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00:00 Tunisian authorities have barred the entry of a European parliamentary delegation that
00:05 were meant to conduct a fact-finding mission in Tunisia.
00:08 A letter says the lawmakers would not be allowed in due to multiple reservations about the
00:12 visit.
00:13 The move from Tunis comes nearly two months after the EU inked a memorandum of understanding
00:18 with Tunisia to curb irregular migration.
00:22 We can now bring in Camille Lecauze, Associate Director at the Migration Policy Institute.
00:27 Thank you very much for joining us here on France 24.
00:31 Why are we seeing this uptick, this significant uptick in arrivals on Lampedusa?
00:37 In the past two days, we have some 7,000 people.
00:41 What explains this?
00:42 Yeah, I think your colleague explained.
00:44 It's a mix of, you know, the conditions on the ground that have, you know, built up this
00:48 series of boats to leave.
00:50 But then it's also people who are waiting to leave.
00:53 And here, this is related to the condition in Tunisia that are making it more difficult
00:58 for migrants, especially from sub-Saharan Africa, to stay, given the racist rhetoric
01:03 of the president over the past year, over the past months.
01:06 And then it's also, you know, many people at the moment are fleeing their country for
01:11 a variety of reasons associated with the social and economic condition, the war, civil, you
01:17 know, civil conflict, civil wars, as we're seeing in the case of Burkina Faso, because
01:21 that has been a main nationality arriving on the Italian island yesterday.
01:26 And then what we're seeing also is, you know, the effect of climate change having an impact
01:30 on people's livelihood and sometimes driving people to leave their home.
01:35 Yesterday in a speech, Ursula von der Leyen in her State of the European Union spoke about
01:41 these deals she has struck with countries like Tunisia to stem the flow of migrants
01:49 coming into Europe.
01:50 These deals are controversial, they cost the EU money.
01:53 Do they work?
01:55 I think they can work in the short term if your goal is to decrease arrival, although
01:59 what we're seeing exactly now is also the main limitation.
02:04 So indeed, in July, you know, the commission, but also the prime minister of Italy and the
02:09 Netherlands went to Tunisia, negotiated this agreement with the president of Tunisia that
02:14 they would support Tunisia, give money to Tunisia.
02:17 And in exchange, the Tunisian authorities would, you know, curb arrival, increase border
02:22 control, make sure that fewer people are able to leave Italian shores.
02:26 And so what we're seeing here in a way is this deal not being, you know, not being held
02:31 on the Tunisian part.
02:33 I think we need to see exactly what has happened, what is the status of the negotiation.
02:38 But I think what is more worrisome is the EU seeing as prioritizing, you know, goals
02:43 in relation to curbing arrival instead of promoting, you know, Tunisia as a stable democracy,
02:51 you know, over time.
02:53 And then also Tunisia being an open country, like supporting the rights of migrants in
02:58 Tunisia.
02:59 And the fact that these MEPs have been denied entrance to Tunisia is also testimony to the
03:06 fact that Tunisia does not want us, does not want Europeans to check on what's happening
03:11 in the country in this regard.
03:14 Let's talk about something else the EU Commission President Ursula von der Leyen said yesterday.
03:19 She said she wants to go after trafficking networks, clearly, again, to stop the problem
03:24 of illegal migration.
03:26 But what she didn't say is how to, she didn't talk about how to encourage legal migration.
03:32 Is that a problem?
03:33 Yeah, I think this is something we're seeing quite commonly in the EU now for a number
03:38 of years is because EU member states have been unable also to agree among themselves
03:44 on how we're going to reform a common European asylum system.
03:47 We've been looking for, you know, for a partner outside to help us curb arrival.
03:52 So it's been disagreement with Tunisia.
03:54 It's been this attempt to fight smuggling and trafficking.
03:58 But really, I think what we need to be focusing on is how do we better organize solidarity?
04:03 How do we organize among ourselves when we're seeing this arrival in Italy?
