- 12/19/2022
Dr. Zakir Naik Debates with an American Atheist
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00:00Hello, Dr. Zakhar Naik. My name is Harris. I'm from Phoenix, Arizona in the United States.
00:06I'm an entrepreneur and a marketing manager.
00:10Two of my friends in America have converted watching YouTube videos of you.
00:15One of them a Christian, one of them an atheist.
00:19One of my friends presented me with how to deal with an atheist DVD of yours, which I did watch.
00:28But that didn't answer my question.
00:30And I've asked this question to a lot of people with no satisfactory answers, a lot of intelligent people.
00:36Of all the scholars that I've ever watched on YouTube, in my opinion, you are the most rational, logical, easy-to-understand kind of scholar that I've ever come across in my life.
00:50And it is really important that this question is answered because I've never had a satisfactory answer for this question.
00:56And my question is like a coin with two sides.
00:59The first side of it is this, and this is the question.
01:02I'm somewhere between an atheist and agnostic.
01:04I'm not sure where.
01:06God has created this entire universe.
01:08And the Quran speaks a lot about how it has taken so many days and mountains and this and that, and life is going to be a test and whatnot.
01:18My question is, way before God decided to create this entire universe, before he decided to put human beings,
01:27before he decided to send Prophet Muhammad or Adam and Eve,
01:31way before he even planned about doing any of this,
01:35he knew the end result of it.
01:37He knows, in the end, he will be disappointed by certain people and he will throw them in hellfire.
01:44He knows they will be burning.
01:46He knows they will be tortured and that is when they will be repenting for what they've done.
01:51Way before he created the entire universe, he knows the outcome is going to be bad.
01:57It may be good for certain people who are in heaven,
01:59but he knows that he can save those people from being in hell.
02:03Way before he even decided to go ahead with the creation.
02:06Yet, he decides to go ahead with it, with all his godly logic.
02:12Why would he want to do that?
02:14The question, if I can just put it in this manner,
02:16how can God be so sadistic that he would actually go ahead with a plan,
02:20which he knows is going to end up in that manner?
02:22That's the first side of the coin.
02:23The second side of the coin is,
02:24for some reason, if I believe that, okay, God is almighty and he understands everything is great, God is great.
02:31Why is God insisting in the Quran that, look at the mountains, look at the protons, the electrons, this and that,
02:39everything is so synchronized, how amazing I am.
02:41Why is he forcing us to find his creation amazing when it is a piece of cake for God?
02:46I mean, he just had to say, Kun, and it was done.
02:49Then why is it a big deal if God has made this entire universe which is so amazing?
02:53Because for God, it's nothing.
02:55So, I should not be really amazed at his creation.
02:57He can do much more than this.
02:59So, I do not understand why he wants us to respect what he has done or find it amazing what he has done.
03:04The brother has asked a very good question and a very intellectual question.
03:09It's a very good question.
03:11And he has seen some of my tapes on YouTube, even of atheism.
03:16And this question that is troubling him, he hasn't got the answer to.
03:20The brother has asked the question that almighty God knows everything.
03:25Before he created the heaven, then the earth.
03:27Before he created a human being, even if one person goes to hell, he could have avoided that.
03:33I mean, he could avoid being disappointed.
03:35Of course.
03:37I'll reply.
03:38The brother said, even if one person goes to hell, it is as though God would be disappointed.
03:44Now, coming to your question, I started a school.
03:48I started a school.
03:50And you may have heard Islam International School.
03:54If a teacher takes an examination, if she's just,
03:58while she is giving the examination, she writes in the math paper, two plus two is equal to how much?
04:06The student in front of her or him, the teacher, writes five.
04:12She can very well tell the student, change five to four.
04:16Would it be just on the teacher during the test and examination to correct a student who's writing a wrong answer?
04:26Right.
04:26But if she has an option that the student doesn't need to do any of that and still just go and get the student...
