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‘There is no immediate threat to NATO territory,’ Secretary General Rutte tells Euronews
NATO chief Mark Rutte told Euronews there is no immediate threat to the alliance and he does not take Russia's Kaliningrad nuclear warning seriously, saying Moscow is trying to distract from its struggles in Ukraine.
READ MORE : http://www.euronews.com/2026/09/30/there-is-no-immediate-threat-to-nato-territory-natos-rutte-tells-euronews
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NATO chief Mark Rutte told Euronews there is no immediate threat to the alliance and he does not take Russia's Kaliningrad nuclear warning seriously, saying Moscow is trying to distract from its struggles in Ukraine.
READ MORE : http://www.euronews.com/2026/09/30/there-is-no-immediate-threat-to-nato-territory-natos-rutte-tells-euronews
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NewsTranscript
00:07Thank you very much, there's been a lot of questions and I'm sure the room is full now.
00:15So thank you very much, there's a lot of interest and let's get straight into it Secretary General.
00:20Can you confirm that Russia sent a letter to NATO that said if the Russian Federation
00:26its territory including Kaliningrad comes under any threat they will resort to the full arsenal
00:32which includes also nuclear weapons in a letter. They use the term nuclear weapons in a letter.
00:37Well I'm not at liberty to disclose what they sent us but this is what they reported more or less
00:42to the media.
00:42So let me just refer to what the Russians reported to the media and leave it at that.
00:47That's what we did, we reacted and basically what we said is hey listen we are a defensive alliance
00:53and stop the nuclear threats, this is absolutely not called for and not helpful and particularly stop the war in
01:03Ukraine
01:03which is unprovoked war of aggression against Ukraine. So we have been clear in our reaction which was short and
01:08concise
01:09but what was exactly in the Russian letter I think it's up to them to disclose.
01:12To disclose it but if you sent a response it's because they sent you a letter in the first place.
01:17If we assume that the media does a good job this letter did say, the Russian Federation said
01:21if any of our interest in the Russian Federation territory which also includes Kaliningrad is threatened in any way
01:29we will use all of our capabilities including nuclear weapons.
01:33Is there a threat, an escalation that implies the risk of nuclear weapons being employed against the Baltics is now
01:40real?
01:40No, it's not. Putin knows that he can never win from NATO so I don't take this that serious.
01:48But of course we had to reply and make clear to him that NATO is a defensive alliance as I
01:53said
01:53and stop the war in Ukraine and stop the nuclear threats because it's not helpful
01:57and NATO is so much stronger than Russia is so there's no way they can ever beat us.
02:02The Prime Minister of Bulgaria was here, we did an interview just an hour ago and he said you have
02:08and everyone here in this room has to be clear that you are dealing with a country that has nuclear
02:14capabilities.
02:15It is a nuclear armed country. I presume Bulgaria is a NATO country probably had seen that letter in their
02:20response too.
02:21There's a lot of frenzy around the situation in the Baltics and a security scenario that has or seems to
02:26have deteriorated over the past three weeks.
02:29What are the scenarios you're preparing for? Because something seems to have changed beyond language.
02:33Listen, let's zoom out a little bit. What's happening? 43,000 Russians killed or seriously wounded a month now in
02:40Ukraine.
02:41Ukraine holding the front line, doing much better than only a half year or a year ago, striking deep inside
02:46Russia.
02:48Allies supporting Ukraine in terms of weapons delivery, etc.
02:52So this is the picture. So Putin is not winning this. So let's assume that he is a bit worried
02:58and a bit rattled.
03:00And I think the best way to deal with this is to have a little bit of calm here.
03:06On the NATO side we can allow a bit of calm but also a bit of making sure we continue
03:11with what we are doing.
03:12So the carry on part, which is investing in our defense and we are doing it. I see the Chief
03:17of Defense of the Netherlands here.
03:19They are massively stepping up defense spending in the Netherlands and the same for Germany and basically for the whole
03:24of NATO territory.
03:25Equalizing with the United States, not only because we have to equalize with the United States, but because we need
03:31all these capabilities.
03:32Because Russia clearly has a strong military and we want to stay ahead.
03:36But most important for now is to keep the support for Ukraine going.
