This talk was organized by VIMHANS in collaboration with India Habitat Centre, New Delhi. It was a part of a 12-month interactive series on Indian psychoanalysis (2012 -2013) curated by the then newly established psychoanalytic therapy unit at VIMHANS, New Delhi. The speaker is Pulkit Sharma, a well-known clinical psychologist, psychoanalytic therapist, spiritual counselor and author now based in Pondicherry, India.
Highlights of the talk:
1. The role of unconscious mind in violence
2. Affect dysregulation
3. Primitive defense mechanisms: acting out, passive aggression, splitting, projective identification.
4. Self-destructive behaviors and suicide
5. Violent thoughts, emotions and behaviors in psychotherapy room
6. Handling transference and countertransference
#aggression #psychologyfacts #psychoanalysisinindia #pulkitsharmaclinicalpsychologist #authorpulkit
Highlights of the talk:
1. The role of unconscious mind in violence
2. Affect dysregulation
3. Primitive defense mechanisms: acting out, passive aggression, splitting, projective identification.
4. Self-destructive behaviors and suicide
5. Violent thoughts, emotions and behaviors in psychotherapy room
6. Handling transference and countertransference
#aggression #psychologyfacts #psychoanalysisinindia #pulkitsharmaclinicalpsychologist #authorpulkit
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LearningTranscript
00:01Whenever we feel frustrated, whenever we want to do something, we want something from life,
00:07from anyone, and that is not fulfilled, and it's very common that it will not be fulfilled,
00:15we kind of have very intense, unpleasant, negative emotions.
00:20All of us have that.
00:23We may feel sad, we may feel very angry, we may feel 100 different things, we may feel envious kind
00:29of thing.
00:31But what also happens is that all of us also have varying degrees of capacity to handle or to deal
00:39with these emotions.
00:41Some of us try to deal with those emotions and try to think through them.
00:45There are others who find it very unpleasant to be with those emotions and simply want to talk to a
00:52friend,
00:52or listen to a loud piece of music, or just go out to a party, go out in a shop.
00:57We all have a capacity to contain and to deal with those emotions.
01:03Violent people, they many times do not have such good capacities to be with these emotions and to control these
01:12emotions.
01:12So they kind of suffer from what we call affect dysradiation.
01:19That they have a very low tolerance for difficult emotions.
01:26Any difficult emotions would kind of throw them into a very very difficult kind of situation.
01:33I also had one patient who used to do polysubstances.
01:40He was into multiple kind of drug addictions and substances.
01:44And the reason was that it was very hard for him to tolerate any emotion.
01:48If he was excited, he found it hard to tolerate it.
01:52If he was frustrated, he found it really hard to tolerate it.
01:56When you talk to these people, they will come up with these experiences.
02:00They feel that everything inside of them is kind of breaking down.
02:06Or they feel a sense of anxiety.
02:09Or they feel so many emotions and they have little explanation or language to put these things across.
02:18Generally, when we have a very good language for something, that means that we have learnt to think through it
02:24and we have learnt to tolerate it.
02:28And these are the people who would have a tendency to be violent more frequently.
02:36With less or at times no external provocation.
02:41So, we also talked about thresholds.
02:45You know, that I walk into a restaurant and I ask for a drink.
02:48That I should be served a drink.
02:50And the person says, no you can't.
02:52So, you know, it's also an individual threshold.
02:56I may feel sad, I may feel very angry.
02:58But it's a very different thing that I may just wake up this chair and bang it on the person's
03:03head.
03:03It means that my threshold level to tolerate that is very different.
03:07To tolerate that unhappy emotion.
03:16And it is also very interesting that what we psychologically call the ego.
03:20That these people also lack, you know, a self-observational capacity.
03:26Self-observational capacity is also something that, you know, people who are neurotic and healthy.
03:32You know, people like us, you know, they have most of the times, you know, that we can think back.
03:38And, you know, we can have a memory of, you know, experiences, emotions, thoughts.
03:44You know, we can go back in time and easily report those things, you know.