04:08 So that Italy doesn't feel like all the pressure is on, you know, this small island.
04:14 And I think here we're, we've seen some negotiations, some progress in the negotiation with this
04:19 new pact, this package of agreement of this legislative package that the EU has been put
04:25 forward, that the European Commission has put forward a few years ago.
04:30 The question is, is that going to be enough?
04:32 And I think there are a lot of questions as to even, you know, even if this legislative
04:37 package is negotiated, is achieved, what's going to happen?
04:42 And is that going to help changing the situation?
04:45 But we're not likely to see, you know, everyone singing from the same song sheet.
04:51 Already now we have the Germans who say that they will be sending migrants processed in
04:56 Italy back to Italy.
04:58 Getting all member states to agree on the same policy is like a pipe dream, isn't it?
05:03 This is incredibly difficult.
05:05 And this has been a main challenge since 2020.
05:08 We've seen a breakthrough in the negotiation in June.
05:11 I think now many, you know, a number of EU partners are hoping that by February they
05:17 will reach an agreement because for the EU, this is really like if they fail, if they
05:22 don't manage to reach an agreement on this, on this big pact, this will be a failure of
05:26 the EU.
05:27 And this also may put at risk a fundamental principle, which is a one of territorial
05:31 asylum, that people, when they get to Europe, they can claim for asylum.
05:36 And I think there is a concern that if negotiation, if countries don't find an agreement, this
05:42 will, you know, the situation will further deteriorate.
05:45 Camille, I just want to jump in there because we've had the Americans who've gone about
05:50 this slightly differently.
05:51 A couple of months or years ago, actually, we had the US Vice President Kamala Harris
05:56 who went to the points where migrants are coming from countries in Central America.
06:04 Clearly, there are certain pockets of the world where the migrants coming into Europe
06:09 come from.
06:10 Should EU officials try and go to countries of origin and try and see what the problem
06:16 is in those countries to, because nobody wants to realistically.
06:21 No, well, I would actually argue this has been done.
06:24 And I think the American strategy was actually very much inspired from something the European
06:28 have tried to do since 2015, which is to fund, you know, put development assistance in the
06:34 countries in the countries of origin.
06:36 So, you know, in different countries in Sub-Saharan Africa to achieve what they've called addressing
06:42 the root causes of migration, that is to create jobs, to create conditions for people not
06:47 to leave their home.
06:48 The problem is this takes a very long time.
06:51 And also, you know, the more you, you know, the more condition improve, the more people
06:56 may also aspire to something even better and may sometime, you know, decide that they're
07:00 going to move.
07:02 What we're seeing is, you know, it's a little bit of a conundrum in that on the EU side,
07:09 we need labor, you know, we need labor forces.
07:11 The pandemic has shown how much we need migrant workers.
07:15 And on the other hand, we have people who want to come to Europe to work.
07:18 And what we're failing to do is to organize, you know, legal pathways for these people
07:22 so that they can come regularly to Europe.
07:25 And I think that's something that in Europe is we just don't manage to have this conversation
07:30 because the issue of migration has become so politicized that it makes it really hard
07:35 to talk about to talk about the creation of.
07:37 But if European states need the migrant workers and clearly will benefit from migrant workers,
07:43 is there a failure at the top of the European level of how they sell it to their member
07:49 states?
07:50 I think it's a mix of reason, but indeed, I think you need to remember that this is
07:55 the prerogative of EU member states.
07:57 So in a way, the EU, what they can do, the European Commission, they can encourage member
08:01 states to create these pathways, but it needs to be done by member states.
08:06 So indeed, that's a failure that we're seeing.
08:09 And this has been, you know, a conversation for a very long time.
08:12 There were expectations that after the pandemic, we would move forward on this topic.
08:17 And yet we're seeing this is not happening once again.
08:20 Camille, of course, thank you very much for your analysis there.
08:24 Very interesting discussion indeed.