03:40What Putin tries to do, don't forget, by these letters and these hybrid gray zone activities, is he tries to
03:49divide us and lose the focus on Ukraine.
03:52We will not. So every hybrid whatever happens in Europe will be met with more support for Ukraine, not less
04:00support for Ukraine.
04:00That's the message. Come, carry on, keep the support for Ukraine going. That's how we deal with this.
04:05We'll talk about Ukraine in a second, but just to understand this clearly because over the past three weeks,
04:12ever since the CIA boss went over to Moscow and that was reported, there has been this real francy around
04:17whether or not something is in the making,
04:20could happen not imminently, but that now moves away from Ukraine into an NATO country.
04:24I was in Riga two weeks ago. You could feel there's a sort of nervousness that I had not detected
04:30previously in your own assessment.
04:32And you have one of the best intelligence in the world.
04:34Is the risk assessment really truly the same it was three weeks, three months ago, a year ago?
04:39Yes. And let's not forget if the Russians want to do something against Finland or one of the Baltic nations
04:46or Poland or whichever country in NATO,
04:48we will see a buildup. And let me, if you don't believe me, let's listen to the Latvian and Estonian
04:55politicians.
04:56They are saying, hey, we will be the first to call you if we think there is a serious threat
05:00against, for example, Estonia or Latvia.
05:02But they have to say it. In the meantime, their message is, please stop being so worried.
05:08We have prepared for this. We have planned for this. And this is true for the whole of NATO.
05:12We will defend every inch of NATO territory, every square kilometer, square mile.
05:17There's no doubt. Putin knows this. So that threat is not there.
05:21And if anything happens, we are ready to counter it. We will always be defensive.
05:26But if necessary, of course, we will defend ourselves. But the most important thing is this is all happening because
05:31he is not, it's not going well for him in Ukraine.
05:34He wants to divide us. He wants us to lose the attention when it comes to Ukraine, keep the support
05:39going.
05:39And let me also quote Alex Sikorsky, the foreign minister of Poland, who said for every hybrid threat to Poland,
05:47we will do more for Ukraine instead of less for Ukraine.
05:50That's the best reaction, by the way, when it comes to how to counter hybrid gray zone threats to NATO
05:56territory.
05:56You say, if you don't believe me, let's just listen to the Baltic politicians. They are politicians. They have to
06:02say there is no imminent risk.
06:04It is politics and it's also damaging the business environment. I was told that clearly in Riga by a number
06:09of officials.
06:09This conversation is not good for investment. But the question, and this is why I want to insist to you,
06:14is because the word of NATO really matters.
06:16Should we just take away from this conversation that regardless of the letters, the trip of a CIA, top officer
06:22or not, nothing has changed.
06:25And even if Russia was planning to do something, you are prepared for it. And this is NATO territory. We'll
06:30be protected.
06:30There is no imminent threat to NATO territory. If there is a built up, we will see it and we
06:37will deal with it.
06:37If anything happens otherwise, we will also deal with it. Because we have prepared and trained for this. We have
06:43a single command structure.
06:44We have 32 allies working together. We have a fantastic Supreme Allied Commander in Alexis Krinkovich, the American general.
06:51So we are in perfect shape, both when it comes to the hybrid and when it comes to whatever might
06:58happen more.
07:00And we have to be clear-eyed. Russia is not doing well in Ukraine. And this is all about that.
07:07And every minute we spend on this is exactly what Putin loves us to do, being rattled and talking about,
07:13oh, what's happening here? What's happening there?
07:15Calm. We are stronger. Carry on. Keep on investing. And most of us, most of all, make sure that Ukraine
07:22has what it needs to stay in the fight.
07:24They need to support, particularly air defense, but also all the other stuff they can get.
07:28Let's talk about Ukraine now. How do you see things evolving in the next few months?
07:33We had a report this morning from our correspondent there. She said, and she's been there now for five days
07:37straight, it is worse than at any other point this year so far.
07:41There's a real concern that the air defense is, I don't want to say depleted, but close to.
07:46Is it as bad as it sounds?
07:48No, it's much better.
07:49Do we get to winter in a better shape?
07:50No, it's much better. The problem, yes, is with the pummeling of cities by the Russians. That's true.
07:55So they are hitting hard at the infrastructure, critical energy infrastructure at cities.
