Full A9 Crisis Summit July 18 2023

Highland News & Media

Full recording of the Inverness Courier's A9 Crisis Summit on July 18, 2023.

Transcript

00:00:00 I'm a Highlander born and bred and unfortunately I know of people who have lost their lives

00:00:05 on the A9. More than a hundred people have died on the road since 2009 and some of their family

00:00:13 members and friends are with us today so thank you. I know this is a painful topic.

00:00:19 This map shows all the fatal accidents from the beginning of 2022 up until now. That's 15

00:00:27 accidents, 21 deaths. The majority of them died on single carriageway sections between Inverness

00:00:36 and Perth. As journalists reporting on these tragedies we know that there will be another

00:00:41 fatal accident soon but these people are not just statistics. They are grandparents, neighbours,

00:00:48 parents and children. Five months ago the Scottish Government declared that its promise to dual the

00:00:54 A9 from Inverness to Perth by 2025 was unachievable. Just two sections totalling 11 miles have been

00:01:02 dualled. No new plan has emerged and waiting until autumn for an update is not good enough.

00:01:08 Lives are at stake. Some may say we should be using alternative means of transport.

00:01:14 Anyone who lives here knows that isn't often convenient or possible. Both planes and trains

00:01:22 are regularly cancelled and ticket prices frequently make driving the only reasonable solution.

00:01:28 We launched our dual the A9 campaign with a viral front page which has now been viewed over a

00:01:34 million times and held up in Holyrood. Our goal was to gain the attention of those in power.

00:01:40 We later became the only regional media to hold a leadership debate where we put the broken A9

00:01:46 dualling promise front and centre. We told our readers this wasn't just noise and we meant it.

00:01:52 Our second viral A9 front page asking how many more people need to die

00:01:57 resonated with our readers and encouraged concerned members of the community to contact us.

00:02:03 We have been inundated with emails, phone calls and comments on this topic

00:02:09 and the overwhelming consensus is one of anger. This summit comes off the back of the ongoing

00:02:16 hard work from our dedicated team who won't stop until the A9 is dualled. Today is about bringing

00:02:22 together campaigners, politicians and business leaders to make our voices heard, stress the

00:02:27 importance of the A9 dualling promise to decision makers and discuss a way forward. We encourage you

00:02:34 to have your say. The hashtag for the event is #A9CrisisSummit and you can tag us on Twitter

00:02:41 @INBCourier. Please welcome your host, Nicky Marr.

00:02:50 Thank you very much Sarah and I'll add my own welcome to Sarah's. Promises were made over a decade ago to

00:02:57 dual the A9 between Inverness and Perth and it was confirmed in February that the original 2025

00:03:03 deadline wouldn't be met. Throughout there have been several names that have hit the headlines

00:03:08 with their demands for action. One of those is Fergus Ewing MSP and I'm delighted to say that he

00:03:15 will be joining our panel discussion shortly along with Mari McCallan, the Scottish Government

00:03:20 Cabinet Secretary for Transport, plus two representatives from Transport Scotland.

00:03:25 Another whose voice we have heard standing up for communities is Laura Hansler, A9 safety campaigner

00:03:34 who raised a citizen's petition to dual the A9 with the Scottish Parliament. Evidence was heard

00:03:40 on that petition last month. I'll be talking to Laura very soon and she'll be joining our panel

00:03:46 discussion as well along with Colin Marr, the Chief Executive of Inverness Chamber of Commerce.

00:03:51 He's representing the interests of Highland businesses here today. One person who has been

00:03:58 vocal in his condemnation of delays but who has also come forward with real solutions is Graham

00:04:04 Barn. He's the Chief Executive of SICA Scotland. SICA, the Civil Engineering Contractors Association,

00:04:12 represents companies who work day-to-day to deliver, to upgrade and maintain Scotland's

00:04:18 transport and utility networks. SICA has 100 members in Scotland. Between them they carry out

00:04:24 80% of all of our civil engineering activity, supporting 30,000 jobs. That is a big deal.

00:04:32 Graham works really closely with Transport Scotland. His members need the work and Transport

00:04:39 Scotland need SICA members to actually carry out the work so that it all gets done. But recently

00:04:44 Graham has spoken out against Transport Scotland because of the nature of their contracts,

00:04:49 particularly in relation to contractors bearing all of the risk. This was highlighted when only

00:04:55 one contractor was prepared to bid to duel the A9 section between Tamatin and Moy. And the contract

00:05:03 was therefore not granted. Graham Barn also gave evidence to last month's petitions committee.

00:05:09 He would have joined us today but he's on holiday. So I caught up with Graham last week and I started

00:05:15 by asking him about the economic, social and community benefits of dueling the A9 between

00:05:20 Perth and Inverness. It will extend beyond the point of the spine of Inverness to Perth.

00:05:30 And the reason for that, and that's the reason why they're doing it, is also to join up two of

00:05:35 Scotland's cities. But it's a major route, it's a major economic route. And if you think of all

00:05:42 the traffic in timber and the traffic in whisky up and down that road, as well as tourism, but also

00:05:52 much of what we do around renewables in the future is going to be based in the north of Scotland.

00:05:57 So you need to get the equipment up there to be able to create the turbines and the hydro schemes

00:06:06 that we're all going to be dependent upon in the future. So the A9 is absolutely critical to that.

00:06:11 So are you also aware and familiar of the promises made by the Scottish Government,

00:06:16 I think the first one was in 2007, it was repeated in 2009 and then again in 2011,

00:06:21 to duel the A9 between Perth and Inverness. That's something that's, you know, part of,

00:06:28 I don't know how long you've worked at SICA but it's something that's been part of the fabric

00:06:32 of Scotland's political discussion for a considerable period of time.

00:06:36 Yes, well, as civil engineering constructors we are acutely aware of the promises that were made

00:06:41 around that because that's work, that's work for the sector and we have always been looking forward

00:06:48 to that work coming out on a regular basis. So when the promise was made, it was achievable

00:06:56 at that time to be able to duel the A9 but in the timescale that they gave themselves.

00:07:04 But they needed to have a plan and they also needed to have the money there to be able to

00:07:09 have a rolling programme of bringing out sections of the A9 to be tended for and then built.

00:07:17 And that's the problem, is the promise was made and then not a lot of work was then done

00:07:23 behind that to deliver on it and it seems to have gotten further down in the list of priorities

00:07:32 of the government I would suggest. So what's fallen down then because obviously things have

00:07:36 gone horribly wrong with the A9 and you've been fairly critical of Transport Scotland's contracts.

00:07:42 Yes, I think there's two things going on here, there's two streams. There is the dueling of the

00:07:51 A9 which doesn't seem to be coming out and there is the all the other new road building that takes

00:07:59 place in Scotland that has similarly slowed down. The work that has gone on, there has been a

00:08:06 problem with contractors over the years, is that the terms and conditions given by Transport Scotland

00:08:14 to contractors are not attractive and in recent years contractors have found it very difficult

00:08:20 to make any money, if at all money. Civil engineering contractors work on margins of 2%,

00:08:27 that is the industry norm for civil engineering contractors. So as you can well imagine it

00:08:33 doesn't take much to go wrong on a project to be able to lose a lot of money and on big road

00:08:40 building projects where there's lots of money at stake you can lose a lot of money very quickly too.

00:08:46 And the main areas where the contractors have had issues with Transport Scotland

00:08:52 is on risk. Now that's a contractual term but in layman's terms it's around who's responsible for

00:09:02 some of the things that could go wrong on a job and some of the things we're talking about risk

00:09:07 are things like weather and so if you're trying to build roads in the middle of nowhere in the

00:09:12 north of Scotland then and during winter then weather becomes a bit of a risk so you can

00:09:19 actually have to stop work so who pays for all the plant equipment that's on hire. So under the

00:09:28 terms of the Transport Scotland contract that risk is all with the contractor. In most cases

00:09:34 with other clients and other significant infrastructure jobs risk is shared between

00:09:41 contractor and client. There's an understanding of there's just some things that you just don't know

00:09:47 so it's hard to price something that you don't know so the risk is shared but not in the case

00:09:54 of Transport Scotland contracts which makes them commercially unattractive to contractors.

00:10:01 So if they're commercially unattractive to contractors does that then perhaps give a little

00:10:08 bit of a background as to why because we have heard a lot about Tomas and Tomoy and but we

00:10:15 didn't get enough beds and therefore it wasn't going to be value for money for the Scottish

00:10:19 people and Scottish people are not going to be sort of held over a barrel by the civil engineering

00:10:25 industry. That's effectively the other side of that coin isn't it? Yes that's exactly where we are

00:10:33 is that in recent history going back to lots of jobs in Central Belt

00:10:43 going back to the M8 bundle that's happened, Queensferry crossing, Aberdeen Western peripheral,

00:10:51 Hordigan roundabout, the contractors there the significant major contractors there have all lost

00:10:58 money. How are they still in business? Well because luckily we've got other work that has managed to

00:11:04 do that but it caused significant strain and stress on some of these companies and they've

00:11:12 just said actually unless we have a fair chance of making a bit of money we're not looking to make a

00:11:17 lot of money at two percent margins but as long as we have a chance of making a bit of money

00:11:22 then until we've got that we are not bidding for transport Scotland work unless they change

00:11:29 the risk profile that they put out in their contract. How likely is that to happen? Well

00:11:38 given the fact that in the last two jobs they've only had one contractor on each job come forward

00:11:45 I would hope that common sense would say that they have to look at that and have a serious look at

00:11:52 changing the contracts they use and go to a more industry norm contract and that way they will then

00:12:00 get I believe more contractors coming back in and then you have a competitive situation where

00:12:08 Transport Scotland will then perhaps feel more confident that they they're getting value for the

00:12:14 taxpayer. Thank you for that. So back in 2011 whenever it was that the the dualling pledge

00:12:21 was made I think it was 2011 it was backed up with a three billion pound fund. Now I know that

00:12:29 construction inflation has been really high in recent years for very many many reasons.

00:12:35 Do you think that that would have been enough to get the job done? Had they had the plans and had

00:12:41 they had the political will to follow it through and they said they had the three billion pounds

00:12:46 could we have had the job done by 2025 if everyone had been pushing for it for that money? It's

00:12:53 difficult to say but much more of it would have been dualled than it currently is and much of it

00:13:02 would have been dualled at prices pre-covid time and pre-brexit time. So it's difficult to say as

00:13:10 to whether you know did that three billion pound ever exist and was it always going to rain fence

00:13:15 for the A9 and would it have completed it because there is one section that hasn't got a roach yet

00:13:22 so you don't actually know what that design might look like at this stage. But I think if there had

00:13:29 been a process and a plan and a real desire to to carry it through then you would have been

00:13:38 far nearer three billion than you are now if you're looking to dual the A9 now. It's going to

00:13:45 be a lot lot more than three billion that's for certain. So do you know then when it's going to

00:13:52 be put out to tender again? I mean this is the sort of thing we're waiting for an announcement

00:13:56 from Minister for in the autumn? Yes the timetable that we're working to is that there

00:14:04 a minister announced that there would be an award by the end of this year so they would

00:14:12 award the contract by the end of the year. Now Transport Scotland have been doing and we've been

00:14:18 involved with this, SICA's been involved with this, they have been going around trying to speak to

00:14:23 contractors, not trying to speak, they have been speaking with contractors to understand their

00:14:29 concerns around why they haven't bid in the past and what it would take for them to be interested

00:14:38 again in bidding for work. So that process is not long finished so I don't know what the outcome

00:14:46 of that deliberation has been yet but it's pretty challenging for them, here we are sitting in the

00:14:54 beginning of July, for them to go through a tender process, an award within five months

00:15:03 on a process that historically has taken them a year to do. So they think they can do the

00:15:10 the whole market engagement in 16 weeks, we'll see, but certainly they have put nothing out for

00:15:18 tender yet. To match it to my side then, it's chunked up into our remaining eight sections,

00:15:25 the rest of the single carriage weed B9 if I can put it that way, very clumsily, four sections have

00:15:35 made orders, does that mean that they're pretty well, we're to match it to my end and ready to

00:15:40 go out to tender? That's exactly the case, yes. But they haven't yet been put out? Yes. Three

00:15:47 sections I understand are waiting for ministerial approval, does that mean that if the minister

00:15:53 looks at it and says yes that's fine let's give it a thumbs up, those other three sections could

00:15:58 then go out to tender? There's a bit more involved with that but I would say they are 80% there,

00:16:05 in terms of you know a further 20% of things to do once the minister says yeah go ahead with that

00:16:11 and then it could come out to tender, yes. If you were in charge of it what would you do?

00:16:19 There is a spending issue with the Scottish Government and they have a very big project

00:16:24 that they have made a commitment to the electorate that they will be done

00:16:31 and they're behind the eight ball a bit on it so they are going to have to spend money

00:16:36 and it's how they choose to do it that's the thing. So the contracting industry is willing and able to

00:16:42 deliver it on whatever method they choose to fund it. I think it's probably better for the

00:16:51 Scottish economy if you have it in smaller chunks, either a framework or whatever, because

00:16:57 if it's a big PFI it won't be a Scottish company that does the PFI because there's nobody that big

00:17:03 enough to do it, probably nobody in the UK is big enough to do it so it's going to have to be

00:17:08 European or further afield that comes in for a PFI type job. So really for a Scottish economy

00:17:16 point of view then a framework approach or a pay as you have the money approach would be the way

00:17:24 to do it but if you're living on the A9 and you're looking to get up and down there the quickest way

00:17:30 to do it would be to spend a whole lot of money quickly on it. There is contractors, there are

00:17:37 contractors out there willing to do the work if the terms and conditions are fair and if there is

00:17:44 real political will and money to back it up to do that project. And that's a lovely way to end it.

00:17:52 Graeme Barne, Speaker of Scotland, thank you so so much. That was Graeme Barne there. Four takeaways

00:17:59 that I have from that are number one it was achievable to do the A9 by 2025 at the time the

00:18:07 promise was made but it needed a plan, it needed a budget and it needed political will to drive

00:18:13 that forward. The second thing I took from that Transport Scotland's terms and conditions are

00:18:17 commercially unattractive to contractors as they are found if they are forced to accept all of the

00:18:23 risk but the industry is willing and is able to get cracking if the terms and conditions are right.

