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Alemania, el motor de la Unión Europea, celebra su fiesta de reunificación del 3 de octubre en medio de crisis por su guerra híbrida con Rusia, el auge de la ultraderecha (también prorrusa) y una economía que desde hace dos años no levanta cabeza. Martina Klumpp, embajadora de Alemania en Colombia, explica uno a uno dichos desafíos. Dice que hay indicios influencia rusa a través de desinformación en las últimas elecciones alemanas. Habla también de “incidentes severos” como vuelos de drones rusos sobre instalaciones eléctricas y militares alemanas y hasta ataques cibernéticos a administraciones locales. En cuanto a Colombia, le envía mensaje al presidente Abelardo de la Espriella para dar continuidad a la histórica cooperación binacional.
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00:11Do you remember the fall of the Berlin Wall? Do you have any idea what German reunification was like?
00:17Have you heard about the Cold War, how it ended, and what came after?
00:21Do you have any ideas about the consolidation of the European Union as a regional bloc?
00:26Extremely important in the world? Well, don't go away because we're going to talk about political processes.
00:30developed in a country that is the epicenter of all these stories.
00:33It's called Germany and we're with Ambassador Martina Klump.
00:37who from this moment on accompanies us in El Espectador
00:39and it will help us to reflect some of the concerns you raise
00:43via El Espectador.com. Ambassador, welcome.
00:45Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here.
00:48Ambassador, the fall of the Berlin Wall was in November 1989.
00:51Many of the people watching this video were either very young,
00:56or they hadn't been born yet. There are a lot of people who hadn't been born yet.
00:58Or have they suddenly forgotten? Why don't you remind us specifically?
01:03Why was the fall of the Berlin Wall important for the world?
01:08Well, because it triggered the dismantling of an entire bloc in Eastern Europe.
01:18With the fall of the Berlin Wall, what Churchill had called opened up
01:25The Iron Curtain, I think, is what Churchill called it.
01:28And well, long-standing regimes were dismantled in Romania and Bulgaria.
01:40Europe was reunited, and with it the global impacts that this had.
01:47Imagine everything that came after that you already told us about.
01:50So, where were you in November of '89?
01:55I suspect he was already in the foreign service, right?
01:58Yes, yes, yes.
01:58How did you experience that? Where did it happen? What do you remember about that event?
02:01I was assigned to the capital of Europe, Brussels.
02:04because we had been taken there by a group of young diplomats
02:07to a course with other young diplomats
02:10a week in Brussels, in the European Union.
02:14And so we had made friends with French, Danish, and Spanish people,
02:20Well, it was a very nice encounter.
02:23And it was the last night of the course, a Thursday.
02:26and we had arranged to meet at a nightclub.
02:30Starting at nine o'clock at that place.
02:33And that must have been around nine o'clock.
02:35Then I arrive at such a place and a young Dane greets me.
02:39And congratulations, the wall has opened.
02:42I thought so early and he's already so drunk.
02:46You didn't understand, of course.
02:47Because I couldn't believe it, I couldn't believe it.
02:50We had been keeping an eye on the Polipuró meetings
02:55and the Socialist Party in Berlin and all,
02:59attached to the televisions,
03:05But we didn't imagine this, especially not at that moment.
03:09It was a very surprising moment in that sense.
03:15And was he right, drunk or sober?
03:18He was right.
03:19He wasn't drunk at all.
03:20He was better informed than I was, but he wasn't drunk at all.
03:23He congratulated me.
03:24Imagine, the Berlin Wall was falling, things were moving faster.
03:28Now the process of finally dreaming of a united Germany was truly underway.
03:31Yes, yes.
03:32And as a consequence, the fall of the socialist bloc was already coming, wasn't it?
03:37Yes, yes.
03:38In other words, the Cold War was over.
03:40Yes, and today we are experiencing a resurgence of war in Europe.
03:45that we could not have imagined.
03:47Listen, how curious, ambassador, because of course, from that moment on
03:50Germany is a driving force for the consolidation of the European Union
03:54and the European Union flourishes and grows.
03:57How many countries does the European Union have today?
03:5927.
04:0027, the 27 club.
04:02But right now Germany, which is the engine of Europe,
04:05He is experiencing a very curious political moment.
04:08I would like you to explain to us what is happening in Germany.
04:12which actually held elections recently in Mecklenburg or Pomerania
04:15and in Berlin itself.
04:17What happened and why did it happen?
04:20Well, I think that what happens in Germany, to a certain extent,
04:25This also happens in other countries of the European Union.