08:01So that's taking place. And there is a lack of interceptors.
08:05And that means that the Europeans and the Americans, we are all working on junction to get as much as
08:10possible to Ukraine to make sure that they can defend themselves.
08:13But when it comes to the front line, as I said, look at Donetsk, Slovyansk, Kramatorsk, these key cities.
08:21The Ukrainians are doing much better now than only a half year or a year ago.
08:24Look at what they are doing in striking deep inside Russia and taking out some of the key logistical systems
08:31in Russia when it comes to the energy infrastructure,
08:33when it comes to their systems of warehouses, etc. So Ukraine is doing fine.
08:40But it is absolutely true an issue when it comes to big cities and energy infrastructure and logistics under threat.
08:50And there we can help as Europeans and Americans and Canadians to make sure that they have what they need.
08:55How can we accelerate or how can that process be accelerated?
08:57Because the Ukrainians would say we want it and the NATO summit, in theory, should have brought that to fruition
09:03to get the licenses to be able to do the patriots.
09:07On the licenses, the discussion is going on.
09:10But that won't help them in the short term because it takes quite some time if you have the licenses
09:14to build these missiles.
09:15So that's for the U.S. and Ukraine to discuss.
09:18Is that moving along? Because there's been a lot of contradiction.
09:20It's moving along, but this is not – I'm not involved in that.
09:23We track that. We trace that.
09:24But that is particularly between the U.S., which has these companies on its territory, which is building the patriot
09:32systems.
09:32We know that in Germany, when it comes to PAK-2s, we now see massive production sites being built between
09:41MBDA and Ration to RTX to build PAK-2 interceptors in Germany.
09:47So all of this is happening.
09:48But this will not help Ukraine in the short term.
09:51For next winter and for next coming weeks and months, they simply need more interceptors.
09:55Please honor whatever you can still give them.
09:58It's saving lives.
10:00And also our Supreme Allied Commander is saying to those European countries still having these patriots interceptors,
10:06whatever you can give, please do, because it is crucial now to keep Ukraine strong.
10:11But Ukraine is not doing worse than some time ago.
10:15They are doing better because the front line and striking deep inside Russia, they are doing much better than only
10:19half a year ago.
10:20You mentioned, certainly when it comes to the Europeans, that if you have any in stock, you should send them
10:25now.
10:26You didn't name the countries, but we've seen clearly in Brussels there's been ongoing pressure on Spain and Greece in
10:31particular.
10:32Is this now the time to say whatever you have, really send it now?
10:35No.
10:35There is no imminent threat on the southern flank?
10:37That's not how it works, because we have to make sure, of course, that we have enough also to protect
10:40ourselves.
10:41But that's not up to me.
10:42That's the Chief of Defense, the Supreme Allied Commander, assessing what are the stockpiles we need in NATO territory.
10:48And based on that assessment, what can we still give to Ukraine?
10:51There is still room for that.
10:53But, hey, that's not up to me to say, hey, send everything.
10:56That's not my message.
10:57How much of a drag is the war in Iran on Ukraine?
11:01Because you could argue they feel collateral damage out of the situation.
11:04It's a war that, in theory, as we understood, the President of the U.S. said over the summer was
11:07done.
11:08Clearly it's not done.
11:09The oil is not coming out.
11:10And now there's also energy pressure feeding into this conversation.
11:13How much of a problem is the war in Iran when it comes to the situation in Ukraine?
11:16Yeah, but let's also assess, and here we might always, not all of us agree, that it was only the
11:21United States which was capable of taking out the nuclear capability of Iran, which was a threat potentially soon, not
11:29only for Israel in the Middle East, but also for us here.
11:31You really believe that?
11:32In Brussels.
11:33I absolutely believe that, yes.
11:34So the American president taking out that threat, degrading that capability is crucial.
11:39And, of course, everywhere also has its downsides.
11:42That's clear.
11:43But I'm looking at the upsides here.
11:45And, by the way, with all the extra investments European countries are now making in their defense, this 3.5
11:52% leading to the 5% overall defense spending, this will lead to a situation where, in the future, this
11:57stronger Europe and a stronger NATO, where the Europeans will be able to take care of their backyard themselves.
