- 3 months ago
Paradise Lost/Child Murder at Robbin Hood Hills part2
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00:00:00Are you telling this jury that this knife is the murder weapon?
00:00:08Is that what you're telling this jury?
00:00:09No, sir, I'm not telling the jury that.
00:00:11Okay, now that we've got to understand that, what day were these individuals charged?
00:00:16What day did you all charge Damien Echols for this crime?
00:00:20Was it June the 3rd?
00:00:21Yes, sir.
00:00:22And what day was it that you were out there searching this lake?
00:00:26This was on 11-17-93.
00:00:29November 17-1993.
00:00:32Yes, sir.
00:00:32That's all.
00:00:36The damn system stinks.
00:00:45They're playing with our lives and there's nothing right about it.
00:00:49It's kind of like the Nazis, you know, they can just take somebody's word and come in your house and take you away.
00:00:55And basically that's what they did because of what Jesse told them, even though it had all those inconsistencies in it.
00:01:04If we'd had money, you'd think these three boys would have been picked up.
00:01:07They found people that they knew that they didn't have money.
00:01:11Some boys had been in a little bit of trouble.
00:01:13They thought we didn't care.
00:01:15But they were wrong.
00:01:17They were bad wrong.
00:01:18I don't believe that children could be that cold-blooded.
00:01:24That's what happened to those boys.
00:01:27State's exhibit 67A shows the hog-tying fashion.
00:01:34The hands were hog-tied to the feet behind the back.
00:01:39And this is a photograph showing that, the shoelaces.
00:01:45And that injury, you see, it's typical of a belt injury.
00:01:51You know, the belt has a little buckle.
00:01:52And that's what the buckle, that's that little one that goes back and forth to left and right.
00:01:56That's the base of the latch.
00:01:59Here, this red area here, this is the shaft of the penis.
00:02:05And here is where the scrotal sac and testes should be, and they're missing.
00:02:09So what we have is that the skin overlying the penis and the head of the penis has been carved off.
00:02:14It's gone.
00:02:15It's not there.
00:02:15In layman's language that I understand, with respect, his penis has not been cut off, has it?
00:02:26No, the skin has been taken off the penis.
00:02:29And basically it would take some skill and precision to do that, wouldn't it?
00:02:36I would think so.
00:02:37Okay.
00:02:37If this was to be done, this dissection, where the skin is cut off, that would take a very sharp instrument, would it not?
00:02:48I think it would.
00:02:50Such as a razor.
00:02:52Or a sharp knife.
00:02:53Or a very sharp knife.
00:02:54Doctor, if you were to do this, with the skill and the precision and the knowledge that you take, how long would it take you to do that?
00:03:02It would take me some time.
00:03:03It would take you longer than five to ten minutes?
00:03:06I would think so.
00:03:06And that's in your lab?
00:03:10I would think so.
00:03:11With a scapel.
00:03:13Is that correct?
00:03:14That's correct.
00:03:15Now, doctor, if we added to the equation that you were in the dark, could you do this in the dark?
00:03:23You, doctor, could you do it in the dark?
00:03:25It would be difficult.
00:03:27Could you do this in the water?
00:03:30You, doctor, could you do this in the water?
00:03:34I think it would be very difficult to do.
00:03:36If you were doing it in the dark, in the water, with mosquitoes all around you, would that make it even much more difficult?
00:03:48I would think so.
00:03:48It would take you, it would be a very tedious task for you, a skilled pathologist.
00:03:56It would.
00:03:58Now, isn't it true, doctor, that people have five, about five pints of blood?
00:04:04A little more than that, yes.
00:04:06Okay.
00:04:07Now, if I poured out five pints of blood out here on the floor, it would make a big mess with it.
00:04:14Yes.
00:04:14And it would be almost impossible to clean the food.
00:04:19Well, you could do it, but not very easy.
00:04:22It would be very, very difficult, wouldn't it?
00:04:23It's not easy to clean blood.
00:04:25Okay.
00:04:25Does blood soak into the ground?
00:04:28Yes, it does.
00:04:29Okay.
00:04:29Doctor, with this homicide we're talking about here today, would you agree with me that this could have happened in one of three ways?
00:04:39These injuries could have happened in the water.
00:04:41These injuries could have happened on the bank there by the side of the ditch, or it could have happened somewhere else.
00:04:47Would you agree with me that those are the three possibilities of how this could have happened?
00:04:50Yes.
00:04:50Okay.
00:04:51Now, with your knowledge of the amount of blood that was lost from not only Chris Byers, but these other boys who have some pretty...
00:04:58They're going to bleed as well, won't they?
00:05:00Oh, yes.
00:05:00Okay.
00:05:01Do you have an opinion as to whether or not you could clean up that amount of blood at a scene in the dark?
00:05:08Do you have an opinion as to that?
00:05:09I think it would be quite difficult to do, to have injuries of this nature without having any blood.
00:05:18I mean, that's...
00:05:20I would question that, about the blood.
00:05:23Okay.
00:05:24Unless it happened in the water or it happened some other place.
00:05:27Okay.
00:05:27And you, again, doctor, stated that you couldn't...
00:05:29You couldn't do this in the water.
00:05:32Personally, I don't think I could.
00:05:34Okay.
00:05:34I don't get off on hurting people or inflicting pain on the rest of the human race or just causing destruction for the purpose of destruction.
00:05:48And I've probably been in one or two fights my entire life.
00:05:56Hmm.
00:06:02And especially a child.
00:06:08Because they didn't do anything to deserve what they got.
00:06:12And I believe whatever you do to someone else, whether it's good or bad, is eventually going to come back around to you.
00:06:34Even the person who did this, if they're not caught and punished, then something will happen in their life where they will be punished.
00:06:47People kept telling me not to go out with him because he was, like, some kind of devil worshiper and stuff.
00:06:56And I met him in Walmart.
00:07:00And he followed me around like a puppy dog.
00:07:05And we started talking.