04:29And even in the United Kingdom itself.
04:31What do I mean?
04:33I'm referring to populists who have entered the political sphere
04:42with notable simplifications of the realities experienced by the inhabitants,
04:50the Germans, the French, the Spanish,
04:53that we all experienced, we Swedes, who had elections, by the way,
04:57last week too.
04:58There are simplifications; they offer supposedly simple solutions.
05:05that governments in power supposedly ignore
05:13And they find in Germany, in any case, a population disturbed by the difficult economic situation.
05:29We are in the midst of a complete restructuring of our industrial and economic foundations.
05:41from the automotive industry, from the mechanical industry,
05:45from many sectors that are under stress from global competition and need to adapt,
05:57They need to adjust, they need to lay off people, reorient the business strategies of the conglomerates,
06:11corporate strategies, that's the word.
06:16And the situation is that Germany has already gone three years without economic growth.
06:22because of that same pressure, because of the issue of energy prices,
06:29oil prices, after the start of Russia's war against Ukraine,
06:35We had to readjust our energy matrix in Germany,
06:41to move away from importing Russian oil and gas and adapt towards an energy conversion.
06:50All of that costs money, all of that takes up a lot of energy from politicians in power.
06:59The pie is shrinking, without growth, because what can be distributed in a social state
07:06with dimensions of more than 82 million inhabitants, because it is evidently less.
07:14At the same time, the wars in the Middle East and Asia, in Afghanistan,
07:23They have brought refugees and more refugees and ever more refugees to Germany since 2015 onwards.
07:34So, it's a combination of a feeling among the population that we are being taken away.
07:47We need to tighten our belts.
07:50At the same time, they give to others, to the migrants who supposedly give them everything they have to contribute.
07:59It's not true, but that's what people say, that's how it feels.
08:04People feel neglected.
08:08And if I say "people," it's also a matter of city versus countryside.
08:14People who do not live in big cities are increasingly seeing services cut off, removed,
08:24because they are no longer profitable, because the companies that came from regional transport,
08:31So they either leave it or reduce it.
08:33So, yes, it is a feeling of health.
08:37Hospitals are receiving less care because there is less money.
08:41So, it's a feeling that we're doing worse today than we were yesterday.
08:48And so, that's not just, I'm saying, that doesn't only happen in Germany,
08:54That happens in many countries.
08:56And there are extremist groups that take advantage of that.
09:06These are structures that do not offer solutions.
09:13And when I say structures, I was thinking of other countries in Europe,
09:17which is a similar situation according to our analysis.
09:27But in Germany it takes on special significance because it is indeed a far-right party.
09:34which is called Alternative for Germany, Alternative für Deutschland, AfD,
09:39which is only progressing and is already truly positioning itself as a centrist party in the country,
09:53that they are not, but claim that they are.
09:57And so the traditional Democratic parties are being cornered.
10:03So, the situation is complex, Ambassador.
10:05Very complex.
10:06He says, we had a Germany in '89, it's starting to go through a process,
10:11Reunification comes in 1990; there is optimism.
10:14They are beginning to be a driving force, we say, of the European Union,
10:17The Union is growing, more and more countries are joining, becoming part of the Union.
10:25But now there are winds blowing from right to right,
10:31Not only in Germany, you say, but in other countries as well.
10:33But in the case of Germany, in the case of Germany,
10:39These right-wing winds are especially fueled by a movement called AfD.
10:46And that AfD is growing and obtained the majority of votes in Saxony-Anhalt, right?
10:55Yes, yes.
10:55She almost, almost managed to form a government on her own, almost, she was three seats short.
11:00And Germany has a protective tool to prevent the far right from forming a government.
11:11Why don't you tell us what that tool is, and who came up with it?
11:16How does it work and what's happening with that tool today?
11:20Well, more than a tool, I would say—and this is very important to me—it makes very clear,
11:25that the party came in first place in those regional elections in Saxony-Anhalt two weeks ago
11:36and in Mecklenburg, Western Pomerania yesterday,
11:41It doesn't really have repercussions for my country's foreign policy.
11:47That's the guide, the national government, that's the prerogative of the government in Berlin.
11:58What is a government, or what a regional government can be, whatever its political affiliation,
12:04These are issues of education in this state, issues of policing, and internal order in the state.
12:14And indirectly influence national policy through the second chamber of the Bundesrat.
12:25But when it comes to foreign policy, they have no room for influence.
12:32Point number two, the states where voting has taken place and where the party has reached that first place in
12:42the elections,
12:43They are states with very small populations.