12:02It should be us doing this, not the Americans.
12:04Why are the Americans doing it, taking out the Iranians, Iranian nuclear capability?
12:09Because we can't.
12:10But in the future, we have to make sure that, as Europeans, we can do this ourselves.
12:14It is anyway a bit strange that, to protect ourselves here in Europe from 140 million Russians, 600 million people
12:22living in NATO territory in Europe, that we need a country which is six to eight hours flight from here,
12:27with 340 million people to defend ourselves against the Russians.
12:30We should be able to do that ourselves.
12:32That's exactly what we are working on.
12:35Still the U.S. being involved, not only in the nuclear sense, but also in the conventional sense, but the
12:40Europeans taking much, much more responsibility for the defense of this part of NATO.
12:45The flip side, some would argue, and again, going back to the knock-on effect on Ukraine, some would say,
12:49the war in Iran, it's not clear how this answer, whether there's a strategy to do it, and it is
12:55having an impact on Ukraine directly, because the president of the U.S. is now saying, do not hit the
13:00refineries, because I don't want to see oil prices going up.
13:03It is having a knock-on effect, so how can you undo this, this dynamic?
13:07I'm not going to comment on everything which is said by…
13:10But do you worry about the ramifications and the energy market?
13:12I think there are always downsides.
13:13There are always downsides when war breaks out, that's clear.
13:16But, hey, let's face it.
13:18Europe was not able to take out the nuclear capability of Iran.
13:20We couldn't.
13:21We didn't have the capabilities.
13:22In 10 years, we can, and we should.
13:24It should not be the Americans doing it.
13:26It should us be doing it.
13:27It should also us be taking care of the Houthis in the Red Sea, and not the Americans.
13:31But, hey, of course, there are always ramifications, but the ramifications start from a premise that it is good that
13:37the Americans did this.
13:38And I'm one believing that it was absolutely essential for the Americans to take on Iran.
13:43And do you believe the vast majority of the alliance agrees with your assessment?
13:47No, I don't think so, but that doesn't care.
13:49I don't care.
13:50You asked me on my opinion.
13:53To that point, at this stage, do you see a NATO that is together in its collective decision-making?
14:00Or actually, you would argue there are real tensions because the interests are moving in different ways?
14:05Meaning, for the Europeans, they believe Iran has had a negative implication on Ukraine.
14:09And we've seen it this morning.
14:11A lot of these companies present here, they say NATO pushes forward American contracts, and we want to build our
14:18own industry.
14:19European companies should go first.
14:20No, we are talking about Iran, but Iran last time…
14:23I'm saying two points of tension.
14:24There are both.
14:25No, no, no.
14:25Iran is outside NATO territory.
14:27So, let's be honest.
14:28NATO is focused on the Euro-Atlantic.
14:29And when it comes to the Euro-Atlantic and defending ourselves against Russia, which is our long-term threat, we
14:34are totally on one page.
14:36The US, Canada, the 30 NATO allies in Europe.
14:40There's no point.
14:40No, we were discussing Iran.
14:42And hey, you're allowed to have your differences of opinion when it comes to Iran.
14:45By the way, the Europeans are also totally in agreement that the freedom of navigation has to be restored, both
14:53in the Strait of Hormuz and in the Red Sea.
14:55And we see now increasingly European countries being active there.
14:58Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia helping out with demining in the Strait of Hormuz.
15:04This is even before this so-called permissive environment will emerge hopefully in the future.
15:10So, already they are there.
15:12Some other European countries are active there more discreetly, helping out with demining.
15:17Why?
15:17Because the US is great, but the US lacks two capabilities.
15:20One is icebreakers.
15:22You don't need them in the Strait of Hormuz.
15:24And demining capacity, which the Europeans have in ample supply.
15:28So, it's very good that Europeans are more and more helping.
15:30And also, 5,000 American planes took off from European bases since the end of February in support of Epic
15:37Fury.
15:38So, again, Europe being one big power protection platform for the United States.
15:42So, you're saying, because publicly, let's be honest, the war is not popular in Europe.
15:46We've seen a number of European leaders who come out of it very openly saying it was a bad idea.
15:51And my population doesn't support it.
15:53Would you say there's an element of performative...
15:56Well, they're just politicians.