00:07:07You know, he was real sweet.
00:07:08Not like everybody else was making him out to me.
00:07:10And that night, we started going out.
00:07:13And it was, like, a month.
00:07:15And he called me up on the telephone at my dad's girlfriend's house.
00:07:19And he goes, will you marry me?
00:07:21And I'm like, what?
00:07:23And he goes, will you marry me?
00:07:25I said, can you repeat that one more time?
00:07:28And he goes, will you marry me?
00:07:29And I said, yeah.
00:07:31And when I got pregnant, I had this big picture painted in my mind that, you know, Damien's going to be there.
00:07:38And I get to yell at him when I have the baby.
00:07:42And instead, I was yelling at her.
00:07:46I miss him so much.
00:07:55And he hasn't gotten to see the baby.
00:07:57They won't let him touch the baby.
00:07:58I miss him.
00:08:01And it makes me so pissed off.
00:08:05I just felt different when he was born.
00:08:07It was...
00:08:11It made me feel, like, I guess just real good inside.
00:08:17Just to think that I gave life to another human being.
00:08:24Something completely separate from me, but still part of me.
00:08:31I just hope that I'll be there when he grows up to watch him.
00:08:42You're familiar with a fellow named Alistair Crowley?
00:08:46I know who he is.
00:08:47I know who he is.
00:08:48And he's a guy who kindly professes.
00:08:53He's a noted author in the field of satanic worship, right?
00:08:58I've never...
00:08:58I know he is, but I've never saw any of his books, personally.
00:09:02Not really much of a follower of his?
00:09:04I would have read him if I would have saw him, but I just never...
00:09:07But Alistair Crowley is a guy that, based on his writings, believes in human sacrifice, doesn't he?
00:09:17He also believed he was God, though.
00:09:19Okay.
00:09:21And he also had writings that indicated that children were the best type of human sacrifice, correct?
00:09:30Yes, sir.
00:09:30But Alistair Crowley doesn't have any particular significance to you?
00:09:37I know who he is.
00:09:38I've read a little bit about him, but I've never read anything by him.
00:09:42Let me show you a copy of some documents.
00:09:47Do you recognize that?
00:09:49Yes.
00:09:50Okay.
00:09:50What is that?
00:09:51It was this paper I had on different alphabets for, like, translations, where you could write things that nobody could read, and this was one of the forms.
00:10:03Oh, okay.
00:10:04Well, where did you have that at?
00:10:07When did you do that, write those things out?
00:10:10Sometime before I was arrested, I guess.
00:10:12Okay.
00:10:13Are you sure that you hadn't done those since you were arrested while you've been staying in jail?
00:10:18I don't know.
00:10:19I might have.
00:10:19Well, whose names are written on that document?
00:10:25Mine, Jason's, my son's, one that says Alistair Crowley.
00:10:30Wait, wait, who?
00:10:32Alistair Crowley.
00:10:33Now, this is a document that you've written while you've been waiting in jail for trial, right?
00:10:38If you say so.
00:10:39Well, you wrote it, correct, at your writing?
00:10:42Mm-hmm.
00:10:43Okay.
00:10:44You recall when you wrote it?
00:10:46Not really.
00:10:46Well, what I'm going to ask you is that this Damien Seth Azariah Eccles, your son, he wasn't born until after you were placed in jail, correct?
00:10:55Yes.
00:10:55Okay.
00:10:56So if you've got his name listed on this document, then this document had to be generated after he was born, right?
00:11:02Yes.
00:11:03Okay.
00:11:03So this is something you've written since you've been sitting in here in jail waiting for trial?
00:11:08Yes.
00:11:08And what you were doing was writing out various names in different type alphabets, correct?
00:11:14From the way it looks here, I was practicing, trying to memorize them.
00:11:17Okay.
00:11:17And one of the names that you picked out to write about was this fellow named Alistair Crowley, correct?
00:11:23Mm-hmm.
00:11:23Is that just a total coincidence you just pulled his name out of there?
00:11:28No, it's just the same book that I had with this, the different alphabets in it.
00:11:33It also had stuff about him in there.
00:11:36Well, did you have the book out there at the time you were doing this?
00:11:39This was just from what I remembered myself, where I was practicing, trying to memorize, get it all in my head.
00:11:45So you were going over it and working on it in your head, and at that point in time, you write all this down from memory?
00:11:54Mm-hmm.
00:11:54The people that are listed on here, you've got your name on here, right?
00:11:58Mm-hmm.
00:11:59And then Jason Baldwin, which is your best friend, right?
00:12:02And then you've got Damien Seth Azariah Eppel.
00:12:05Is that your son?
00:12:06Yes, it is.
00:12:07Okay.
00:12:08And then the only other name on this document, besides yourself, your best friend, and your son, is Alistair Crowley, correct?
00:12:16Yes, sir.
00:12:17I believe this witness is requested not to be photographed.
00:12:21That's correct, Your Honor.
00:12:24Would you state your name for the jury?
00:12:35Christy Van Bickle.
00:12:36Okay.
00:12:37And do like you just did and speak up the best you can, okay, Christy?
00:12:42Okay.
00:12:43Are you nervous?
00:12:44Yes.
00:12:46All right.
00:12:46Okay.
00:12:47Did you hear somebody say something about the murder of the three little boys?
00:12:52Yes, sir.
00:12:53I heard Damien Nichols say that he killed the three boys.
00:12:56Where were you?
00:12:57Was he saying that to you, or what were you doing?
00:12:59I was walking by with my friend.
00:13:09Christy, I'm Scott Davidson.
00:13:11Listen, I've got a couple of questions to ask you, too, okay?
00:13:13Okay.
00:13:14Okay.
00:13:16First of all, do you remember what day this was that you heard this?
00:13:21No, sir.
00:13:21That's the first time you'd ever seen him in your life?
00:13:24Yes, sir.
00:13:25What did he say before you say that he said he killed those three boys?