03:48Even during those cases when we are feeling emotionally overwhelmed.
03:51But some of these people, they kind of, you know, don't have this self-observational capacity, you know.
03:57So, they at times have very little clue of what happened immediately before, during and immediately after the virus.
04:05So, you know, many times we have this attitude that they may be lying or they may be manipulating.
04:09There are, there is a certain segment of people which lies and manipulates.
04:13And what we deny that, for most of the people, they also suffer from this, you know,
04:19wholenessness to cognitive habits.
04:23Right.
04:24The second thing that we come to is what we call primitive defense mechanisms.
04:32Now, what are defense mechanisms?
04:35You know, as the name suggests, you know, they are some things to, you know, that we use to defend
04:42our own sense, you know.
04:47They are often, you know, ways of coping, which help us in having a good sense of ourselves.
04:56So, they give us a good self-esteem.
04:58They also help us, you know, deal with anxiety, you know, which will come from frustrations, conflicts.
05:05And they also help us to tolerate failures in interpersonal relationships.
05:11So, for instance, if someone, you know, does not agree to us with us with a past or first step,
05:15please.
05:15I was going to ask you the defense mechanisms in the unconscious, which means if I get into meditation.
05:22Right.
05:23That's not a defense mechanism.
05:25Okay, see there is a distinction between defense mechanism and defense.
05:33Defense mechanism is often you know, the way that you could deal with your emotions right.
05:39I will give you an example. Suppose if every time I am very sad, I just want to go out
05:46and shop.
05:47So shopping is a conscious behavior. I know that I am going and I am shopping.
05:54But this sense that what is shopping helping me escape from?
06:00The exact emotional content of it, the exact cognitive content of it, that's what the defense mechanism is.
06:06So the mechanism is like it operates at a slightly subliminal level. It's not so conscious.
06:15So the actions we do, they are at times very much conscious.
06:19And that's why many times we don't have a bunch of things. We do things.
06:24At times I have had people who say that I was feeling just like that and I ate a lot
06:33of food.
06:34And I freed myself with food. But I don't know why do I do it.
06:36So that's what a defense mechanism is.
06:48Defense mechanisms are something very natural. They are also very developmental in nature.
06:55So for instance that when we are small children, we have very primitive ways of coping with unhappy things and
07:02unhappy situations.
07:03As we grow older, we, you know, based on our emotional development and cognitive development, as we mature, we start
07:10using more mature ways of coping.
07:13A very interesting defense, which you see in very young children, which you also see many times in very violent
07:20people, is what we call acting out.
07:22It's an action-level defense.
07:23So, what do you think? You know that, you know, if a small child wants something and you have it,
07:32you know, you give it to them and you simply snatch it away from them.
07:36How do you think a small child will behave kind of?
07:39You may start crying.
07:41You may start crying. Anything else? You may not get a good small child, do you? You simply cry.
07:47Yeah.
07:47Hit.
07:48Hit.
07:49Hit. Yeah.
07:50So that's what acting out is. You know, that if I feel sad, bad, angry, I just can't hold on.
07:58You know, I have to give it back to you. And I have to give it back to you in
08:02a very complete manner.
08:03So that if I am hit, I simply have to give you back.
08:07You know, even like, you know, verbally abusing someone is an emotional development.
08:12You know, that you think that by verbally abusing someone also, I can, you know, express myself.
08:18So that acting out is a very primitive defense. It's based on action.
08:22That you need to do something to deal with that.
08:29And as you often see with violent people, due to a deficit in their emotional development,
08:35they act like, as many a times, they stick to, you know, these primitive defenses.
08:41They grow up to be big, but they are kind of, you know, really focused in dealing with their stresses
08:48in a very primitive manner.
08:50Yeah. So as I was talking about acting out and this first example of the, you know, person,
08:58and social circumstances, you know, social circumstances.
08:58personal ideas and personal ideas.
08:59So he was also using a lot of acting out.
09:02He was frustrated, so he had to act physically, you know, to get, you know, this experience of frustration
09:10discharged from his system.