04:29No, no, no.
04:29I'm asking a simple question.
04:31I'm asking a simple question.
04:33The teacher has given the question paper.
04:35Right.
04:35All the students were informed about it.
04:36For that particular situation, the teacher can tell.
04:42Dear student, change five to four.
04:45What will the other students think about?
04:47Unjust.
04:48But God can be just at the same time.
04:50He can create a completely different condition.
04:52He doesn't have to go ahead with that situation.
04:54He's not bound by any situation.
04:56Brother is saying, Almighty God can create something which is perfect and will not make mistake.
05:00Correct?
05:00That God has already done.
05:02He created the angels.
05:04God created the angels.
05:06The angels never go against any commandment of God.
05:09But human being is a better creation than angel.
05:12The angels have got no free will of their own.
05:15If you have heard my tapes, if you have not heard, I'll tell you now.
05:17The angels are a creation of Almighty God, but not the best creation.
05:21Almighty God created the human beings.
05:24The human beings have a free will to go against God or to follow God.
05:28If you have chosen to be a human being, if you disobey His commandments, you go to hell.
05:32If you obey His commandments, you're superior than the angel.
05:36Because the angel doesn't have a free will of his own.
05:40Then he follows God.
05:41It's nothing great.
05:42The human beings are the better creation of Almighty God.
05:46Almighty God has given a free will.
05:49That's a different question that Almighty God knows.
05:52Because He has ilm-e-gayb.
05:54He has knowledge of the future.
05:55He is more superior.
05:57So He has created such a creation which has a free will.
06:01The fault is of human being, not God.
06:03No, but God has created us with that fault.
06:06And He knows He can avoid that.
06:08Not fault.
06:08It's not fault, brother.
06:09It is free will.
06:10Why has He given us a free will that He knows He's going to eventually put these many people in hell?
06:15Why is He doing something?
06:16That is a different creation.
06:18Would you want to create something which can think on its own?
06:21Why would someone so compassionate be?
06:23Brothers, that's what I'm going to tell you.
06:25What you want, God has already created an angel.
06:28I'm asking you, which is better?
06:30An angel following Almighty God or a human being following Almighty God?
06:33Which is better?
06:34For me, absolutely.
06:35If I get a second chance, I would want to be an angel.
06:37Why would I risk going to hell?
06:38Second chance.
06:39Correct.
06:39That's why Almighty God says in Surah Araf, chapter number 7, verse number 172,
06:45Almighty God brought all the human beings from the loin of Adam and asked them,
06:50Is there one God?
06:51All agreed.
06:52Almighty God says in Surah Hasar, chapter 59, verse number 21,
06:56If Almighty God revealed the Quran on the mountain, the mountain would shudder down.
07:02Almighty God says in Surah Azaf, chapter 33, verse number 72,
07:05It is the human beings who were fools, who said we want to be human beings.
07:09You and I.
07:11You and I were fools.
07:12Now you cannot backtrack.
07:14Once you said you want to appear for the test, once you read the test paper,
07:17Nobody asked me.
07:19They asked Adam and Eve.
07:21No, brother.
07:22Quran says every human being was asked.
07:24And then it is washed off.
07:26This memory is washed off.
07:27If the memory is away from the test, Almighty God says in the Quran,
07:31Do you want to be a human being?
07:32If you become a human being, you can become superior to an angel or can get inferior.
07:39If you don't want to become a human being, just pass.
07:42Even for argument's sake, even in that condition.
07:44Please let me complete.
07:45You ask the question.
07:47All right, go ahead.
07:47If you interject, I will answer.
07:48Sure, go ahead.
07:49So Almighty God asked the human beings and the Quran says,
07:53We human beings were fools.
07:55You and I both were fools who opted for the test.
08:00Now, once you undergo a test, if you follow the commandment after free will,
08:05You will be superior to an angel.
08:07If you disobey Allah, you become inferior to an angel.
