00:00Sous-titrage Société Radio-Canada
00:30... about the reasons of the Brexit, why 52% of the British people vote against Rome.
00:39Brussels was presented by everybody, the nationalist side, Farage, Johnson, as a kind of scapegoat.
00:48Everybody knows that isn't the case.
00:50A part of the answers, a part of the solutions are in Brussels, but just a part.
00:56A large part of the other answers are in London or in the regions.
01:01But nevertheless, the point is that the Brexit is done.
01:07For us, it's on the book.
01:09And now we have to work in the best way as possible.
01:15The FTA, the trade agreement is clearly done, and there will be no cherry picking in the future.
01:25But we have a lot of things to do with UK for the stability, the security and the defence of
01:31Europe, in my view.
01:32And when I listen to your words, the impression that I get is that you do believe this process is
01:38over.
01:39The conversation of returning to the EU, is that something that you'd say it's a fantasy?
01:44No, I don't think so. I think the Brexit decided by a sovereign vote ten years ago is done.
01:54But the future is open, and the door is open.
01:58The door is open?
01:59Yes, the door is open.
02:00And the UK government, the UK authorities, the UK party, the public parties, knows clearly what are the conditions.
02:10And what are the conditions?
02:11Because it seems to me in the UK, those who have tried to implement Brexit, they hit a wall with
02:17the economy, because it doesn't really work.
02:19And those who tried to reset, they struggled to explain how it would work.
02:23You can have the cake and eat it. You cannot dance in two weddings at the same time.
02:29So the conditions are very clear. If you want to join the single market, being outside of the union, look
02:38at the Norway case.
02:39Norway is inside the single market, their choice, the right choice in my view, for the mutual benefit.
02:47But they didn't want to be inside the union, the European Union. So it's perfectly possible.
02:55But the conditions are for any country joining the single market, for instance, to respect the four freedoms and the
03:03indivisibility of the four freedoms.
03:05And to make those decisions, the next UK prime minister will have to make very bold choices.
03:13Do you see the political courage to openly say to the public opinion in the UK, we are going to
03:19start a process that maybe brings that back into the union?
03:22It will be a sovereign choice of the UK to engage in new negotiations, but the conditions are clear.
03:30I think it will take time. So in the meantime, we have a lot to do together, for instance, for
03:39defence, for security, for cooperation between the services,
03:43even for investment in artificial intelligence or new technologies.
03:51I think we have lots of things to do together.
03:56And I have even proposed to facilitate this cooperation between the UK and the EU to create a new body,
04:04which could be a kind of European Council for defence and security, on the side of the current institutions, open
04:14to some countries.
04:15We are not longer or no longer or not yet in the EU, for instance, obviously, UK, but also Norway
04:23or Ukraine.
04:24When you see that Nigel Farage and you know him from Brussels, he really orchestrated this idea of Brexit liberation
04:32for the UK.
04:33Now he's polling very strongly in the United Kingdom, even though you could argue he was not able to deliver
04:39on those promises.
04:40Is that something that shocks you?
04:42No, this is the proof that in any case, in each and every country, even in France, we have to
04:50address the problems of the people.
04:53And the problems are very serious. There is even a kind of hunger in many countries, in many regions, about
05:03unemployment, about public services for health, for transportation, about uncontrolled migration.
05:11We need to address this problem at the right level. This is the difference with Mr Farage.
05:16During the campaign Farage said every day, every night, everything is the responsibility in Brussels as a scapegoat.
05:23It was not true.
05:24And we will get the money.
05:25But now he has no longer the scapegoat to use, but he can use the problem of the people.
05:31So we have to find the right answer at the right level, national level, local and regional level.
05:36If there was a sort of re-engagement, what should the head of the commission do? How do you go
05:42about a re-engagement? If this idea of the UK may be one day rejoining in some capacity?
05:47Once again, it will be the choice of the UK to open this discussion. And we are ready. The door
05:54is open. And at that time, there will be a new negotiation.
05:57I wonder, however, the return of the UK, assuming that is the choice of the UK people to say, we
06:03tried, didn't work, we want to be back in the union.
06:06Is that a process that goes bit by bit, the way that a country like Ukraine would have to? Or
06:12do you see a big ban saying, come on, they were in the union, we can't accelerate?
