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As the music industry faces a new era of AI, the fight over artists’ rights is playing out in Washington D.C.. On this week’s episode of Billboard On The Record, host Kristin Robinson is joined by Mitch Glazier, Chairman/CEO of the RIAA (Recording Industry Association of America), to discuss the intersection of music and politics, the importance of keeping the music industry top of mind in a crowded political climate and the introduction of the NO FAKES Act, which is making its way through Congress. From AI transparency and standardized labeling to whether AI is the next Napster, Glazier and Robinson take a look at the RIAA’s work to protect the recorded music industry.
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Billboard On The Record is a podcast in partnership with SickBird Productions.
Host:
Kristin Robinson
Executive Producers:
Diona DaCosta
Jade Watson
Produced By:
Kayla Forman
Mateo Vergara
Edited By:
Rachel Derbyshire
Love what you hear? Don’t forget to rate, review and subscribe so you never miss an episode of Billboard On The Record.
Love what you hear? Follow Billboard On The Record on Instagram, TikTok, Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Youtube @billboard so you never miss an episode.
Billboard On The Record is a podcast in partnership with SickBird Productions.
Host:
Kristin Robinson
Executive Producers:
Diona DaCosta
Jade Watson
Produced By:
Kayla Forman
Mateo Vergara
Edited By:
Rachel Derbyshire
Categoría
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MúsicaTranscripción
00:00We're going to be talking about the intersection of music and politics.
00:03People often say that D.C. is Hollywood for ugly people.
00:06That's sort of like that.
00:07I wasn't going to say it.
00:09D.C. is all about a brand around a person.
00:13And an artist is all about a brand around a person.
00:16They all have teams.
00:17With everything going on in D.C. right now, there are a ton of hot button issues,
00:21life or death situations.
00:23And then you come in and you're like, hey, let's care about music.
00:26Is it difficult to get people to see the gravity of what is going on in the music industry?
00:31It's not because everybody loves music.
00:33The first thing I ask any person who's elected to Congress is,
00:37what was the song that you danced to at your wedding?
00:40That is our secret weapon.
00:43This industry is small with a huge impact.
00:46When I talk to people about generative AI,
00:48they'll say generative AI is music's next Napster moment.
00:52Do you think that that's a fair comparison?
00:54I think it's the opposite.
00:54I would say with Napster, we were put in this terrible situation
00:58where it was like, you know, the industry versus fans.
01:02That's not where you want to be.
01:04AI is the complete opposite.
01:05Like the fans, the people, they're with us.
01:08I want to talk about the No Fakes Act.
01:10It was first introduced as a draft bill in 2023.
01:12Then it was formally introduced in 2024, reintroduced in 2025.
01:15Welcome to Congress.
01:21The midterm elections are just weeks away, and it's got me thinking.
01:25What's going on with music in D.C.?
01:27No, I'm not talking about what I imagine is a very lovely local music scene in D.C.
01:31I'm actually asking about music-related legislation.
01:34With every pressing issue the lawmakers are focused on,
01:38is there any hope that the music industry is going to get any meaningful support on key
01:42issues for music right now, like AI, for instance?
01:46Today, I'm joined by RAAA CEO Mitch Glazier to speak through what he's seeing every day
01:51and what he thinks the industry should be paying attention to.
01:54Mitch Glazier, welcome to On The Record.
01:56Thanks for being here.
01:57I'm glad to be here.
01:58Mitch, I feel like it's actually been a really long time since I met you.
02:01I was just thinking about this.
02:02We met in Germany.
02:03Do you remember?
02:04Yes.
02:04We met at Reeperbahn.
02:06Yes.
02:06The Reeperbahn Music Festival in Hamburg, Germany.
02:08How weird is that?
02:10I can't believe both of us went, because I don't think that that's typically the conference
02:14circuit.
02:15No.
02:15I got invited to be on a panel with the head of the German music group.
02:22And I can't even remember what the topic was.
02:25Yeah.
02:25I mean, it was a long time ago.
02:26Right.
02:26We had set up an event with the U.S. ambassador to Germany.
02:30Oh, that's pretty cool.
02:31Yeah.
02:31That was pretty great, actually.
02:32That is great.
02:33And by the way, a very fun festival.
02:35Very fun.
02:36And it was cool.
02:37I didn't even really know all of the Beatles lore about Reeperbahn and Hamburg and all that
02:42stuff.
02:43It was really fun.
02:43But I remember the first impression I had of you is Rob Levine introduced us, who was
02:48my former colleague.
02:49And before you got there, he was like, don't worry, Mitch is one of those executives you'd
02:53actually want to have a beer with.
02:55He's not a boring executive.
02:57So you got that.
02:58What if I was like, and we have beer right here?
03:00Like, but anyways, thank you so much for joining me today.
03:05We're going to be talking about the intersection of music and politics, music on Capitol Hill.
03:10I can't think of anyone who would be better to talk about this topic with than you.
03:13But I wanted to start off by asking you about kind of how DC and Hollywood compares, the
03:23kind of characters that you see in both places.
03:24I have heard before people compare the two, but I'm wondering what your take is living in
03:30both worlds.
03:31There are a lot of similarities.
03:33It's, you know, DC is all about a brand around a person, right?
03:41And an artist is all about a brand around a person.
03:44They all have teams.
03:45And it's not like you're working for, you know, Coca-Cola or the corporation, right?
03:50You're working for this senator.
03:52You're working for this congressman.
03:53It's about them, their views, their, you know, what they want to put out to the world.
04:00And your job, and I was a staffer to a member of Congress, your job is to make sure that
04:07what
04:08they want to get out there, they get out there successfully.
04:10And then you try to help with the reaction to what they put out there, right?
04:15And so there are a lot of similarities besides the fact that politics and entertainment and
04:20music are topics that are dinner table topics.
04:24And so everybody is sort of interested in it.
04:28Families fight over these two subjects at Thanksgiving, right?
04:32The stakes are a little bit different, I will say.
04:34They are.
04:34They are.
04:35They are a little.
04:35Well, it depends on the family, maybe.
04:38But yes, the stakes are a little bit different.
04:39But there are a lot of similarities.
04:42People often say that, you know, D.C. is Hollywood for ugly people.
04:45That's sort of like the.
04:46I wasn't going to say it.
04:47Like the fun, right.
04:48But I do think that there that the intersection of politics and entertainment is fascinating and mostly because people care
04:56so much about both and both of them are so important to sort of American culture and everyday life.
05:02So it's it's an awesome it's an awesome place to live if you don't mind.
05:08Chaos.
05:11In both places, you got big, strong personalities.
05:13Yes, for sure.
05:14Yes.
05:15That's so interesting to think about, like, you know, staffers for a congressman or something being similar to kind of
05:20having to be a publicist for an artist.
05:22Yeah, you're a market.
05:23You're on a marketing team.
05:24I mean.
05:24Yeah.
05:24And, you know, instead of creating art.
05:27Right.
05:27You're creating a piece of legislation or a message or you're trying to get.
05:32You know, you're trying to do something that you want people to accept and to like and to want to.
05:38You're trying to create a movement in different ways in both places.
05:42So it's it's not very different.
05:46I guess.
05:47In the end.