08:11We wanted to pass with distinction.
08:13You and I.
08:14You and I.
08:15You told, I don't remember.
08:17Of course you will not remember.
08:19And even I don't remember.
08:20But I believe in the Quran.
08:22On the Day of Judgment, Almighty God says,
08:24Not a single human being will object to the justice of Allah.
08:27That will come to know on the Day of Judgment.
08:31Only thing we will say, please give us one more chance.
08:34Almighty God will say, it's too late.
08:36Because if he wants to give you a new chance,
08:38Then I will have to come back in the world again.
08:41Again, everyone.
08:42So those who failed, he can't get only the failures.
08:45So the Quran says, no one will ever object on the justice of Allah.
08:50They will request Allah give us one more chance.
08:53Almighty God will say, too late.
08:54Almighty God gives us chances in this world itself.
08:57You make a mistake, Allah gives you a chance to repent.
09:00You repent.
09:01Allah forgives you.
09:02Again you make a mistake.
09:04Once you die, it's only one.
09:06So as far as the first question is concerned,
09:08Why did God create?
09:10Because it's a better creation.
09:12Any logical person, including you,
09:14Has to agree that a person who has a free will
09:16Is a better creation than a person who has no free will.
09:19Only your question you don't remember is perfectly right.
09:22When you die, when you are resurrected,
09:24That time you and I will meet.
09:26Then you will say, I remember.
09:28Even I don't remember now.
09:30But I have faith in the Quran,
09:31That Quran cannot be wrong.
09:33Because scientifically, if you heard my lecture,
09:3680% of the Quran is 100% matching with science.
09:4120% is ambiguous.
09:42Neither right, neither wrong.
09:43So my logic says, when 80% is 100% correct,
09:47And not even 0.1% of the 20% is wrong.
09:50So my logic says, even this 20% would be right.
09:53I am a scientific person.
09:55I am a logical person.
09:56So I believe in the statement of the Quran,
09:58That we chose.
10:00If we wouldn't have chosen,
10:01You could have questioned God.
10:02Why did you make me a human being?
10:04Then God would have been at fault.
10:06But God says in the Quran,
10:08He asked,
10:10The mountains were afraid.
10:12Everything else was afraid.
10:13We human beings opted for this.
10:17But do you remember being asked?
10:18I don't remember being asked.
10:19Brother, if you heard my answer,
10:22Even I don't remember.
10:24But if you remember,
10:25Where is the test?
10:27Imagine if a teacher teaches you something.
10:30Teacher teaches you something.
10:32Teacher gives you the book.
10:33The teacher has to take away the book for the test.
10:35If the teacher says,
10:37Okay, take the book and answer.
10:38Where is the test?
10:40Okay.
10:41But why?
10:42After the examination is over,
10:44You can go home and check or not.
10:45But even before the exam began,
10:47God knows.
10:48Brother, brother, brother, listen to me.
10:50After the examination is over,
10:51Can you go and check home or not in the textbook?
10:53Absolutely.
10:54But during the examination,
10:55Can you check?
10:56No.
10:57So now the examination is going on, brother.
10:59Once it's over, you can check.
11:02If you tell teacher,
11:03Teacher,
11:04I want to see the textbook.
11:05I don't remember.
11:06No.
11:07During the examination,
11:08You cannot refer to the textbook.
11:10It will be called cheating.
11:12Correct?
11:13So once the examination is over,
11:15If you don't remember,
11:17You tell God,
11:18What is this illogical?
11:19But Quran says not a single human being will object to the justice.
11:24Let the test get over.
11:26So today,
11:27I being a scientific person,
11:29I being a logical person,
11:31Based on my knowledge of science,
11:33Based on my logic,
11:34When I read the other scriptures,
11:36And when I read the Quran,
11:37I find Quran is the only book,
11:40Only religious scripture on the face of the earth,
11:42Which passes this test.