00:13:29What did he say before that?
00:13:31I don't know.
00:13:32What did he say after that?
00:13:35I don't know.
00:13:36And how close were you to him?
00:13:39I wasn't close.
00:13:40Did he scream it?
00:13:42I don't know.
00:13:43Did he yell it?
00:13:44I don't know.
00:13:47Call your next witness.
00:13:48Call Jody Bedford.
00:13:50All right, again, this witness has requested not to be photographed.
00:13:53Jody, I want to direct your attention to May of 1993 after the murders of the three little boys.
00:14:02Did you have an occasion to be at the softball field and hear a comment in regard to the murders?
00:14:09Yes, sir.
00:14:10All right.
00:14:11Tell the jury first what you heard.
00:14:16He said, I killed the three little boys, and before I turn myself in, then I'm going to kill two more,
00:14:21and I already have one of them picked out.
00:14:23You didn't recognize anybody else that was with him?
00:14:26I saw Jason Baldwin there.
00:14:29Had you heard people talking about Damien before this?
00:14:32Yes, sir.
00:14:34Did you think he was kind of weird or something?
00:14:39Yes, sir, because he was dressed all in black, and his hair was jet black and long and shaved on the side.
00:14:47Margaret, two teenage girls took the stand this morning,
00:14:49and they said they heard Damien Echols confess to the murders of three eight-year-old boys last May.
00:14:54One of the girls said she overheard Damien Echols say,
00:14:57I killed the three boys, and I'm going to kill two more.
00:15:00I already have one picked out.
00:15:02Later in the afternoon, when the defense began presenting its witnesses,
00:15:05Damien Echols himself took the stand.
00:15:07He said he thought the girls were lying and that they were making up those statements.
00:15:11He also said he did not practice Satanism and denied any involvement
00:15:15in the murders of Chris Byers, Michael Moore, and Stevie Branch.
00:15:18Were you working at Bojangles' restaurant on the evening of May 5th of 1993?
00:15:34Yes, sir.
00:15:35Could you tell us what happened?
00:15:37Well, it was about 9.30 at night.
00:15:40I found a black gentleman sitting in the women's restroom on the commode,
00:15:43and there was blood dripping off of his forearm, but he had mud on his feet,
00:15:49and he seemed to be disarrayed when I talked to him.
00:15:53I called the police then.
00:15:55What happened then?
00:15:56It was a female officer for the West Memphis Police Department,
00:16:00and she pulled on the light, and I saw her coming, so I went up to the front door.
00:16:04Well, she kept coming around.
00:16:06She went to the drive-thru window.
00:16:07So you did not go in the restroom?
00:16:10No, sir, I did not.
00:16:11Did you ever find this bleeding black man?
00:16:13No, sir, I did not.
00:16:15Do you have a report that you made regarding this incident?
00:16:18No, sir, I do not.
00:16:20And you're out looking for some boys, and you're out in that area,
00:16:23and you hear about someone bleeding.
00:16:24Did anything go off in your mind thinking that something may be going on?
00:16:28First of all, you've got to understand it's a different area I went to.
00:16:31It was a different ward I did not connect the two at all.
00:16:35Well, patrolman, it may have been outside your ward,
00:16:37but distance-wise between the area where you were looking and where this restaurant was,
00:16:42it's not a long distance, is it?
00:16:43No, sir, it's really not.
00:16:45Okay.
00:16:47Did any other officer come out there that evening?
00:16:50Not that evening.
00:16:52Were you working on the day of May 6th of 1993?
00:16:55Yes, sir.
00:16:56Two detectives came out, and they took a report as far as what I'd seen,
00:17:01a description of the gentleman, and then they took blood scrapings off the wall.
00:17:05All right, Detective Ridge, what is the date that you sent the blood scrapings off to the crime lab to be analyzed?
00:17:11They were never sent.
00:17:13They were never sent?
00:17:14That's correct.
00:17:16All right, where are the blood samples at this time?
00:17:19I don't know, sir.
00:17:20They're lost.
00:17:20They're lost?
00:17:21Yes, sir, that's my mistake.
00:17:22I lost a piece of evidence.
00:17:24Most of the time, he came up with the stupid ideas.
00:17:41I don't guess I influenced him about as much as he influenced me, I guess.
00:17:46Most of the time, we didn't really set out to do anything in particular.
00:17:49We just started hanging around, whatever happened.
00:17:51It just usually happened.
00:17:57Sometimes good, sometimes bad.
00:18:00We were just sitting on the couch watching TV the night, and we were arrested.
00:18:08The pigs busted in.
00:18:10Started running all over the house.
00:18:12We tried to hide in the bedroom when the cops first came, but they wouldn't leave.
00:18:15We were in the bedroom, turned the light off.
00:18:19Maybe they'll go away.
00:18:20I know you're in there.
00:18:21Open up.
00:18:23We saw the lights go out.
00:18:27Then Dominique turned them back on and turned them back out.
00:18:29No, that was my sister.
00:18:30Oh.
00:18:30Well, the interesting thing about it is, is that the one knife that we know somebody owns is the Byron's knife.
00:18:56We know he owns that knife.
00:18:58We know he owns that knife.
00:18:58He's got the motive.
00:19:00His son, who he's upset with.
00:19:02His son was the only one mutilated.
00:19:04The other two weren't mutilated.
00:19:07He's got knowledge about the area.
00:19:10He knows when the search is over with.
00:19:12He's big enough that he's big enough that he can carry the boys there and throw them in.
00:19:17He's a jeweler.
00:19:18He's precise enough to have committed that mutilation.
00:19:23All of the pieces fit together with somebody in a different location killing the boys in a different location because there's no mosquito bites on them.
00:19:35So we know that after the boys were killed and during, they weren't outside.
00:19:41They had to be inside because there's no mosquito bites on them.
00:19:44So that means they were carried from a death scene someplace, unconscious, and brought down to the river.
00:19:51And they had to be killed shortly before they brought down there because they all died within a short period of time.
