00:00So as India is gearing up for the BRICS summit and we are today going to discuss how economic
00:06impact of BRICS summit is going to happen, today I am joined by Mr. Rajiv Kumar who is
00:11a former vice chairman of Niti Aayog.
00:13Welcome to ET Bharat sir.
00:15Thank you, lovely to be here.
00:18So first of all, I just wanted to know from you that as India leads this BRICS summit,
00:23what should be the key priorities, key economic agenda from India perspective?
00:29What can we expect from this summit and what should be visible there?
00:36Saurabh, I am quite clear on India's priorities which must be to try and use the BRICS platform
00:46which by the way is now very powerful with the joining of the new countries now, the 11
00:51countries and so it has got all the capital surplus countries, energy surplus countries
00:57plus it has got the population of the two largest countries.
01:01So it is a very powerful forum now and a powerful platform which can shape the global order and
01:09so to use that global order to try and bring greater stability, lesser uncertainty, less turbulence
01:18and stop this process of conflicts and fragmentation in the world because at the end of the day
01:26as we have all seen, all these things are detrimental to the Indian interest because with the Middle East
01:34crisis the oil prices go up, with the Ukraine-Russia crisis our food prices go up and then also the
01:40investor climate becomes very weak and very dodgy as it were so I think given the strength of the BRICS
01:51platform
01:52now with all the countries then I believe the BRICS economies today contribute more than the G7 economies
02:00so to that extent I think India must use it for bringing about you know reversing this negative tide which
02:11is taking over the world
02:12let me put it like this because at the moment we are in the mix of a sort of negativism
02:17you know and therefore the world is losing its optimism
02:21and that affects investment and that that's not good for India right sir so as you talked about the negativism
02:28and the optimism
02:29so we are seeing so many things from the U.S. side and as U.S. is not part of
02:34this summit
02:35so do you think this will be a kind of challenge for India to talk with these nations keeping U
02:42.S. interest intact or what should India do now?
02:47Well you know India is the founder member of BRICS and so to that extent along with you know the
02:55three other countries you know which was BRIC Brazil, Russia and India and then South Africa
03:01so these four owe it to themselves to strengthen and reinforce BRICS as far as possible you know and to
03:08make it and to make it a formidable actor on the global order
03:13now if that if that implies you know challenging the Washington consensus or the American hegemony in the world
03:23I think to that extent I would say so be it and therefore I'm not I'm not so sure that
03:31we need to be you know we need to be voicing
03:34or we need to be representing in any way U.S. interests in the BRICS platform that will in some
03:41sense weaken our stand and also weaken our credibility amongst the other members
03:47now you know and strategic autonomy doesn't call for representing other countries interests in different fora you know
03:54and the prime minister you know and the prime minister you know is a past master that when he goes
03:59to you know the Shanghai cooperative organization you know recently I mean you know
04:04it was that focus you know to bring together the Euro-Asian country in the Euro-Asian economy
04:10so I think to that extent India would do well to focus on the agenda at hand in BRICS and
04:19one of the which is not included in the threefold agenda that's been declared
04:23but which as I said one of them must be and will be to bring about to lower the level
04:30of turbulence in the world today
04:32because that is that is negatively affecting all countries together you know in whichever part of the world
04:39So let us talk about the country's specifics sir as our relations were not that much so good with the
04:45China
04:45and China is a part of this summit and China is presently also coming
04:50so how should we kind of renegotiate our trade with the China
04:55is this the right time right opportunity to deal with the China or extend our trade relations with the China
05:05sort of BRICS is not the platform to discuss in depth bilateral relations and bilateral issues
05:11you know because that has to be done independently separately
05:14and I think that is why our national security advisor Mr. Doval visited Beijing
05:19and met with his counterpart Wong Yi you know when he was there
05:23and you know and but you're absolutely right in saying that we need to in a way mend our fences
05:31with China
05:31because they are our largest neighbor they are the second largest economy in the world
05:37President Xi Jinping is coming here and Xi Jinping President Xi Jinping and Prime Minister Modi
05:44enjoyed a very strong rapport you know in the past
05:48if you remember pre-Dalwan you know the Ahmedabad visit for Xi Jinping or Shian visit by our Prime Minister
05:56you know and Mahabalipuram so I think what we can use the BRICS platform today is to raise the level
06:07of trust between the two countries
06:10you know to sort of you know much better to create the better environment
06:16the better sort of there's a word ambience for the two countries to work together
06:21and now we have agreed to work together
06:23so rather than going to the nitty gritty of the trade deficits or you know all the border issues
06:29or you know the investment requirement etc which are the issues
06:33I would much rather use that I would much rather the two countries the leaders of the two countries
06:40once again try to create one recreate the Bonhomie that was there and use this summit
06:48as for example Kaizen was used you know for restarting the dialogue between us and India
06:54because that's where the two people met on the sidelines
06:57and that so I think BRICS is a sort of a platform where you know the good environment needs to
07:07be you know created
07:08so that the bilateral talks can then take deeper meaning and go further than where we are at the moment
07:16today
07:16Right so sir as Prime Minister Modi has also mentioned many times that our vision is to be a developed
07:22nation by 2047
07:23so can this summit be used as an opportunity for a lot of problems which all over the world
07:32all the BRICS nations are also facing like energy solutions, climate change, renewable energy and all
07:38so will this be a platform which could set a tempo for these issues?