05:47And, well, I mean, you could probably say that L.A. is probably or Hollywood is kind of like D
05:54.C., but for dumb people.
05:55It's like a little bit.
05:57Maybe we're a little bit more vain, but.
06:00Yeah.
06:00Maybe not quite as intellectually savvy.
06:03Yeah.
06:03It goes both ways.
06:04Yeah.
06:05It's like, you know, one kid was in chorus and band and the other kid was on student council, but
06:10they both want applause.
06:12So true.
06:12True. Well, OK, so with everything going on in D.C. right now, there are a ton of hot button
06:17issues that are very important right now, like life or death situations that everyone is dealing with.
06:23And then you come in and you're like, hey, let's care about music.
06:27And I'm wondering how that usually goes over.
06:29Is it difficult to get people to see the gravity of what is going on in the music industry and
06:34what you're advocating for?
06:35You know, it's it's not because we're music and everybody loves music.
06:40Right.
06:40I mean, the first the first thing I ask any person who's elected to Congress is what was the song
06:48that you danced to at your wedding?
06:51I want to get them to a place where automatically and only music can do that.
06:55Only music can bring you back immediately to something in your life that's incredibly important.
07:00And, you know, when they think about it and they answer, you're like, music's important and it needs to be
07:07protected.
07:08And then I remind them that the Constitution actually gives them a job to do and that they're bound to
07:12do it under the law and that they have to secure our rights.
07:14And I go through the whole thing.
07:15But we always start with music.
07:17That is our secret weapon.
07:19Right.
07:20Because this industry is small with a huge impact, huge impact on American culture.
07:26But we don't have the revenues that AI companies have, that tech companies have, even that other entertainment industries have.
07:35But I would argue that we are the most impactful industry with the least amount of revenue.
07:41And so, you know, we can't go in and, you know, give contributions everywhere or throw, you know, sort of
07:49like these, you know, lavish, you know, sort of events.
07:54But we do have artists who are willing to engage.
07:57We do have executives who are willing to sort of help members come in and understand what it's like to
08:03work in this industry.
08:04And they're fascinated by it.
08:05And there are, you know, Congress is organized into committees and subcommittees.
08:10And so there is a subcommittee sort of specially dedicated to intellectual property.
08:15And those few members within the whole body have to become sort of the experts.
08:20So, yes, we have to work with 535 members.
08:24But we really are able to sort of focus on those who understand their charge.
08:29So, yeah.
08:30Interesting.
08:31We get noticed.
08:32Yeah.
08:32Well, I mean, I think you made a really good point.
08:35And I think a lot of people probably listening to this podcast don't really zoom out enough to realize that
08:39music is really quite a small industry in the end.
08:43Compared to film and TV, it is definitely just a fraction of the size.
08:48But I'm curious.
08:50Over the last few years, as Hollywood has gone through a series of strikes, Hollywood has a ton of union
08:56presence that music doesn't really quite have as much of.
09:00And I started hearing from a lot of folks being like, why can't the music industry just band together and
09:05stick together?
09:06Why can't we unionize?
09:07Why, you know, kind of looking over at everything happening in film and TV and wondering where the solidarity was
09:12in music.
09:13And I'm wondering if you've ever, like, thought much about that, about the reason why Hollywood works the way it
09:19does versus the way the music industry does.
09:22I know you probably work with the Motion Picture Association, SAG-AFTRA, those kind of folks fairly often.
09:28So, yeah.
09:28We do.
09:29And part of it is a little bit technical because they have one copyright, really, and we have two.
09:34Yeah.
09:34You know, it's not like a screenwriter negotiates separately with theater owners in order to get a movie out there,
09:44right?
09:45So, we have a history where only the song, only the musical composition, the note and lyrics, was protected for
09:52a very long time.
09:53And the whole history in our country developed around that.
09:55We didn't have federal protection of sound recordings until 1972.
09:58Which is crazy to think about.
10:00Which is nuts to think about.
10:01And there's a lot of fun political reasons for that.
10:03But because of that, you know, we're not sort of like the motion picture industry where there's a studio and
10:10the studio makes an investment.
10:12Everything sort of flows from there.
10:13We really do have a very strong music publishing side and sound recording side.
10:17And we do have to band together as a community for anything we do in public policy.
10:22And so, I would say that over the past several years, we've been very fortunate.
10:27We, on the recorded music side, have worked hand in glove with the publishing side and vice versa.
10:31We help with them with their priorities.
10:33They help us with ours.
10:34There was a day when we were against each other.
10:37And that was the most self-defeating period.
10:40Yeah.
10:40When was that?
10:42Mostly pre-streaming when record companies were the ones that paid the mechanical royalties.
10:48Oh, yeah.
10:48Yeah, yeah, yeah.
10:50That's a little deep in the weeds for everyone listening to this, but yes, that is absolutely true.
10:55So, we went from being sort of like on opposite sides of the negotiation table for money to really sort
11:01of being on the same side with streaming companies and distributors having different interests.
11:06And that brought us together.
11:08And then I would say with the unions, we're very lucky that we have SAG-AFTRA and AFM, where I
11:14would say over 90% of the time, we are all on the same side fighting for the same thing.
11:18And especially when it comes to AI and protecting voice and likeness and working together on a lot of these
11:25issues that have come up, we have not only been in lockstep, we've been like developing our strategies together.
11:33When we go into an office, it's all of us together.
11:36And, you know, if the music industry is divided, we're already small.
11:40If we're divided, it's going to be very hard to push a rock up a hill.
11:43But when we're together with artist engagement, we can do a lot.
11:48Yeah, I mean, it definitely doesn't hurt to have Randy Travis go to Capitol Hill and make an appearance.
11:53It does not.
11:53And songwriters walking, you know, songwriters who you may not know them, but you know the songs that they wrote.
12:00And they come with their guitars and they, you know, they don't just go in and make arguments.
12:05They pull out their guitar and they start playing and they're talking as they're playing.
12:09They're the best storytellers in the entire world.
12:11And, you know, you just watch these folks melt while they make their case.
12:18So we really do have a good collective industry right now, especially when it comes to these issues.
12:25So I'm also curious, do you find that you guys have more success advocating for music issues with folks who
12:33consider themselves to be Republicans or Democrats?
12:36Such a great question.
12:38Unlike many other industries, we it does not break down by party.
12:43It is a very bipartisan issue.
12:45I would say that there are arguments that you might lean on more or less depending on the audience.
12:50So, for example, a lot of Republicans support the music industry because they believe in property rights and they want
12:57to make sure that this constitutionally given property right is protected.
13:01It's also, you know, individual freedom and the ability to sort of negotiate freely with property that you have and
13:09free speech issues.
13:10And then on the Democratic side, although they also very much care about those issues, but they also care about
13:16workers issues.
13:17Right. And now many on the Republican side also care about those issues.
13:20So it's a little bit it's very bipartisan.
13:24You know, we might emphasize one thing more than another, but for the most part, it breaks down a little
13:30bit more by geography than it does by party.
13:34Got it. So essentially, like, you know, folks who are from Tennessee and California and New York are probably going
13:41to be very well versed in the music industry and be very pro music industry.
13:46But I imagine folks may be in kind of the middle of the country that have less access to that
13:50industry might not.
