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India Today's Consulting Editor Rajdeep Sardesai joins football experts Karim Bencherifa, Ranjeet Bajaj, Siddhant Aney and host Nikhil Naz for a special FIFA World Cup final preview. Can Lionel Messi inspire Argentina to glory, or will Spain's young stars complete their fairytale run? The panel discusses it all in this roundtable session.
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00:08Argentina vs Spain
00:18Flair vs Tiki Taka
00:30Will Spanish Armada derail comeback kings?
00:44Will Messi create more magic?
00:53Who will win the World Cup?
01:01Ball Cup Roundtable
01:07Okay, with all eyes then on the Grand Football Final, joining us now on this very special Football Roundtable,
01:16Kareem Ben-Sharifa, leading coach who's coached teams in India and across the world including Mohan Bhagan here in India,
01:24Ranjit Bajak, owner Minerva Punjab Football Club, Siddhant Aane, journalist and host at 420 Grams Podcast,
01:33and Nikhil Nas, consulting editor of Sports Today.
01:36Good to have all of you on the show and I'm going to raise the big questions on the Football
01:41Roundtable.
01:43My first big question, is Lionel Messi the greatest footballer of all time?
01:49Is that question now a settled question?
01:52Nikhil Nas, do you want to take a crack at that right at the very outset?
01:56Can we now safely say, third World Cup final, already won one and won every crown that there is in
02:02the world sport of football.
02:04Is he at 39, the greatest ever footballer the world has seen?
02:08Dare I say the greatest sports person the world has seen?
02:12Rajdeep, trust you not to beat around the bush and catch the bull by its horn.
02:15Straight up, you've asked a very difficult question.
02:18I must confess that my love for football started because of Diego Maradona from 86 as well as 90.
02:25And he was my first love in football.
02:27And I thought nobody could really surpass the skill and the goals and the charisma that Diego Maradona had.
02:34But I have to concede now.
02:35I think numbers speak for themselves.
02:38What Lionel Messi has been able to achieve, I think he will go down in history as the greatest to
02:43have played the sport.
02:44Maradona had his peak.
02:45And when he was at his peak, I think he was untouchable.
02:49But that peak didn't last very long.
02:5186, I think, was the Nadir.
02:52His time at Napoli was outstanding, taking a club that had really not won anything from south of Italy to
02:58glory in Italy as well.
03:00And in Europe as well.
03:02But I think Lionel Messi, since he was a young 17-year-old, till now when he's 39 years of
03:08age.
03:09You know, I'm a Barcelona fan, so I've seen him week in, week out.
03:12And then from there on, to do it at the international stage.
03:15Now, just look at it.
03:16He already holds the record now for playing the third final in his career.
03:21Only matched by Cafu.
03:22No other player.
03:23Not even the great Pele made it to the three finals.
03:25Because remember, 62, he was injured in that final.
03:28He's played those three finals.
03:29I'm just going to quickly show you one particular stat.
03:32And I'm just going to read that one stat, Rajdeep.
03:35And that will put things, you know, beyond doubt.
03:37Before Lionel Messi really peaked, most goals in football World Cup, Miroslav Klose.
03:43Most assists, Diego Maradona.
03:45Most goal contributions, Pele.
03:47Most dribbles, Diego Maradona.
03:49Most chances created, Diego Maradona.
03:51Most goal contributions in the knockout, Pele.
03:54Most player of the match awards, Wesley Snyder.
03:56Most World Cup golden balls, Zinedine Zidane.
03:59After Messi, all these nine records that I've just mentioned, all belong to Lionel Messi.
04:04Most goals, Lionel Messi.
04:06Most assists, Lionel Messi.
04:07More goal contributions, Messi.
04:09Dribbles, chance created.
04:11Goals contributed in the knockout.
04:12Player of the match.
04:13Most golden balls.
04:14Everything belongs to Lionel Messi.
04:16So, it's a combination of all those greats that I just mentioned.
04:23Well, there you have a Barcelona, Argentina and Messi fan in Nikhil Nas.
04:28Sidant Ane, is it pretty clear?
04:29And the numbers that Nikhil has put out clearly suggest that there is no comparison.
04:35I mean, I grew up with a Pele poster in my house.
04:40Then I saw Maradona at his best and he was a great character.
04:43And now there's Messi who, perhaps, is he the greatest of them all?
04:50Well, I guess, I mean, Nikhil lined up the stats, Rajdeep.
04:54So, it's one of those discussions that, I guess, keeps the sport going, keeps the sport alive and keeps debates
05:01like these around the sport alive as well.
05:04For those of us who, you know, make our livings out of having those kind of conversations.