15:58There's an element of I disagree, but actually I'm providing much more support than I say in public.
16:02No, no, I take all those comments very seriously.
16:04But what I'm telling you is that the nuclear capability of Iran, in my assessment, is a direct threat.
16:10Not only to the Middle East, but also to Europe.
16:11That it was only the United States which was able to degrade it.
16:15Yes, when you have a war like this, that will have also negative consequences.
16:18But you have to take them into account.
16:21And Europe is now stepping up when it comes to the Strait of Hormuz.
16:25It was already stepping up when it came to making sure that the U.S. could make use of its
16:31infrastructure and facilities in Europe in support of Epic Fury.
16:34And this is allies, this is not NATO, because NATO is not active in Iran.
16:39I mean, it's outside NATO territory.
16:41But this is allies working together, making sure that we have great atmospheres within the Alliance,
16:48but also making sure that we are there for each other when necessary.
16:51How is the atmosphere in the Alliance at this point?
16:54It's great.
16:55It's the best it has ever been, because you have now a Europe which is taking responsibility for its own
17:00defense.
17:01President Trump loves NATO.
17:03He only hated one element, which was the fact that we were not spending enough.
17:07And multiple other things.
17:08He also said he had been at the NATO summit.
17:10He was not very happy going into the NATO summit, then came out happy out of it.
17:14But he said he was not happy at his NATO summits and his NATO allies because of Iran.
17:18When I speak with President Trump, he's totally clear-eyed why NATO is crucial also for the United States.
17:24Jonas Sture, the Norwegian Prime Minister, showing him the map of these nuclear submarines of Russia, which are a threat
17:31not to Norway.
17:32They are a threat to the United States.
17:34They might end up at the shores of the United States if we as NATO would not block them.
17:39So NATO, and this is just one example, is not only there to protect Europe.
17:43It is also there to protect Canada.
17:45It's there to protect the United States.
17:47I was just last week with Matt Whitaker.
17:50He was just here also presenting.
17:52He is the ambassador, fantastic ambassador of the U.S. to NATO.
17:55We were both visiting his home state, Iowa.
17:58So I brought this message to the American Midwest.
18:00I will continue doing that also to discuss with the American people that NATO is not only there for historical
18:07reasons for the U.S. to stay involved in Europe after the Second World War,
18:10but also to make sure that the U.S. mainland stays safe and therefore NATO is crucial.
18:16And finally, in the U.S., in all the senior circles, in the Pentagon, in the State and in the
18:22White House, there is widespread agreement that if China would move against the first island chain,
18:28that there is no doubt that at the same moment Putin will keep us busy here.
18:33And then we need a stronger European element in NATO.
18:37This is NATO 3.0, a stronger Europe and a stronger NATO, to make sure that the U.S. doesn't
18:42have to spread its resources too thinly.
18:45And just a final point on this, the reason why I ask how is the mood is because right now
18:49we see competing priorities.
18:51The U.S. is sending this message, do not hit the refineries because it's affecting the energy market.
18:55What I detect from the European leadership is that they are okay with Ukraine hitting deeply into Russia because that
19:01is the moneymaker for Russia.
19:02As a NATO Secretary General, when you look at both scenarios, do you say, at this point, I'd rather they
19:07continue just hitting Russia deeply, even if it comes with ramifications in the energy market?
19:11I look at another scenario.
19:12It's the best balance.
19:13I look at another fact.
19:14And the fact is that when it comes to the war in Ukraine, there is only one person who can
19:18bring it to an end.
19:19And that person is not living in Europe.
19:21That person is living in the White House.
19:22And the American President is the only one.
19:24You really believe that?
19:25Yes, I really believe this.
19:26He was the only one who could break the deadlock with Putin.
19:28He did.
19:28He started a dialogue.
19:29He sent some of his senior advisors to work diligently with the Russians and the Ukrainians to bring this war
19:36to an end.
19:37So far, it has not been successful.
19:38But they are working on this.
19:40I commend them for that.
19:41And that's what we need to do.
19:43But for Ukraine to enter into peace talks, we collectively with the United States and Canada and the Europeans have
19:49to make sure they are as strong as possible.
19:51And we need to bring this war to an outcome where Ukraine is sovereign, can defend itself, is viable, and
19:57can continue as an independent nation.