11:44So therefore,
11:45I,
11:45Being a scientific person,
11:47Being a logical person,
11:48Agree,
11:49Okay, fine.
11:49This statement of the Quran also has to be right.
11:52I don't remember.
11:53That is the test.
11:54If I remember,
11:54Where is the test?
11:56So that answers the first part of the question.
11:59First part,
12:00That saying,
12:01That God was sadist.
12:04God is not sadist.
12:06For example,
12:06I start a medical college.
12:09I want the school students to go to medical.
12:11How many students who go to school,
12:13Enter the medical college?
12:15Just roughly,
12:16Can you guess?
12:17Few.
12:18Surely less than 5%.
12:19Less than maybe 1%.
12:22So,
12:23Why did you make a college where only one person can enter?
12:26Fine.
12:27It is for selected few.
12:29So,
12:29Same way,
12:30God made heaven.
12:31Jannah,
12:32Jannah de Firdaus.
12:33Everyone cannot go to Jannah de Firdaus.
12:36Why not?
12:37Sorry?
12:38Why not?
12:39Why can't everyone go to medical college?
12:42Because it's human capacity.
12:43If humans were capable of being able to put everyone to medical college,
12:46They would.
12:47That's the way we are made.
12:49So,
12:49Same way,
12:49Everyone cannot become a doctor.
12:52Only those who have the capacity.
12:54Same way,
12:55Everyone cannot go to Jannah de Firdaus.
12:57The high levels of paradise.
12:58We have to strive.
12:59God has given you capacity.
13:01If you don't follow His guidance,
13:02You cannot.
13:03If you follow His guidance,
13:04To go to Jannah is very easy.
13:07If you are intelligent,
13:09It's very easy.
13:10If you are intelligent.
13:12And if,
13:13You are truthful to yourself.
13:15But if you are not truthful to yourself,
13:17Even a non-intelligent man can go to Jannah.
13:20Only thing,
13:20You should be truthful.
13:22God has given you different options.
13:25How to follow Him.
13:25Some people think they are smart.
13:28I tell them they are extra smart.
13:32If they were smart,
13:33They would see it as crystal clear.
13:36In black and white.
13:37That this is the word of God.
13:38You have to follow it.
13:39That's the reason Francis Bacon said,
13:43Little knowledge of science makes you an atheist.
13:46In-depth knowledge of science makes you a believer in God.
13:49So,
13:51I wouldn't say God is sadist.
13:53I said,
13:54We were fools.
13:55Who opted to undergo the test.
13:58Not God.
13:59God gave you an option.
14:02What do you want to be?
14:03We chose.
14:04So,
14:04We are responsible.
14:05Not God.
14:06God is not a sadist.
14:07We are fools.
14:09That's what the Quran says.
14:10On the day of judgment,
14:11You will come to know.
14:12In-sha-Allah.
14:13You and I both.
14:14In-sha-Allah.
14:15If I go to Jannah.
14:17In-sha-Allah.
14:17In-sha-Allah.
14:18I will pray to God.
14:19I will thank God.
14:20You know,
14:20I was a good person.
14:21I choose to be a human being.
14:22If you pass that.
14:23If you fail,
14:24Then we will crush our own self.
14:26Hope that answers the question.
14:27The second part.
14:28Sorry,
14:29What was the second part?
14:30That even if I believe how almighty He is.
14:32How knowledgeable He is.
14:33Why is He so bent on convincing us.
14:36Look at the mountains.
14:37Look at the electrons.
14:38Look at the protons.
14:38The second part of the question was.
14:41That why does almighty God give references of the mountain.
14:45That is created this.
14:47For him it is peanuts.
14:48So why is He talking?
14:50You know why is He saying?
14:51He is saying these peanut things.
14:53Mountain.
14:54They would shudder.
14:55You human being who are superior.
14:57Why don't you understand?