00:18:30 The third thing I took away is that it will be a challenge for Transport Scotland to award the

00:18:35 contract for the Tomat and Toboy section by the end of this year. And finally dualling in smaller

00:18:43 chunks will be better for the Scottish economy because it keeps the work here. Graeme Barnes

00:18:49 gave evidence to the Petitions Committee last month. I'd like now to introduce the woman who

00:18:54 brought the dual A9 petition and who was also a witness at that hearing. She is A9 Dual Action

00:19:01 Group founder and campaigner Laura Hansler. Laura would you like to join me? Thank you.

00:19:11 You found your way up to the stage. Grab a seat. Thanks very much.

00:19:14 Laura thank you very much for joining us here today. Tell Amy a little bit about yourself,

00:19:21 where you live and what you do. I think as a lot of the audience will realise I live directly on

00:19:26 in the A9 in a very small village called Kincraig. We were one of the first areas to be dualed a

00:19:33 number of years ago now and contractors actually lived within the village. And I looked directly

00:19:39 onto the A9 and I can hear the increase in traffic but I'm also very aware of the sirens,

00:19:44 different sirens, you could name them, which emergency services come out. And the increase

00:19:53 in the emergency service from summer school, Easter summer holidays, to the summer, right

00:19:59 through to the October holidays, there's a very sharp increase of emergency services on that road.

00:20:06 And is that what prompted you to actually start the A9 Dual Action Group? No, it was actually

00:20:13 talking to three families that done it. There was a photograph of a car that went out on social

00:20:19 media one night and the person had actually sustained fatal injuries and that car was

00:20:26 visible before the family had been notified of the person's death. And they contacted me through my

00:20:33 social media page to speak to me about that and how the evening unfolded from a perfectly innocent

00:20:38 person going about their daily life on the A9 to an absolute tragedy for that family. And to hear

00:20:44 that first hand witness account is something you can't really prepare yourself for. I'm used to it

00:20:49 with my background. And your background is? I am ex-NHS. So I'm used to dealing with patients

00:20:58 and etc. and fatalities. But to hear that kind of fatality and how that evening completely unfolded

00:21:06 and unravelled for that family, you know, the immediate next to him only knew, but the rest of

00:21:12 the family had absolutely no idea that this person had received fatal injuries. But you could identify

00:21:17 that vehicle quite easily. So you then started with what? What was your first thing that you

00:21:24 did? How did you start the campaign? Did you bring people together? There was a lot of conversations.

00:21:30 I had, there was people in the community that spoke to me before. Was there something I could do?

00:21:35 Because I am quite outspoken. I'm known for being outspoken. I'm a very passionate person.

00:21:40 You know, a lot of people will speak to me in confidence about different things. And I got

00:21:46 together with another gentleman and we formed the A9 Action Group. And we've kind of used that as

00:21:51 a basis. I have experience with the petitions committee before. And I knew that that was the

00:21:57 route that we really had to use to get any kind of real solid action to take things forward. There's

00:22:02 not really any point just doing a petition. It's got to be based on a sort of legal basis, if you

00:22:09 like. It is a government problem. So we have to be down that route. Okay. You talked about hearing

00:22:16 the sirens as you're living on the A9. What is it that goes through your mind? I think there's a

00:22:24 kind of sequence of events when you hear the sirens. You know, you first hear the sirens,

00:22:27 sometimes they're cut through your village to cut back up onto the A9 anyway. And then you hear the

00:22:32 different sirens coming over. You'll hear the air ambulance coming over. So you think it's bad. The

00:22:37 road's closed. You know, within minutes the A9's closed. It's on social media. You'll then hear the

00:22:42 air ambulance and then you think that's a fatality. The road's closed. They're waiting an accident.

00:22:47 Investigators come. So you know by the kind of length of hours what's happening. And you're just

00:22:52 thinking, who is it? Who do I know? Is my partner home? Is my son home? You know, you're automatically

00:23:01 thinking of, you know, X, Y, or Z was going up that road the day. Are they home? Are they back

00:23:05 home today? And of course, it's got pretty close to the communities recently. There have been

00:23:10 people within our direct communities have died now. It's not always, you know, it's quite easy

00:23:15 to blame it on tourists or, you know, foreign drivers. It's not. There's very innocent people

00:23:20 from Inverness, from my small rural community, now being killed on this road going about their

00:23:24 daily business. And if that's the impact on you and on your community, then we can imagine that

00:23:30 that will be happening right up and down the length of the A9. Yeah, there's a lot of people

00:23:35 talking to me from Perth to Thursdale actually, although the petition is focused on Perth to

00:23:41 Inverness because that is where the number of fatalities are being felt in the communities.

00:23:45 As it does go beyond obviously Inverness as well right up to Thursdale. Of course, now it's the

00:23:50 fatal accidents unfortunately that do make the biggest headlines. But they aren't the only ones

00:23:56 that have impact. Say a little bit more about that. So I've asked in the, you know, if we're trying to

00:24:01 get data, if you're trying to get information through fatal accident inquiries, it is really

00:24:06 quite difficult and some of them are really quite caged. The one thing that I'm very interested to

00:24:10 hear about, I want to know the statistics on the people that have received life-changing injuries.

00:24:16 You know, we've got people out there that have got traumatic brain injuries and there is nobody

00:24:23 giving me statistically the excuse that I got for not giving me this freedom of information was

00:24:28 actually the cost that it would cost to just, you know, actually get this data. And I think that is

00:24:34 inexcusable. There's people that have lost their careers, they've lost their homes, they have lost

00:24:39 husbands, wives, families, you know, they have severe disabilities because of injuries received

00:24:47 out on this road. And there is nobody helping these people at all. Nobody's taking responsibility for

00:24:54 this. So while a lot of the focus is perhaps rightly on the fatalities of families who have

00:25:01 lost loved ones and the impact on their families and around their networks, the impact of that must

00:25:07 just be awful. In fact, the picture could be much greater than this or the impact is greater because

00:25:13 there are lots of collisions where people have life-changing injuries as well. Of the 13 fatalities

00:25:18 between Inverness and Perth last year, 12 were on single carriageway sections and one was, I

00:25:25 understand, a single vehicle accident on a dual carriageway section. What's your understanding

00:25:31 about why there are more accidents on single as opposed to dual sections? I think with the A9,

00:25:38 it really is an ambiguous road and I mean, I know I've quoted that time and time again in the press,

00:25:44 but you go between single carriageway, you go to single carriageway with crawler lanes,

00:25:48 you have the ambiguous signs about the HDV trial that is a never-ending trial, which is,

00:25:53 you know, that's a problem in itself and you're back onto dual. Now I can sometimes lose my

00:25:58 landmarks on that road and I've been driving that road for 18 years now. In fact, it's actually over

00:26:02 20 actually, if I think about it. And I find it quite ambiguous. The road's probably in the worst

00:26:08 state of repairs it has been in two decades now. And certainly on a single carriageway, you're going

00:26:13 to have the worst accidents. You'll have your multiple vehicles, your head-on collisions. If

00:26:18 you've got a fixed central reservation, the propensity for those accidents to happen are

00:26:22 nearly nil, you know. Because you're not actually having, there may still be collisions, but you're

00:26:27 not hitting somebody who's coming at you straight. You're not coming at you head-on. So, you know,

00:26:30 if you look at the physics of two cars going into a head-on collision, the velocity of that accident

00:26:37 is far greater. So whatever happens, it is going to be a long time before the entirety of the A9

00:26:45 is duelled between Perth and Inverness and beyond. What would you like to see happening in the

00:26:50 meantime? Part of the petition has asked for immediate extrajudicial safety measures to be

00:26:55 implemented. Now, by that I do not mean we need junctions re-marked. The junctions are in a

00:27:01 ridiculous state of repairs. You know, if you just look even between Carr Bridge to Raleigh, now

00:27:06 that's a very small section and I know that's not covering everybody, but the junctions are

00:27:11 absolutely dire. They're not lit, they're not marked, they've broken the bollards right over

00:27:16 on themselves. And yes, that's because they're getting hit as well. But it's basic things like

00:27:21 lineage, but we really need to look at far more reaching safety measures all up that road.

00:27:28 Such as? Such as?

00:27:30 The shopping list. The shopping list. Well, can we have white lines

00:27:34 that are properly marked? Can we have junctions that are properly lit?

00:27:39 They need to all be congruent in how they're lit up. You know, you'll go from one section where

00:27:44 you can have snow poles or white lines or cat signs, but please don't ask for all three in

00:27:48 any one section and then within 100 yards you're back onto a very dire section that's not lit. So

00:27:53 every few hundred yards you're just flitting between a very well maintained section to a

00:27:58 very poor maintained section. It's just not up to standard whatsoever.

00:28:03 Okay. What would you like the outcome of your action to be? I know you've got your Facebook

00:28:11 page, but from the Petitions Committee, what has happened since the evidence was taken at that

00:28:16 Petitions Committee? So obviously the Petitions Committee,

00:28:20 I mean it can be a long process for this. You know, there's a lot of things going behind the

00:28:24 scenes. Obviously I did send an open letter to the First Minister and the Minister of Transport

00:28:31 and the Secretary. I've had no response to that. I then released it within 24 hours to the Courier

00:28:38 to use as well. So I'm still waiting on a response to that. If I had a magic wand, I want a timetable.

00:28:44 These communities need a timetable. We need to know what's happening. The electorate has a right

00:28:49 to know what's happening. You're voting these people into power. They're promising you these,

00:28:54 you know, these cast iron guarantees. So where are they? Where are they? Let these communities

00:29:00 know what you're going to do for them. What do you say to the accusation that it's not the road

00:29:06 that's dangerous because a road cannot be dangerous. It just lies there. It's all to do with

00:29:10 the drivers. I've always said from the start, we will never teach people how to drive better.

00:29:16 But every time you get into a car, you're responsible for yourself in that vehicle.

00:29:20 You're responsible to make sure your insurance is in place, your driver's license is in date.

00:29:25 It's very simple things. The minute you're in that vehicle, but that road, if I look at different

00:29:30 things, you know, I have experience from the A77 in Ayrshire, then becoming the M77. We're not

00:29:36 asking for a motorway. We are asking for that road to be dualled. There's 33,500 vehicles travel that

00:29:42 road every single day. As Graham said, bringing up essential supplies and emergency services have

00:29:48 to transport people safely up and down to a regular hospital. We're asking for it to be

00:29:52 dualled. It's quite a dangerous road because it's so ambiguous. It's in a very bad state of repairs.

00:29:57 To a foreign driver, I really don't know how. I'm not surprised that it's ambiguous to them.

00:30:04 You know, there's so many things need to be looked at across the board on that road.

00:30:08 And of course, we're asking for it to be dualled, having been given the promise that it would be

00:30:12 dualled and that promise not having been met up to now. Laura, I can feel your passion. I can see

00:30:19 the emotion. I can see how much this matters to you. Thank you so much for joining us here today.

00:30:24 You're going to stay and be part of our panel? Thank you very much. You sit tight. Ladies and

00:30:28 gentlemen, Laura Hanslow. I'd like now to invite the rest of the panel to join me on stage, if I

00:30:39 may. And they are, and if I can put them in order in which they'll come up. Alison Irvine from the

00:30:45 Interim Chief Exec of Transport Scotland. Alison, you can come round the window if you like, but if

00:30:50 you're happy to step up, then please do. Thank you, Alison. Mary McCallum, the Cabinet Secretary

00:30:56 for Transport, Net Zero and Just Transition. Thank you very much. Rob Galbraith is next,

00:31:01 also from Transport Scotland. He's Head of Construction and has responsibility for the A9

00:31:06 Delivery Team. Fergus Ewing, MSP for Inverness and Nairn is next. Fergus is going to take the

00:31:14 safe route via the ramp. And Colin Marr, Chief Executive of Inverness Chamber of Commerce.

00:31:22 Ladies and gentlemen, this is our panel.

00:31:24 Now we have invited our panellists to make brief statements before our discussions start.

00:31:41 Laura and I have already spoken, so she is off the hook as far as that conversation goes.

00:31:46 And Mary is going to talk on behalf of both herself, her own role. Is it my mic that's,

00:31:52 I'm not sure why we've got a little bit of feedback there, but hopefully if we all stand stillish,

00:31:58 it's me, isn't it? I'll sit down. Then, yes, Mary is going to talk on behalf of Transport Scotland,

00:32:06 she's got a little bit longer. And Fergus is going to talk as well. But I wonder, Colin,

00:32:10 if I can invite you to take to the podium first. Thank you very much.

00:32:14 Thanks very much, Nikki. You have heard from others about the issues of procurement. You've

00:32:22 heard about how our population feels about the government pledge to dual A9 by 2025 being broken.

00:32:28 And above all, you've heard about the tragic loss of life and how much of that could have been

00:32:33 avoided. My role is not to cover any of these subjects, but is to give a view from the business

00:32:39 community on the harm that the A9 is causing to high-end businesses. I don't have time to give

00:32:44 individual examples, but I will say that I've received representations from just about all our

00:32:49 business sectors, tourism, food, farming, health, construction, manufacturing, even auctioneering.

00:32:55 The problems fall into three areas. The first way, there's the reality,

00:33:01 the difficulty of getting here and how long that takes. And that applies equally to goods and to

00:33:07 staff and to tourists. It's not actually about how long that journey takes. It's about how unreliable

00:33:14 that time is and how even a small incident like a broken down car can have a disproportionate effect

00:33:21 on your journey time. The second issue is perception. That road has such a bad reputation

00:33:28 that people are put off from coming here. Tourists will find a route that doesn't involve a dangerous

00:33:35 road. Businesses are reluctant to locate here because of that road and staff are reluctant

00:33:41 to work here because of the perception of how hard it is to get to somewhere else.

00:33:45 And finally, there's the worry. And I'm going to sum that up with a quote which came to me

00:33:51 from a Highland business owner. And what he said was, "As I get older and the Gulf increases in

00:33:57 age between myself and the younger members of my team, I find myself increasingly worrying

00:34:03 for their well-being while driving the A9." I think we all probably share a bit of that worry.

00:34:08 We share that worry for our employees. We share that worry for our families.

00:34:12 And I don't believe it's a burden that's shared in the rest of Scotland.