05:09I think, in a sense, I mean, for neutrals, comparison is a bit of a joy killer.
05:16That's my favourite line these days.
05:19I don't think there's a goat as far as the sport of football is concerned.
05:24I think, and I don't know Kareem and others whether they agree or not, but it's a team sport.
05:29And, of course, there are some individuals that transcend teams and transcend national and club loyalty and things like that.
05:37But it takes a unit to win at football.
05:40And I think, Rajdeep, as someone who's very deeply connected with cricket,
05:44you'll appreciate that no one player alone can sort of take a team beyond a certain point.
05:51So, I don't want to get into the goal debate.
05:53I think there's a certain young player who we'll see, of course, tomorrow in the final.
05:58There's one who went out in the semi-final who will, down the road, take over many of those records
06:03that Messi has now set
06:05because he's got two World Cups, you know, still to play at least, hopefully.
06:09So, records change, records fall, new heroes are created.
06:14And that's all I have to say on the goat debate.
06:18Okay.
06:20So, you want to get out of the goat debate in a way, but Kareem Ben-Charifa, has that goat
06:25debate been settled?
06:27Before the World Cup, there were still those who thought Cristiano Ronaldo just for the fact he scored so many
06:31goals,
06:32won so many Ballon d'Ors, is perhaps arguably with Messi on the same pedestal.
06:36But Messi now seems to be in a league of his own.
06:39And even perhaps higher than the great Diego Maradona.
06:42Would you agree?
06:42What he's done at 39 is just incredible.
06:47It's difficult to disagree, Rajdeep.
06:49You know, we have some greats in football.
06:53Maradona is one of them.
06:54We live with his goals and his magic.
07:00Cristiano Ronaldo was for a long time neck to neck with Messi.
07:06Pelé, who won three World Cup.
07:09But I think Messi has raised the bar because he had won anything available in international football,
07:18whether individual awards or team awards.
07:21I tend to disagree about the fact that we know that football is a team sport,
07:30but I think Maradona, when he won the World Cup in 86,
07:34I think the impact of Maradona on that World Cup was amazing.
07:41And Messi, the way he's carrying this Argentina team,
07:45it's just amazing.
07:47Especially the game against Egypt, the game in the semi-final against England.
07:55Messi tends to disappear, but when he starts his engine,
08:01especially at the end of the game, he's unstoppable.
08:04Messi is the assists.
08:06Messi is the goals.
08:08And I do think with this generation of Argentina, which is not one of the greats,
08:15the impact of Messi is huge.
08:18And what we can add, Rajdeep, is we are talking about a player who didn't retire yet.
08:23So, we don't know when.
08:26He's still doing great in MLS.
08:29He's still doing great at the level of the World Cup, where all the best are there.
08:35So, I think Messi is slowly closing that debate to be, at the moment, the greatest player ever.
08:47You know, you're saying at the moment, and I think that's significant.
08:50Ranjit Bajaj, you want to dive into this Messi vs. Maradona vs. Pele,
08:54or Beck and Bar, or any of the greats of the past,
08:56or do you believe that debate is now settled in this World Cup?
09:01First of all, thank you so much for having me, Rajdeep.
09:03Right now, if you can see my face, I'm reporting from Sweden, Gothenburg,
09:07where we are here for the World Junior World Cup with an Indian team.
09:10Just entered the semi-finals, which is going to be another 20 minutes.
09:13But a big high to Kareem and Sidhan Tanayi, and obviously Nikhil.
09:18With the stats, Nikhil, so my favourite two quotes come in here.
09:21The only two things in life, results and reasons.
09:24And reasons don't count.
09:25And the second one is, trophies speak louder than words.
09:28It's as simple as that.
09:29In both those counts, I think the debate has been settled,
09:34but if he wins it, if he actually goes out and wins the World Cup,
09:38he puts the full stop and drops the mic.
09:41There is no one who's going to be able to match his record.
09:44And I kind of disagree with Ani Ji,
09:47because when he said that, yeah, it's a team game,
09:50yes, it's a team game, and he cannot do it.
09:52But the team, it's about individual stars.
09:55Football is all about stars.
09:57And so is cricket, by the way.
09:58It's all about stars.
09:59If there was no Tindulka, it wouldn't be that popular.
10:02It's all about stars.
10:03Yes, they combine with the team, but it's all about the stars.
10:07And with Messi coming in, I think he's now become like a living god.
10:13He's like a living god.
10:15He's not dead yet, whereas Maradona is now a saint.
10:19He's actually regarded as a saint there.
10:21So Messi will never be a saint somehow in the same league,
10:25even if he wins four World Cups with Maradona,
10:26because he was the first.