14:58Quran says in Surah Hashar chapter 59 verse 21.
15:01Had the Quran been revealed on the mountain.
15:04The mountain would have fallen down.
15:07To utter ruin.
15:08But to us human beings it makes no difference.
15:10He is giving these examples to show.
15:12That these things which are so powerful.
15:15The mountains etc.
15:16Which He has created.
15:17Would have submitted the will.
15:20Why don't you human being do?
15:22He is trying to give an example.
15:24That we are fools.
15:26He is not trying to praise Himself.
15:27And whenever He asks us to praise Him.
15:31Or when He says.
15:31We say Allah Akbar.
15:34God is the greatest.
15:36Do you think.
15:37It will change Allah?
15:39No.
15:40Whether you say a thousand times.
15:41Allah Akbar.
15:42Or a million times.
15:44He cannot become greater.
15:45He is already the greatest.
15:46The reason we say these things is because.
15:49It is our human mentality.
15:52Our human nature.
15:53That we follow the people who are famous.
15:56We follow the people who we praise.
15:57For example.
15:59Your mother has a heart attack.
16:01There is unknown person on the street.
16:04Who gives you the treatment.
16:05And you heard that the best heart specialist.
16:10In the world is Dr. X.
16:12Now will you follow Dr. X's advice.
16:15Or the person on the street who you don't know.
16:17Dr. X.
16:18Why?
16:18Because Dr. X is famous.
16:20People know him.
16:21He is the best in the world.
16:22So the reason in our salah.
16:24In our life.
16:25We say Allah Akbar.
16:26Allah is the greatest.
16:27Allah is the most wise.
16:29Allah is the most intelligent.
16:30Why?
16:31If we say that it doesn't benefit Allah.
16:34It benefits us.
16:36That if we praise him.
16:37We follow him.
16:38If we follow.
16:39We go to Jannah.
16:39To Allah it makes no difference.
16:43Therefore Allah says.
16:44Will you not then believe?
16:46Will you not then understand?
16:48That means the Quran is revealed to the people.
16:50For understanding.
16:52So he is giving this example.
16:53Not to make himself great.
16:56He is always the greatest.
16:58Whether you say a million times.
16:59Allah is the greatest.
17:00It will not make a difference to Allah.
17:02He is telling it to you.
17:04Allah says in the Quran.
17:05Allah does not require you.
17:07You require him.
17:09So when we praise him.
17:10It is human psychology.
17:12That the person you praise.
17:13Person you talk great about.
17:16You tend to follow his advice.
17:17By following his advice.
17:19It will benefit you.
17:20It will not benefit him.
17:21He is already the greatest.
17:22He is already the merciful.
17:24So these are rules and regulations laid down.
17:26He is our creator.
17:28He knows our mindset.
17:28He said you are a student of science.
17:30Correct?
17:31I am also a student of science.
17:32The moment I come to know.
17:34Allah mentioned these scientific facts.
17:37Which we came to know today.
17:3850 years back.
17:39It increases my faith in Allah.
17:43Allah says in Surah Fusilah chapter 41 verse 53.
17:46Soon we shall show them our signs.
17:54In the furthest regions of the horizons.
17:56And into their soul.
17:57Until it is clear to them that this is the truth.
17:59So Allah is giving these examples.
18:02So that it benefits us.
18:03For him.
18:04It makes no difference.
18:07It is benefiting us.
18:08So he is giving us a chance.
18:11To follow him.
18:12So that we can go to heaven.
18:14Hope that answers the question brother.
18:15I recognize his power.
18:17And I understand he is amazing.
18:18And all that that he has done.
18:19But am I expected to be amazed at his achievements.
18:23At creating this universe.
18:24Because for me.
18:25For him it is like a one second job.
18:27Correct.
18:27Right.
18:27So for him which is one second job.
18:30When he tells you not to have alcohol.
18:32I wouldn't have alcohol.
18:33Sure.