00:34:15 So what needs done? Our connectivity is simply not good enough. As well as the A9 between Inverness

00:34:23 and Perth, we really could be talking about A9 North, we could be talking about A96, we could

00:34:28 be talking about our trains. I'm sure we'll return to trains later. But we're here because there was

00:34:33 an absolute government commitment to dualling the A9. And the residents and the business community

00:34:38 feel let down by that commitment being broken. It's often said by government that Scotland can't

00:34:44 reach its net zero targets without the Highlands. Whether that's going to be wind energy, battery

00:34:51 storage, pump story or hydrogen, most of it is going to happen here. And sorting the A9 is crucial

00:34:57 for that. Not only for the transportation of supplies, but because of the perception of that

00:35:02 road and the barrier it's causing to business growth, including our ability to attract the

00:35:07 staff that these vital new industries need. If we don't sort it, then there's a serious danger that

00:35:14 the potential benefits of the Inverness and Cromarty Firth Green Freeport won't be fully realised.

00:35:20 And there's a danger that Scotland will continue to miss its net zero targets.

00:35:23 To change that perception, we need a credible plan from the Scottish Government and from Transport

00:35:29 Scotland. A plan which is constantly updated, a plan which is in the public domain, but not just

00:35:36 a global A9 target. We need that as a section by section target. We need to detail the design,

00:35:42 the procurement and the start and completion dates for each section. Only then do I believe

00:35:49 the Highland community will trust its government that this is actually going to happen.

00:35:52 And only then will that drag on our business potential finally be released.

00:35:58 Thank you ladies and gentlemen. Firstly, thanks to the Inverness Courier and indeed to the other

00:36:09 papers journalists, the Strathae, if it's not a heretical reference to the Press and Journal.

00:36:16 And all of you who have campaigned for the dualling of the A9. Just at the weekend there,

00:36:23 we had the memorial service to my late mother. I'm pleased to say that she managed to live to

00:36:28 the age of 93. And it's bad enough when you lose a loved one in your family, but she had a long

00:36:34 and full life. But every single one of the people who have lost their lives, 339 I think,

00:36:43 on the A9 over the years, has life has been truncated. It's been cut short. And in every

00:36:49 single case is left behind a devastation of misery and grief in every single family.

00:36:58 Therefore, this is a matter of life and death, which is unusual in politics. It's of the utmost

00:37:09 importance that we do the A9. I've campaigned for it for far too long, for in fact, a couple of

00:37:14 years before I think the Minister was on this planet, because sadly I fought eight elections.

00:37:19 And I was therefore delighted when my party in government in 2007 very quickly made a commitment

00:37:24 to it. But I'm afraid to say, I can only say that my shame that we haven't made more progress.

00:37:30 There's no point in beating about the bush or giving a spin or excuses. I'm not going to do

00:37:34 that today. I never had as a minister for 14 years, make a responsibility for this matter at all.

00:37:42 And when you're a minister, you deal with your own job, which is usually more than enough to

00:37:46 be gone with. But that's no excuse. I don't shirk my responsibility, my collective responsibility,

00:37:52 which I observed as a minister for 14 years. Since I've been unleashed by the former First

00:37:58 Minister for Ministerial Office, I have however, sought to make it absolutely clear,

00:38:03 as your representative, as your voice in Holyrood, that this work must now be completed.

00:38:12 It is simple as that. And I think that the excellent presentations thus far have said

00:38:20 things that I don't need to repeat. But there are three things that plainly require to be done.

00:38:24 Firstly, a detailed revised completion date for the 25 day that we so abjectly failed to deliver.

00:38:33 And in combination with that, and to buttress and give ballast and credibility to that,

00:38:38 details and a timescale of the completion of each of the remaining nine sections. So to

00:38:44 Martin Tymoy might be 224 to 226, and so on and so forth for each of the nine remaining sections.

00:38:51 Secondly, there needs to be a radical change to the contract as Graham Barnes set out. And I've

00:38:57 worked with 20, 30 hours with Graham on this. And that must be changed. And thirdly,

00:39:03 and most important of all, the political will must be there, as Colin has just said,

00:39:08 and it hasn't been there. And I would like to hear from the Minister on each of these three things.

00:39:13 And I can't forbear to say that there is concern, Cabinet Secretary, that the influence of the

00:39:20 Greens in government is malign. And even that the green tail is wagging the dog. Well,

00:39:26 I campaigned on an unrelated matter for tail docking for the welfare of the animal.

00:39:34 Tail docking is legal in Scotland. I just mentioned that it's perfectly possible to take

00:39:40 the ultimate remedy. But even if that doesn't happen, let's show who's boss. And if the First

00:39:46 Minister says it's a cashed-around guarantee, there must be a plan. How could there not be a

00:39:50 plan? If you have a cash guarantee, you're going to do something complex. You need a plan. And you

00:39:57 need to persuade people that you mean it, that you believe it, and you're going to ascribe the money.

00:40:02 The rest of Scotland has seen excellent progress. The Forth Crossing for Fife, the Borders Railway

00:40:08 for the Borders, motorways for Glasgow, the peripheral road for Aberdeen, and Edinburgh,

00:40:14 in its wisdom, God help them, chose the trams. They've had their major improvements. Now,

00:40:23 now, it is the Highland's turn. And in conclusion, Nikki, for me, this is a matter of honour.

00:40:31 I will not stand here in a year's time and continue to support this government

00:40:40 unless they deliver, and they deliver as quickly as possible, on all of the three things.

00:40:48 And if they don't do that, I don't think, frankly, we would deserve to continue to be

00:40:55 in government. So I'm very much looking forward to hearing what the Cabinet Secretary has today.

00:41:02 And I hope it's full of substance, passion, and commitment. That's what Nikki, the people of the

00:41:10 Highlands, and the people here want and expect and are entitled to have delivered from their government.

00:41:18 Thank you, Nikki. Thank you very much.

00:41:25 Can you hear me okay? Yeah. Thank you. I just want to begin by thanking the courier,

00:41:34 the organisers for putting on this event and for inviting me to come along.

00:41:39 I was pleased to, and I hope that us coming and bringing my senior officials with me is

00:41:44 demonstrative of our commitment to this issue. I want to begin by offering my sincere,

00:41:52 my heartfelt condolences to every single person who has suffered within their families

00:41:58 from a loss on the A9. I had a knot in my stomach when some of the experiences were being described

00:42:05 earlier, and I know that that is but microscopic compared to the lifetime of grief that people are

00:42:12 suffering. So my condolences go to them. So too, they do go to those who've suffered injuries and

00:42:17 anyone who doesn't feel safe when driving the route. And I am with you in that. I have myself,

00:42:24 or when with my family, often had my heart in my mouth emerging from some of the junctions

00:42:29 on this route. But all of that is to say that I acknowledge that the situation as it stands

00:42:35 is not fit for purpose. And that acknowledgement is exactly what informs Scottish Minister's

00:42:42 commitment that the A9 between Perth and Inverness will be dualled. And I just want to repeat that.

00:42:47 I am committed, the First Minister is committed to the completion of that project. Now, clearly,

00:42:54 things have not moved at the pace that we would have wanted them to. And I want to cover some of

00:43:02 that and crucially what we do and what I'm going to do to try and overcome those challenges. But

00:43:08 before I do that, I just want to dispel one myth. And that is that there is any impact from the

00:43:16 Bute House Agreement on our commitment. The Scottish Government were committed to completing

00:43:21 this dualling route prior to the Bute House Agreement. And that stands. So please allow me

00:43:26 to scorch that myth for what it is. Now, since I came into post just a matter of weeks ago,

00:43:34 I've had a number of issues to contend with. But among my foremost priorities are making urgent

00:43:40 progress on the dualling of the A9. And that's largely taking place on two fronts. Firstly,

00:43:47 my first and foremost priority is about getting the new procurement out of the door on to Matton

00:43:53 to Moy route. The non award that happened this year was the first time that that had happened

00:44:00 in decades. And we don't want to happen. We don't want it to happen again. So referring to some of

00:44:05 SICA's comments, Transport Scotland are working urgently just now with industry to test how we

00:44:11 can change our contractual terms in order to make them more favourable, and I hope deliver a faster

00:44:18 successful procurement that will deliver value for money. And in that I can confirm today that

00:44:23 we are looking at the new engineering contract as part of that. So that's the first thing.

00:44:27 The second one, of course, is the timetable for the dualling of the remainder of the route.

00:44:33 And after the summer recess, I will update the Scottish Parliament on a timetable for that,

00:44:38 with details of the procurement that will go alongside that. And in the meantime,

00:44:43 I want to see the continued work on the safety measures and the delivery of the £5 million

00:44:49 worth of safety measures that we have been making available, which actually responded to some of

00:44:55 the trends that emerged in the accidents in 2022 and were taken from conversations with elected

00:45:00 reps. So they're my priorities and I'm working on them at pace. But I just want to be clear that

00:45:06 the dualling of the A9, our commitment, will be and is the single largest and most complicated

00:45:13 transport engineering project in Scotland's history. Now, the results of the Tomat and

00:45:20 Timoy section were very disappointing. They speak to two things. One, the contract terms,

00:45:26 which as I've said, we are looking at, and the context in which we are operating.

00:45:30 When that procurement came to an end, it was in some of the most volatile economic circumstances

00:45:36 that we have faced, frankly, since the world wars, with the pandemic and the coincidence of that

00:45:42 with Brexit and other matters. But I assure you today that I am working urgently and with

00:45:51 great passion and I carry with me everything that I hear about the suffering that has happened on

00:45:56 this road. I carry that with me as I take forward this important task. So I will update as soon as

00:46:02 I can and I will get the procurement for Tomat and Timoy out of the door as soon as I can and

00:46:07 I hope it will be successful with different contractual terms. And I will thereafter update

00:46:12 as soon as I can on the timetable for the remainder of the programme. And that is my

00:46:17 commitment to you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Can I just come to you first, Laura,

00:46:25 to come back with a reaction to what you've just heard from from Mairi.

00:46:28 I think we all heard the fact that the road is not fit for purpose. I think it's also the very

00:46:35 first time that any minister has actually apologised to us and the families for these

00:46:39 fatalities and these accidents. So I appreciate you apologising first and foremost, because you're

00:46:44 the first minister to actually do that for the communities. I think it's startling to actually

00:46:51 have it acknowledged that this road isn't fit for purpose and we have got to find a way forward now.

00:46:56 But it is the timetable and it is breaking us down into smaller sections. 11 sections was never

00:47:02 achievable. It's far too many projects to be taken ahead for any contractual agreement. So I think we

00:47:08 need it in much more smaller sections to make it far more achievable for our communities.

00:47:14 But you're heartened by what you've heard so far. I need to see it in action. You need to see it in

00:47:20 action. I think words are fantastic. I've heard a lot of words before. We've all heard a lot of

00:47:25 words before, but we need action. We need direct action. So we have been made these promises before.

00:47:31 The promise was in the 2007 SNP manifesto. It was in the 2011 Scottish Government infrastructure plan

00:47:38 and we have had these cast-iron promises before and they have not been made. They've not been

00:47:44 met up to now. Graeme told us that it would have been possible to have dualled the A9 by 2025

00:47:50 but there needed to be that plan, there needed to be that budget to pay for the plan and there

00:47:55 needed to be the political will. I have piles of questions here. We have a very well-informed and

00:48:02 interested audience here who I guess all have questions. What I would like to do is sort of

00:48:07 work through the questions I have in order and if anybody would like to come in on anything,

00:48:12 that means members of our audience, it also means members of our panel, then I would ask you just to

00:48:18 give us a wave and to do so. We have a couple of microphones in the audience and either Louise or

00:48:26 Lynn will come to you. We are recording this so if you could wait till the microphone comes to you

00:48:31 and give us your name when you ask your question that would be grand. And because we are tight for

00:48:35 time if I can ask you please to keep it brief. I know that we all have really passionate stories

00:48:41 to tell about this but if we could keep it to a short statement and a short question

00:48:45 that would be absolutely grand. Mairi, has there been a plan up to now?

00:48:53 Yes there has and I just want you know I'm not making excuses so I'm starting my comment here

00:48:59 as I did in my opening remarks that progress hasn't been made as quickly as we would like it

00:49:03 to. But when we came to government in 2007 and Turgisan was on the planet, I'm not as young as

00:49:07 you think I am, there was not a single commitment to DNA nor was there a solitary plan drawn. Well

00:49:15 there was a cast-iron guarantee in a manifesto and in an infrastructure plan. No no sorry I'm

00:49:19 just saying but at the time when we came into government there was no commitment prior to that

00:49:23 nor was there a single drawing. And where we are now, albeit that it hasn't been fast enough,

00:49:28 we have two sections due out, we have eight out of the nine remaining with ministerial sign-off,

00:49:33 one the remaining section is very challenging and we have a co-development process ongoing

00:49:38 with the local community there on the design of it. Now when we finished, when the last section

00:49:44 to open did so in 2021, we ought then to have been able to move to the procurement of Tamatin

00:49:51 Tumoi. But as I said in my remarks, we really can't forget the disruption of that period as it was

00:49:59 following the pandemic, following Brexit where inflation was running at 10 percent, construction

00:50:06 inflation even higher. So that disrupted the Tamatin Tumoi section. Now my focus is not on

00:50:14 crossing my fingers and hoping that all that goes away but actually on looking to see what is in our

00:50:19 gift as the Scottish Government to make a difference, to make sure that when we re-procure

00:50:25 it's successful and that's about the contractual terms. So that's exactly why we are looking at

00:50:29 this Transport Scotland contract which has served us fairly well for 20 years, Tamatin Tumoi being

00:50:36 the first no award. We're asking ourselves what can we do on that risk profile that was mentioned

00:50:42 before to make this a more attractive offer so that more companies bid in and we can make progress.

00:50:49 Now Fergus has indicated that he wants to come in but just before I do that,

00:50:52 who has responsibility here for the terms and conditions of the Transport Scotland contract?

00:50:57 Is it Transport Scotland or is it the Scottish Government? Transport Scotland are part of the

00:51:03 Scottish Government and Ministers have overall responsibility. So Ministers have overall

00:51:07 responsibility so it's not a case that in 2011, Rob I'm looking at you and I don't know if you

00:51:12 were in a position post in 2011 that you were given the job of here you go, here is this three

00:51:17 million pounds that we've heard was available, away you go and you'll be A9 and it's really you

00:51:25 that we drag in your heels. There's maybe a fundamental point to pick up there, the concept

00:51:29 of three billion pounds having been earmarked and set aside is completely incorrect. The way that

00:51:35 the estimate works it's an estimate that over the lifetime of the contract it will cost that amount

00:51:41 of money at that point in time, estimated at that point in time, but it needs paid for out of annual

00:51:46 budgets as the work is actually done. You don't put money in a bank and just draw down on that

00:51:51 sum of money as and when, so that's it. You need to be really careful about this kind of suggestion

00:51:57 of an earmarking of money that just doesn't happen within Government. In terms of a plan for delivery

00:52:02 and contracts it all works together, you have to have a particular form of contract to have an

00:52:07 understanding of first of all how you procure it and then the implications of that for how long

00:52:11 it's going to take to construct. So until you've made your choices on what contract you're going

00:52:16 to adopt you don't know exactly. And who is making those choices? Ultimately Ministers are responsible

00:52:21 for making choices and officials provide advice to Ministers to assist with that process.