19:59And in the red politic, I'm pretty sure 99.9% of everyone here would say President Trump will have
20:04to be if there's any sort of peace at that table.
20:07But I want to ask you, the ceasefire he promised did not happen.
20:09The energy ceasefire is not happening either.
20:11In your mind, is there really now any path in which we see from now until the winter any sort
20:16of mediated ceasefire of any way or actually this is just war?
20:20Of course, we all hope for it.
20:21I know, and I spoke with some of the senior American people involved in this last week in New York.
20:26They are working day in, day out to get it done.
20:28I support them wherever I can.
20:30I know that the whole European leadership is behind this effort because we all want this war to end.
20:37But hey, you need two to tango.
20:39So far, it doesn't seem that Vladimir Vladimir Putin is willing to tango when it comes to a peace deal.
20:46And as long as he is not making himself available for that, it is a bit difficult.
20:50But hey, we always know that these wars end with a peace deal.
20:54And we always know you need negotiators.
20:56And you need somebody with clout who can do that.
20:59And the American president breaking the deadlock with Putin when he came into office I think was essential.
21:05And we can then criticize that it has not been done.
21:08No, I mean, this is very difficult.
21:09It takes time.
21:10But over time, I'm sure that will be successful.
21:12I don't know whether it will be before winter.
21:15At the moment, we don't see Putin willing, it seems, to engage.
21:19When you look at NATO, you also accomplish the 5%.
21:21And then, of course, there's the famous Trump trillion.
21:24Some dispute that it's an effective trillion, but the president does say we will get to the 1 trillion.
21:29What we've seen this morning here is there is a lot of cash and money to be put forward, but
21:34there are differences in terms of what do we buy.
21:37And the European industry would say there needs to be a clear European preference.
21:41This is taxpayer money.
21:43The U.S. ambassador today said it is clear the Europeans are creating instruments that will limit U.S. abilities
21:49to play in these contracts.
21:50In your mind, do you go, as long as you pay and you're a NATO member, you buy what you
21:54want?
21:55First of all, it's more than one trillion.
21:57But then, on the question you ask, the problem is not, do you buy in Europe or do you buy
22:04in the United States?
22:05The problem is, can you buy?
22:07The money is there, but the defense industrial base in Europe is underdeveloped.
22:11It is not producing enough.
22:13Too many factories are still not working full-time, are not churning out their products 24-7.
22:18But there is no bias for a manufacturer.
22:20No, no, the same is true for the United States.
22:22Also, the United States needs to ramp up its output.
22:24This is exactly what Trump tries to do.
22:26It's the quadrupling of the five big primes in the U.S., et cetera.
22:29So the problem is not, if only we had the luxury of this discussing buy European or buy American.
22:34No, I would say buy.
22:37And generally speaking, being a free market politician, I think it's always better if you have these free markets functioning
22:45as open and independent as possible.
22:49But at the moment, I think it is a discussion of luxury whether you buy European or American, because we
22:53cannot buy on both sides.
22:55There is not enough production, not in Europe, not in the United States, to fulfill all the demand signals now.
23:01So this is my message to industry.
23:03Invest.
23:04You know there is a long-term demand.
23:06There is a long-term commitment to spend so much more.
23:08You know that 30% approximately of all the defense spending is spent in the industrial base.
23:14So develop the industrial base.
23:16Make sure we have the latest innovations there.
23:18And we know that European companies, Thales, investing in the U.S., U.S. companies investing in Europe.
23:23It is a transatlantic defense industrial base.
23:26It is working as one.
23:27And that's exactly what it should be.
23:28The only problem is it has to produce much more than it is doing at the moment.
23:32The good news is industry is ramping up.
23:35And we had that in Ankara with the 50 billion extra defense industrial contracts being closed there and the 40
23:43billion when it comes to the drone edge.
23:45So that these were huge announcements which will also help to accelerate the investments in the defense industrial base.
23:52So made in Europe is a Brussels debate.
23:54It exists in the Brussels circles.
23:55If only you have the luxury to have that debate.
23:58At the moment the problem is we do not produce enough.
24:00Look now at Ukraine.
24:01So we have the Astro 30, the SEMTs from Italy and France.