07:43sort of this goes back to my you know your first question and my first answer
07:47which is that BRICS as a global platform can be used to improve the global economic and global trade environment
07:57and as I said to reverse the negativism because I mean you know it's very clear that if India has
08:03to achieve its developed economy status
08:06it will have to become a much more integrated and greater part of world trade
08:11and that will not happen if protectionism is on the rise
08:14so I mean I'm hoping that BRICS will come out with a very you know
08:18very strong statement against you know protectionism
08:23and a strong statement against in favor of a you know rule-based global world order
08:30you know and things like that
08:32because what we don't want in our march towards 2047
08:36is a fragmented global economy where all the protectionist barriers are up
08:41you know by the developed and the developing economy
08:44because that will be bad for us
08:45that will not be good for us
08:46and also the BRICS can you know come out against weaponizing trade or economy or finance
08:55because I think that's also that's happening
08:57because that's not that's not something which will help us in any way
09:01so I think if BRICS all together you know have a you know sort of a telling statement
09:13you know of bringing together the world pre these conflicts
09:19or you know or if you like if I may be blunt you know pre-Trump
09:22you know if you like I mean then I think it will help us achieve our purpose
09:28of accelerating our growth while at the same time protecting our environment
09:34because I think the Nepal tragedy shows very clearly
09:37which by the way I think brings me to a very important point
09:41which is that BRICS should be used must be used
09:45to remind all of us and the member countries
09:49that environment is a public good
09:52and we all have to take care of it together
09:55because if we don't then the tragedy that we saw in Nepal will be repeated
10:00more often and in more devastating forms than we have seen today
10:04so I think it is in the interest of all the BRIC members
10:07that they reinforce the environment platform
10:11which again unfortunately Mr. Trump may not like
10:15but nonetheless given there are such large energy producers now within BRICS
10:23both Iran and Saudi Arabia are there
10:27and the UAE etc.
10:29so I think if they can come out with a resounding statement
10:34in favour of protecting the environment
10:37reducing the carbon footprint
10:39and creating global conditions for accelerating the growth
10:43of developing economies
10:46I think this summit would have served a very important purpose
10:51so another issue was the de-dollarisation
10:54so I have spoke to many corporate
10:55who voiced a kind of de-dollarisation thing
10:59and they believe that if something can happen
11:02regarding rupee trade with the other countries
11:04or the same similar currency trade
11:06so this will be beneficial for their own goods
11:09so do you think in this kind of platform
11:11something can happen regarding this?
11:15I am not sure and I am not gung-ho about it
11:18and I will rather leave that as be
11:22because there is no reason to wave a red flag in front of the US
11:32while talking about de-dollarisation
11:35it is not going to happen so quickly
11:38BRICS is a collection of very disparate economies
11:42there is some local currency trade already within the BRICS countries
11:49I think let that happen
11:51let that take its own organic growth
11:53there is no reason to push that agenda forward
11:58it is too early
12:00it is too premature to do that
12:03and so therefore I don't think it will serve India's interest
12:08to be a party to that agenda
12:11so SPM is going to hold so many bilaterals as well
12:16including China, Russia and other countries
12:18so if I talk about specifically for Russia
12:21if both the leaders are going to meet today
12:25so what you expect from that meeting
12:28what would come out?