13:52They might not be as into it now, but they still want live music to come to their to their
13:57district.
13:58Right. They still want to make sure that their constituents who also love music, which is why artist engagement is
14:04so important, that they hear from them.
14:06So we have different strategies for different members, obviously.
14:10But yes, usually the heroes, the folks who are willing to, like, go and fight on the floor for us
14:15are usually from places like Nashville or Miami or Los Angeles or New York where there is a concentrated music
14:25presence.
14:25And they understand why that's important to the people that they represent.
14:30And then sort of everywhere else, we kind of have to form coalitions and allies.
14:35And, you know, there are giant whiteboards with all sorts of ideas about how we reach different members when we
14:42need to.
14:43Well, I'm wondering, as politics has gotten a little bit more divided and more extreme on both sides, how that
14:49has affected the way that you have to go after and convince these politicians to pay attention to music issues.
14:54So weirdly, it brings them together.
14:57And I think, you know, at the end of the day, they are human beings.
15:01They actually do crave working together, even though it's seemingly more impossible these days.
15:07So when we have a hearing on music, it's almost like this big sigh of relief.
15:13The members come.
15:14They're nice to each other.
15:15They care about it.
15:18They defer to each other.
15:19It's almost like they've been dying to actually be normal and nice to each other.
15:24And we present that opportunity for them.
15:27We also, every event that we do, almost every event that we do is bipartisan.
15:32So we bring them together with music and help them to get to know each other and their families and
15:38their friends.
15:39And, you know, music brings out the humanity in people.
15:42And so you can't just hide behind talking points.
15:45You know, you tend to actually have to get to know the person.
15:48And when you do that, it turns out they're not so bad.
15:52Yeah.
15:52After all.
15:53Yeah.
15:53No, I mean, I'm sure it is such a relief when, after many days of talking about, like, Iran, that
15:58they get to talk about music rights.
16:00It's amazing.
16:00And especially our committee.
16:02Our committee is the Judiciary Committee, which the reason why it's in the Judiciary Committee is because intellectual property comes
16:09directly from the Constitution.
16:10So that all those issues that are in the Constitution, property rights, contract rights, all those things go into the
16:17Judiciary Committee.
16:17And this is the committee that has the most polarizing issues you can ever imagine.
16:22Right.
16:22I mean, it's all the social issues, it's guns, it's abortion, it's crime, it's immigration, like, all of these hot
16:29-button issues.
16:30And then music.
16:33So you get to be the fun guy.
16:35Yeah, we do get to be the fun ones.
16:36The hard part, honestly, is getting everybody on the same page.
16:42And, you know, especially when you're trying to work with distributors, with platforms, with AI companies, to try to get
16:49consensus around something that can actually pass.
16:52Because the harder part is getting the stakeholder groups on board, rather than the politicians on board.
16:58That's interesting.
16:59That's really interesting.
17:00But it does make sense.
17:01I do feel like sometimes the music industry takes on this kind of every man for himself mentality.
17:06And, like, going back to kind of comparing music and film, I've thought a lot about this.
17:11Because I will sometimes have people text me and ask me about, you know, kind of comparing the two.
17:17Especially because I live in Los Angeles, and I'm kind of in the heart of all of that.
17:21And I often think that a lot of the music industry's issues of coming together kind of boils down to
17:27the fact that our product is, like, a singular person in their vision.
17:30Rather than film being, the product that they're selling is a thing that takes hundreds of people to put together
17:37and teamwork and coalition building just to get that one product that you've worked on for years out in the
17:42world.
17:43And so I think there's a little bit more of a collectivism there.
17:47That being said, I've never worked in the film industry.
17:50So I would have to ask one of them.
17:51I'm curious.
17:52So we've talked a lot about, you know, the House and the Senate so far.
17:56What are some of the other areas of government where you guys are really trying to keep in touch, put
18:02your message out there in front of?
18:04Like, does it matter if you're working with the Trump administration closely?
18:07Just tell me more.
18:08Yeah.
18:09So the administration is incredibly important.
18:11There are several different parts of it.
18:13One is trade.
18:15Okay.
18:15You know, music is a giant export for the United States.
18:18Yeah.
18:18And we also want to make sure that other countries don't enact laws that allow them to take American music
18:23for free or below market.
18:24That hurts our economy.
18:26It hurts our creators.
18:26It hurts our cultural impact.
18:28And so we work a lot with the U.S. Trade Representative's Office, and we work a lot to help
18:34pressure other countries not to do stuff that would, you know, put our works at risk and our artists at
18:42risk.
18:43The State Department is the same.
18:45Believe it or not, we're involved in a lot of international standard setting, which is incredibly important and super boring.
18:51Okay.
18:52And so we have these unbelievable experts that work with the National Institute of Standards and Technology and all the
18:59international standard setting organizations that are sort of outside of government.
19:03But our government has an impact on those organizations.
19:06Interesting.
19:07But the Patent and Trademark Office has the Undersecretary of Commerce for Intellectual Property.
19:12That's the chief advisor to the president on intellectual property.
19:15And they have an expert staff that comes up with policy positions.
19:18And on AI, we had to work very hard with the administration, including the White House, National Economic Council, Office
19:26of Science and Technology Policy.
19:28And there's an acronym for everything.
19:30I mean, you want acronyms.
19:31I mean, we can go down the list.
19:34But, you know, they were going to put out what is the administration's policy, for example, on whether or not
19:40AI companies should pay for music when they train their models.
19:44And we had to work very hard on a national policy framework that basically said, you know what, that question's
19:50in the courts.
19:51We have laws that are going to deal with that, and we'll see what happens.
19:55And so, you know, getting to those places, making sure that executive orders on AI don't do anything that hurts
20:01the music industry.
20:02We have hours and hours and hours of communication and work.
20:05But I would say it doesn't matter who the administration is, honestly, when it comes to our stuff.
20:11We kind of deal at the expert level, the career level.
20:16And while it's very important who sort of comes in and out, and of course, we have to talk with
20:21those that are sort of political appointees as well.
20:23Well, directionally, we're very lucky because we get to deal with people who are true experts in copyright, who understand
20:30sort of the history and the importance to the U.S.
20:32And generally, I think we do pretty well.
20:35And it's one of the few areas where I think we did well in the Biden administration and we're doing
20:40well in the Trump administration, except for a recent development where, in the New York Times case, the Justice Department
20:48did a statement of interest that was very different than sort of all of those.
20:53pieces of the government.
20:54So even when you're sort of working with the government, it's not a monolithic thing.
21:00You know, yes, it's like the Trump administration or the Biden administration, but different pieces of the government sometimes do
21:05contradictory things.
21:07And then you have to work very hard to try to shore it up.
21:10Man, that sounds like a lot of work.
21:13It is.
21:14It is a lot of work.
21:15It's a lot of talking.
21:16Yeah.
21:17Well, I'm wondering if you've noticed a noticeable difference in how amenable the Trump administration is to the music industry.
21:23From Trump administration, number one, to second term that we're in right now.
21:28I would say that generally, you know, this administration sort of stems from the top.
21:35It's, you know, unlike sort of like the George W. Bush administration, which was sort of like more bottom up.
21:41Interesting.
21:42And the president loves music.
