00:00I am joined by an eminent personality, Dr. Karan Singh. He wears many hats. He has been a parliamentarian, diplomat,
00:08writer and the last Sadrari Asat of Jumayen Kashmir before it was replaced by the governor.
00:15Thank you for joining us, sir.
00:17Pleasure.
00:17What changed within you after the instrument of accession was signed by your father Maharaj Hari Singh in 1947?
00:23Soon thereafter, I was thrown away to America for medical treatment. I was really only 16 years old at that
00:34time. I can't remember having any particularly strong emotions regarding the instrument except the relief that the planes would start
00:44arriving. Otherwise, I was away in America the whole of 1947.
00:57So, you have memories of the events that unfolded or what did you hear from your family?
01:05The events were unfolding all over India. Unfortunately, I was on a wheelchair because of my hip problem. So, I
01:14was not very active.
01:15But, I recall very clearly when I was at Doon School,
01:20wahan se shuru huwa, when the riots started and the whole Pakistan episode took place.
01:30I remember reading about it. I remember reading about it. The Congress Committee and then the Joint Committee and Mountbatten's
01:38role and all.
01:39So, that all I was reading as an interested young man. But, as far as Jumu and Kashmir was concerned,
01:47the situation had become very desperate because the Kabailis had almost reached the airport.
01:56They had come out. They had come up to Shalting and there was also, Punch was also on fire. So,
02:04there was a lot of problems at that time.
02:07Several historians have documented that many people over 4.5 lakh people were killed in Jammu during partition. What actually
02:16happened?
02:17I was not there, so I have no idea. I think that is an exaggeration. What I was told was
02:25that when Mirpur had fallen into the hands of the Pakistanis, if you like, wahan kuch atrocities huwa te.
02:36And some of the people from Mirpur, survivors from Mirpur came to Jammu. And then there was some reaction to
02:45that. And maybe there was some rioting in Jammu.
02:48No, I wasn't in JNK at all. So, I cannot say anything definitive. But my view is that it has
02:56been greatly exaggerated. I think that there may have been some response or reaction to the situation in Mirpur, which
03:10was a terrible event. I believe there lots of people were massacred and women were raped. It was a very
03:16bad situation.
03:16Mirpur was a very important town. After, in the Jammu region, after Jammu, Mirpur was very important. But then, o
03:25long jo aaye, a refugee banke. I think that was mainly the reason for the response. I am not justifying
03:33any kind of rioting. But maybe some rioting took place at that time. But I am sure it was not
03:39anywhere near the figure that you have mentioned.
03:41So, Prime Minister Narendra Modi recently shared your article that where you had highlighted several parameters where India has made
03:49development, be it the welfare delivery, the infrastructure, healthcare, etc. Looking back after nearly 80 years, what distinguishes this period
04:02from previous phases of India's development?
04:05You see, when we became independent, Pandit Jabharlal Nehru was the predominant figure. In fact, he was my mentor, my
04:17political guru. I was in touch with him from 1949 to 1964. Our correspondence has been published by Oxford University
04:27Press.
04:29We did a lot of correspondence. So, that was a very different time. And then, down through the years, I
04:36have been in touch with each and every Prime Minister.
04:39And my view is that every Prime Minister, in their own way, tried to build India. Whether they were successful
04:47or not is a different matter. But all of them did try.
04:52And then it is very interesting that after Jabharlal Nehru, Narendra Modi has had a sort of a parallel, although
05:01ideologically very different, but a parallel career.
05:08He was also very popular. He was also very popular wherever he went. Lacks of people collected. Modi is also
05:14the same. He was also greatly revered and respected abroad. Same thing with Modi ji.
05:22So, in many ways, their careers are going similar, despite the fact that their ideologies diverged completely.
05:32But there are a lot of questions in current political situation. There are a lot of questions on Jabharlal Nehru.
05:40And many have questioned his legacy also, including the incumbent government.
05:44I think it is very unfortunate that an attempt is being made to denigrate Jabharlal Nehru. You see, none of
05:53you have any idea of the tremendous problems there were after partition.
05:59Churchill has said that once we leave, India will break into 20 pieces. The fact that it didn't break was
06:08due to two people.
06:09Jabharlal Nehru, Jabharlal Nehru, Prime Minister, Valdabhai Patel, Deputy Prime Minister, Home Minister. These two people kept the ship of
06:19state steady.
06:20So to denigrate either of them, particularly Jabharlal Nehru, is entirely wrong. You may not agree with everything in the
06:29same way people may not agree with everything Modi ji does.
06:32But that doesn't mean he should be denigrated. Because Dehru fulfilled a historic role in keeping India together and in
06:43making India a democratic republic, which cannot be downgraded.
06:49You recently described the Khir Bhavani Mela that's being observed today and celebrated in Jumun Kashmir as a symbol of
07:02Kashmiri culture.
07:02But at the same time, Kashmiri pundits are still living as migrants across the country and even outside the country.
07:13So what is required so that they can again return to Kashmir?