10:28I'm not talking about myself.
10:30I'm talking about what the feeling in Argentina is.
10:33Here, suppose somebody misses a penalty, you're dead.
10:37I mean, you are mentally dead.
10:39In the World Cup, he did it twice.
10:41In both those matches, he's the one who made a difference after that.
10:44And then, he just had the belief,
10:48any player who can make the other players better in the match is a great legend.
10:54And very few players can actually change the match on their own.
10:58That means he can be silent for the entire match.
11:00He can have a moment of brilliance.
11:02Why do you call them legends?
11:04Because they can individually win new matches.
11:06Individual brilliance.
11:07And that is something which is required in every sport,
11:11even if it's a team game.
11:13Because without stars, there'll be nobody following us.
11:16Nobody following football or cricket or any other sport.
11:19And with this, I put my neck out.
11:22I don't know if you're going to ask the question.
11:25They've not come this far to come that far.
11:27They've used something known as opposite psychology,
11:30where they've used rage and anger.
11:33Because rage and anger are the only things which are in your body
11:36where you don't think about yourself.
11:38It's a very primal thing.
11:39So, that means you're only thinking about survival.
11:41So, if you saw the banner held up by Messi and his teammates,
11:45they talked about Falkland Islands,
11:47which is a few kilometers from Argentina,
11:49but England somehow claims it, like they claimed us.
11:51The same way they talk about Maradona,
11:53and then they talk about Messi.
11:54So, they're going to do it for these three things.
11:56So, suppose that's like India saying
11:58we're going to do it for Kashmir in the World Cup.
12:00That's the kind of passion he's bringing up there.
12:06You know, it's fascinating to look at the way Lionel Messi
12:10has become this talisman of the Argentinian team,
12:14which brings us, of course, to the question,
12:16who wins the World Cup?
12:17That's the second big question.
12:19Is it Argentina versus Spain?
12:21Nikhil, as you saw, some of our guests seem to believe,
12:23and many of the analysts seem to believe,
12:25this is not a great Argentinian team.
12:27This is a very, very good Spanish team in particular.
12:30And they outclassed the French who were the favorites in the semifinal.
12:34So, stick your neck out to our second question.
12:38Argentina or Spain?
12:39Who's the more likely to win?
12:42Well, you know, if you did a match simulation, Rajdeep,
12:46I think nine times out of ten,
12:48it would be Spain that would come out on tops versus Argentina.
12:51But remember, that's match simulation.
12:53Matches are completely different.
12:55I think the same result you could have expected
12:57when Argentina were taking on England.
12:58And I remember in the build-up to that match,
13:01I heard many English pundits argue that,
13:03listen, we have the better team man-to-man.
13:06You know, we have the speed.
13:07We have players playing in the top leagues.
13:09Argentina has none of that.
13:10What does Argentina have?
13:11They keep talking about mentality, mentality.
13:14Is mentality going to win you the games?
13:15Guess what?
13:16That's exactly what we saw in that game.
13:18It was mentality that won them the game.
13:20I'd say the same thing.
13:21Spain going as the favorite.
13:22They hold all the aces.
13:24But I think it's that mentality.
13:25And as Ranjit also mentioned,
13:27they have not reached this far just to make up the numbers.
13:29And I'll also, you know, put up an argument about Argentina
13:33and how they've gotten lucky.
13:35Now, remember, yes, they are not the same team
13:37that they were four years ago.
13:38A lot of those players have aged.
13:40You clearly see that.
13:41But you know what?
13:42This is where the footballing acumen comes in.
13:44They've realized that they can't be the team
13:46that can be the attacking team more often than not.
13:49Take a look at the last World Cup.
13:50They would be leading, right?
13:52They would be leading against the Netherlands.
13:55The Netherlands would make a comeback, right?
13:56Because they were younger.
13:57They were aggressive.
13:58They would play like that.
14:00And then the opposition would make a comeback.
14:02They did the same versus France in the final.
14:05They were more brash, more aggressive.
14:07They would lead.
14:07And then the opposition would make the comeback.
14:09They very well know where they are now.
14:11They can't be that same team.
14:13That's why they play that gritty football.
14:15That's why they play that defensive football.
14:17What you saw versus Egypt, it's not that they can't play aggressive football.
14:20But they are, I think, a bit more...
14:22So, who are you going with?
14:23They stay back.
14:24I mean, you know, they stay back.
14:26Who are you going with?
14:27And then they attack when the goal is really needed.
14:28Argentina or Spain?
14:29I mean, it's a tough one.
14:31You're not answering my question.
14:32Argentina or Spain?
14:34Okay, I'll answer the question.