21:44Absolutely loves music.
21:46He does.
21:46Oh, my God.
21:46He like takes out a Spotify playlist.
21:49He shows people.
21:49What do you think?
21:50Wait, what?
21:51He loves music.
21:52He loves music.
21:53What does he listen to?
21:54You know, so they don't publish his playlist.
21:57Obama published his playlist.
21:58So we sort of like got to see it.
21:59Oh, yeah.
22:00So I only know anecdotally from like folks who have been with him and he's like shown them different songs.
22:06But a lot of times I think it's something that was maybe like pushed in an algorithm and he listened
22:10to it.
22:11And he's like, hey, have you heard this song?
22:12I kind of like it.
22:13It's more of like a discovery thing.
22:15So that's wild.
22:16I mean, I mean, I know everyone loves music.
22:18It's just kind of funny to think of Trump having a personal life.
22:21And like, you know, we were just talking about Miley Cyrus before we started recording.
22:25If he was like a huge bangers fan.
22:27Yeah, I don't know.
22:28Yeah.
22:29Yeah.
22:29It's a good question.
22:31Obama did have really good music taste, though, I will say.
22:32He's still putting out his playlist.
22:34He's still putting out his playlist.
22:35He also loved music.
22:37I mean, he was a little bit more genre specific.
22:40Right.
22:40He and I enjoyed listening to his playlist as well.
22:44But I love the fact that, you know, Biden and Trump and Obama have nothing in common.
22:51Really?
22:51Absolutely nothing.
22:52Except for the fact that even when even when Biden was vice president, Obama was president.
22:56You were still it still just didn't seem like personality wise.
22:59But all three of them love music.
23:02What was Biden's taste?
23:03So Biden, when he was in the Senate, which is when I knew him much better than obviously once he
23:09became vice president and president, used to play music in his office every time you would go in.
23:16And I can't really remember sort of like any particular genre sort of hitting me.
23:20But I do remember, like, how cool it was that here I am from the music industry going in to
23:26talk to him and he's playing music in the office.
23:28It's like a, you know, as a music creator, your focus should be on making music, not figuring out health
23:35insurance.
23:35That's why BMI created BMI Health Connect, a free service for its U.S.-based songwriters and composers designed to make
23:42finding health coverage easier.
23:44In partnership with Gallagher Alternative Health Solutions, BMI Health Connect gives you and your immediate family personalized access to expert
23:52advisors who can answer questions, explain your options and help you find coverage that fits your budget and lifestyle.
23:59One conversation can bring clarity to a frustrating process so you can spend less time on health insurance and more
24:05time creating the music.
24:07If you're a U.S.-based BMI affiliate, call 833-997-5805 to speak to a licensed advisor today or visit
24:17BMI.com to learn more.
24:19Well, I'm wondering, okay, so overview for the RAAA right now, what are some of the key issues that y
24:25'all are really trying to attack?
24:28So a lot of it's AI.
24:30Yeah.
24:30Well, hey, look, I love, I do not love AI.
24:34I love talking about AI.
24:35Yeah, so it is all-consuming, like literally all-consuming.
24:39But the first is to make sure that when an AI company wants to train a model on music and
24:48they're copying music to make the model, that they respect the copyright that goes along with making the copy.
24:54It's pretty simple.
24:56They argue that it's fair use, that because it's not like Spotify where they're taking the song and distributing the
25:02exact same song, that they're transforming it and mixing it with a lot of other things and turning it into
25:08a new creation.
25:11That, therefore, they don't have to pay for it.
25:14But we don't think the law works that way.
25:16We think when you are creating a product that's going to directly compete against the underlying work and you have
25:22the potential to impact the economic viability of that work, then, sorry, you've got to pay for what you do.
25:30So that's sort of one of the biggest issues, and that's what we're doing in court right now.
25:37Another giant issue is protecting voice and likeness.
25:39You know, when I was growing up, we didn't have voice clones.
25:42We didn't have image clones.
25:43So there really weren't laws that were focused on protecting it.
25:47The only laws that were focused on protecting name, image, and likeness were really about endorsing product.
25:52Like, I can't put your face on the cereal box to endorse the cereal without asking me, right?
25:57But what if I just am using it for fun?
26:01What if I'm using it to make you say something that you never would have said or that you disagree
26:05with?
26:07And this sort of blew up with the fake Drake, fake weekend song.
26:10Oh, yeah.
26:12And grew from there.
26:13And now the voice cloning technology is just incredible.
26:16So we went to Tennessee and worked with the state government there to amend their right of publicity law to
26:21protect voice and likeness in the context of AI.
26:24And that became the basis for federal negotiations.
26:27So now we have the No Fakes Act.
26:29We are close to consensus on it.
26:34Marsha Blackburn, who's a senator from Tennessee, just went to the floor to try to move it.
26:39A couple of other members objected because they want to work out what they consider to be sort of free
26:43speech concerns.
26:45It's a tricky issue in voice and likeness.
26:47Like, when do I have the right to use your voice because I want to use it for my speech
26:51versus you having a right to your voice because it's your speech?
26:54So we just have to make sure that we have the right balance.
26:57I think we're there.
27:00But that's a legislative issue.
27:01And we've been working on that with the unions, with the songwriters, with the entire music coalition for a long
27:07time.
27:08And then you get into transparency issues.
27:10And this is where fans really care.
27:12Not that they don't care about the first two.
27:14But fans want to know if a song is AI or if it's not AI.
27:19Yes.
27:20I mean, it's off the charts, like 92% in polls, focus groups.
27:24Fans want to know.
27:25And they can make their decision once they know, you know, whether they want to listen or they don't want
27:30to listen.
27:30But what they don't like is feeling duped.
27:33Like, they listen to a song and they think it's real and it's not.
27:38It's generated.
27:40And so there are lots of laws in the states, in the European Union, in Congress, focused on transparency.
27:49Like, what does an AI company have to disclose?
27:53And in the world of copyright, you know, we can't get into court unless we can show that a copy
27:59was made.
28:00Well, if we can't see it, how do we enforce our rights?
28:03So there's a whole bunch of, like, super legal issues around transparency.
28:08But the industry got together and came up with a labeling program for platforms around this issue, which is you
28:16should label at the track level for consumers what is assisted AI, what is generative AI, and give them the
28:24knowledge so that they can know.
28:26Yeah.
28:26And you guys spearheaded that, right?
28:28We did with IFPI.
28:29With IFPI, which is the international trade body representing the recorded music industry.
28:33It's like the UN for record labels.
28:37For record label trade bodies around the world, I guess, where we all sort of, like, come together and coordinate.
28:41Yeah.
28:42And so we can work on what's going on in Australia or what's going on in Chile or what's going
28:46on in, you know, China.
28:48Yeah.
28:48So I covered that when it came out.
28:49It was a couple months ago, I think now, when you guys released this information.
28:53And, I mean, the next hurdle is getting streaming services to actually adopt it and do that in a uniform
29:00manner.
29:01Because it's, you can say what you want to happen, but that doesn't necessarily mean everyone will agree.
29:06I'm wondering what's the state of things.
29:08Have you guys been having conversations with the streaming services and are any of them eminently going to roll something
29:13like this out?
29:13We have.