00:19:57So after they were bled to death, after they were bludgeoned and unconscious, somebody had to take those three, take them to the scene, and dump them.
00:20:07In order to do that, you've got to be physically strong enough to carry a 50- to 60-year-old unconscious kid who's hogtied.
00:20:18Jason couldn't have done it.
00:20:20In his best day, he couldn't carry a little baby, those little skinny arms of his.
00:20:25So when we look at this whole thing, all the pieces that they tried to put together, none of it fits with Jason.
00:20:34And just about all of it fits towards a person like Byers.
00:20:38When did you receive that knife?
00:20:40On the, I believe it was on the 8th.
00:20:44I've got January, it's hard to make this out, January the 8th, 1994.
00:20:49All right, and who did you receive this knife from?
00:20:53I received it from, how did I actually receive it?
00:21:01Who did you receive the knife from?
00:21:03I received it from Joe and the people with HBO Productions.
00:21:11Okay.
00:21:12Bruce and Joe.
00:21:14Whatever he is.
00:21:15All right, upon receiving that knife, what did you do with it?
00:21:19I saw what I thought to be some type of substance on the knife, and naturally I did not know what it was.
00:21:26I, in turn, sent this knife to Genetic Design.
00:21:30When the knife was received by your firm, did you or your labyrinth test on that particular knife?
00:21:37There was a small amount of what appeared to be blood that was dried or tissue in a crevice on the knife where the knife folds when it locks.
00:21:48The results of the test showed us that there was DNA present on the knife, and that we were able to get a type using a test called HLA-DQ-alpha.
00:22:00And Mr. Byers had the same type that was detected from the specimen from the knife.
00:22:07Okay.
00:22:07And what was the DQ-alpha type for Christopher Byers?
00:22:12It was also the same type.
00:22:14So the blood on the knife and Christopher Byers' blood and John Mark Byers' blood all had the same type.
00:22:23Correct.
00:22:24Correct.
00:22:24Correct.
00:22:24Okay.
00:22:38Okay.
00:22:39Judge, if I can approach the witness.
00:22:41All right.
00:22:42Okay.
00:22:43Take a look at that mind bit.
00:22:45And I will call that, for identification purposes, the John Mark Byers knife.
00:22:58Doctor, did you make a comparison with this knife, E6,
00:23:04and compare that with some of the wounds that you found on Chris Byers?
00:23:07Yes, I did.
00:23:09Does that knife appear to be a serrated knife?
00:23:12Yes, this is a serrated knife.
00:23:13Do you have an opinion if some of the wounds that you found on Chris Byers
00:23:18were consistent with wounds which would have been caused by that type of serrated knife?
00:23:23Some of the wounds that have the smallest serrated patterns
00:23:26could have been inflicted with a knife having this type of serration.
00:23:34How do you think this has gone over so far on the Mark Byers aspect?
00:23:38Obviously, we thought long and hard about mentioning a father as a possible suspect.
00:23:45I hate having to do that, but the way the circumstances are,
00:23:49it's just coming out whether we really want it to or not.
00:23:53I mean, you know, we had suspicions even before the knife showed up.
00:23:57Do you think anybody realizes the reason for the three-day delay in Jesse's trial
00:24:02was waiting on that, the DNA test to come back on that Byers knife?
00:24:07I doubt it.
00:24:08And even after the results came back and it showed that it could be Mark's blood
00:24:13as well as Chris's blood, that doesn't alleviate the fact that he said
00:24:19no one had ever cut themselves on the knife.
00:24:21And it shouldn't have had blood on it at all.
00:24:25Well, do you think the theory, or the argument at least,
00:24:28that it wasn't that the blood was found on the blade,
00:24:31which could be easily wiped off, but it was back in the hinges
00:24:34that you normally wouldn't think, you know, if you were wiping off the blood,
00:24:38you wouldn't think the blood would be inside the hinges,
00:24:40and that's where they found that particular blood.
00:24:42How do we get that in?
00:24:43Well...
00:24:43Just ask Gitchell?
00:24:46Ask Byers.
00:24:46I mean, we could put Byers up on the stand.
00:24:48I think the jury expects to see them now.
00:24:50They want to see him up there.
00:24:51They want to see what he has to say.
00:24:53Don't you think so?
00:24:54I think so.
00:24:54Yes.
00:24:55Mr. Byers, I need to ask you about a defense exhibit number E6,
00:25:00this particular folding lock blade Kershaw knife.
00:25:05If I could approach the witness, Your Honor.
00:25:06Yes.
00:25:09Take a look at that knife.
00:25:10Had that knife ever been used before?
00:25:24Used for what?
00:25:26Used for any purpose.
00:25:29I'd had trim your toenails with it.
00:25:32I had attempted to trim on some venison that I had.
00:25:40You attempted to trim on some venison.
00:25:42When was it you attempted to trim on some venison?
00:25:45Some one time around the Thanksgiving holidays.
00:25:48Do you recall being asked on January 26th, this is on page 3,
00:25:52by Inspector Gitchell,
00:25:54had you ever taken that knife hunting or used it recently,
00:25:58do you remember being asked that question by Inspector Gitchell?
00:26:01Specifically, no, sir.
00:26:03You asked me a lot of questions.
00:26:04All right.
00:26:04Do you remember giving the answer,
00:26:07no, that knife had not been used at all.
00:26:11It had just been kept up, put in my dresser,
00:26:14and I didn't use it,
00:26:16and the reason why was because of the serrated edges.
00:26:19Do you recall giving that answer to Inspector Gitchell on the 26th?
00:26:25No, sir.
00:26:25I don't recall giving him that exact answer.
00:26:28I'm sure his question wouldn't have been asked exactly like your question.
00:26:32Did Gitchell tell you,
00:26:35let me explain a problem we had,
00:26:37and you need to answer this for me,
00:26:39we have found blood on this knife.
00:26:41Did Gitchell ask you that question?
