:53 And one of them being natural rights.
46:55 There's also deliberative rights.
46:57 Those come from deliberation.
46:59 If he has read John Hobbes, the Leviathan,
47:02 why we created a social contract
47:04 so men could give up certain rights
47:05 so that we could have a what?
47:06 A stable society through deliberation.
47:09 There's also protest rights.
47:11 These comes from rights from social injustices in society.
47:14 The civil rights movement, women rights,
47:18 these are protest rights.
47:19 And then we have discourse rights.
47:21 Discourse rights emerge from societies
47:23 where people who have power decide
47:26 that others shouldn't have rights.
47:27 And that is exactly where we are with this bill.
47:29 This is a discourse rights.
47:31 - Okay.
47:32 Listen, this is obviously a conversation that we'll read on.
47:35 And Rabbi Odami, please forgive me,
47:38 we just ran out of time on this.
47:39 This conversation we'll have to revisit.
47:40 Considering what the U.S. Ambassador had said already,
47:43 I know Sam Jojenko had said,
47:44 if she does not stop what she's doing,
47:47 there possibly will get protest against that.
47:49 As she says, the bill is in Parliament
47:51 and the debate will possibly happen pretty soon.
47:53 Enjoy the rest of your day.
47:55 (upbeat music)
47:59 (whooshing)
48:01 (upbeat music)
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