29:14And the reason why we came out with it, too, is each streaming service was kind of starting down the
29:18road on a path and they were different from each other.
29:21They're all different.
29:22Worse for a fan than to have, like, five different systems out there.
29:25Yeah.
29:26And so we came out with, like, an icon, kind of like the parental advisory label that everybody could use
29:32and implement in the same way if they want to.
29:36I think that the issue right now is who's going to tag it?
29:42Who has that responsibility?
29:43And when it comes from a label, that's pretty easy, right?
29:48We can tag it.
29:49We can give it to the platform.
29:50They can read it.
29:52But when it comes to the DIY world, right, individuals uploading millions of tracks through DistroKid or TuneCore or whatever,
29:59should it be the distributor?
30:01Should it be the platform?
30:02What's the obligation to read it?
30:05You know, what should the generator themselves do and be responsible for?
30:10So it's a little complicated, but I do think that there's a willingness to sort of move along and get
30:16there.
30:17And I do think there's an interest in harmony.
30:18Most of it's being done in one of those boring international standard-setting bodies called DDEX, which is where everybody
30:25is trying to agree on the fields and the way to implement it.
30:28And once they agree on that, it'll be easier for us to work with them to get a more uniform
30:33program.
30:34Yeah, that is one of those side effects of the democratization of music creation, which is, I think, objectively a
30:40good thing in a lot of ways that people can make music and upload it and get noticed if they
30:45want to.
30:46But the challenge is also, like, when you're uploading music and you have no team, like, you don't really know
30:50what to do.
30:51Like, you know, do you know who all the songwriters are and what your splits are when you're uploading the
30:56song?
30:56Do you know how to properly label it if it's explicit or if it's AI-generated or whatever?
31:02So, yeah, I do hear you.
31:05The kind of DIY piece of it is going to be interesting to figure out.
31:09I'm also a bit concerned with labeling in general with what if there are false positives, where if you use
31:18an AI detection system to automatically apply these tags, which would take a huge burden off of everyone if you
31:23could do it automatically.
31:25But what happens if someone has no AI in their song and for some reason or another it trips the
31:30AI detection system?
31:31They get that label and it's basically a scarlet letter on streaming services since so many people have such negative
31:37reactions to hearing a song as AI.
31:41I think that's why, you know, like the California transparency law and there was just a sort of an update
31:47to it that was just signed into law by the governor yesterday, I think.
31:51One of their aims is to make sure that the generators themselves, the AI generators themselves, have to tag, mark,
31:59or label, you know, watermark in some way.
32:02So that instead of depending on detection technology to sort of just look at it with no mark on it
32:08and try and discern what's in it, it's tagged in the first place.
32:12And so I think that's one of the reasons why the focus on tagging at the source has been so
32:17intense.
32:18Can we trust people, though, to tag properly?
32:21Well, if they get in trouble under the law, that's about the best you can hope for.
32:27And I think that the, you know, the update to the California law, I think, tries very hard to the
32:32companies that are based in this state who are subject to that law.
32:36I think it tries very hard to say you could be regulated if you don't do this.
32:42So the original law went into effect in August.
32:44They have started watermarking, you know, whether it's consistent, how it'll work.
32:49All of that is stuff we'll be working on for a little while.
32:52I never want to say it in a dismissive way, but I think that, like, we forget how early on
32:57we are in the generative AI revolution, evolution, whatever you'd like to call it.
33:03And so I do think we, although the issue is, needs to be addressed now and we need to start
33:08the process, we're still at the very early stages of what this is all going to look like.
33:14Which is why I think when we're, when we're doing our job in Washington and we're writing laws, we need
33:20to not be technology specific if we can, if we can help it.
33:25It should be behavior based.
33:26It's okay to do this because it's an okay thing to do.
33:29And it's not okay to do that because it's not a good thing to do.
33:33And so, you know, if it's based on behavior, like, you know, whether or not you are compensating somebody when
33:39you take their work versus, well, you have to put in this particular technology in this particular space.
33:47I think that's the difference between a law that can sort of live through the evolution, which is happening really
33:52fast, and laws that become, you know, obsolete in two months.
33:57Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's very interesting.
34:00So sometimes when I talk to people about generative AI, they'll say, you know, generative AI is music's next Napster
34:07moment.
34:08I don't know if you've heard this before, but people will always kind of compare the two.
34:11And I'm wondering how you think about the two.
34:14Do you think that that's a fair comparison?
34:15I don't.
34:17I think it's the opposite.
34:20First of all, I would say with Napster, when we were fighting, we were sort of fighting against the people.
34:28You know, it's like, you know, oh, this is so great.
34:31I'm receiving this free stuff.
34:32And then we were unable to act against the companies and kind of forced to act against the people.
34:37And I think that we were put in this terrible situation where it was like, you know, the industry versus
34:42fans.
34:43That's not where you want to be.
34:44AI is the complete opposite.
34:46Like the fans, the people, they're with us.
34:50They want to make, you know, they are very hesitant about and leery of AI replacing the human element that
34:58makes music what it is, that gives music its soul.
35:01That's the magic that comes from life experiences.
35:04People don't want to lose that.
35:06And so, you know, this idea of music generators sort of taking human works and then like running them through
35:13a machine and using musicology to pop something out, you know, it's kind of like popping out a body without
35:19a soul inside.
35:21And I don't think, I know people don't want that because we've done the focus groups and we've done the
35:26polls and the numbers are like 92%.
35:28And same thing with like worry about algorithms feeding them AI stuff that's not labeled.
35:36And then they feel, they feel duped because a fan wants an authentic connection to an artist.
35:41It's, it's not just about the music.
35:43It's about like, it's about the person.
35:46It's about the artist.
35:47And I think we're different than film in that way too.
35:50And that I've never heard anybody in the music industry call an artist, the talent.
35:54Yeah.
35:55You know what I mean?
35:56Yeah.
35:56Like actors, it's like a studio is like, you know, okay, it's time to bring in the talent or whatever.
36:01In, in the record world, right.
36:03An art that you invest with in an artist, you partner with an artist, they go out and it's
36:07sort of like, they're the director and the actor and the, you know, they're in charge of
36:11everything.
36:12They're in charge of everything.
36:13For better or worse.
36:13Right.
36:13Because it's their genius that you're coming back and then you're, you're getting their
36:18music out there.
36:20It is.
36:20So it is.
36:21That's interesting.
36:22It is different.
36:22And I think that fans crave that connection and they don't want it taken away.
36:29And AI could do that.
36:32And so on the other hand, AI is a potential revenue source for the industry.
36:36If done right with fans' interests, with artists' interests, working with the unions,
36:40et cetera, I think could be a great revenue source, help produce, you know, music the way
36:46technology has always helped creators create new stuff as long as they're able to keep the
36:52soul inside of it.
36:53So I don't really think it's Napster-esque at all.
36:58I have answered this question to friends before, and I usually just say, I think Napster
37:03was a huge disruption in terms of the way we consume music.
37:06Whereas, I mean, generative AI does touch the consumption aspect.
37:10I don't want to discredit that because once AI music ends up on streaming services, it is
37:14competing with all of this human-made music for royalty dollars.
37:19But I see generative AI as more of a disruption in the form of music creation.
37:25So...