00:52:26 Okay, so what was happening then in the 10 years effectively between 2011 and 2021? I mean there

00:52:34 were two sections out of the nine, out of 11. What was happening during that period? Was it just a

00:52:40 case everyone kind of treading water waiting for Ministers to say yes okay you can spend some money?

00:52:46 I would very much note and my colleague Alison probably wanted to come in as well on this,

00:52:50 but there's an enormous amount of work that goes on in that period because once a project is

00:52:55 initiated you go through an entire process that's dictated by the standards and the methodologies

00:53:01 that we need to work to, to determine first of all the right place to be building it, what form

00:53:07 it should take and then to get the statutory consents to it. And through that process you have

00:53:11 to do a lot of consultations with affected communities, interested parties, stakeholders

00:53:16 and ultimately you go through a legal process then to gain the consent and all of that takes

00:53:21 quite significant periods of time. Graham Barne representing contractors, contractors tend not to

00:53:27 recognise that things happen on projects before they leave construction. He just anticipated my next question.

00:53:31 And so when he's referring to not much visibility of things happening he's accurate in construction

00:53:37 terms but that's because there's so much work has to be done in preparation before you can bring it

00:53:42 to the market for construction. So was he mistaken then when he said quite clearly that at the time

00:53:48 the promise was made you know it was in this transport infrastructure document in 2011, was he

00:53:54 mistaken then when he said that it could have been completed by 2025? So if everything had worked the

00:54:01 way it could have worked it would be achievable but a variety of things affected then delivery.

00:54:07 So what didn't work? So the process of getting the statutory consents ultimately has taken longer

00:54:13 than would have been anticipated at the time, that's part of it and you can't proceed to

00:54:17 to construction and to forming contracts until you've got the statutory consent.

00:54:21 And then of course we ran into the pandemic and that inevitably affected the ability. Well that wasn't until 2020.

00:54:27 Yes but that affects the ability to take things forward. Practical terms construction was in lockdown.

00:54:31 So you've got a lot of things that are happening coming together at that same point in time.

00:54:37 Now it's also around about that period as we began to get more certainty about the contracts that are

00:54:42 emerging from the statutory consenting process that we can start to look at the options for how

00:54:47 they can be taken forward for delivery and construction. So I think that we referenced

00:54:53 from the interview with Graeme Barnes the idea of it could be private finance, it could be design and

00:54:58 build and these are options. There could be a framework agreement. Yeah. Okay, Fergus you wanted to come in there.

00:55:03 Yes, two questions. I was just rechecking the transport website this morning and there are four

00:55:09 sections as Graeme said that are ready and have been ready to go to tender. Namely Tate,

00:55:15 to Ballinwick, Pitlockery, to Killiecrankie, to Llangarrie, to Dalwinnie and Dalwinnie to Coobermoore.

00:55:21 Now these have all been ready to go to tender. Two of them since July 2001 and the other two

00:55:26 since November 2001. So two of these sections have been ready for the money to be applied to

00:55:34 them for two years and two of them have had the money ready to go to tender for 18 months. So my

00:55:41 question, first question is why haven't they gone to tender? If there was a political will,

00:55:49 why wasn't the money from our capital budget applied to that? And secondly for the Minister

00:55:55 in her remarks she said that she would make an update to Parliament on the timetable. She didn't

00:56:01 say that there would be a completion date to replace the 25 deadline, nor did she say that

00:56:08 that timetable would include a clear schedule for when each of the nine remaining sections will be

00:56:16 due. So my question is why haven't the four gone to tender? And you're not worried that this is

00:56:22 casting doubt about our credibility that it's been ready for two years and we haven't applied

00:56:26 the money? And secondly you haven't in response to myself and others given clarity that your update

00:56:32 will include the two things that we want. A completion date to replace 25 and secondly a

00:56:38 clear schedule setting out when each of the remaining sections will be done. Cabinet Secretary

00:56:43 can you answer those two questions please? Thank you Ferguson, thank you Nicky. So I am awaiting

00:56:49 advice from my officials on the best approach to the procurement. Can I ask are these the

00:56:54 officials who are either side of you? They are two of a number of the officials. We have a large

00:56:59 team in Transport Scotland but Alison is the most senior of them and so are my other colleagues.

00:57:04 I am awaiting advice from them on the best approach to the procurement of the remaining

00:57:08 routes. I am not going to pre-empt the outcome of that as the person with the responsibility of this

00:57:15 on my shoulders. I will take the time that I need to consider it all very seriously having only come

00:57:20 into post a number of months ago and I will update Parliament on that and on the timetabling matters

00:57:26 that Fergus raises when we return from summer. But I must take the time to consider it fully.

00:57:32 When we return from summer could be week one of the term, it could be just before Christmas.

00:57:38 I mean are you making, are you guaranteeing or can you guarantee when this figure, when this date

00:57:44 will be, when this announcement will be made for my part? Yes as soon as I possibly can and it will

00:57:49 be, well I think autumn was the timetable that had initially been set. If I can expedite that in any

00:57:56 way I certainly will but that would be the backstop. What is it that you need to put in place

00:58:00 Alison to give that advice? So we are working through all of the evidence, we are working

00:58:06 through all of the business case and that includes all the commercial case work which relates to a

00:58:12 lot of the issues that Graham Barn raised and all of that work is happening at pace. I think you can

00:58:18 hear quite clearly from the Cabinet Secretary the amount of political impetus that is on this piece

00:58:24 of work that is felt very keenly by myself and the team that I have working on this project.

00:58:33 So our job here is to provide the Minister with advice and that is what we are going to do.

00:58:38 I would just kind of take a bit of a step back just on the scale of what we are trying to do

00:58:46 here. So it is 177km between Perth and Inverness, massive massive project. The fact that we have got

00:58:56 to where we are and it is not coming fast enough, that is very obvious in terms of the feelings in

00:59:03 the room and the way that impacts on businesses, on people's lives etc. But to say that there is

00:59:11 not a plan and to say that we were twiddling our thumbs since 2011 actually masks a lot of really

00:59:19 really important work that we have to do in order to have the necessary permissions with which to go

00:59:26 and build these routes. If we have four of the sections in addition to Tumat and Amoy that

00:59:30 already have made orders for us to go, yes Kaye? I will just finish my point. So my point here is

00:59:36 we do not have those permissions in place then what could happen is that we could end up in

00:59:42 trouble for having misstepped part of the process and that would add a significant amount of time

00:59:49 to an already challenging programme. So it is really important that we pay to ground.

00:59:53 So my understanding then, do we have five sections then that already have all of the

01:00:00 permissions and all of the requirements and it is just a case of saying how are we going to finance

01:00:06 them? So to answer the point about the sections of the project where we have made orders and why we

01:00:12 have not moved to procurement since that was in place. So I think Mr Ewing mentioned the timetabling

01:00:19 of that 2019, 2020, 2021. So that was a point in time where we were working on the Tumat and Amoy

01:00:25 contract and it has been very well rehearsed already this afternoon where that has landed

01:00:33 us just given the context in which we were creating it. It is right that we have taken the time and

01:00:39 we are doing that work now looking at our contracts. It would have been I think foolish and improper

01:00:46 for us to have started to roll out more contracts onto the market when we knew we were having some

01:00:52 challenges with the one we did. Maybe just also to further expand that point because I think it

01:00:58 was raised by Mr Ewing with me in the committee session that we had just a month or so ago.

01:01:02 The work we are engaged in and looking at how we deliver the rest of the programme

01:01:07 is fundamentally about comparing the options we have available to us. One of those options is a

01:01:12 private finance option which would involve packaging projects together into a smaller

01:01:18 number of bigger contracts. Those contracts are attractive to certain bidders within the marketplace.

01:01:25 It is a different marketplace, PFI contracts. Is this the idea then that we would perhaps get

01:01:30 Spanish or Italian or German companies coming in? They are typically European in this market

01:01:35 but there is a separate point. The point that I wanted to make is the suggestion that if we start

01:01:40 taking contracts or projects out of that and deliver them as D&B, if you start doing that,

01:01:48 you lose the opportunity to choose private finance. If private finance is actually the best option,

01:01:53 it is taking it off the table unintentionally. We should say that the Scottish Public Finance

01:01:58 Manual requires us to have at least one private finance option on the table.

01:02:03 We are stuck in a stalemate where until you can decide how you are going to finance it all,

01:02:15 you cannot effectively put anything out to procurement because you do not know

01:02:20 whether there are going to be big sections or short sections.

01:02:23 So what happens? Is that all going to be decided and will that all be part of your

01:02:29 part of statement? That is all going to be decided and I appreciate that it feels right now

01:02:34 that you use the word stuck. It can feel like stuck because the work is not happening on the

01:02:39 ground but a huge amount of work is happening behind the scenes, as Alison says, to prepare

01:02:44 us to move to that section. As Alison also said, the political will for that to happen

01:02:49 is exceptionally strong now. No, it has always been strong. As I say,

01:02:59 this is the largest transport infrastructure project in Scotland's history.

01:03:05 How much did the Queen's Ferry crossing cost? About £1.4 billion.

01:03:13 My understanding is there was about a £2 billion underspend in last year's finances.

01:03:27 Getting into territory that I am not comfortable speaking about.

01:03:30 I mean, likewise, I am not the finance secretary.

01:03:35 I think we have a former finance secretary in the room somewhere.

01:03:40 I think it would be highly unlikely that there was £2 billion underspend.

01:03:44 I have come across that. If I had, I would not be sitting here.

01:03:52 I will come to you in a second, sir. Let me just ask Laura to come back on that.

01:03:57 Why on earth is one of the richest small countries within Europe,

01:04:02 I mean we are always branding that about, we are one of the richest countries within Europe,

01:04:07 have you not sought to dual this road consecutively or sequentially?

01:04:13 What on earth is going on? We are all getting a wee bit tired of these little pockets of

01:04:18 £5 million worth of safety measures. £5 million worth of safety measures on a road that was

01:04:23 budgeted back in 2009 to be £3 billion is absolutely nothing. I have said it time and again,

01:04:29 it is an elastoplast on a hemorrhaging wound up here. It is really getting to the point where it

01:04:35 is getting insulting, all these little pockets of money. I agree with that. The £5 million is not

01:04:45 part of the, the dualling is the principal way by which we make this road safer. As you said,

01:04:51 head-on collisions that have a propensity to happen on a single track, on a single carriageway,

01:04:57 are the most dangerous and lead to fatalities. That is why the current situation is not fit for

01:05:02 purpose. That should not be a controversial thing for ministers to say. That is why dualling is our

01:05:07 ultimate goal. We should also be investing in signing and lining and road divisions with audio

01:05:14 when cars deviate onto them. All of that should be happening at the same time. That is what the

01:05:18 £5 million package was. It very much sits beside the dualling programme. Please do not get me

01:05:25 wrong, I do not see it as being in any way a replacement for it. Again, I am just going to

01:05:32 say it is nowhere near enough for the size of that road. It is far too small a budget.

01:05:37 Collette Stevenson, I am going to say it again, she stood up clearly within Parliament in response

01:05:43 to Graham Stevenson's motion on 22 February this year and she clearly said, and it is recorded,

01:05:49 that some of that money was siphoned off to bed under trams. How on earth did that come about?

01:05:54 Again, I have no idea what that statement was that was made and I cannot speak to it with any

01:05:59 accuracy I am afraid. We have a question from the audience here. Yes, gentleman with his hand up and

01:06:04 we will come to you at the back next, sir. I just want to make up first of all this comment about

01:06:10 £3 billion being the largest investment. This is a programme rather than a project.

01:06:14 It has got various sections. Scottish Water have just checked it on their website. The 2021-2027

01:06:20 investment plan is £5.8 billion. They implement it using a programme management approach,

01:06:27 which means they know they have got to spend the money by a certain date. They break it down into

01:06:31 different elements and they have a professional programme manager who is managing the risk.

01:06:36 They build into the programme contingencies in time and cost. When something is delayed,

01:06:41 they move to a different one while they sort out the problem. What seems to be happening here is

01:06:47 that we are hearing about the steps you are taking and you complete each step and then think what is

01:06:52 the next step going to be. To be honest, going back to the 2011 promise, to 2015, just 2025,

01:07:00 that is 14 years. Yet until February this year, it was still visually going to be completed in 2025.

01:07:08 My question is to the Minister, can we actually have a programme management office with a proper

01:07:15 programme budget and contingencies who are looking at the whole basket of risks and reporting to the

01:07:23 public on say a quarterly basis of problems? Problems do arise. That will draw down the

01:07:30 contingency lead into the time and the cost contingency. Actually, we can see that there is

01:07:34 progress. I think the thing that people are most angry about here is hearing in February this year

01:07:40 for the first time that a 2025 deadline was not going to be achieved.

01:07:44 Just firstly, with regards to the largest ever, I did not just mean by way of cost. I meant with

01:07:55 regards to size and complexity. Please allow me to correct that if that was picked up wrong.

01:08:02 The point about Scottish Water is well made. Scottish Water is also one of my responsibilities

01:08:06 and I have been getting myself very closely acquainted with the way that they work their

01:08:10 infrastructure programme and the financing office. As regards transparency, I absolutely agree. I

01:08:16 will certainly take that away and consider how more regular updates can be given because

01:08:22 from a constituency perspective and from my perspective as a government minister,

01:08:25 I empathise entirely with the point that frustrations grow when people do not know

01:08:30 what is happening. Please allow me to take that away and see what I can do. I will consider your

01:08:34 suggestion. Does that answer your question, sir? Yes. Thank you very much. We had a hand raised

01:08:40 at the back. Gentleman in the striped shirt just on the right-hand side as I am looking at you.