18:33But am I expected to be amazed at his creation.
18:36No see the thing is that he is not there to prove himself better.
18:40If you believe that for him it is peanuts.
18:43So will a person lie?
18:44No.
18:45So if he says don't have alcohol.
18:47You will not question him.
18:48No.
18:48Don't have pork.
18:49You will not question him.
18:50But I am not amazed at his creation.
18:52Because for him it is nothing.
18:53Compared to us it is amazing.
18:55For him it is nothing.
18:56Right.
18:57But compared to us.
18:58A person who can create the universe.
19:01When he tells me not to have alcohol.
19:04I immediately follow.
19:06Sure.
19:06I don't mind following him.
19:07But do I have to be amazed at his creation.
19:09As is said in the Quran.
19:11See.
19:11As you ask me the question.
19:12Should I be amazed at the creation.
19:14Right.
19:15I would say.
19:16If I believe human being is a better creation.
19:20Then yes I am amazed.
19:22And then I say.
19:22Alhamdulillah.
19:23He has made me better than that.
19:26So if I am amazed.
19:27He made the mountains.
19:28He made the stars.
19:29He made the sun.
19:30Ah.
19:30But he made Zakir Naik also.
19:33He made a human being.
19:35And we are the best of creation.
19:37So he gives these examples.
19:39So that we realize.
19:40What benefit he has given to us.
19:43All the favors he has given to us.
19:45Talking about the sands.
19:46Talking about the protons.
19:47Talking about the mountains.
19:49Finally he says.
19:50Human beings are the best creation.
19:52So in comparison.
19:54We have to agree.
19:56That our creator has created this human body.
19:59The molecules.
20:00The DNA.
20:01The complex thing.
20:02Which can never come by chance.
20:04So in this way.
20:06We are amazed.
20:07At the creation of the human being.
20:09And then.
20:10We submit to him.
20:12If you are not amazed.
20:14Only by being amazed.
20:16We submit.
20:17That he is our creator.
20:19He is worth worshipping.
20:20No one else can do that.
20:22This is.
20:23So that.
20:24We worship him.
20:26And we pass the test.
20:27And we go to paradise.
20:29Hope that answers the question.
20:30If Bill Gates gives me.
20:32A hundred dollars.
20:32Should I be amazed.
20:33That he has given me that money.
20:34I believe that the question.
20:35Has been answered.
20:36And unfortunately.
20:37We are very constricted for time.
20:39You are welcome to come back tomorrow.
20:40Inshallah.
20:41As with all of the brothers and sisters.
20:43We have come to the end of tonight's session.
20:45So please.
20:46I just give this last.
20:47He said.
20:48If Bill Gates gives you.
20:50A hundred dollars.
20:51Will I be amazed?
20:52Will you get amazed?
20:54Brother.
20:55The question is.
20:56Why should Bill Gates give you a hundred dollars?
21:04If you tell me.
21:06A Tom, Dick and Harry gives you a hundred dollars.
21:08Nothing to be amazed.
21:09Bill Gates.
21:11Gave me a hundred dollars.
21:13It's.
21:14Something that he gave you.
21:16Why did he give you?
21:16Why not somebody else?
21:18Why?
21:19The question is.
21:20Why did he give you?
21:21Is the question.
21:22Okay.
21:23If some Tom, Dick and Harry gives you.
21:25If a man on the street gave you a hundred dollars.
21:28Bill Gates.
21:30Got it.
21:31You got it na?
21:32Got it.
21:33I got that.
21:33So now you are convinced huh?
21:35Yes.
21:35Absolutely.
21:36That is the answer.
21:36So inshallah I hope.
21:39That we will come closer to Islam.
21:40So I should not be amazed at the fact that he is giving me the money.
21:43I should be amazed it's him who is giving the money.
21:45Alhamdulillah.
21:47So it was worth the time extending.
21:50Alhamdulillah.