12:30well, you know, Indo-Russian tribes are fraternal
12:35they go back decades
12:37and I have been a witness to the very strong rupee-ruble trade
12:42you know, pre-1991
12:44you know, before the breakup of the Soviet Union
12:48and they are still the largest suppliers for our defence equipment etc.
12:54so what I expect, you know, the Prime Minister's discussion
13:00in the Prime Minister and President Putin
13:03I think are two things
13:05one, how to reinforce
13:08how to expand our economic ties
13:11our technology ties
13:13you know, our innovation ties
13:15which will include maybe opening the
13:17what is called the Eastern Corridor
13:20from Vladivostok
13:21to the Eastern ports
13:23of the Indian subcontinent
13:25and that's all economic part of it
13:27and the second part of it is
13:29I think
13:29which goes back to my first point
13:32the Prime Minister's
13:33emphasis to President Putin
13:35to do whatever he can
13:37to end the conflict
13:39in Europe
13:40because that will be a
13:42very good step forward
13:44for a more coherent
13:45and a more peaceful
13:47and less turbulent
13:48global situation
13:50The same with China
13:52we have a huge trade deficit
13:54between India and China
13:56we buy more than we are selling to China
13:59so do you expect in bilateral
14:01something can happen
14:02and
14:02I don't think so
14:03as I said earlier
14:04this is not the occasion
14:06this is not the platform
14:07to discuss bilateral issues
14:09in that depth
14:10and
14:12the
14:13Indo-Chino-Indian
14:15trade
14:17deficit
14:18trade relationship
14:19is a very
14:21you know
14:22sort of
14:22it's a very
14:24what you say
14:25it's a contentious issue
14:26in some sense
14:26you know
14:27and therefore
14:28that is better discussed
14:30in separate fora
14:31because
14:33you know
14:34this forum
14:35is much better suited
14:37to create the
14:38positive atmospherics
14:40for the
14:41relationship to be
14:43developed further
14:44rather than
14:45go into the
14:45detail and
14:46nitty-gritty
14:47of these bilateral
14:48relationships
14:49what are
14:50I hope
14:51what can happen
14:52though
14:52is that
14:53there can be
14:56a reiteration
14:57of
14:59reinforcing
15:00expanding
15:01building
15:03strengthening
15:03India-China
15:05economic ties
15:06across
15:07all dimensions
15:08whether it
15:09is trade
15:10or it's
15:11technology
15:11or investment
15:12or third
15:14country
15:14investment
15:15etc
15:16so I think
15:17if that can
15:18be done
15:18that will be
15:19really a
15:20big win-win
15:21for both
15:22sides
15:23so if I
15:24ask you about
15:25what could be
15:26a biggest
15:26success
15:27as India's
15:28concern
15:29from this
15:30summit
15:30what do you
15:31expect
15:31a resounding
15:33statement
15:34against the
15:35prevailing
15:36global
15:36turbulence
15:37and global
15:38uncertainty
15:38and against
15:41the fragmentation
15:43of the world
15:44economy
15:44and against
15:46arbitrary actions
15:48by anybody
15:49you know
15:49because I think
15:50you know
15:52and reiterating
15:54therefore
15:54that every
15:56country in the
15:57world
15:57is a sovereign
15:59country
15:59with equal
16:00rights
16:00and should be
16:01treated
16:02in a similar
16:03manner
16:04by whoever
16:05it is
16:05and
16:06BRICS will
16:08stand up
16:08behind those
16:10countries
16:11you know
16:13who need
16:13such sovereign
16:15protection
16:15and global
16:17global
16:18enmity
16:18for that
16:19I think that
16:20will be the
16:20biggest success
16:21much better
16:23contributing
16:24to a more
16:25stable
16:25rule based
16:27less turbulent
16:28peaceful
16:30global world
16:31order
16:31global order
16:32thank you so
16:33much sir
16:34thank you so
16:34much for taking
16:35our time
16:35for ITV
16:36thanks sir
16:37thank you
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