01:08:45 Yes, that will be me. Dennis Kearney is my name. Back to the A9 to Martin Moy question,

01:08:52 I have two questions I suppose rolled into one. The first one is, I was involved at the outset

01:09:01 with two of the three contractors who expressed interest originally in pricing the work.

01:09:06 What is it going to change between now and the autumn to encourage contractors to price it

01:09:15 again? That is the first question. Can I ask you just to pause there and we will perhaps come to

01:09:21 this? I do not know which one of the three of you would like to take that. I can introduce it and

01:09:25 then I will hand it over to my colleagues for a bit more detail on what they are doing. We talked

01:09:31 before about the risk profile and Graham mentioned commercial interests and of course their desire

01:09:39 to make money out of a project. I think if I had had the opportunity to speak to Graham today,

01:09:44 I would have been saying that I absolutely understand that but Scottish ministers do not

01:09:49 act on behalf of shareholders, we act on behalf of the Scottish public and we are responsible for

01:09:54 prudently spending public money. So the costing that came back for the one to Martin Moy bid that

01:10:03 remained, under no circumstances could we have accepted that and not been taken to the cleaners

01:10:09 by auditors. If the one price that you received for the A9 to Martin to Moy tender had come close

01:10:23 to your original budget, does that mean that logic would tell me that you would have awarded

01:10:30 the work? Is that correct? The cost was the principal reason that we could not award that.

01:10:34 Yes, but you are not answering the question. If it had been that the actual tender price was close

01:10:41 to the budget of only having one contractor pricing, would you then have awarded the contract

01:10:49 to that single contractor? Please correct me if I am wrong, but it is not to do with the fact that

01:10:54 there was one remaining, it was to do with the cost and the cost was too high. Yes, but if the

01:10:59 tender price... If I could maybe come in just to expand on what the cabinet said. Yes, sorry, I

01:11:02 think I am misunderstanding what you are asking me slightly. Well, no, you have been correct,

01:11:06 Cabinet Secretary, but we have had other contracts that have had single bidders. So the two most

01:11:12 recent M74 completion in Glasgow and A92, A96 Hodding and Roundabout in Aberdeen, both of those

01:11:20 only had single contractors, but we were able to get a point where we were satisfied that the price

01:11:24 was offered was a reasonable market price and therefore good value for the taxpayer. We could

01:11:31 not reach that conclusion. How much over your budget allowance was the price that went in for

01:11:37 A9 to Matton to Moy? All of the terms are confidential, so it is not something that we

01:11:42 would be able to release. That is still commercially confidential. So you are not

01:11:45 able to answer the question is what you are saying? That is commercially confidential

01:11:48 because there is going to be a new procurement. How many million was it?

01:11:52 I do not know if you are going to get an answer to that, Mr Kearney.

01:11:55 I think it is quite clear. What we could do is maybe answer your initial

01:11:57 question about some of what we are looking at amending with regards to our contract terms in

01:12:02 order to make it more attractive. Well, I think that would be useful because I think

01:12:05 Graeme Barne was incredibly clear from his members that if the terms and conditions were more

01:12:13 favourable, then they are ready and willing and able to start working. They want to get the work,

01:12:19 they want to actually get their spades in the ground. I know that is not actually how it works,

01:12:22 but they are keen to get going. If you can answer that point first.

01:12:29 If I take the example that Graeme used in his interview, which is weather, the way that our

01:12:37 contract works at present, weather is all contract of risk. So they get an extension of time, so they

01:12:42 do not have to pay liquidated damages to us if weather affects them, but they bear their own

01:12:47 costs if they are delayed because of weather. Under a change in risk allocation, we as the

01:12:53 employer would take risk. If the weather delays them, then we would pay out money, which means

01:12:59 the taxpayer is paying out money. So the old contract, the traditional contract that has been

01:13:04 used for well over 20 years now, is very good in giving cost certainty. Contractors are expected

01:13:10 to price risk in. They are not expected to take risk without any form of reward, but they are

01:13:15 expected to price risk in. But it means that we get a high level of cost certainty. If we change

01:13:20 that risk allocation, we will probably get lower tender prices, so it will be hard to do a direct

01:13:24 comparison, but we will see that the actual money that we end up spending on the contract at the end

01:13:29 of the day will have increased a bit compared to the tender price because risk will have occurred,

01:13:35 there will have been bad weather, there will have been a need to make additional payments.

01:13:38 But that is all fine. It is just the way that different contract terms work.

01:13:43 We just need to rigorously interrogate it because we are acting on behalf of the people of Scotland

01:13:48 and we have to make sure that we are not going to make changes that will have unintended

01:13:52 consequences, albeit that I am very keen that we get this contract into shape, which means that we

01:13:57 can make progress on the procurement. But of course there is an argument that if you have made

01:14:01 progress on the procurement before we were in this financial state where we are, where we have got

01:14:06 interest rates at the highest rates they have been for 15 years, then the whole thing could have been

01:14:11 completed at a much cheaper cost to the public purse, costs rising prior to all of the things

01:14:18 that we have talked about, Brexit and Covid and, and, and. Well I suppose absolutely, I mean if we

01:14:23 completed prior to Brexit then sure, I cannot take responsibility for Brexit, I cannot take

01:14:29 responsibility for the pandemic, but I will take responsibility for making sure that the progress

01:14:33 we have made now is as good as it can be. Maybe just also, we could not have completed by those

01:14:40 kind of dates in any case because the statutory consents had not been obtained. So you cannot put

01:14:45 the cart before the horse, there is a process that has to be gone through, sometimes the process is

01:14:49 extremely frustrating, but that is unfortunately part of the whole process of delivery. But if,

01:14:57 if we can believe Graham Barnard, maybe you are, maybe you are telling me that it was wrong,

01:15:02 maybe that the original promise then to do the A9 by 2025 was completely pie in the sky,

01:15:09 because surely if it was going to have been completed by 2025, then more of it would have

01:15:14 been done before 2020 than was. I think we have covered that already, as Graham has said and I

01:15:21 would agree with him, in 2011 a timetable to 2025 would have been achievable, but you would need the

01:15:28 consents to come through in line with the original timetable. And there were delays with that. And

01:15:31 once they are delayed that kicks everything. Right, we have got all three of the panel members

01:15:34 here wanting to come in. I am going to come to you first Colin. Just a very quick point,

01:15:39 I have done four major building projects with my wife, two of them were during the pandemic,

01:15:43 so the idea that construction stopped, I don't think is entirely accurate.

01:15:46 But construction inflation, as you know this much better than me,

01:15:50 doesn't work well with normal inflation at all, it is cheaper to do it with.

01:15:53 That was a point not a question. Fergus.

01:15:58 It is two points about Tamatin Tamoy. First of all, Mr Barron in his evidence on the 14th of

01:16:03 June to the petitions committee in response to a question I asked said that the re-tendering

01:16:09 to Tamatin Tamoy is likely to result in an even higher cost unless there is a substantial change

01:16:17 to the risk, i.e. removing risk. So the first question is what risks will be removed in the

01:16:23 re-tender process? And the second point is my understanding is that although the figures are

01:16:29 confidential, that the top bidder in Tamatin Tamoy is likely to have, almost certain to have,

01:16:34 included a contingency of perhaps in the order of 10 or 20 million to cover contingencies.

01:16:41 In other words, the reason that the bid was so high was precisely because the bidders had no,

01:16:47 well the one bidder had no option but to add a very large buffer to counter the fact that

01:16:53 they were responsible for all conceivable risks. So in either case, doesn't it mean Mr Galbraith,

01:16:59 because it's really a technical question, that we may well end up with an even higher bid and

01:17:06 cost to the taxpayer of the re-tendered Tamatin Tamoy contract?

01:17:10 Not sure whether to come in and say something first or?

01:17:14 Yeah, I mean, first of all, this is exactly the process that we're going through just now. It's

01:17:19 examining a very delicate balance of risk. Fergus says what risks are going to be removed. You don't

01:17:24 remove risk, it's a negotiation. You balance risk. And as I say, I am balancing the desire

01:17:31 to make the progress that we need to see here as against the need for me as a Scottish Minister

01:17:36 to be prudent with public spending and to look after the public purse. That's the process we're

01:17:41 going through and we are working very closely with SICA and with industry on that and they

01:17:45 have been receptive thus far to what we are discussing with them and I will update on the

01:17:50 outcome of it all as quickly as I possibly can. So might it be, in your update, I don't want to

01:17:55 push you too far on this, but it might it be that the Tamatin Tamoy section that we have focused a

01:18:01 lot on and talked about a lot today, might not be a section anymore. It might well be that it

01:18:06 will be a longer stretch or a different stretch or whatever or combined with something else.

01:18:11 I think, and again my team can let me know their thoughts on this, but my desire to get it done as

01:18:17 quickly as possible and on a value for money would mean that I wouldn't be looking to change

01:18:21 the section itself. I want to go out on a new procurement with new terms, the same section,

01:18:27 as I say, with speed in mind. Very quickly, you're shaking your head Laura. I'm at an absolute loss

01:18:33 and I'm quite sure some people in the audience also glazed over through some of that as well.

01:18:37 Tamatin Tamoy section, and I know from information and I know who put the bid in,

01:18:42 and I will quote the industry here, was as cheap as chips. It was not the best bid that went

01:18:48 forward. It also cost the construction company £500,000 to put these bids in in the first place.

01:18:54 So you were getting, maybe not value for money, but you were getting cheap as chips. How can that

01:18:59 be any cheaper when you're going to put it out to re-tender yet again with the rates of inflation

01:19:03 as the companies stand? We've got a lady in the green here. If you can give us your name so we

01:19:13 can ask our other contributors through that too. It's Jane Cumming. I was curious about something

01:19:20 Alison Irvine said about working in a business case and that was some of the work that you were

01:19:26 still doing. I mean, surely the business case has been made already. I mean, it's been made to time

01:19:33 and time again. And one of the reasons I mention it is because we've had situations in the past

01:19:39 up here that we just can't get because there's the numbers that we often can't justify road

01:19:45 improvements. The Skybridge would never have been built if you'd look to a business case for it.

01:19:50 We can't get the numbers, but what we do have is a huge amount of whiskey coming down the road.

01:19:56 We're going to have a huge number of people that are going to need to work up here

01:20:00 when all the renewable energy things kick in, they're going to kick in and the Evergarden

01:20:05 Freeport. And so you can't just look at a business case the way that I think Transport Scotland

01:20:10 always look at business cases in the past, which seems to be a numbers game. And it's one of the

01:20:14 things I was involved in the Rural Commission for the SCDI and it was one of the things that we were

01:20:18 most frustrated by is it's all about population. You're never going to get more of a population

01:20:24 up here if you don't do something about the infrastructure. But I think actually on the

01:20:27 Transport Scotland website, there is a business case there and somebody here we are.

01:20:32 Business person on the panel. Would you like to come back on that?

01:20:36 I would like to actually, and I think you've raised some really good points there about the

01:20:41 way in which in the transport sector we perceive to value things and how there is a tendency,

01:20:48 I would say, to value something that you can quantify and point to a number rather than value

01:20:54 what you can talk about, etc. So the business case that Colin has just waved in front of me,

01:20:59 which I think would be the 2016 one, which I was the kind of principal author for,

01:21:05 spent a lot of time and effort talking about what we would call the strategic narrative

01:21:11 that surrounds why we should be investing in projects such as this. And it's exactly the

01:21:16 types of things that Colin mentioned in his opening statement about the need to support

01:21:21 the economy in this part of Scotland and beyond, the renewables, the agriculture sector, etc.

01:21:29 So that's what we're doing. Why are we doing it again? Because it's good governance to review

01:21:35 your business case as you move from different stages and it's good governance for me to be

01:21:41 able to justify to the Cabinet Secretary as she makes the decisions, here is the evidence that

01:21:46 supports the decision that you've got in front of you. And that's what we're doing. I wouldn't

01:21:50 have said, and please take this in the spirit in which it's intended, that this is anything to be

01:21:55 worried about or to be concerned about. I think it's something that we need to do to demonstrate

01:22:00 that we are doing the job for the people of Scotland and that includes all of the people

01:22:03 in this room. But surely the business case is not going to be less than it was in 2016 with the

01:22:11 awarding of the Inverness and Cromarty Fund for Greenpeaport because we told them there would be

01:22:15 25,000 new jobs. So that's it exactly. Things change and we need to ensure that the business

01:22:22 case that we've got here to justify spending what is quite significant in terms of money

01:22:27 captures all of the issues, the opportunities and the benefits associated with what we're doing.

01:22:32 And that's what we're doing. I was just going to ask the Cabinet Secretary who's also responsible

01:22:36 for net zero, if you're concerned about the drag on the report that the connectivity is going to

01:22:44 give us. I'm not wondering if we can hear, is Colin's mic working? Yeah, so obviously the

01:22:52 free board dates, you know, business cases happening now should be in place by January,

01:22:57 a decade's worth of high level of activity. From what you're saying, I'm not imagining the

01:23:03 road's going to be dualled within a decade. What concern does that give you about

01:23:09 realising the potential? First of all, I wouldn't want to write off, I'm not going to write off

01:23:15 substantial progress not being made in that timescale. And the free port, the opportunities,

01:23:22 the challenges, I live in a rural part of Scotland myself, I understand them.

01:23:25 The climate emergency, which of course was declared in 2019 after the publication of that report,

01:23:32 all of these things are part and parcel of the case for the dualling of this road. And I think

01:23:38 your point that a great many of them strengthen it. So I want and I expect the officials in

01:23:43 Transport Scotland to be doing as Alison has described, updating it so that when I go to

01:23:48 my finance secretary and I say I need this money to fulfil this. Do you need to go to your finance

01:23:54 secretary though? Because you said in your statement that Humza Yousaf is absolutely

01:23:58 determined that this is going to happen and you are determined that this is going to happen.

01:24:02 Absolutely, but I can't just turn up and say, give me all the cash. I need to demonstrate

01:24:08 that we've done the work to back it up. That's what we're doing.

01:24:10 Do we have a question? A question here and then we'll move on to talk about safety.

01:24:20 Just to pick up on something Colin said very quickly, he's absolutely right about construction

01:24:26 and COVID. We have a construction company. We were forced to shut for just 12 weeks,

01:24:30 which we're very grateful for. So that can't be an excuse. And one of the things that you're

01:24:35 probably picking up on is in the room, I don't think anyone here believes there is a political

01:24:39 will to get this done. I'm 42. I honestly don't believe this will be done in my lifetime.

