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00:00 Let's get some more reaction to this then from John Linden. He's the Executive Director of the
00:06 Alliance for Middle East Peace, which is a network of over 150 Israeli and Palestinian organisations
00:12 engaged in grassroots peace building. Welcome to the programme, sir. Thanks for joining us.
00:17 Good to be with you.
00:19 You heard our correspondent there saying this is just the latest sign and there may
00:23 well be more escalation to come. Would you agree with that analysis?
00:27 I mean, yes, sadly, the last year, over a year really, has seen this dynamic of gradual
00:33 escalation and increase in violence, increase in bloodshed and loss of life. And we're seeing the
00:37 kind of return of symbols of the Second Intifada, as Iris mentioned, helicopter gunships in the
00:42 skies over the West Bank for the first time since the Second Intifada, roadside bombs,
00:47 daytime raids into cities, which really haven't been so much of a feature in recent years,
00:53 are now a very regular occurrence. And we've had several of them this year,
00:56 mostly, again, focused in Jenin and Nablus in the north of the West Bank,
01:00 where, again, as Iris said, the rift of the control of the Palestinian Authority has sort of been
01:05 sliding, ceding ground to these militias who are in control of some of the big refugee camps in
01:10 those cities and driving events. And then obviously, as well, we have a government in Israel,
01:16 which is certainly has elements within it that seem to be fanning the flames. So, yeah,
01:21 the trajectory seems to be very bad, with no sign that it's going to improve in the short term.
01:25 And you mentioned the Second Intifada, which took place in the early 2000s.
01:29 Given the fact that this violence in the West Bank has been rumbling for over a year now,
01:36 are we looking at a third Intifada, do you think?
01:38 It's difficult, right? There's no kind of objective criteria for you saying now we're
01:44 in an Intifada. We can look at the numbers. I mean, last year was the most bloody year
01:49 since the Second Intifada. And this year is on track to supersede it quite significantly. We've
01:55 122, I think, Palestinians have lost their life this year in the West Bank alone, and around 20
02:00 Israelis in either the West Bank or in Israel proper. So that is getting towards the sort of
02:06 numbers, the grisly numbers that we saw during the Intifada. I mean, the thing with the previous
02:10 two Intifadas we've had is that each one is very different to the other. And I think people who
02:15 are expecting some sort of rerun of the Second Intifada, I mean, first of all, God forbid,
02:20 but also the criteria and the political variables at the moment are very, very different. So the
02:25 Palestinian Authority had much more control over events in the early 2000s. Whereas now it seems
02:32 to really be sliding in influence. And it's a much more sort of broad coalition of organizations,
02:38 movements, militias, many of which have only sprung up in the last 12, 18 months,
02:41 most of which are being run and powered by very, very young men. So the dynamic is really dangerous.
02:48 And I think also when you think about the previous Intifada, the second one, there was a role for the
02:53 international community to be able to engage directly with the PA and some entities also
02:58 engaging directly with Hamas to deescalate. And it's not clear that those same tools will be usable
03:03 right now, considering the more kind of informal nature of some of the actors who are deploying
03:08 violence. And just briefly, finally, your network, as I mentioned, works with peace building
03:13 organizations on both the Israeli and the Palestinian side. I wonder sort of how far
03:18 away peace feels to them right now and how they think meaningful de-escalation happens.
03:23 You know, it's interesting. I was in Jerusalem two weeks ago. We had this huge peace builders
03:29 conference with 600 Israelis and Palestinians all gathered talking about very practical ways
03:33 they can work together for peace and equality. You know, and you walk around that event and you see
03:37 this sense of what things could be like. And then looking at our screens today, you see the reality
03:41 that's pretty sort of firmly embedded. And I think there is no shortage of Israelis and Palestinians
03:48 who want to counter these events. What they need is more amplification, more support and more
03:52 international diplomatic support as well. Whilst the work of peace building organizations on the
03:56 ground is critical and it's drawing young people towards these sort of activities rather than
04:01 towards violence or despair. But they do also need support from an international community that
04:06 needs to amplify that and restore a diplomatic horizon. Ultimately, there has been a deprioritization
04:11 of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict globally in recent years. And if we want to try and see this
04:16 sort of third intifada you were hinting could become disrupted, the international community
04:21 needs to restore that diplomatic horizon and show a path non-violently, diplomatically, that Israelis
04:26 and Palestinians can get behind and believe in. John Linden from the Alliance of Middle East Peace.
04:31 Thank you very much indeed, sir. Thank you.