24:05Fantastic systems.
24:06We have the Patriot system from the U.S.
24:08Both of them do not produce enough.
24:10This is just one example.
24:11If only France and Italy would be able to really ramp up the production of SEMTs and Astro 30s.
24:16If only Reyes and Lockheed Martin would be able to quadruple, as the President has requested, as soon as possible,
24:22the production of PEC3 interceptors for Patriot systems.
24:25Then we would be in good shape.
24:26And then we can have a debate.
24:27Do you buy European or American?
24:29But at the moment I would say, more generally speaking, let's look at this as one big transatlantic defense industrial
24:36market.
24:36And there is enough money for everybody.
24:39And there will be a defense dividend coming from this.
24:43Because all these investments will also lead to societal returns, not only in the defense output from the defense industrial
24:50base, but also innovation and everything else.
24:52And Secretary General, just a final question.
24:55What do you think NATO 3.0 means?
24:58Because I see two different schools.
25:00One says it means an alliance in which we pay.
25:03We both commit.
25:04So it will equalize the relationship.
25:06It will be stronger because we will commit more.
25:09There are some in Europe who would say ultimately NATO 3.0 means they will pull back the troops.
25:14We will have to pay more.
25:15We will have to pay for their weapons.
25:16And in exchange what we get is the nuclear umbrella.
25:20That is it.
25:20That is NATO 3.0.
25:22Which one is it?
25:23Well, it's more like the first than the second, but let me be more precise.
25:26It's too negative, the second one.
25:27Yes.
25:28I mean, it's a bit of a crazy assumption that it will be the second one.
25:30You don't mean this.
25:32Because if the U.S.
25:33What do we think?
25:34If the U.S. would only be here with the nuclear umbrella, of course, from a strategic and technical point
25:38of view, that would not be very wise.
25:41Because you want also to be there then, if you have a nuclear umbrella, in the conventional sense.
25:45For all kinds of tactical, strategic reasons, the military people can explain to you why that is important.
25:50So the U.S. will stay involved in Europe, also in the conventional domain.
25:54No, the problem was that NATO was not sustainable.
25:57It is not sustainable that you have a country in the United States being overly responsible for the defense of
26:03600 million Europeans.
26:04We are the richest part of the world.
26:06There is no part of the world which is richer than Europe.
26:08And then we are totally over-dependent on a country so far away, 340 million people to defend against 140
26:15million Russians.
26:16That's not sustainable.
26:17That's what we are changing now.
26:19That means that, and this is the paradox, the United States, thanks to the fact that Europe is stepping up,
26:25will be much more committed to Europe.
26:27Because they need Europe and a secure Atlantic and a secure Arctic.
26:30Look at the Greenland debate we were able to bring to a successful outcome last week.
26:35The Danish and the Greenlanders and the Americans very successfully.
26:39A case in point that we need secure Arctic, secure Atlanta, secure Europe to keep Europe, the Arctic, and the
26:45United States safe.
26:46The problem was there was a total lack of equality in terms of spending.
26:52That's now being redressed, not only because Trump wants this, but also because we have to spend much more in
26:58Europe to be able to defend ourselves against the Russians.
27:00Your team says you have to go and you have to leave in time, so I don't want to have
27:03problems with NATO at this point.
27:05But just as a final question, would you say ultimately all of this is chit-chat because the big problem
27:10in Europe will be China?
27:13No, China is extremely relevant, and as I said, if something happens in China would move against Taiwan or somewhere
27:19else in the first island chain, that will have a huge impact on Europe and the U.S.
27:22First of all, because they will try to do everything to stabilize the situation in the Pacific.
27:27By the way, they will need Europe to take indeed responsibility much more than we do at this moment for
27:34our own defense because you cannot require from the U.S. to spread its resources too thinly.
27:40And yes, of course, China is extremely relevant, and we assess that for the moment Russia is the long-term
27:46threat against NATO.
27:47We will see how China develops.
27:49We know they are sitting by 2030 on 1,000 nuclear warheads.
27:53They have massive investments in their military, and it's not only to organize parades in Beijing.
27:57Well, on that note, Secretary-General, thank you very much for joining us.
28:01Thank you very much.
28:02Thanks.
28:03Yes, yes, yes.