01:24:44 Okay, that's a fact. I think the point about the 3 billion that was announced in 2011,

01:24:50 take a point in terms of it wasn't 3 million that was stuck in a bank account. I think we

01:24:54 all understand that. But when you see the money that was spent south of Perth, it leaves us with

01:24:59 the impression that that money has been prioritised to the central belt and actually the Scottish

01:25:04 government doesn't care about people that live north of Perth. That's how we genuinely feel.

01:25:08 Okay, that might seem harsh, but that's the reality. So picking up on Kennedy's point,

01:25:14 I sat in the room as did Fergus, Kate Forbes, I see Ken Gowans is here as well. We all listened

01:25:20 to the First Minister at the Courier Leadership Debate, saying the very first thing that he was

01:25:25 going to do, the first thing was meet with his new finance secretary and put in place a plan

01:25:32 and an allocation of money. That's his words, not mine. On the 15th of June, it was a Tom Arthur,

01:25:39 it was a 244 million underspend that was announced in Parliament from the Scottish budget.

01:25:46 Fantastic. There's spare money available. So can you say today, did that meeting happen between the

01:25:53 First Minister and the finance secretary? I understand you might not be able to answer that

01:25:57 here and now because you don't have access to his diary. But would you commit to the people who

01:26:01 heard that promise that night to the readers of the Inverness Courier that one week from today,

01:26:06 you will come back and confirm that that meeting did happen, that money is being allocated,

01:26:12 and is that 244 million going to be included in the budget for the A9? And would you commit to

01:26:18 come back within a week or two weeks to confirm that? Okay, thank you for your question. There's

01:26:22 a huge amount in it, a lot of which I can't speak to, particularly meetings that the First

01:26:27 Minister has had. What I can say is that I have spoken with the First Minister. I'm the individual

01:26:32 in cabinet who is responsible for the delivery of this project. And the First Minister and I have

01:26:37 been in virtually ongoing dialogue about the progress on it. He's been very clear to me his

01:26:42 expectation that it is done. So I can go away, I can take note of the questions that you've asked

01:26:48 me regarding meetings and regarding funding. Again, I wasn't around for Tom Arthur's statement

01:26:56 and come back to you. But what I can categorically say today is that I am the cabinet member

01:27:00 responsible for this. And the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister, who's the Finance

01:27:04 Secretary, and I have been in ongoing dialogue about the importance of it.

01:27:08 Thank you very much. Thank you. We'll take one more question. Gentleman at the back there.

01:27:15 And then if we can make this quite a brief one, and then we'll move on to issues of safety.

01:27:23 I've never done this before. My name is John Campbell. My name is John Campbell. I drove 200

01:27:29 odd miles to be here today to support you. I come from the southwest of Scotland. I started up the

01:27:35 campaign, the A77 campaign team, to try and get improvement for the safety. I was 30 odd years,

01:27:41 33 years, a part-time firefighter. I've been to hundreds of crashes, dozens of fatalities along

01:27:46 the road. The youngest been three, the oldest been 90. I could speak enough a lot about these things.

01:27:52 The one thing I'd like to say to Laura is we've been to Parliament many times over the last six,

01:27:58 seven years, the group. Sometimes you see them with the Transport Ministers, because there's

01:28:02 been six in the go since we've met four of them so far, and our officials. We've went through,

01:28:08 about four or five years ago, we put in a petition to get through. The 75 and the 77 roads

01:28:15 went through. They were joined up eventually at one time, the chair decided to join them up.

01:28:20 Every now and again, after four years, we've just had a few things from the clerk to say

01:28:26 they've looked at it, one or two wanted to fling it out, other ones said, "No, we want to keep it in."

01:28:31 So don't hold your breath with that one, you've got a petition going soon. So that doesn't happen

01:28:35 too much. Another thing that's very important here that the Minister, I'd like to bring up

01:28:39 with the Minister. The last time we went to see the Transport Minister, about four or five months

01:28:42 ago in Parliament, we were actually invited up there. There were about 20 odd MSPs invited to

01:28:50 get an update about the A77 and the lack of progress there. When the Transport Minister

01:28:56 heard we were coming up, she said, "Can you come and see me before you go to the other meeting? I

01:29:01 don't have time to be at that meeting. I would love to be there, but I won't. There's a debate

01:29:05 on the A9 and the 96 later on in the afternoon, and I've got to prepare for that." So there was

01:29:11 about seven other people in the room. We all witnessed exactly, we all heard exactly what she

01:29:17 said. And not long after she sat down, she said, "You must realise now, because of the Bute House

01:29:23 Agreement, we have got to talk to the Greens about any project that's to do with roads."

01:29:29 Now, we had the meeting, there were plenty of witnesses, as I say. We had the meeting,

01:29:36 then we went to the next meeting with all the 20 odd MSPs. They said, "What did the Transport

01:29:41 Minister say to you?" So we did say exactly what she said. So two hours later, the debate started

01:29:48 in the main chamber about the A9 and the 96, and a lot of the ones that attended our meeting

01:29:54 brought it up about, "We hear that you've got to ask the Greens about any new road." And she

01:30:00 didn't deny it. She says, "That was supposed to be a private meeting. They weren't supposed to

01:30:06 tell you that." When the leader of the Labour Party then stood up and said, "Wait a minute,

01:30:10 do you have private and secret meetings in this parliament?"

01:30:12 Can I wrap you up there? I wonder if there is a question in there, which is about the Green Party

01:30:19 and the Bute House Agreement and whether there is any change in policy since 2021 on the Bute House

01:30:27 Agreement about road building in Scotland. Does that sort of wrap it up?

01:30:31 Yes. No, thank you. And I'm happy to address that. And I was trying to be very clear about it in my

01:30:36 opening remarks because I was involved in some of the negotiations of the Bute House Agreement,

01:30:42 and we were very clear at the time that the A9 wouldn't be affected and that our commitment to

01:30:48 it would not be affected. And that remains absolutely the case. And look, I, as well as

01:30:52 having responsibility for transport in cabinet, I also have responsibility for net zero. So you

01:30:58 might look at that and think, well, perhaps my own climate objectives would get in the way of my

01:31:04 objectives on road building. And what I'm telling you today is that I consider it exceptionally

01:31:09 important that even as we prepare for the climate emergency and to tackle it, that we have safe

01:31:14 roads that are supporting economic viability and prosperity all around Scotland, albeit that we

01:31:20 want electric vehicles to travel on them. For me, they are not incompatible. OK, well, safe roads

01:31:28 brings us on to the next thing that I would like to talk about, which is about safety. And that's

01:31:34 really is at the heart of why the A9 needs to be dualled. We have a question from a woman who lost

01:31:41 her husband. Fiona Keith is with us. She lost her husband in a head-on collision in almost 14 years

01:31:50 ago on the A9. Her son, who has now passed his driving test, is driving the same road with very

01:31:55 little improvement since her husband lost his life. Now, understandably, this is extremely painful for

01:31:59 Fiona. So I have been asked to read the question out on her behalf. And it's a two-part question,

01:32:04 and I'll start with the first part. There are still sections of the A9 where it isn't clear

01:32:10 that you're no longer on a dual carriageway. I think several times that's been mentioned today.

01:32:14 If locals feel that way, then it's no surprise that tourists find that particularly challenging.

01:32:20 What are the plans to improve signage to make it clear that drivers are no longer

01:32:25 on a dual carriageway? And this is presumably until the A9 has been fully dualled. So plans

01:32:31 to make it really clear to drivers where they're on dual carriageway and where they're on single

01:32:37 carriageway. I don't know which of the three of you wishes to take that question. Yeah, I mean,

01:32:41 I can kick it off, and then maybe we can see some of what's been happening. Firstly, Fiona,

01:32:47 I don't know where you are. I just want to say I'm really, really sorry. And thank you for coming

01:32:53 along and for your bravery for being here. And I know that for your son, you'll be thinking a great

01:32:59 deal about what happens in the future and his safety. So I think I said earlier that for me,

01:33:06 one of the greatest motivating factors in getting this project done is because I believe that

01:33:11 dualling is the single greatest response to the risk of head-on collision, which very sadly,

01:33:18 in your case, has had devastating ramifications. I also think that combining that with average

01:33:25 speed cameras is a good combination of activity to try and reduce the risk. Now, when it comes to

01:33:31 the point about, you know, and I had it on the way up today, you're travelling on single

01:33:36 carriageway, you move to dual, you talked about it, I can't remember the... Crawl on lines. Yes,

01:33:42 exactly. That's what you said. And I absolutely get that. So signage is really important.

01:33:46 Clear lining and clear signage. And the five million pounds that I talked about previously,

01:33:53 again, not... I appreciate it's a small bit of work, but it's an important one alongside the

01:33:58 dualling programme. A lot of that has been about improved signing, including when you're moving

01:34:03 from dual to single carriageway. It's been about proper lighting, albeit that you've been quite

01:34:10 clear it's not good enough in certain places. So there is investment going into that. And I should

01:34:16 say, and I'm sorry, I can't remember if I said this earlier, but some of the work that's been

01:34:20 done as part of that pot of cash has responded directly to some of the trends that emerged in

01:34:26 2022, which was a terrible year for fatalities. And also from us speaking to local representatives

01:34:32 about what they thought was best needed. I don't actually have all the detail of what exactly is

01:34:36 happening in that package just now. I can add a bit of detail if that's... Please do, yes. I'd

01:34:41 be glad to hear. And timescales as well, if you can. So the five million pound package was over

01:34:47 three financial years. So what kind of measures are we... And are we one year into that now?

01:34:52 Yes. So between... Last financial year was the first one. So we are looking at

01:34:57 effectively additional lining at the interface between the end of the dual carriageway and

01:35:04 the start of the single carriageway, to make it really clear, or much more clear,

01:35:08 that that change has happened. We are looking at really simple things like putting directional

01:35:14 arrows on the road at regular intervals to remind drivers that this is a two-way section that's

01:35:21 going to be strengthened with additional signage along the side of the routes and where appropriate,

01:35:29 mobile signage as well. Go ahead. So this is, as I said, a three-year programme.

01:35:34 So the first section's complete? The first section's complete.

01:35:37 We are doing work, I think, at the moment on that kind of next section, and we are moving forward

01:35:43 with that as fast as we can. I drove up the A9, I think, last weekend,

01:35:50 and I didn't notice any difference. So, well... I mean, I know the road really,

01:35:55 really well. We've lived up here for 25 years, and I haven't noticed any impact. And I'm wondering

01:36:00 if it's just me being in a bit of a bubble when I drive the road. So I can't comment on your own

01:36:05 experience. I wonder if anybody has noticed. I'm not trying to be obtuse here.

01:36:10 No, and I'm not trying to be obtuse either, but I'm also a bit surprised that this is already

01:36:16 underway and I haven't noticed a difference. How do you want to set this up?

01:36:22 I'm Bill Walton, I'm the Convener of Highland Council, and I live in Aviemore. I drive the A9

01:36:28 every day, and I've seen no appreciable difference other than half a dozen illuminated signs that

01:36:35 tell me not to drive tired. So I'm stupid enough not to know that. You know, if you're going to

01:36:41 spend £5 million, then tell us when this £5 million is going to be spent, and what it's going

01:36:47 to be spent on, because I'm not seeing it. And the people in my community are fed up with body

01:36:53 bags being dragged off the A9. It is £5 million over three years.

01:36:58 Can we just stipulate that? That's absolutely nothing. Your illuminated signs, actually,

01:37:03 at the side of the road are a damn distraction to my drivers. They are winding up the HDV drivers,

01:37:09 and I've got an awful lot of HDV drivers on the group. It's piecemeal and it's insulting,

01:37:15 and it's not going to get the results that we need. I'm sorry.

01:37:19 Can I just add a point to that, please?

01:37:21 Can you wait for the microphone for two seconds?

01:37:24 Chris Miller, at the moment there are no signs on the A9 that tell you what speed you can go at.

01:37:30 You're supposed to be using the highway code. There's no 60, there's no 70. City Bypass

01:37:36 Drive Edinburgh has it because it's a special road, but no, the transport regulations on the A9 do not

01:37:41 allow that. Why not? I mean, something just says 60 and 70 lets people know immediately.

01:37:45 What sort of road they're on?

01:37:47 Is that something that you would consider? Is that something that you could implement?

01:37:51 So again, on the signage, we are aware that it is an issue. We've had that reported back to us.

01:37:58 There are standards that we sign the routes to. We have a level of expectation that when people

01:38:04 pass their driving test that they understand it.

01:38:06 People coming from abroad, though, don't necessarily understand what a black line through a circle is.

01:38:11 We have a lot of awareness campaigns that we work with Visit Scotland, we work with the Highland

01:38:17 Council on to raise awareness and have touch points across that to capture the international

01:38:23 travellers. I take your point, Laura, that the mobile signs are a distraction and that people

01:38:28 are irritated by the driving tired message. But actually, that's really important because

01:38:33 we know that fatigue and driving tired is a major contributor to some of the accidents that have

01:38:40 occurred. Is that not in some way, though, just putting responsibility on the driver?

01:38:45 You're shifting the blame now.

01:38:48 I'm not trying to shift the blame. What I'm trying to say is that there are, in all of these things,

01:38:55 a number of factors which influence it. So you talked at the start about the fact that

01:39:00 head-on collisions occur less when there's a barrier down the middle. That is a fundamental

01:39:06 fact. We do. And when we're on single carriageway sections, then we don't have that protection.

01:39:13 So we are doing what we can to offer and to augment what we have on the ground in order to

01:39:20 raise awareness, provide a degree of mitigation. I think I probably want to say again something

01:39:29 that the Cabinet Secretary said. The level of fatalities which we saw on the route last year

01:39:35 is heartbreaking. It is genuinely heartbreaking.

01:39:38 What about every other year before that?

01:39:42 I can feel the passion in the room. I think last year was particularly bad in terms of the number

01:39:54 of incidents that we have. We are taking...

01:39:57 You're not allowed to do that.

01:39:59 Sorry. I'm just going to finish.

01:40:03 Yes, carry on.

01:40:04 To say that what we're trying to do here is put in preventative measures where we're being

01:40:09 proactive and we're doing that as much as we can.

01:40:12 And signs and sort of reminders that you're on a single carriageway or a dual carriageway or

01:40:17 a 50 mile an hour speed limit or a 70 or a 60. Just letting people know what the sign limit is.