06:15The answer is in the end of the UK. If from now to this time where a new negotiation will
06:25start, the UK create a huge divergence from the standards, the norms for food, for security, we will have a
06:38problem.
06:38It will take time, much more time. The point is, if there is no divergence, no crucial divergence, it will
06:46be very rapid.
06:47We can't compare, we can't confuse the very long process in some time with new countries we want to access
06:56to the EU and former member states.
06:59And is this conversation happening, would you argue, based on your political instinct, as a result of Brexit did not
07:05really deliver what it promised? Or is it also the product of Donald Trump, which now means the Europeans have
07:12realized they've got to come together?
07:14But we have to explain that Europe, the UK left 10 years ago, not the same today. We have provoked
07:23and created a lot of change, in my view, in a good sense, good direction, because of the COVID crisis,
07:32because of the problem created by the uncontrolled migration, because of the financial crisis, too, 15 years ago,
07:41and also because of the incredible war, and also because of the incredible war, the aggression of Russia against Ukraine.
07:50So each of these crises provoked a good reaction, in my view, of the EU.
07:57So obviously, the fact that the US president is so aggressive against us, is an element, a very important element
08:10for us to be sure that we need to do for ourselves what nobody will come to do in our
08:18place.
08:19Because you say the US will no longer come to rescue the Europeans.
08:23Don't confuse and confront, if I may say, the current US president and the United States of America. For the
08:32long term, we will remain allies and friends.
08:36You do believe the relationship can go back even after Trump?
08:40I hope so.
08:41But there is a reality after Brexit. The idea of exit in the European Union no longer became as popular.
08:47We don't hear in France the idea of Frexit. In Italy, the ideal exit sort of basically died out.
08:52But the populism within the EU talks about changing from within, not leaving.
08:56But the populists are sometimes clever. And they know that what happened in the world around us, with Trump, with
09:05the Chinese, aggressivity for trade and the aggression of Russia, gives the proof to everybody that we need to be
09:13together.
09:13We are stronger together to defend our interests, our values and our continent.
09:21So it's clear for everybody. But I don't think that the populists in France, the nationalists from the far right
09:26and the far left, have changed their mind.
09:30Mrs. Le Pen, when the day of the Brexit, the night of the Brexit, said congratulations to the British people.
09:39They had the courage to escape from the European servitude.
09:45So I don't think they changed their mind. These people from the far right and even the far left want
09:52to destroy the EU.
09:54They want to destroy the EU.
09:55They want to destroy the EU.
09:56They are nationalists. They are nationalists.
09:58You think even today when we see a younger candidate potentially in Bardella, you think ultimately the foundation has not
10:07changed?
10:08I don't know who will be the candidate. The problem is the substance of the program, of their ideology. They
10:17want to destroy the EU. They are anti-European.
10:20You think if there's a way in which they get to government, it would be almost fatal for the European
10:25Union asset construction. Do you think about that?
10:27Sure. Listen to Mr. Bardella. You just speak about him. He said a few days ago he want to cut
10:33from 50% half the budget, the contribution of France to the European budget.
10:41That means they want to destroy the EU. This is clearly the consequences of this decision.
10:48So then going into 2027 and this election, this is a crucial election in this country. Financial markets are looking
10:54at it already.
10:54Not only for France.
10:55Not only for France. This is a systemic country to the EU and a founding member. How do you see
11:01your role in this election? And again what you said now is they want to destroy the EU. That's a
11:05big statement.
11:06The goal here in the French National Assembly where we are today in the French debate and as a former
11:12prime minister is to work for the unity of the centre-right.
11:16Because I think that the unity supporting one single candidate and acting about one single program is the only way
11:26to avoid the incredible duel in the second term of the presidential election between the two candidates from the nationalist
11:35side.
11:35Would you say that's an existential threat to France and therefore by the EU if that is what it comes
11:41down to?
11:41I think it would be dramatic for France and for Europe.
11:45Do you consider playing an active role yourself on the ground?
11:48I don't want to personalize this debate. I am playing an active role.
11:52Well thank you Michel Barnier on that note. Thank you so much for joining us.
11:56Thank you.
11:56Thank you.
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