00:26:43I don't remember if he said there was or not.
00:26:46Did you tell Gitchell you had no idea how Chris's blood could be on that knife?
00:26:50Yes, sir.
00:26:50I would not have any idea if his blood was on that knife.
00:26:54I would not know how it got through.
00:26:57Did you have any idea how human blood was on that knife?
00:27:01Well, yes, I would have an idea.
00:27:03I cut my thumb.
00:27:05All right.
00:27:06Is it true that you never told Inspector Gitchell on January 26th
00:27:10that you ever cut your thumb with that particular knife?
00:27:13Did you?
00:27:14Yes, sir.
00:27:14It seems like during the course of the day I did tell him that.
00:27:18Was that during the taped conversation or was that after?
00:27:21I don't remember.
00:27:23Okay.
00:27:23On the top of page 8,
00:27:25do you recall being asked the question,
00:27:27I have no idea,
00:27:29no idea how it could have any human blood on it.
00:27:34Do you recall giving that answer?
00:27:35Yes, sir.
00:27:36Then do you recall stating,
00:27:38I don't even remember nicking myself with it,
00:27:41cutting the deer meat or anything.
00:27:43Is that the answer you gave?
00:27:44Yes, sir.
00:27:45And is that the truth?
00:27:47At the time when he was questioning me,
00:27:50I didn't remember.
00:27:51I mean, I might not have remembered.
00:27:53We were getting ready to go into a trial.
00:27:58Did you remember on this date
00:28:00cutting yourself with the venison or not cutting yourself?
00:28:04The date that Gary questioned?
00:28:05The date that Gary questioned, yes, sir.
00:28:07I might not have remembered it at that time when he was questioning me,
00:28:11but I could have remembered it later on in the day and talked to him about it.
00:28:15Okay.
00:28:17Earlier that afternoon, had you given Chris a whipping?
00:28:22Approximately around 5.30.
00:28:24This was about 5.30.
00:28:25And was this with a belt?
00:28:27Yes, sir.
00:28:28Approximately how many times did you hit him with a belt?
00:28:31I spanked him two or three times.
00:28:33In what part of the body did you spank him?
00:28:36It would have been just on his behind.
00:28:39Okay.
00:28:39Was he wearing his pants or did you have him pull his pants down?
00:28:43No, he had on blue jeans.
00:28:44Okay.
00:28:45The judge back there during that last recess, before you were recalled here,
00:28:51says that you have a brain tumor and you're being treated.
00:28:56Do you want to talk about that?
00:28:58Is it true?
00:28:59It's been rumored since coronary.
00:29:01Yes, I have a brain tumor.
00:29:03And you're being treated for?
00:29:05Yes, I'm being treated for.
00:29:07I need to ask you one question, and I hope you won't get angry.
00:29:12But has this, even the suggestion that you may have had something to do with the murder of these boys caused any problems within your family or with any of the other victims' families?
00:29:27No.
00:29:28They all, they all know the truth.
00:29:31They know.
00:29:32They know.
00:29:36Do you have anything to do with these boys, Dad?
00:29:38No more than you did.
00:29:41Folderman said you're buying a new house. Is that right? You're leaving West Memphis?
00:29:44I didn't say that.
00:29:45Folderman did this morning.
00:29:46Yeah, he said that's why you were leaving.
00:29:48You know, we might try to move.
00:29:50Out of West Memphis?
00:29:52Well, somewhere. I mean, you would probably want to move.
00:29:57Yeah.
00:29:58Could you say where you're going to move? You want to say?
00:29:59No.
00:30:00Let me ask you a question, Mr. Sullivan.
00:30:02Would you want to live in a house that your baby died in less than three-fourths of a mile from it?
00:30:07I wouldn't know.
00:30:08No, okay.
00:30:09That answers the question. Come on.
00:30:11You're talking about your whole family, though, right? You're not just talking about you.
00:30:14You wouldn't move and leave your wife and children somewhere, would you?
00:30:17Not if we were going to stay together, no.
00:30:20Okay.
00:30:21I mean, some of the questions you ask are kind of ridiculous, you know. I know you might ask them, but some of them are kind of odd or strange or different or, you know, however you'd like to comment on them.
00:30:33But some of them seem like you just used a little common sense and think about what you would do or how you would feel.
00:30:39Some of the questions you fellows with Navy have to ask.
00:30:42We have to ask them.
00:30:43We have to ask them because we can't quote ourselves.
00:30:45We have to.
00:30:46I know, but a lot of times things are printed in the paper that people did not say in the news media.
00:30:52I'm not stating which individual says they got it from a confidential informer.
00:30:57You don't have to turn your confidential informer over.
00:31:00When your confidential informer is your imagination.
00:31:03You know, there's a lot of thing that's printed in the paper that people did not say.
00:31:08But the media has their rights to print what they want to print.
00:31:13You know, victims don't have any rights.
00:31:16Now that I've heard him talk, I kind of had an idea what he was like before he talked.
00:31:39But after he talked, it wasn't anything like I thought he would be.
00:31:43How is it?
00:31:45I see him now as more like a human being than I did before.
00:31:50Now I see him as having a personality.
00:31:54From a defense standpoint, I've never been a defense attorney.
00:31:57But to put him on the witness stand sure seemed to be an awful big gamble.
00:32:03And I can't understand the mindset to put you in the position where you're willing to take that gamble.
00:32:08Especially when you follow it up with Mr. Bojangles' accusations.
00:32:15It doesn't make any sense.
00:32:17Because to me, if I were on the jury, it would look like just something desperate.
00:32:22You know, they're going to cast blame on anybody and everybody they can.
00:32:27And the defense didn't have the guts to actually ask him did he do it.
00:32:32The song that I really can relate to by Metallica is Sanitarium.
00:32:51Because I feel like all those times that I was put in the hospital, I didn't need it.
00:32:58It was just the police another way for them setting me up when they couldn't send me to prison or something.