01:40:22 Sorry, everyone's wanted to come in.

01:40:23 I'll come back on that. And I thank Mr Muller for being here. The Edinburgh City bypass,

01:40:28 the A720, is a road of special designation. And I have spoke to Transport Scotland and they

01:40:33 absolutely have categorically refused to put the speed limit and signs on the A9.

01:40:39 Why?

01:40:40 With no good reason whatsoever.

01:40:42 Why?

01:40:42 And you're right, Nicky, a white disc with a black line means absolutely nothing to a

01:40:46 foreign driver in this country.

01:40:47 What is it about putting a speed limit sign up that is offensive or not allowed or not

01:40:55 part of the rules?

01:40:56 So it's not that it's offensive. It's not part of the way in which we sign the routes.

01:41:02 And that signage is consistent across the whole of the country.

01:41:06 It's not particular to Scotland's routes.

01:41:10 But because it's the way you've always done it and it's not working, is that not a real

01:41:14 argument for looking at doing it differently?

01:41:17 They changed the rules for the A82 as well.

01:41:19 Can I say that, again, this is probably a facet of me having been in this post for just

01:41:24 a number of months, but I'm sensing the strength of feeling on that. So if I can, I would like to

01:41:32 consider, take it away, Laura, and consider to what extent it is or is not possible.

01:41:36 I can't speak today on you haven't been doing this for years or whatever.

01:41:40 I mean, other roads have been given special designation.

01:41:43 And I think one of the big standard points right now is, for goodness sake, do something

01:41:47 about the A9, get speed limit and signs up, get those HGV trial signs down because they're

01:41:53 actually automated cars are breaking so severely coming off the dual sections as well.

01:41:58 You've got the A82 with special designation, you've got the A720.

01:42:02 This is the A9.

01:42:04 Can you please just do something?

01:42:06 I'd like to comment, if I may, there was a second part to Fiona's question.

01:42:13 Have you considered implementing no overtaking zones because there are black spots where

01:42:20 it really is not safe?

01:42:21 And not part of her question, but I'm wondering if this is where we have junctions where people

01:42:27 are turning right across the carriageway.

01:42:29 And I wonder if it's simple as somewhere, double heavily lines.

01:42:32 Yeah, I mean, I wonder if you could come in and maybe talk about this platooning effect

01:42:37 that is, I think basically, if I can introduce the fact that there is nothing that I won't

01:42:43 consider in order to try and do what we can to make this road as safe as possible whilst

01:42:48 the duality programme completes.

01:42:50 So if I could just make that very clear.

01:42:53 Having said that, I think it's important to know that some of these points have been

01:42:56 considered by my officials who've been working on this for a long time.

01:42:59 So if they want to share some of the reasoning that has gone into developments to date, fine.

01:43:04 But for my part, I want to take all of this and do anything that I can to improve the

01:43:09 situation.

01:43:10 And I'll maybe hand to you if you want to say something.

01:43:13 If I can maybe expand on a few points there, Cabinet Secretary.

01:43:16 So first thing to maybe step back a little bit, there's a group already in existence

01:43:21 called the A9 Safety Group, which involves Transport Scotland, local authorities, Police

01:43:25 Scotland.

01:43:26 2012.

01:43:26 A large number of stakeholders, I believe so.

01:43:28 And they meet collectively to discuss opportunities to improve road safety on the A9 as an

01:43:35 interim measure pending full dualling.

01:43:38 And that's been continuing, as the Cabinet Secretary says, for a long time.

01:43:40 The measures that we're talking about over the three year period that we're now in the

01:43:45 process of doing have all been discussed and developed in consultation with the Safety

01:43:49 Group.

01:43:49 They're not things that have come up in isolation.

01:43:51 So that's really important, I think, to emphasise there's a lot of stakeholder involvement

01:43:55 in this.

01:43:56 On some of the things we're discussing, things like no overtaking zones, we're talking

01:44:00 about the way we regulate roads.

01:44:01 Now, in effect, we have no overtaking zones already because where there's double continuous

01:44:06 white line on the road, you're committing a road traffic offence if you cross that line.

01:44:10 So that is telling you you're not allowed to overtake.

01:44:13 Now, I'm wondering again if it's me not paying attention, but I'm not aware of those on

01:44:19 the A9.

01:44:20 They are.

01:44:20 They're present.

01:44:21 They are?

01:44:22 OK, it's me not paying attention then.

01:44:23 You can go and take your driving test again.

01:44:24 I will certainly do that.

01:44:26 Thank you very much.

01:44:27 Excuse me, I'm a layman.

01:44:29 I've sat here and listened to you all.

01:44:30 There's a microphone coming your way.

01:44:33 Mr Norman McKinnon here.

01:44:36 I'm a total layman.

01:44:38 I've listened to all the professional people.

01:44:40 I spent my entire life chasing black gold, i.e. oil, all over this world.

01:44:46 I've driven all over this world.

01:44:49 The A9 is a disgrace for a major road connecting the Highlands to the Southern Scotland.

01:44:56 And as you drive south, you see the difference.

01:44:59 I drive a very fast vehicle, but I obey the law.

01:45:05 I have a fast vehicle, so when I go to overtake, I overtake in some situations.

01:45:09 And you have to, i.e. maybe edging on the law.

01:45:12 But most drivers driving on the road, apart from HGV drivers, drive dangerously.

01:45:19 Very dangerously.

01:45:20 Thank you.

01:45:21 Thank you very much.

01:45:23 I'm wondering, we had a question submitted by Ian Donaldson from I Am Highlander.

01:45:28 I'm wondering if Ian is in the room.

01:45:30 Yes, he's here.

01:45:31 Thank you.

01:45:31 Can we give the microphone, just while we're talking about safety.

01:45:35 Yeah, thanks.

01:45:35 My name's Ian Donaldson.

01:45:37 I'm a solicitor in M&S and working three days a week in Abbeymore.

01:45:42 And I've been involved with the--

01:45:45 Can you pop your microphone so I can close it?

01:45:46 So I've been involved with the Helm of Advanced Motorists for the past 35 years.

01:45:50 So I've a keen interest in road safety.

01:45:53 There's various issues, but my question that I had proof was--

01:46:00 Partly it's been answered, because my question was,

01:46:03 how does the layman draw to the attention of the officials in Transport Scotland?

01:46:10 Issues which we, as regular day-to-day users, may think to be a good idea.

01:46:15 And this was instigated partly by the fact that the white lining in the junctions is so poor,

01:46:23 as has already been mentioned by Laura.

01:46:25 But also, coming north last autumn, after the series of fatal accidents in the Sloch Summit,

01:46:30 coming north over the Sloch, following a stream of cars,

01:46:35 and one of them went out and overtook on the bend in the Sloch.

01:46:40 And by some miracle, there was nothing coming the other way.

01:46:44 But-- So there was no accident.

01:46:46 But I was left thinking, surely, that bend in the Sloch should be double white-lined

01:46:51 to prevent overtaking around that bend.

01:46:53 And then I thought, well, who do I suggest that to?

01:46:57 As a regular day-to-day road user, how do I make my feelings known about this?

01:47:02 And I spoke to one of the traffic officers in the local police,

01:47:07 who basically said to me, I don't know.

01:47:09 I suppose maybe a councillor, maybe Traffic Scotland.

01:47:12 I don't know who you put these suggestions to.

01:47:15 And so I wondered, as Transport Scotland people here,

01:47:20 how do you take valid points from members of the public,

01:47:27 or interested people like myself, to improve road safety in the A9?

01:47:32 So we do it via-- So here are the ways, I suppose, that it would come to be.

01:47:39 I think the police was a good first step.

01:47:42 Via local representatives.

01:47:44 Be it your councillor, be it your MSP, be it your MP.

01:47:47 If they write to me on your behalf, it will come directly to me,

01:47:51 and I will consider their correspondence and reply.

01:47:54 So that's the first way that it can be done.

01:47:56 But we also mentioned the A9 Safety Group as being a stakeholder forum,

01:48:01 essentially, that's been running for years.

01:48:03 And that meets with ministers.

01:48:04 I think February was the last time that it met,

01:48:07 and it will meet again with the new transport team, Fiona Hedlock.

01:48:10 And I, obviously, Laura is a local advocate for change as well,

01:48:16 and it seems that she has got a well-established group

01:48:18 who are campaigning on the matter.

01:48:20 So there's a number of fora.

01:48:22 But if you want to speak to me, either write to me directly,

01:48:25 or if you do so via your local representative, I'll see it.

01:48:28 Does that answer your question?

01:48:31 Yes, carry on.

01:48:33 Wait for the microphone.

01:48:34 Yeah, one point I feel very strongly about in A9

01:48:38 is the lack of adequate rest and toilet facilities in A9.

01:48:42 When I was a younger solicitor, I used to go...

01:48:46 My firm used to be instructed by a few insurance companies

01:48:49 to deal with their customers who were either being prosecuted

01:48:58 for careless or dangerous driving, or in civil compensation cases.

01:49:03 And I used to be sent down to visit the police stations

01:49:07 in Aviemore and Capucine, as it were, then.

01:49:09 And time after time, the police officers who were talking to me

01:49:15 about these accidents, some of them fatal, some of them not fatal,

01:49:18 would tell me that the current theme was that people had been rushing

01:49:22 to get to toilets, or they had been tired, had fallen asleep.

01:49:29 And it just seems absolutely amazing to me that...

01:49:32 I know why it was done.

01:49:34 I know why it was done at the time that the rest facilities

01:49:38 and toilets were not put in, because they wanted to protect

01:49:41 bypassed communities when A9 was built.

01:49:43 But you've now ended up with a road that's 110 miles long

01:49:48 with no roadside facilities.

01:49:51 And it's just absolutely crazy to my mind.

01:49:53 If you took 110 miles south from Glasgow on the M74

01:49:59 and said, "We're not going to have any roadside facilities,"

01:50:01 that would just be mental.

01:50:02 That would be absolutely crazy.

01:50:03 Can I just...

01:50:04 Thank you.

01:50:05 Can I just ask, is that part of the plan at all?

01:50:08 So I think it's a really good point that you've raised.

01:50:13 It gets you into the intricacies of some of the stuff

01:50:18 we talked about earlier about by all the work that we do

01:50:21 to support the scheme coming forward,

01:50:23 where we look at things like the level of service provision

01:50:26 and engagement of communities about what's available,

01:50:29 what's not available.

01:50:30 We get quite a lot of dialogue from the Road Haulage Association,

01:50:34 as you would imagine, on the availability of facilities.

01:50:38 And you'll take the basics, food, water, toilet,

01:50:42 I think, along that route.

01:50:44 I think there's some real opportunities there for us

01:50:47 as we start to roll out the programme.

01:50:48 And that would be something that I think that we would look

01:50:51 to work with communities on as we do that,

01:50:54 because it is a real thing.

01:50:56 And making them 24-hour as well,

01:50:58 because we can stop at the loo at House of Brewer

01:51:01 and the ones at Raleigha, but they get locked as well.

01:51:03 Well, exactly.

01:51:05 And I can't make any promises about 24-hour type thing.

01:51:08 But yeah, those are the types of issues

01:51:10 that need to be worked through.

01:51:11 I was literally going to reinforce

01:51:13 what you said yourself.

01:51:14 It is the problem for the HGV drivers.

01:51:17 We do need 24-hour services,

01:51:20 because you have the knock-on effect now

01:51:21 that although they didn't back in 1979

01:51:24 want to bypass these small villages

01:51:26 and take money from them,

01:51:27 you've now got the fact that you've got articulated law

01:51:29 and it's pulling into tiny little villages,

01:51:32 trying to go in.

01:51:33 There's no parking for them.

01:51:34 They're actually stopping on the main roads

01:51:36 and within these villages to try and get to toilets

01:51:39 to run for sandwiches and all the rest of it.

01:51:40 That's a knock-on effect.

01:51:41 And you end up with very angry locals

01:51:43 that can't actually get on down the streets.

01:51:45 So it's essential that services are put in.

01:51:47 And we also speak to the Road Colleges Association

01:51:50 about this.

01:51:50 And a knock-on effect, of course,

01:51:52 is when there's an accident on the AM,

01:51:54 these guys' tackles go right over.

01:51:56 And there is no way that,

01:51:57 I mean, there's a whole problem with stacking

01:51:59 these trucks on the AM

01:52:00 when there's been an accident.

01:52:01 These guys have been left out in this road

01:52:03 for 24, 36 hours

01:52:06 till it opens with absolutely no facilities whatsoever.

01:52:10 So there's a big problem with Highland Council

01:52:11 having to stack all these HGV trucks after an accident.

01:52:15 It's unsustainable what's going on at this moment in time

01:52:17 out on that road.

01:52:19 - I'm cheered by Mary taking lots and lots of notes here.

01:52:22 Very quickly, yes, if I could just,

01:52:24 behind you, Lynn, there's,

01:52:26 very, very quickly,

01:52:26 because I would like to talk about some ideas

01:52:29 for how we have safety measures.

01:52:31 - Okay, so a quick one on your tendering.

01:52:33 I do tenders for our company,

01:52:34 for Highland Council,

01:52:36 for windows, doors, replacements,

01:52:38 that sort of thing.

01:52:38 And we got one three or four years ago,

01:52:41 it was about 175 houses,

01:52:42 you think, great happy days.

01:52:44 But Highland Council, in a meeting after,

01:52:46 they said, "What did I think?"

01:52:47 I said, "I thought it was too big

01:52:48 to put it all in one go."

01:52:49 Because, well, we go to a supplier

01:52:51 that they will say,

01:52:53 will commit for the rest of this year

01:52:55 to price us after.

01:52:56 So you automatically have to overprice.

01:52:59 And they're not trying to do anybody

01:53:00 or rip anybody off.

01:53:01 But if you know your good price is coming,

01:53:04 and I wonder with the length of

01:53:06 some of these contracts,

01:53:09 if it's a three or four year project,

01:53:12 they must, by definition,

01:53:13 add on to build in.

01:53:15 Because if I get it wrong,

01:53:16 the company goes burst,

01:53:18 all the people that work there have no work.

01:53:20 So you're trying to do your best for the client,

01:53:22 but also for all the people that work there.

01:53:24 We got one recently, it was 24 houses.

01:53:26 Complete certainty, we put in a cheaper price.

01:53:29 And we're not trying to do anybody

01:53:30 or rip anybody off.