14:35And I'll give you the reason why.
14:37I think I'm going with Spain.
14:38And I'll tell you why.
14:39Because for Argentina to beat most teams, they have to make a messy game out of it.
14:44By messy, I mean the messy with a Y.
14:46I'm afraid versus Spain it will not happen because there is a genuine respect between both players.
14:51There are a lot of Atletico Madrid players.
14:53There are a lot of Barcelona players that play there.
14:55They respect Messi.
14:56I think Argentina wouldn't be as charged up as they were with England, the Falkland War, so on and so
15:01forth.
15:02And that got the best out of Argentina.
15:04I think a nicer Argentina will turn up for the final, and that will be to their detriment.
15:08Exactly.
15:10You're right.
15:12Karim Ben-Charifa, I mean, the belief is that Spain has the method, Spain has the possession football,
15:19but Argentina has the individual stars, not just Messi, but there are the likes of Julian Alvarez.
15:25There are, you know, they have the ability to score from anywhere.
15:29So who are you picking for the World Cup final?
15:31Are you going with Spain or Argentina?
15:34Ranjit has said something very interesting.
15:37When we saw the winning goal against England, it's the craft and the design of Messi.
15:44So I would say tomorrow there is two stars.
15:47There is Messi, of course, and there is young Lamine Yamal.
15:52These are the, for me, the only really above the rest.
15:58Spain have, it's like the Grinta versus the style and the class.
16:04Spain have a younger squad, dynamic midfield.
16:08They have a collective organization.
16:11They play beautiful collective football.
16:13But again, Argentina have that resilience and the pressure, have that positive aggressivity in the game.
16:20And I'm afraid if they go towards that physical game, they will have slight advantage over Spain.
16:30They have also the winning mentality.
16:32They never give up despite losing by two or three, whatever, as long as the referee didn't whistle, they are
16:41still in the game.
16:42And they have that professional, streetwise football.
16:48But I still go with Spain because I want to believe that Spain was showed that they are the better
16:57team with some stars over there.
17:01And it will be a very, very interesting game.
17:04And don't forget also, Argentina have the Messi factor.
17:36They are going for Argentina because of the mentality.
17:37There are controversies and that big controversy that the World Cup is being rigged for Messi and Argentina.
17:43Can we put all those controversies aside as we enjoy the final?
17:48Is that going to be possible at all?
17:50Well, for that argument, I think the ones that argue that the World Cup is rigged for X team or
17:56Y team, I think they don't watch enough of football.
17:59I've said it before.
18:00So if you watch football and at any level, if you watch any football, I can't think of a single
18:04game that, you know, after the game is done, you don't argue with your friends that, oh, we got robbed
18:09and this was a penalty and that was a penalty.
18:11It will always remain like that.
18:12So that's part and parcel of the game.
18:14I'm not going to go down that road.
18:16This World Cup will also be remembered for some other controversies, as we saw President Trump, you know, interfering in
18:22overturning a red card.
18:24I don't think that's the right way.
18:25The way certain teams were dealt with, especially Iran, you had a referee that was denied a visa.
18:31I think those are the controversies we must remember.
18:33It's very easy for the first world to point fingers when it is towards the third world when they get
18:37a World Cup that X is wrong, Y is wrong.
18:39I luckily covered both the World Cups that happened in the so-called third world in South Africa and Qatar
18:45on ground.
18:46And they were outstanding in the way they organize things.
18:49Well done to USA, Canada and Mexico to have done it as well.
18:52But I think they also left a lot to be desired.
18:55So I think, you know, what this World Cup I would remember for, you got 48 teams.
18:59I was a bit of a skeptic saying 48 won't work.
19:02I really like this.
19:03You really open the doors for plenty more teams.
19:05I think you can really have even a bigger World Cup going forward.
19:08But that for me is the biggest positive.
19:13Okay, I'm going to leave it there.
19:15We could go on and on.
19:17Because it's been fascinating to get up late in the night at 2.30 a.m. in the morning.
19:22Then again get up at 6.30 a.m. in the morning and watch football.
19:27It is the beautiful game.
19:28And it is the legend of Messi that could only get stronger perhaps come Sunday night.
19:34Or who knows, Lamine Yamal will show nothing to be a young teenage superstar.
19:40In fact, that photograph of Messi fondling a very young little baby, Yamal will, to my mind, tell you life
19:47story.
19:48How things can change over the years.
19:50Whoever wins, let's hope that we have a glorious game of football.
19:54To all my guests, thank you so much for joining us on this football mini round table.
20:00Thanks for watching.
20:01Stay well.
20:02Stay safe.
20:03Jai Hind.
20:04Namaskar.
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