00:33:04I'm like, well, we'll get them out of our way for a little while by sending them somewhere else.
00:33:10I like Metallica because, well, all hard music like that because it, like, gives me an adrenaline rush.
00:33:26It makes me feel more alive.
00:33:31I know.
00:33:32I know.
00:33:33I know.
00:33:34I know.
00:33:35I know.
00:33:36I'll be really excited about that.
00:33:37I know.
00:33:38It's great people, but there'll be a lot of people that have not tried here.
00:33:41I know.
00:33:42But I don't think they're trying to tell us how they can.
00:33:44But I think that they're trying to tell us well.
00:33:45I know.
00:33:46I know.
00:33:47But, I know.
00:33:48I know.
00:33:50I know.
00:33:51I know.
00:33:52I know.
00:33:53If I knew these guys aren't gonna be pure.
00:33:54I know.
00:33:55But I know.
00:33:56I'm pretty cool.
00:33:57But I know I know.
00:33:58I know.
00:33:59I know.
00:34:30Now, during the course of talking to Mr. Echols, did you ask him who did he think did it and why?
00:34:50In one area, he says he had an opinion for who could have done the murders as being someone sick and that it was some type of thrill kill.
00:35:00He also stated that the penis was a symbol of power in his religion known as Wicca.
00:35:05He also stated that the number three has a sacred number in the belief.
00:35:09And did he tell you anything about demonic forces?
00:35:12Yes, sir.
00:35:13He said that all people have a demonic force in them and that a person would have no control over that demonic force.
00:35:21Mr. Echols was not the only person that told you that the kids probably died of mutilation, was he?
00:35:26No, sir.
00:35:27And when Mr. Echols, you asked him something to affect what type of books did he enjoy reading?
00:35:36Yes, sir.
00:35:37Okay.
00:35:37And he told you, I think, was it Anton Levy and Stephen King?
00:35:45Yes, sir.
00:35:45Okay.
00:35:47Now, in your opinion, is there anything unusual about those being the type of books that Mr. Echols likes to read?
00:35:55Anton Levy is a book of satanic rules and involvement.
00:36:02Stephen King seems to be horror movies, horror books.
00:36:08And if you're asking if I felt that was strange, yes, sir, I did.
00:36:12All right.
00:36:12Now, let me refer you back to your statement that you gave Officer Ridge.
00:36:21Did you tell him in that statement that you had been a member of a white witch group for five years?
00:36:27No.
00:36:28Okay.
00:36:29I've never been a member of any group.
00:36:31And so if he put that in his report, you're saying that's inaccurate?
00:36:35Yes, I am.
00:36:36He made that up?
00:36:37Yes, I am.
00:36:38On question number nine, how do you think it would, the person feels that did this?
00:36:45The answer was probably makes them feel good, gives them power.
00:36:50Now, I guess Officer Ridge said that, too.
00:36:52No, I use common sense on that.
00:36:54Okay.
00:36:55If someone was doing it, then they must have wanted to.
00:36:57And if they were doing something they wanted to, it must have made them happy.
00:37:00I mean, I don't think they were doing it because someone forced them to or because they didn't want to.
00:37:05So in your mind, the person that killed these three kids, it's common sense that killing three eight-year-olds would make you feel good?
00:37:16Whoever did it, it must have.
00:37:18Okay.
00:37:19Did you also tell him that each person had a demonic side to them?
00:37:23I believe every person has a good side and a bad side, yes.
00:37:27Were those your words when you referred, when he got written down here, he stated that there was no control of the demonic portion of people?
00:37:35He asked me, did I think there were some people that could not control that side?
00:37:40I said, yes, I guess there is.
00:37:42It also states that Damien stated that the younger the victim would be more innocent and, in turn, more power would be given the person doing the killing.
00:37:51Right.
00:37:52Did you state that?
00:37:52Yes.
00:37:53Those are your words.
00:37:55Mm-hmm.
00:37:55Did you pick that up when you were studying to be a Catholic?
00:37:58No.
00:37:59I saw that on several movies, books.
00:38:03Question number 11, when he asked you, how do you think they died?
00:38:08And the answer is mutilation, cut up all three, heard they were in the water drowning, cut up one more than the others.
00:38:17Is that again what officer Ridge said and you just agreed?
00:38:23No, I had saw that on TV, newspapers, people talking.
00:38:28And you knew it about the drowning, correct?
00:38:37I knew they were in the water.
00:38:38I didn't know that they drowned.
00:38:39You knew that one was cut up more than the others?
00:38:42He asked me, was it possible.
00:38:43He said, do you think one was hurt worse than the others?
00:38:45I said, yeah, I guess.
00:38:46So, again, that particular area is one of those things where officer Ridge told you and that wasn't your response.
00:38:53You just responded about the drowning and mutilation.
00:38:55If he didn't get the answer he liked, he would go back and try to get me to say something else.
00:38:59And it's your testimony specifically that you aren't the one who said one was cut up more than the other?
00:39:04No, I didn't.
00:39:05That it was officer Ridge you said that?
00:39:06I agreed with him when he said that.
00:39:08Okay.
00:39:09And if he says something different, he'd be lying about it, right?
00:39:13You're the one telling the truth.
00:39:14I wouldn't put it past him.
00:39:21Damien, we're getting close to the end now.
00:39:23How do you feel so far?
00:39:26I feel good so far.
00:39:28So far, to me, it looks like we've got it beat.
00:39:31What do you think the worst thing for us right now has been?
00:39:36In the three weeks we've been over here, what has hurt the most?
00:39:41I only know of two things that have really hurt.
00:39:43That one kid getting out there for Jason.
00:39:45Yeah.
00:39:45And those girls.
00:39:49The Thursday newspaper, which addressed you testifying on Wednesday, was real good.
00:39:54It talked about that you did well.
00:39:56But Friday's regarding your Thursday testimony wasn't as good.
00:40:00What do you think?
00:40:01I think I did real good on the first day.