07:19You see, not all of them can be looked upon as migrants. Some of them are very well settled in
07:25India. Some of them are very well settled abroad.
07:28Because they are an extremely intelligent and hardworking community. They are not going to sit around in refugee camps.
07:36There are still some refugees, I believe, in the camps near Jammu. But I would say the bulk of Kashmiri
07:44pundits have made alternative arrangements.
07:48If they want to come back, it's a very good thing. How many will want to come back is a
07:54big question mark.
07:54Because now since that time, two generations have passed. And the younger people have no particular either love or interest
08:05maybe in coming back to Kashmir.
08:07But they are always welcome. And every successive government has said, has made statement to the effect,
08:15if they come back, we will give them all facilities. They are the ones who have to decide. Not the
08:23government, you mean to say.
08:24No, the government has nothing to do with it. Government should provide all facilities. But the decision to come back
08:31is their own private decision.
08:32We can't force anybody. It's a democracy. We can't force anybody to come back.
08:38So you witnessed the making of the modern India. Do you see that or feel the makers or the framers
08:46of the constitution, what they had envisioned, is, I mean, see, the goal, those goals are being realized now?
08:55Well, let me tell you that our constitution is a remarkable document. The fact that it has remained the basic
09:06fundamental structure of our democracy.
09:12And the great thing about it is, it is open to amendment. There have been over a hundred amendments.
09:18So it is a remarkable document. It is open to amendment. But the fundamental principles it has envisaged, fundamental rights
09:29and so on, those remain very firm.
09:32So I think our constitution is an extraordinary document.
09:37Any areas for course correction?
09:38Well, I think the areas are not so much for course correction of the constitution, but course correction of the
09:45people who run the country,
09:49parliamentarians and legislatures, they are the ones who have to course correct.
09:54Because the sort of things that happen in parliament and all the shouting and screaming and the gali galosh, that
10:00is not really the way a democracy should function.
10:05Because we have important differences, but you don't have to use abusive language or shout, which unfortunately is being done.
10:18You raised an alarm when Jumayen Kashmir was downgraded in August 2019. So how do you see the abrogation of
10:29article 370 or the downgrading and bifurcation of the aristovial state of Jumayen Kashmir?
10:37You see, I have seen so many changes. I have seen so many changes. I have seen my father's rule.
10:44I remember that. Then I have seen how in the first 30 years the Congress party was in power, their
10:53rule.
10:55At that time the whole discussion was between autonomy and integration. Which parties were prepared to integrate and to what
11:05extent. This was the whole thing that went on for 65 years.
11:12Ultimately, that whole dialogue was abruptly cut by this action of abrogation. There are mixed feelings about it. Even at
11:26that time I had said there are some good things and maybe the one thing that I at least didn't
11:33appreciate was our denigration to a union territory.
11:39Because ours was the biggest state. In British times, Jumayen Kashmir was the largest state area wise. Not revenue wise
11:48Hyderabad, Mysore, but area wise JNK was the biggest state.
11:53And then we said, you are the largest state. And then suddenly we find ourselves even lesser than Himachal and
12:06the other states around us, Punjab and Haryana. So that is not something which is appreciated.
12:19But many positive things happened. But many positive things happened certainly. For example, lack of people who could not vote
12:26earlier.
12:27Though Pakistan came from Pakistan, you remember, they could vote for the parliament but they could not vote for the
12:32assembly. They became enfranchised.
12:37Women, there were some sort of laws that were in some ways anti-women. If a woman married somebody, she
12:45lost her property. That has changed. And several other important changes have taken place.
12:52The penal code and the penal code has changed. I suppose change is inevitable. And this was a very major
13:01change. As far as Ladakh is concerned, frankly, they were agitating for a union territory for many, many years.
13:09In fact, I remember supporting them. In fact, I remember supporting them in that demand. Now they are not satisfied.
13:21That is a different matter. But in a way, I think that they deserve to have a separate status.
13:28The central government has repeatedly assured restoration of statehood. Yes. That is the appropriate time. Do we see?
13:36What is the appropriate time? They have assured the parliament and they have also assured the Supreme Court. Now, I
13:44do not know. They will have to choose the appropriate time.
13:48What to your mind is the appropriate time? I cannot say. That is the decision the government of India has
13:56to take, keeping in view. I am not now au fait with all the latest situation. What is the security
14:02situation? What are the threats from China or from Pakistan? What is the whole? Unless we have a total view,
14:10I cannot give any idea about that.
14:13What impact would the delay of restoration of statehood have on the people of Juma and Kashmir? I think the
14:20people are getting somewhat disturbed that it has not been restored. So if it is delayed indefinitely, then certainly there
14:36will be repercussions among the people, particularly perhaps in the valley.
14:46But you see, they said they will do it. I am sure they will do it one day. When they
14:51will do it, I do not know.
14:53Thank you for joining us, Dr. Sahab. So this was Dr. Karan Singh, whose family in fact has an important
15:01role in the making of modern India. Thank you for joining us.
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