37:25Yeah, agreed.
37:26That's right.
37:27And I think when it comes to the charts, it gets even more personal because if an AI
37:32song, you know, charts, it is literally taking the spot of a human being, right?
37:38Like, it is right there and apparent.
37:41Like, if it's number 18 on the charts, then a human is not at number 18 on the charts.
37:48And so, like labeling, sort of the eligibility for charts is a big issue that people are thinking
37:57about.
37:57And disclosure is a key part of it, and eligibility is a key part of it.
38:02But there's just this fan connection to the artist and this magic that exists in the world
38:10world of music where I think AI companies would be wise to partner with those creators who can
38:22work out a way where everybody can bring to the fan what the fan really wants in the way that
38:27the
38:28artist is envisioning it.
38:31And it may not be the same business model in other aspects of these AI companies, but when
38:36it comes to music, I think if they don't adopt that attitude, not only are they going to lose
38:42out, but if you don't incentivize the creation of music, what is going to feed the beast, right?
38:47I mean, we all know that these AI companies, once they use former output as their input,
38:54the quality goes down, right?
38:56We've just seen that in Suno version 6.
38:59And we also know that if you only use output over time that comes from AI as input for AI,
39:05you get eventual model collapse, which means that they get nothing.
39:09So the incentive should be there for everybody to work together to create incredible new worlds
39:16of opportunities and revenue, but we're fighting through the legal piece first.
39:20And we always seem to do that, don't we?
39:21We always have to like, like Grokster, like we had to get through the Supreme Court before people
39:27could start partnering and creating a new music industry.
39:30And, you know, it's kind of, it's kind of tough that we have to go through that again.
39:34Yeah.
39:35Yeah.
39:35Well, yeah, looking back at that time period with, with Napster and then later Grokster and
39:39all that stuff, the RAAA was super active at that time.
39:42And like you were alluding to, like did go after music fans using Napster as a way to
39:48try to quell digital piracy at the time.
39:51I think now that we're 20, 25 years after that time period, I think I hear from music
39:59executives kind of this wanting to distance themselves from that period and being kind
40:02of like, I don't know if we did the right thing there or not.
40:05And I'm just curious at the RAAA, like as you've reflected on that time period, do you
40:11feel like the RAAA handled Napster the way they should have?
40:16We were sort of forced into it in a succession of lawsuits, but, you know, originally there
40:22was no suing of consumers.
40:24It was a, what we called a pre-litigation settlement letter.
40:28And we basically sent a letter saying, hey, you're stealing a bunch of stuff.
40:33It's not legal.
40:36We won't sue you if you want to settle this.
40:39And how about we settle it for, and it was a fairly nominal amount.
40:42Enough to basically say this is wrong and to create a deterrent, but not to get to the
40:47level of lawsuits.
40:49But the ISPs decided that they wanted to stop giving us the names of people before lawsuits
40:57could be filed.
40:58What does ISP mean?
40:59So Verizon, you know, Comcast and sort of all of the internet access providers.
41:06And so we had to go to court and we said, look, we think that we should get the names
41:11ahead of time.
41:13The court said, nope, you can't get the names ahead of time.
41:16The only way to enforce your rights is going to be to file a lawsuit against John Doe.
41:21And so instead of sending a letter and sort of trying to work it out ahead of time, you
41:26know, you start walking down this path and now you're forced to sue John Doe.
41:30Well, John Doe could be, you know, a 12-year-old kid who happened to have their name on the
41:37account or, you know, a dead person who, you know, didn't exist before.
41:45And so you end up in all these embarrassing situations and they all become stories.
41:49And so, you know, we were a little bit forced into it.
41:53I think that when the industry, everybody has to remember during Napster, and I try to forget
41:57myself, we lost half the industry.
42:00Oh, yeah.
42:00It was catastrophic.
42:01I mean, we went from six majors to three majors.
42:03We lost 50% of our revenue.
42:06And so I think at the time, you know, desperate times call for desperate measures and people
42:12were desperately trying to create the record that this was illegal, knowing one day we'd
42:17probably have to end up in the Supreme Court.
42:19So it ended up well in the Supreme Court.
42:22And then I don't, I hope that the industry never gets into a shape again where it ever sues
42:27users.
42:27Um, but it is also true in Washington that the big line for all these trade associations
42:33that represent tech companies is you should go after the wrongdoer, not, not the provider.
42:39In other words, don't go after the company that has tons of capital and investment.
42:44You should go after the kid who uploaded it.
42:48Right.
42:48And they say the wrongdoer, what they mean is, right.
42:51The college kid.
42:52Right.
42:52Yeah.
42:53And so there's, there's sort of a, a pushed policy of, oh, you can enforce your rights,
42:58but it can only be in a way that we know you wouldn't want to do.
43:02Interesting.
43:02Yeah.
43:02I'm sure the terms of service for all these platforms is like, we don't have any responsibility.
43:07It's you, not me.
43:08Right.
43:08We're just putting something out there.
43:10You can use it for good or bad, not designed at all to facilitate any of this kind of behavior.
43:16Yeah.
43:16Well, okay.
43:17So I want to talk about the No Fakes Act.
43:18That is a huge push for you guys.
43:20Um, and you have mentioned a little bit about this before, um, but the, the language in
43:27it, um, it talks about digital replicas, which is, I think no lay person really knows what
43:34that means.
43:34So can you just tell me a little bit more about No Fakes Act?
43:37So the, the definition is pretty narrow actually, but the definition is, you know, a highly realistic
43:41computer generated replica of your voice or your likeness.
43:45In other words, a clone, right?
43:47So it's, it's, I'm cloning your voice or I'm cloning your likeness to use it in a way that
43:52you didn't consent.
43:52So it's not a meme.
43:54It's not like the onion.
43:55It's not a picture.
43:57It's not something on Saturday night live.
43:59Um, it is really about AI cloning.
44:03Okay.
44:03Okay.
44:04So, but what if it's like not AI given you're saying digital, does that mean kind of any sort
44:09of recreation generative AI or not?
44:11No, because it really has to be, it, it, it has to be computer generated, so it doesn't
44:17have to be AI, but it has to be so highly, it has to be highly realistic.
44:21Uh, and so, you know, is something, uh, not as technologically sophisticated as AI capable
44:28of producing a digital replica that matches that definition?
44:33Probably not.
44:34Got it.
44:35Yeah.
44:35So you've been working on the No Fakes Act for a minute now.
44:38Um, it was first introduced as a draft bill in 2023, then it was formally introduced in
44:422024, reintroduced in 2025.
44:44Welcome to Congress.
44:45Reintroduced in 2026, and we're close to the midterms now, and then holidays, and then we're
44:51into 2027.
44:52So I'm wondering what you think the timeline is realistically, uh, for this getting past
44:58the Senate floor.
44:59Yeah.
44:59So we have a shot in the lame duck, a real shot.
45:03Um, you know, every, every, nobody knows what the, what's going to happen in the election,
45:07obviously, and nobody knows what's going to happen, you know, in that time period between
45:10the election and the new Congress.
45:12But this is one that has such broad support, both from a coalition basis and from members
45:18of Congress, House, Senate, Republican, Democrat, um, that, you know, if we can work out a couple
45:25of these last issues, I think it has a real shot at what we call unanimous consent.