00:40:02The second day, it didn't look as good because David kept trying to treat me up or something.
00:40:08There was one point in there, though, where he asked you, he says,
00:40:11it looks like you're just changing your story to fit whatever comes up.
00:40:17And you said, yeah.
00:40:18I was just, like, halfway listening to him.
00:40:23I was real nervous when I first got up there enough to keep my attention focused and everything.
00:40:28But after I was up there a few minutes, I just started daydreaming.
00:40:33Daydreaming.
00:40:39Maybe they'll only halfway kill you when they convict you.
00:40:44Halfway?
00:40:44Yeah.
00:40:45How do they do that?
00:40:45I don't know.
00:40:47Maybe they'll start daydreaming and forget what they're doing.
00:40:52Anything wrong with wearing black in and of itself?
00:40:56No.
00:40:58Anything wrong with the heavy metal stuff in and of itself?
00:41:01No.
00:41:02The Book of Shadows, anything wrong with that in and of itself?
00:41:04No.
00:41:05But when you look at it together and you begin to see inside Damien Eccles, you see inside that person and you look inside there and there's not a soul in there.
00:41:18My client is a teenager, and we certainly didn't hide that fact from you.
00:41:23And the fact that my client did some writings, take these back.
00:41:26Go back and read them.
00:41:27Go read all these.
00:41:28But this, in and of itself, is no evidence of murder, and even if you add in all the other things, quote, trappings of occultism, according to Dr. Griffiths, that has nothing to do with this case whatsoever.
00:41:40Is it a coincidence that this knife is found behind, in the lake, hidden behind Jason Baldwin's house?
00:41:52There are marks on Christopher Byers where you've got like a dash where it's a cut, a cut, an open space, a cut, and an open space.
00:42:02And if you take this knife and do that, you can see it leaves a cut, an open space, a cut, and an open space.
00:42:14Now, if you take this knife, exhibit, defense exhibit six, and even with the slightest pressure, it makes a straight line.
00:42:30Crime scene.
00:42:32It doesn't fit for a kid to bleed to death and not leave a drop behind.
00:42:40For all the other injuries to their faces, these other injuries are going to bleed too.
00:42:47And there's not a drop of blood?
00:42:49Not a drop of blood?
00:42:51Look at history.
00:42:53Look at hundreds of years of religious history.
00:42:56There have been hundreds of people killed in the name of religion.
00:43:00It is a motivating force.
00:43:03It gives people who want to do evil, want to commit murders, a reason to do what they're doing.
00:43:10Satanic panic.
00:43:14Yeah, that's a scary thing.
00:43:17But it's a scarier thing to convict someone with no evidence.
00:43:21If you can't figure it out, if it doesn't make sense, let's call it a cult killing and find somebody weird.
00:43:27Find somebody who wears black.
00:43:33But they left one thing go by the wayside.
00:43:38It's that there's nothing that links Jason to these activities.
00:43:44Not one witness says that's what he does.
00:43:47That's his beliefs.
00:43:49We don't have a writing, not a drawing, not a picture, not a person.
00:43:52Nothing links him to it.
00:43:56But that doesn't matter.
00:43:58That doesn't matter to them.
00:44:00Because he's sitting over there with Damien.
00:44:02They want you to convict him.
00:44:04Guilt by association is a horrible thing.
00:44:17Damien, do you think he looks like you?
00:44:19I don't know.
00:44:21Not really.
00:44:22I think he's got Damien's ears.
00:44:34Can you change his diaper, David?
00:44:36Hopefully not.
00:44:37So do you think you'll be spending more time with your child, Damien?
00:44:59Come on, Damien.
00:45:00It's time.
00:45:07So what's his first words going to be?
00:45:25Not guilty?
00:45:27His first words would be capital murder.
00:45:29What's it feel like to be, to go through a month-long trial
00:45:49that accused of something you didn't do?
00:45:51It's horrible.
00:45:52Are you nervous now?
00:45:59Yeah.
00:46:00I mean, there's nothing we can do right now but sit around and wait.
00:46:03But you got anything you want to ask me?
00:46:11Where do we go when Jerry comes back out and says,
00:46:14I'm not guilty?
00:46:15Well, where do you want to go?
00:46:20Where do you want to go?
00:46:22Disneyland, maybe?
00:46:23Would you?
00:46:23Would you like to go to Disneyland?
00:46:25Have you ever been anywhere out of...
00:46:27Have you ever been on a trip at all?
00:46:30Heber Springs.
00:46:31Heber Springs.
00:46:34Well, I tell you what, my man, it'd be a joy to take you.
00:46:40Would you like to go?
00:46:41You would, wouldn't you?
00:46:41Yeah.
00:46:42Do you understand now why we, uh, why we didn't want you to testify?
00:46:48Yeah.
00:46:51And you see how it hurt Damien?
00:46:53I think it did.
00:46:55And he'll see how they talked about his witnesses.
00:46:57Mm-hmm.
00:46:57See, they didn't have anything to talk about us.
00:47:00They didn't have anything to talk about because we didn't give them a chance.
00:47:03And, uh, oh, man.
00:47:11It's heavy.
00:47:17Do you think that, uh, this will change you at all?
00:47:23How you choose your friends?
00:47:24Yeah.
00:47:28What do you think this would do?
00:47:30What do you think this is going to do to you and Damien?
00:47:32You and your friendship with Damien?
00:47:39Stop it, I guess.
00:47:41Would you stop being his friend?
00:47:43I wouldn't be his enemy, but after this, I probably wouldn't be around her.
00:47:47You heard what was said about him.
00:47:50Do you think he could have done it?
00:47:55About what they said?
00:47:57Yeah, do you think he could have?
00:47:58Do you think Damien could have killed those little boys?
00:48:01They made it seem like he did.
00:48:18What do you think?
00:48:19I don't know.
00:48:25If you were on that jury, would you have a hard time letting him go?
00:48:28Based on what you heard?