12:48We are talking about a little over two million inhabitants.
12:51We are talking about an electorate of one million seven hundred thousand in Saxony-Anhalt
12:59and approximately the same figure in Mecklenburg yesterday.
13:02And that's why we're talking about 43.something percent in Saxony
13:09and 38 percent in Mecklenburg.
13:13What I'm getting at is that half a million people in Saxony, half a million out of a total of 82 million.
13:22population.
13:23So we need to put it into perspective.
13:25I don't mean to say that it isn't a very serious sign,
13:30I don't mean to say that we can carry on as if that didn't happen,
13:35But I want to put it in its proper perspective.
13:37That's important.
13:39And the party with the most votes doesn't necessarily have to form a government.
13:45because if they don't obtain an absolute majority,
13:51then they have to form a coalition,
13:55as also happened here after the elections.
13:59If a government is formed, it will take the lead.
14:07How do you say it in English? I don't know the word in Spanish right now.
14:11But he is looking for partners for his government program.
14:15And since this party's government program is so extremist,
14:20Parties across the democratic spectrum refuse to support and cooperate.
14:28So they do have that victory at the polls,
14:32But they are left empty-handed because they cannot put it into political practice.
14:37That's what happens in Germany in real life.
14:40Then that party can win in votes,
14:42But until he has a majority of seats to secure the government on his own,
14:48It won't be possible because nobody wants to join.
14:51Who came up with the idea that they would never join forces with an extremist party?
14:55right
14:56to form a coalition and allow the far right to enter the government in Germany?
15:00That's not a design that someone just came up with.
15:05It's a matter of convictions.
15:08to have the parties' programs based on the constitution of our country.
15:17a conviction and a clear commitment to our constitution, the basic law.
15:28And if that party doesn't comply,
15:31The other parties say that we are not going to cooperate with them.
15:35It's as simple as this.
15:36So it's not that someone designed it to prevent them from coming to power,
15:43but rather it is a matter of democratic roots.
15:47It's a custom, isn't it?
15:48The seat belt is like...
15:50Well, those are decisions that were made.
15:54The seat belt, as you call it,
15:56They are deliberate decisions made on purpose,
16:03especially from the conservative party, the CDU,
16:08because they want to make it very clear what the party's position is
16:15It is the non-cooperation with the AFD.
16:19And the other political parties are,
16:23because their positions and programs are further apart.
16:29It's a historic decision for Germany as well, for the parties, then.
16:32Yes, exactly.
16:32Never again...
16:33No far right in power.
16:34Exact.
16:35Not far right.
16:35It is about remembering a matter of national memory.
16:39And why does AFD cause so much fear in some sectors?
16:44What is it about that party?
16:45Or why do they call him far-right?
16:49Well, because it has policies and requirements and a programmatic plan.
16:58anti-immigration, anti-support for Ukraine, for example,
17:05anti-because our country's energy policy,
17:11who are extremists.
17:13They're pro-Russian, you'd say, wouldn't you?
17:16Sure, sure.
17:17Their leaders were now constantly traveling to Russia...
17:20Yes, yes.
17:21During election season and all.
17:22Also during election season, and well, we have
17:27indications that there was Russian influence in those elections as well
17:33through disinformation, through multiple media strategies, let's say,
17:40and disinformation campaigns.
17:44So, they benefit a lot from this.
17:47Are you saying that in 2026, in September 2026?
17:50Yeah.
17:50Are there any signs?
17:51Well, there have been signs for some time, but misinformation is here, in Germany too.
18:02And not just misinformation.
18:05We've had some very serious security incidents, not only cyber-related, but also what happened at the airport of
18:22Leipzig six weeks ago,
18:23which was an attempted attack with an armed drone carrying explosives, several drones armed with explosives.
18:34And we, therefore, with that, have for the first time openly acknowledged that we are in a situation of aggression from
18:45part of Russia to our own country, within our own country.
18:51And what was the outcome of that story, by the way?
18:53I remember the headline of the ad, but what ever happened to it?
18:57That story ended with gathering information until the attack could be clearly and unequivocally attributed.
19:06And then agreed measures were taken within NATO with our partners, because Germany is not the only country
19:13who experiences those situations.
19:16Our closest neighbors to the conflict zone, those closest to Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine, experience it very often.
19:26And so it is an issue that was discussed with our partners in NATO.
19:31And he went so far as to close the Russian consulate in Bonn, and to close a Russian institute and house in Berlin, which had been serving many people.