45:29And that is somebody literally saying, Hey, I, if nobody opposes this, I think we should
45:36just pass it.
45:36And if nobody objects, then it can pass.
45:39So, you know, whether there's like a vehicle that it could be attached to, we really don't
45:44know.
45:45But I do think that we've got a shot in this Congress to get this done just based on the
45:50support.
45:50Um, but I'm an optimistic person, uh, more likely it goes into the next Congress.
45:57It'll have to be reintroduced in both the house and the Senate.
46:01Um, but this is where we are so fortunate that our issues are completely bipartisan.
46:05It doesn't matter if, you know, if the house changes or the Senate changes, or they both stay
46:10the same, um, or they both change, this bill will be on a trajectory for quick introduction
46:16and quick movement because it's got such broad support.
46:19Yeah.
46:19Why do you think it's taken so long for the No Fakes Act to get through so far?
46:23Coalition building.
46:24Um, you know, we started out with sort of, you know, us and the unions and the artist groups
46:31together.
46:32And then we broadened out to the motion picture industry, which was hard because they use a
46:35lot of AI in a lot of different ways for making motion pictures.
46:38We had to make sure that this didn't do something unintentional.
46:41Uh, and then we broadened it out to YouTube and the streaming platforms, which took a long
46:47time because the obligation is on them to take these digital replicas down when they get a
46:53notice that says, Hey, that's my face and that's my voice.
46:57And I didn't, I didn't say that that was okay.
47:01Um, and so we had to make sure that it could be practical, that, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't
47:07too laborious.
47:08We had to make sure that they weren't going to face legal repercussions for doing what
47:11we wanted them to do.
47:13And then we had to broaden that out to the AI companies.
47:16And we basically went to open AI and said, you know, you, this is one bill that you should
47:22be for, even though it expresses rights in the context of AI.
47:27Um, and to their credit on this bill, they agreed.
47:30And then we went to the Trump administration and we talked to all the acronyms about it.
47:35Um, and the Trump administration ended up supporting it and they put in their national
47:39legislative policy framework, their support for the no fakes act.
47:43So it's kind of like this, you know, you just keep building over time, your coalition until
47:49you get to the point where you might have a single issue or one objector and you're never
47:55going to get anybody, but it takes years to accomplish that.
47:58Meanwhile, this technology is like, you know, racing, racing, getting even more realistic.
48:04Um, yeah, no, I mean, uh, Senator Ted Cruz is the one who's holding it up as of this week.
48:09Um, and I'm wondering what, like, what's the process when something like that happens?
48:12Do you just go to his office and you start working with this team and trying to be like,
48:16what is the holdup here and how can we fix it?
48:18Yeah.
48:18So usually the, the authors of the bill.
48:21So in this case, Senator Coons from Delaware, who's the Democrat Senator Blackburn from Tennessee,
48:25who's the Republican, they will organize a meeting with the teams for Senator Cruz or any other
48:32objectors.
48:33Uh, and, uh, if appropriate, they'll invite different stakeholders in to answer questions
48:38about how it might work in our industries or how it might be implemented, et cetera.
48:41But it's really the, it sort of gets to the level where the members, you know, have to do
48:46their thing.
48:47They have to do their work.
48:48Uh, and they do.
48:49And we've got two great senators who are, are planning on doing this.
48:53And so hopefully I can work it out.
48:55He's a little bit more worried about unintended consequences.
48:58Like how does this, what if it's three days before an election and somebody uses a, a voice
49:03clone in a, in an election ad and it gets taken down and before a judge can figure out whether
49:10it's protected by the first amendment, the election's over.
49:12Right.
49:12So, yeah.
49:13So it's, you know, there are sort of like very specific issues that kind of have to be
49:18thought through and worked out.
49:19And as you go through the process and you've solved this issue, then like another little
49:23one pops up.
49:24And that's also part of the timing where you have to, you kind of have to live and breathe
49:28it and let different groups sort of in their minds play with how it would work.
49:33And then as people bring up issues, you have to try to solve them.
49:37And sometimes you can't.
49:38Yeah.
49:39Yeah.
49:39Well, I have so many more questions for you, but I'm going to end off on one before we get
49:44to our games and that is that the midterms are coming up next month.
49:47And I'm wondering what elections do you think are critical for music issues?
49:53So we're losing Marsha Blackburn in Tennessee because she's running for governor and she's
49:59likely to become governor in Tennessee.
50:00So she, if she becomes governor, will name her replacement who then will have to sort of
50:08run for that seat later.
50:09That's a very important seat.
50:10Um, we obviously pay great attention to what's happening in what we call like our home states,
50:16right?
50:17What's happening in Florida and Texas and New York, California, uh, Tennessee.
50:22Um, but for us, we also have to pay attention to who's going to be in charge of the committees
50:27that handle all of our topics.
50:31Um, and you know, we play this parlor game in Washington where we sort of like try and figure
50:36it out.
50:36You never really know until the, the conferences meet who takes the helm is critical because
50:42if they're really interested in our issues, um, that can make a big difference.
50:46If they're not that interested in our issues, we have to try to make them interested in our
50:50issues.
50:51Um, and that's again, where we try to find out what music they love and how can, how can we
50:58engage them if they love a particular artist or a particular songwriter?
51:01Uh, the chairman of the commerce committee, uh, who's from Kentucky is a huge John Prine
51:07fan and also grew up in Muscle Shoals and he's a great guy.
51:10He's a great music guy.
51:12Um, but I think like the joy of his life was meeting the folks from Oh Boy Records who were
51:19able to come in and like talk about John Prine's legacy and what he would have wanted and what
51:25they thought he would think about these things.
51:27And, you know, it's not going to make a difference in sort of maybe an ultimate vote or something
51:31like that, but it does help to connect.
51:35It tugs at the heartstrings a little bit.
51:37And that's what, that's our, that's what we've got.
51:39That's our secret weapon.
51:40Yeah.
51:41Well, okay.
51:41Mitch, are you ready to play some games?
51:43I'm ready.
51:43Okay.
51:43This is a game that we like to call spin the record.
51:48Spin the record is brought to you by BMI.
51:51I'm going to have you spin the record a few times and we'll see what it lands on.
51:55All right.
51:56Okay.
51:56AI companies are pouring money into the 2026 election.
52:00How can music and creative industries ensure their voices are still heard?
52:05Yeah.
52:05So, um, I mean, we've talked a little bit about it.
52:08Um, the, the, the clutter is huge.
52:10I would say that, uh, we are not topic number one, two, three, four, or five when it comes
52:17to what the AI companies have to be concerned about.
52:19Right.
52:19I mean, it's data centers and it's national security and it's, uh, energy.
52:25Um, and so while music is, you know, important, um, given their revenue and given their capitalization, I mean, we're
52:34sort of like, uh, a blip.
52:36So I would say that we've been able to push through and get attention in the AI world, like on
52:42no fakes and our issues, despite the fact that they're otherwise pouring in gazillions of dollars.
52:48Okay.
52:49Got it.
52:50Okay.
52:50Spin again.
52:51All right.
52:53Which up and coming Senator or member of Congress is a rising champion for music creators?
52:59Ah, good question.