00:48:32Yeah.
00:48:41I would, uh, would you let yourself go?
00:48:48Yeah.
00:48:50If I was up there, I'd let myself go definitely.
00:48:54That's the thing that's where I wanted to hear.
00:48:56Because you know you didn't do that, don't you?
00:48:58Yeah.
00:49:02Did Paul surprise you on his closing?
00:49:06I think Paul should have left out the guilt by association part.
00:49:10He came down hard on that, didn't he?
00:49:11Mm-hmm.
00:49:13Do you have any idea he was going to do that?
00:49:15Mm-hmm.
00:49:17I thought he'd be smart enough to stay away from him.
00:49:21Perch your feelings?
00:49:21I wanted to strangle him.
00:49:31Were you watching the jury?
00:49:33Mm-hmm.
00:49:35How do you pick it?
00:49:37With my finger?
00:49:38Yeah.
00:49:38Um, now I think it was probably about 60, 40.
00:49:4544 and 60 against us.
00:49:52After you get out of here, are you going to buy the beer?
00:49:55The whiskey.
00:49:58I want my beer.
00:50:01And I'll buy the Bojengla's chicken.
00:50:02I'm going to get a cigar, cut it open and dump all the tobacco out, fill it up with marijuana, smoke the whole thing.
00:50:19I mean, we've got to get you out of here.
00:50:21You've got to go to work where you can pay my bill.
00:50:22Mm-hmm.
00:50:23I'm going to get a job at a gas station or something.
00:50:28Change my name to Bob Smith.
00:50:31All right, ladies and gentlemen, the bailiffs informed me that you've arrived at verdicts.
00:50:36If you have, pass them to the bailiff, please, or the sheriff.
00:50:42The first verdict reads as follows.
00:51:03We, the jury, find Damien Echols guilty of capital murder and the death of Stevie Branch.
00:51:08We, the jury, find Damien Echols guilty of capital murder and the death of Chris Byers.
00:51:16We, the jury, find Damien Echols guilty of capital murder and the death of Michael Moore.
00:51:21We, the jury, find Jason Baldwin guilty of capital murder and the death of Chris Byers.
00:51:27We, the jury, find Jason Baldwin guilty of capital murder and the death of Stevie Branch.
00:51:33We, the jury, find Jason Baldwin guilty of capital murder and the death of Michael Moore.
00:51:37all of the verdicts are signed by the foreman.
00:51:42Ladies and gentlemen, it's necessary at this time
00:51:44that the court hold the jury as to all six verdicts.
00:51:50So when your name is called,
00:51:53if these six verdicts represent your individual verdict,
00:51:57then answer yes as your name is called.
00:52:01Jure R. No. 1.
00:52:03Yes.
00:52:03Jure R. No. 2.
00:52:05Yes.
00:52:05Jure R. No. 3.
00:52:08Yes.
00:52:09Jure R. No. 1.
00:52:15Jure R. No. 5.
00:52:17Yes.
00:52:18Jure R. No. 3.
00:52:20Yes.
00:52:21Jure R. No. 7.
00:52:23Yes.
00:52:24The prosecution didn't have any evidence, but they don't care.
00:52:28Just because somebody was black and had different beliefs,
00:52:31they're going to convict them or something.
00:52:33Jure R. Poor, poor parents.
00:52:35Yeah.
00:52:35Jure R. I'm sorry for them, but...
00:52:36Jure R. I ain't...
00:52:37I ain't sorry for...
00:52:39Jure R. I'm sorry for the kids.
00:52:40I ain't sorry for the kids.
00:52:41I ain't sorry for...
00:52:41Jure R. I don't give a damn about the parents, but I'm sorry for the kids.
00:52:44I ain't even sorry for...
00:52:45I'm sorry for anybody.
00:52:47Jure R. There's no reason to kill three more boys that didn't do a damn thing.
00:52:55Jure R. So right now, I wish I was a witch.
00:52:59Talk about a spell on somebody.
00:53:01Boy, I'd put a good one on.
00:53:04Jure R. I guess Gitzel goes out with Big Bang, because you know he's fucking going to retire.
00:53:08Jure R. He's already said he was going to retire. Now he's probably going to run for office.
00:53:12Jure R. I got an office for him, mayor of hell.
00:53:18Boy, I'm certain West Memphis can go to hell.
00:53:21Jure R. West Memphis is hell.
00:53:23Jure R. I have put my 20 years in, and hopefully this is the last case I'll have of this magnitude.
00:53:32Hopefully it's my last case, and I'm leaving on a high note, so there's no better way to leave than your head up high and proud.
00:53:43Jure R. Well, you know, I'm not surprised. That's what you're asking.
00:53:50Jure R. You know, I told you earlier, I thought the evidence was more than sufficient to make those findings.
00:53:55Jure R. They won't kill no more babies. No more babies will they kill.
00:54:00Jure R. Let's go.
00:54:03Jure R. Ooh.
00:54:07Jure R. Sure, put the block shot in right behind you.
00:54:18Jure R. The black one or blue?
00:54:20Jure R. The blue?
00:54:21Jure R. The blue?
00:54:21Jure R. Yeah.
00:54:22Jure R. All right.
00:54:22Jure R. Just right there.
00:54:36Jure R. There you want.
00:54:36Jure R. There you want.
00:54:39Jure R. Right away.
00:54:41Jure R. There we go.
00:54:50All right, let's go.
00:55:20We know you're innocent, Jason.
00:55:50I knew from when I was real small that people were going to know who I was.
00:56:20I always had that feeling.
00:56:22I just never knew how they were going to learn.
00:56:27I kind of enjoy it because now even after I die, people are going to remember me forever.
00:56:33They're going to talk about me for years.
00:56:34People in West Memphis will tell their kids' stories.
00:56:39It'll be like, sort of like I'm the West Memphis boogeyman.
00:56:44Little kids will be looking under their bed before they go to bed.
00:56:47Damien might be under there.
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