19:47years there,
19:48But we had already made the decision to expel those who were working there as well.
19:58Sanctions against ships that continue to transport crude oil; ships in very poor condition
20:08and that they do not travel with all the necessary declarations, because they are violating sanctions.
20:17And then review again the list of sanctions against Russian individuals who may have access to Germany.
20:23So yes, they have been very specific measures, but very focused.
20:28And there has been a response to this.
20:31Retaliation?
20:33The consulate in St. Petersburg was closed, and the Goethe Institute was closed; we also have one here in Bogotá.
20:41It is an institute for exchange with the civil society of the country where it is located, not for spying.
20:51but to have that kind of, how do you say, exchange, exactly, exactly,
21:05and several other institutes in other countries, in other cities of Russia, all expelled.
21:12The issue with Russia is complex then.
21:14Complex.
21:15With a right-wing political party growing, ultra-growing, with the problem of the war in Ukraine, with Russia.
21:24Yes, yes, yes.
21:25You have a whole cocktail of situations that...
21:30Complex.
21:31Yes, they are complex.
21:32Ambassador.
21:33And then this AFD grows, we already said that it grew in votes, but we said that it does not form a government.
21:40But there may still be consequences for the chancellor now.
21:43I saw some media outlets reporting adverse results for the governing coalition.
21:50These elections that we just mentioned could create pressure against Chancellor Mertz
21:57that suddenly force him to make decisions.
22:00I don't know, some are saying they're stepping down from their positions.
22:02Do you believe in that or not?
22:03No, the chancellor yesterday, 15 minutes after closing the shops in Berlin and Mecklenburg
22:12He appeared before the press and made it very clear that he takes note that they are aware of that broth.
22:24discontent
22:25and a lack of support for his party, his government, and himself personally.
22:34He accepts it, but for him—and he's right about that—the reforms that have been discussed
22:46And at the government level, the coalitions that have already been designed must be implemented, no matter what.
22:56And the results of those elections will have to be taken into account, so we'll see...
23:02what conclusions and adjustments can be reached.
23:08But he is determined and very firm in the need to reform our country, and he is right.
23:21And he says that reforms are the antidote to poison—he says, he uses that word, to poison.
23:26of the...
23:27Yes, they are the way in which that said to make our country fit,
23:38to enable our country to face international competitions,
23:43The hybrid war, as I dare to call it, that we are experiencing demands to arm ourselves and contribute and reinforce the
24:00NATO and European defense.
24:03Well, for that to happen, long-standing policies have to be adjusted and reformed somewhere in order to be able to govern.
24:13and project this forward.
24:17Please clarify one thing for me. What do you mean by hybrid warfare?
24:20Hybrid warfare is an undeclared war. It's a war where ships cross without GPS enabled and without any clear explanation of their position.
24:31his papers or anything.
24:33They cross the Baltic Sea and lay submarine cables that connect Finland with Estonia or Sweden with Germany.
24:44And that has happened.
24:45Ships from where? Whose Russians are they?
24:48Yes, yes. That's an indication of hybrid warfare.
24:52Drone flights over our electricity facilities, military installations, etc., etc.
25:04Cyberattacks on local administrations that suddenly appear overnight
25:13because he no longer has access to his data.
25:19So we call that hybrid warfare.
25:22It is an undeclared war, but one that affects our security.
25:28Ambassador, if Germany is one of the most powerful countries in the world, one of the largest economies, etc.
25:36And Germany says this, which is what people would ask about.
25:42So, who can we turn to?
25:43The major multilateral organizations.
25:45How do you view the stance, action, or inaction of multilateral organizations on this issue you're telling us about?
25:53Is it that serious?
25:53Well, our primary response is to prepare ourselves, to try to protect ourselves internally with the measures at our disposal.
26:08and not go to supranational multilateral bodies because there are many problems there, including our own.
26:22We have to resolve this ourselves in the first instance.
26:25and with our partners, the NATO countries, the neighbors bordering Russia and Belarus, but also with
26:41Brussels, with France, within our North Atlantic alliance
26:47where we are all facing that issue to a greater or lesser degree and we share that analysis.
26:57Did people in Germany imagine that 38 years later they would be in this situation with Russia?
27:04No, of course not.
27:06But we must also take into account that there is a division regarding the war in Ukraine, I hinted at that.
27:12and the government's support for Ukraine, because there is a clear separation between the support for that position and
27:22government if one looks at the map of the country.