52:59Uh, so a guy named Matt Van Epps, uh, who represents Nashville, uh, in the house.
53:04Not surprising.
53:05Uh, great guy, uh, served our country, uh, very interested in sort of learning about a community that he represents,
53:13but doesn't know that much about.
53:15Right.
53:15He didn't come from that part of the Nashville experience.
53:19Um, and so, uh, I, I think he's going to be great.
53:22Um, we have some candidates who are out there, uh, who are either musicians or musician adjacent.
53:30So if they end up coming in, um, that could be a plus because, you know, even though this, everybody
53:37loves this industry and it's awesome, it's complicated.
53:39Like just as we've been talking, you almost realize when you're in the middle of the bed, we got to,
53:44we got to get out of the weeds and come back up because it's a super complicated industry.
53:49And so, um, it really takes somebody who's, who really wants to learn about it.
53:53Um, a guy from Texas, Nathaniel Moran, uh, who's been a terrific champion, especially on sort of helping us vis
54:00-a-vis other countries in protecting American artists, uh, I think is a rising champion in the space.
54:06Um, there's, uh, um, a representative from, uh, Vermont, Becca Ballant, who's on the judiciary committee.
54:12Uh, she's been terrific.
54:14Laura Friedman here from California, um, who, you know, represents a lot of the LA area.
54:20Uh, so it makes more sense.
54:21She's really sort of diving in and she was a state representative.
54:24So she also sort of ran into some of these issues in the state house.
54:27So, um, those are a few names.
54:29I love that.
54:30I love that.
54:31I, I, um, last year at the Sona summit songwriters of North America summit, another acronym, of course, for today,
54:38I got the chance to speak to Maxwell Frost, uh, who's a representative from Florida.
54:43Uh, he's a drummer.
54:44That was really fun to get to talk to him about that and see that he had such a deep
54:48passion for music.
54:49Like he was naming out things.
54:50So I was like, shit, I got to look that up afterwards.
54:53Yeah.
54:53And when you can get like Nathaniel Moran and Maxwell Frost, who are ideologically sort of completely on opposite sides,
55:00but they come together.
55:01I love that.
55:02Yeah.
55:02Okay.
55:03Could you spend it?
55:03Yeah.
55:06Great.
55:07Which member of Congress or Senator do you think is the biggest music fan?
55:10Oh, maybe Brett Guthrie.
55:13Okay.
55:13He's the muscle shoals guy.
55:15Okay.
55:16Cause he could just, I mean, he just, his, his knowledge of music history is so amazing.
55:21Yeah.
55:21Um, specifically kind of in that muscle, specifically in that sort of muscle shoals realm.
55:25And, you know, Aaron, Aaron McAnally, who, uh, run Sona, her dad, Mac McAnally, right there.
55:32She and he are obviously both from the muscle shoals, uh, area.
55:36Um, and so when you put those two together, it's just like, oh my gosh, but it's even more
55:41than just music history.
55:43It's like, you know, they start naming names of people.
55:46Like, well, did you know, well, her granddaughter still lives, but all of them, but it's all
55:51around music.
55:52I love that.
55:53It's all around recording at muscle shoals and what a difference that made in their lives.
55:57I mean, that's so cool.
55:58Yeah.
55:58So I'm sure there are more that I'm, that I'm forgetting.
56:01We have a lot of really good music lovers.
56:03Yeah.
56:03I love that.
56:04All right.
56:05Well, let's move on to our final segment of the show, which is called, what would you
56:08cue?
56:09Um, so I am going to name out a few scenarios and I'll just have you name one song per
56:13scenario
56:14and what you would play.
56:16Oh boy.
56:16Okay.
56:17What would you cue to take you back to your childhood?
56:20Probably American pie.
56:21Cause my mom played it all the time.
56:23It's a great pick.
56:24The whole thing all the way through.
56:26So I doubt I listened to the whole thing.
56:28Um, but I remember, I remember it playing all the time.
56:32And then I remember listening to it on the radio and later being surprised, like, did they
56:39really play that entire song on the radio?
56:41Do they, there's gotta be a radio.
56:42There's gotta be.
56:43That's a great question.
56:44Yeah, that is a great question.
56:45I can definitely find that.
56:47There must have been.
56:47I mean, that song is one of the longest hit songs.
56:50I would actually, you know what?
56:51That'd be a good playlist idea.
56:52What are the longest hit songs?
56:54I think there's a couple of door songs that are really long.
56:57Like the end by the doors is really long.
56:59Uh, Bohemian Rhapsody is quite long if I remember correctly, but yeah, American pie, long one for
57:05sure.
57:05Okay.
57:06What would you cue to represent your favorite era of music?
57:09The eighties is my favorite.
57:11I'm an eighties kid.
57:12I went to both.
57:13I went to both high, high school and college in the eighties.
57:16Okay.
57:17And so like, I.
57:19Formative years.
57:20Lived very formative years.
57:21I didn't breathe it.
57:22So, you know, Duran Duran, Hungry Like a Wolf was probably sort of like a life changing,
57:28sound changing, um, sort of, if I could divide it into two, it'd sort of be like Duran Duran
57:34and the sort of second British invasion on one side with like Michael Jackson and Prince,
57:39right?
57:39On the other side.
57:40Like those are kind of like the two tracks of my eighties life.
57:44I love that.
57:45I love that.
57:45Okay.
57:47Finally, what would you cue to remember the best concert you've ever been to?
57:51The year I graduated high school, 1984, um, that spring, right before I graduated, I went
57:58to go see Van Halen, uh, jump had just come out.
58:02So it was like the, the song and the concert and the concert.
58:08And I saw them at Rosemont horizon, uh, in, I grew up in Chicago and I, I mean, I think,
58:14I think I jumped the entire concert at an age when I could jump for two and a half hours
58:20straight, but it was like so electric and so cool.
58:23And also I was about to graduate and like the whole, it was just.
58:26That is so fun.
58:27One of those memories that you don't forget.
58:29My middle school concert when I was in eighth grade was, um, Lionel Richie, which all night
58:34long was the theme of my prom.
58:36So.
58:37That's fantastic.
58:39I don't think my prom had a theme.
58:41Your prom didn't have a theme?
58:42No, no, no, no.
58:42Wait.
58:42It was like night at the museum because it was at a museum.
58:45Oh, okay.
58:45Well, that's kind of cool.
58:46Yeah, yeah, yeah.
58:47I went to a couple of proms.
58:48I got invited a couple of times.
58:49Of course you did.
58:49Not to toot my own horn.
58:51Of course you did.
58:52Anyways, Mitch, thank you so much for coming.
58:54That was really fun.
58:56All right.
58:56Thank you so much to Mitch Glaser for joining me to talk about the intersection of music
58:59and politics.
59:00And thank you for listening to this week's episode of On The Record.
59:04If you liked today's show, give us a follow on Instagram or on our TikTok page at Billboard
59:08On The Record, where you can find new clips of the show every single week.
59:11We'd also appreciate it if you rated our show on your favorite podcast platform.
59:15All these things help On The Record grow bigger and better than ever.
59:18I'm your host, Kristen Robinson, and tune in next week for another peek behind the curtain
59:22of the music business.
59:23I will see you then.
59:49You