01:53:31 But you know with certainty,

01:53:32 you know that's what that product's gonna cost

01:53:34 for that period.

01:53:35 Are some of the sections you're talking about too long,

01:53:38 and would you get better value

01:53:40 for putting out two smaller bits?

01:53:42 - So again, I suppose that's something else to consider,

01:53:45 whether it is part of that pay-as-you-go system

01:53:49 that was talked about before.

01:53:50 I'd rather we didn't get into too much of that.

01:53:53 But yes, I'm sure your point will be taken on board.

01:53:56 Thank you very much for that.

01:53:58 We've talked a bit about some safety measures,

01:54:00 and I'm sure some of our audience

01:54:02 have got any other ideas.

01:54:04 And I'm just wondering if anybody has got anything else

01:54:06 that they would like to see happen

01:54:09 along the side of the A9 or whatever.

01:54:11 Got a chap there with his hand up black t-shirt.

01:54:15 Yes, give us your name.

01:54:16 - Hi, John Murray.

01:54:17 I recently wrote to the minister on this subject

01:54:20 and felt I got fobbed off, to be honest.

01:54:22 But I feel like the kind of overgrowth in the trees

01:54:26 to improve line of sight for overtaking,

01:54:29 I think the section that is locked,

01:54:31 which has sadly had a few deaths,

01:54:34 is if you look back 20 years,

01:54:36 you could actually see around that corner

01:54:38 and make a safe overtake.

01:54:40 I think there's a number of examples on the road.

01:54:42 I live in Galsby, so that's focused in the north.

01:54:45 But between Perth and Inverness,

01:54:47 there's lots of bits that you could previously

01:54:50 overtake with safety and now you can't.

01:54:52 - So cutting back foliage, another perhaps a quick way.

01:54:55 Yeah, no, absolutely.

01:54:57 Can I just ask, did you write to me?

01:54:58 And if so, what's your name?

01:55:00 - John Murray.

01:55:01 I wrote to Transport Minister.

01:55:03 - John Murray.

01:55:05 - If it were me, I didn't see it.

01:55:07 So I just wanted to apologize.

01:55:08 - That wasn't you at the time.

01:55:08 - Okay.

01:55:09 Okay.

01:55:10 Anybody else?

01:55:11 Another few hands were up very, very quickly.

01:55:13 Yes, lady with the stripes.

01:55:14 - Hello.

01:55:15 Jinty Moffat.

01:55:18 Laura, I was really taken with your statement

01:55:21 about congruent signage and junctions not being consistent.

01:55:26 I mean, that has to be a starter.

01:55:29 - Absolutely.

01:55:30 - Many junctions, you go three, two, one.

01:55:33 Our one at King Eucie, there is no three, two, one.

01:55:37 - No.

01:55:37 - Now, surely you have three, two, one on a junction.

01:55:41 And if you have it on one junction,

01:55:42 you have it on every junction.

01:55:45 And I think there's examples of that all the way through.

01:55:49 So it's not big money and it's sticking plaster.

01:55:52 But I think that sort of thing would make a difference.

01:55:57 - And perhaps not be too much of a dent

01:55:59 in the five million pounds over three years.

01:56:02 - Well, I have no idea.

01:56:02 And also, I mean, I have a thing about you go somewhere new.

01:56:05 And I'm convinced that signs are put up

01:56:08 by people who know where they're going.

01:56:10 You really want somebody there

01:56:12 who doesn't know where they're going

01:56:14 and see whether actually, and doing the A9,

01:56:18 that would be fantastic if you were with somebody

01:56:21 who didn't know where they were going.

01:56:23 And did the signs actually make sense?

01:56:25 - Any other safety points?

01:56:27 Very quick one, final one, perhaps,

01:56:29 here from the gentleman here again.

01:56:30 - George Rennie.

01:56:31 - George Rennie.

01:56:32 - If it's going to be a long time till it's dualled,

01:56:36 then possibly at some of the junctions

01:56:38 where there are big accidents moving to roundabouts.

01:56:41 - Roundabouts is an interesting one.

01:56:44 And I ask the team about roundabouts quite a lot.

01:56:48 Because I think, as I said in my opening remarks,

01:56:49 I hate junctions.

01:56:51 I hate driving the junctions myself.

01:56:53 I know that you all will.

01:56:54 Roundabouts are not a short-term measure.

01:56:57 Roundabouts are a big infrastructure piece of work,

01:57:01 like not entirely akin to,

01:57:03 but not far away from the dualling process itself.

01:57:06 So if we're talking about significant bits

01:57:08 of infrastructure work,

01:57:09 we're talking about dualling,

01:57:10 we're talking about shorter-term measures,

01:57:12 we're talking about lining, signage, consistency.

01:57:15 Roundabouts are not a short-term measure.

01:57:18 They are a massive, massive piece of work.

01:57:19 That seems quite counterintuitive to me.

01:57:22 Because if we've got a junction anyway,

01:57:24 and people coming in either side

01:57:26 and a main road going across,

01:57:28 it seems to me that it's maybe, I don't know,

01:57:31 just a matter of changing the way it works

01:57:34 and putting the signage

01:57:35 and sticking some signs in the middle

01:57:37 and making it round.

01:57:38 (overlapping chatter)

01:57:40 - Again, I don't know what I'm talking about.

01:57:42 You keep me right, sir.

01:57:43 - I think the general speed on that road

01:57:45 would really prohibit roundabouts.

01:57:47 - And yet they have them on the A720.

01:57:48 - I think--

01:57:50 - Different road.

01:57:51 - Special, oh, a special road.

01:57:52 - Yeah, I think going forward from today,

01:57:54 what's really driving me here

01:57:56 is nothing but I'm picking up from you all is,

01:57:58 you know, the A720, the A82.

01:58:00 We really need this road to be a road

01:58:02 with special distinction taking us forward.

01:58:04 Now, the Scottish government have the opportunity here

01:58:08 to drive something forward

01:58:10 and really make it a prime example of excellence

01:58:13 rather than just shrugging it

01:58:14 and, you know, we'll get to it eventually, you know.

01:58:17 Let's really get this taken forward.

01:58:20 Now, you know, you've made special distinctions

01:58:22 on the A720 and the A82.

01:58:25 The A9 actually needs this,

01:58:26 and this is your chance

01:58:27 and your opportunity to do this.

01:58:28 - It is very clear on the A720,

01:58:31 the Edinburgh-Perthrow Road,

01:58:32 speed limits are shown clearly at 70, 60.

01:58:36 It goes down to 40, I think, at one point.

01:58:38 It's a very long road.

01:58:39 It's a very difficult road to drive.

01:58:40 Parts of it are extremely busy.

01:58:43 And you see what the speed limit is at each point.

01:58:48 And that is possible

01:58:49 because it's got a special legal designation

01:58:52 that allows that to happen.

01:58:54 So I guess the question is,

01:58:56 and it's been raised with Transport Scotland before,

01:58:58 this is not the first time it's raised,

01:59:00 is why isn't that the case on the A9

01:59:03 when we've got so many tourists

01:59:06 that haven't got the slightest idea

01:59:08 of what the speed limit is,

01:59:09 except the only number they see is 50 miles an hour,

01:59:12 because that's the only figure shown

01:59:15 for HGV, the trial limit.

01:59:17 So why haven't we got special designation for the A9

01:59:21 as there is for the Edinburgh-Perthrow Road?

01:59:23 Why are the Highlands not getting the status

01:59:26 that the Edinburgh Road and A82 are getting?

01:59:28 - It's not about status,

01:59:30 but I don't know if you want to--

01:59:31 - Well, it is.

01:59:32 It's about special designated status.

01:59:34 - I'm very conscious of that,

01:59:35 so that's at four o'clock.

01:59:36 So if we're able to answer that very, very briefly

01:59:39 and then make closing remarks.

01:59:40 - So I was just going to say,

01:59:42 let me take that away,

01:59:43 and I'm gonna give you a lengthy explanation

01:59:48 of how we deal with people in the six weeks.

01:59:49 Now let me take that wheel out

01:59:50 and I'll come back to you on that.

01:59:52 - Thank you very much.

01:59:53 There was so much more that we could have talked about.

01:59:57 I wanted to talk about the options

01:59:58 for a Highland Rail card.

02:00:00 I don't know if that's a possibility

02:00:01 to get people off the road and onto trains.

02:00:05 We need more regular trains.

02:00:06 We need things that run and they're reliable.

02:00:09 We could talk about our rail air links as well.

02:00:12 But what I would invite you each now to do

02:00:15 is either give me a commitment

02:00:18 as to what it is you're absolutely,

02:00:21 categorically going to do,

02:00:23 or what it is that you would absolutely like most to see

02:00:29 from the A9 going forward.

02:00:31 Laura, while I start with you,

02:00:32 you're closest to me.

02:00:33 - Yep, I want, in the interim period,

02:00:36 these extrajudicial safety measures,

02:00:38 but I want the A9 class as a road of special designation now,

02:00:42 and I want the road jailed,

02:00:43 but I want a timetable for these communities released

02:00:46 immediately, and I want it stuck to.

02:00:48 I want those cars driving guaranteed,

02:00:50 so I actually do guarantee.

02:00:52 (audience applauding)

02:00:53 - Fergus.

02:00:54 - Yes, I want a ministerial statement

02:00:56 as soon as possible

02:00:57 after we go back at the beginning of September.

02:01:00 We should say three things.

02:01:01 This is the new date by which the program will be completed.

02:01:04 Secondly, this is when each of the sections

02:01:08 will be completed, and the timescale for that as well.

02:01:11 And thirdly, the top priority will be attached,

02:01:13 the available capital budget,

02:01:15 and there is capital budget available,

02:01:17 over as many years as is required to complete the job,

02:01:20 and it won't be diverted to the central belt,

02:01:22 and the Greens won't have any ability

02:01:24 to veto that decision.

02:01:26 (audience applauding)

02:01:30 - Colin.

02:01:30 - Exactly what Fergus said,

02:01:32 when that announcement's made,

02:01:33 I want that announcement to be section by section,

02:01:36 design dates, procurement dates, start dates,

02:01:38 completion dates for each section.

02:01:40 We need to know exactly what's going to happen

02:01:43 so that we can tell if the program's slipping or not.

02:01:45 - And there was something that we didn't quite get to

02:01:48 with you that you were hoping

02:01:49 that there might be a working group

02:01:51 and a commitment to setting up with that

02:01:53 and having that regular accountability.

02:01:55 - Yeah, once you've done that,

02:01:56 we know there's a line safety group,

02:01:57 but there's no local group to hold the government accountable

02:02:01 for that promise.

02:02:02 I'd like to see you guys up here every two to three months.

02:02:05 Sorry, yeah, but they're only talking about safety.

02:02:07 They're not talking about the development of the roads.

02:02:10 I'd love a commitment from Transport Scotland

02:02:12 to be up here every quarter, telling us on that progress.

02:02:15 (audience applauding)

02:02:18 I'm very happy to chair that meeting for you.

02:02:20 (audience laughing)

02:02:22 - There you go, there's an offer.

02:02:25 Rob.

02:02:25 - Well, as part of a team that's working very hard

02:02:29 trying to provide advice to the cabinet secretary,

02:02:32 very much hope we can get that completed

02:02:34 in a short time period as possible,

02:02:36 get that advice provided,

02:02:38 and very much hope that we can provide

02:02:39 the level of information that's been asked for.

02:02:41 - I think we all hope so too.

02:02:44 Thank you very much.

02:02:44 I would just reiterate the commitment,

02:02:47 seeing as I'm the one that needs to deliver here,

02:02:49 that I made in my opening remarks,

02:02:51 which is the urgent work on our contract terms

02:02:54 to make sure that it is more favourable,

02:02:56 so that future procurements happen successfully

02:02:59 and happen as soon as possible.

02:03:00 And I have to Timoy section in mind when I talk about that.

02:03:04 And then the second part of my commitment

02:03:05 is to update as soon as I possibly can

02:03:09 on the programme for the rest of the programme

02:03:12 and to complete it,

02:03:12 because that political commitment absolutely starts.

02:03:15 So thank you very much.

02:03:16 - Thank you.

02:03:16 And would you be up to be part of a working group

02:03:18 if Colin could get something set up?

02:03:20 - Well, I think, yeah, I know I was thinking

02:03:22 it pertains to the point we were discussing earlier

02:03:25 with George, sorry, I think your name is,

02:03:26 about transparency.

02:03:28 And I agree that transparency

02:03:29 and understanding progress is important.

02:03:30 So I'll consider it.

02:03:32 - Thank you very much.

02:03:33 Alison.

02:03:33 - It doesn't feel right.

02:03:34 I've got the final one.

02:03:36 - Okay.

02:03:36 So thank you for all the contributions today.

02:03:40 I've taken quite a lot out of it.

02:03:41 I'm the chief executive of the organisation

02:03:44 that's responsible for delivering both the programme

02:03:46 and the road safety.

02:03:48 So I will take all of that away

02:03:49 and give a commitment to come back

02:03:51 and speak to Laura.

02:03:52 Colin, Laura, I'm happy to speak to you

02:03:54 for the rest of our meeting.

02:03:56 So thank you.

02:03:57 - Oh, excellent.

02:03:58 Thank you.

02:03:59 Thank you very much, Alison.

02:04:00 Thank you all of us on the panel

02:04:02 for joining us today

02:04:03 and for your care and consideration

02:04:06 and for coming to the Highlands.

02:04:08 That is very, very much appreciated.

02:04:11 I hope if nothing else,

02:04:11 that you're taking away a real understanding

02:04:14 of the depth of feeling that there is in the room

02:04:16 and how important the dualling of the A9

02:04:20 is for us, not just for business,

02:04:22 but I think primarily

02:04:24 in order to continue to save lives.

02:04:26 We will be going through everything

02:04:29 that has been said today.

02:04:30 It will all be collated.

02:04:32 There will be action points

02:04:33 and I'm sure the teams here will be in touch.

02:04:36 There will be coverage of today's discussion

02:04:39 in the Inverness Courier.

02:04:42 Make sure you keep an eye on the website

02:04:44 and there is a dedicated section on the website

02:04:46 for the dual the A9 campaign coverage

02:04:48 on all the social channels as well.

02:04:50 Ladies and gentlemen,

02:04:52 thank you for all of your questions

02:04:55 and for your close attention,

02:04:57 for your comments, for your ideas,

02:04:59 for your interjections.

02:05:01 It's really very much appreciated.

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