27:24In East Germany, due to history, education, academic training, and the socialization of the population,
27:37Well, at least the one before '89, but these are perhaps trends that persist.
27:46There is much less acceptance in East Germany for that government policy than in Occitan Germany, much less.
27:53And that's something the AFD also takes advantage of.
28:00And that's why you also say that in the other states the situation won't be measured the same way, because there are different [states/regions].
28:05population.
28:06There is a different population, there are different socioeconomic realities, there is a much larger population,
28:14There isn't that much difference between city and countryside.
28:19It exists throughout the country, but not so much in a highly populated state like the one where
28:25I'm coming,
28:26which is Baden-Württemberg, which is super, super populated.
28:29One leaves one town and enters the next.
28:31And in Saxony and Annals, in Mecklenburg, they are vast territories with little population.
28:41There has also been migration from these states, from all five federal states,
28:48to the cities, in the states themselves, and to West Germany.
28:53But the field is quite neglected.
28:57Quite.
28:58Quite.
28:58And if one examines the support now in Mecklenburg, yesterday, the greatest support for the AFD came from the countryside.
29:12Crystal clear.
29:12But then we have to look at the field, right?
29:14What's happening to the countryside?
29:16Yes, we need to see how not to abandon the people who do have a demand for services.
29:24If you have a medical emergency, you must go to a hospital and you cannot say,
29:30Well, we had to do it because there's no money.
29:32But putting all this together is what we call the reform package.
29:38It's difficult.
29:39And do you know what I find most difficult about all of that?
29:42That coincides with the theme of the economic crisis, of three years without growth.
29:48Because everyone looked to German companies, the German automotive industry, as the benchmark.
29:53And now that industry is waging its own battle with China to avoid losing markets.
29:59Exactly, exactly.
29:59They're facing a complex situation everywhere, aren't they?
30:03Very complex, very complex.
30:06We wish you luck.
30:07I think they'll do well.
30:09Germany will do well.
30:10Germany is a great country.
30:11Yes, we have all the conditions to make that happen.
30:16I don't want to, I want to resist that catastrophic scenario.
30:24Clearly, clearly.
30:26And how are the elections shaping up?
30:27Well, 2029 is still a long way off, isn't it?
30:29For the big elections, the national ones.
30:33Meanwhile, the ambassador will continue working.
30:36And you who are here, for example, in Colombia, seeing your country, everything that is happening in your country,
30:40But apart from all that, you're looking at Colombia here.
30:42How do you see the situation in this country?
30:44The one from Colombia.
30:45In Colombia, the government is taking steps after the earthquake shock.
30:53Well, we are waiting, and we are very willing to collaborate in the areas where we are invited to participate.
31:05to collaboration.
31:07I believe there are some in areas of territorial development, health, energy, and other areas.
31:17of the reconstruction itself,
31:20in terms of closing the gap between the haves and the have-nots.
31:25We have a huge offer, so I'm very willing. I offer our hand to the government here, so they can reach out to us and...
31:35I think we can collaborate very, very well.
31:38Have you spoken with high-ranking officials?
31:42Some.
31:42With some?
31:43Some.
31:43But that's the case, ambassador.
31:46Yes, yes, yes, because we understand that after the earthquake, the priority has been what it was.
31:54Then I was away for a few weeks, so now I'm back and inviting everyone.
32:00And if one wanted to say, for example, if the national government is looking into it, you would say, what are the...?
32:04Germany has collaborated with Colombia for many years on extremely varied issues.
32:11Today, what are Germany's priorities in a country like Colombia?
32:16I believe we face the same challenge in terms of integrating abandoned areas, especially here, obviously.
32:31in Germany,
32:33but to integrate the country and find a national narrative.
32:39That's like the big challenge.
32:41Well, there's a lot of work to be done on that then, and Germany's willingness is evident once again.
32:46German Ambassador Martina Klopp, currently in an interview with El Espectador
32:50to continue helping the country, right?
32:52Yes, of course.
32:53Ambassador, we would like to wish you very happy holidays.
32:58Commemorating the wall, commemorating Reunification Day, getting better and better.
33:03And well, problems are supposed to exist in one country and in another; there are problems everywhere.
33:06There are problems everywhere, exactly.
33:09But we must continue working.
33:10They need to be resolved.
33:11Ambassador, thank you very much.
33:13And thank you for being with us.
33:13No, thank you to the viewer.
33:16Yes, ma'am, come back whenever you like.
33:18Thank you for joining us.
33:19We will be back soon with new interesting personalities in El Espectador.
33:22Thank you!
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