09:12So in acting out, what the person does is that feelings, wishes and impulses, they are expressed
09:17in a very uncontrolled, raw manner, without disregard for person and social circumstances.
09:24It's another very interesting reason, you know, that most of the time we talk about having
09:27very strict and stringent laws for violence, you know.
09:30Everyone says, you know, that you should have, you know, laws.
09:33And I agree that we should, you know, that one should have laws.
09:36But the interesting thing about, you know, people who use this defense is that when they
09:40are in that moment, they simply can't really think on those things, you know.
09:44They kind of, they have just this need to really discharge this unpleasant sense out of
09:50this system.
09:51They don't really care for anything else.
09:55Right.
09:56And they would generally discharge anything that is painful for them.
10:04And interestingly, you know, when we look at people who are violent or who are into violence,
10:12at the core, we would find usually emotional pain, you know, that what provokes people is
10:19that when they kind of, you know, feel hurt, you know, by someone, or they experience
10:23some kind of hurt with their sense of self.
10:25That's the time when they would really lash out, you know, very madly.
10:34What do you mean that they are discharged but not felt?
10:40Okay, they are discharged but not felt.
10:42Which means that the moment these people start getting awareness that something unpleasant
10:48is happening, you know, that has to be spit out from the system, you know.
10:54In general, if one is able to feel one's emotion, you know, and you are able to deal with,
11:00you know, you are able to stay with that feeling, it's a sign of a very good emotional development.
11:05So that I am sad, you know, and I am feeling hurt by, you know, my colleague, you know,
11:11because I asked her for a favour and she did not, you know, grant or something really,
11:15then now I can stay on with this feeling, I can continue to feel sad, you know.
11:20That's, so, I would not say that that's very healthy coping but it's, you know, better than that.
11:25The thing is that if I ask her for something and she does not have a sanction that,
11:30and it really, it really comes to me like I have been stabbed, you know,
11:34and I just can't bear that, you know, and I need to do something to make her feel hurt, you
11:39know.
11:40That's what it means.
11:41So that you don't feel it completely, you don't have the capacity to be equal,
11:45you have to, you know, you have to just, kind of, like a program.
11:52It has to be like that.
11:54Right.
11:55Right.
11:55The second difference which we see is what we call passive regression.
12:02So it's also a primitive, yeah.
12:04Sir, I also say.
12:05Yeah, please.
12:06Sir, I would like to interrupt you, but.
12:11No, no, that's okay.
12:12Everyone will say.
12:12But I don't think we are focusing on the personal problem.
12:16Okay.
12:16The personal problem is what we need.
12:21We can eliminate that,
12:23we can eliminate that,
12:25we can eliminate that.
12:27Okay.
12:30So it will be eight animals in their own life,
12:34and what we are doing is what we are doing is .
12:41Right.
12:42See, what you are saying is that the person should try,
12:46and they should develop their own sense manually out of these things.
12:51Right.
12:51And I am also precisely talking about that,
12:53and how some people feel very stuck at those points,
12:56and they are unable to develop it.
12:57You know.
12:58So that's what I am talking about.
13:00How people have time to do,
13:02despite wanting to grow and develop,
13:03they feel very stuck.
13:05Right.
13:06So, what you are saying is very important,
13:08if someone can do it on their own,
13:10that's very wonderful.
13:11They can grow and develop,
13:13and, you know, out of all these things.
13:17Right.
13:18So, coming back to passive aggression,
13:21as the name suggests,
13:23that the person would do something,
13:26to kind of express back the pain,
13:32but rather than hitting the person like that,
13:35you know, very physically,
13:36they would do it in a,
13:38they would often do it in a,
13:40in a way that would be sort of,
13:42you know,
13:44unclear to people.
13:46Like,
13:48I worked with this person,
13:49and he came from a background,
13:51you know,
13:52where,
13:53there was a very strict notion,
13:54of how exactly the person should be.
13:58I mean,
13:59please don't mistake as,
14:02you know,
14:02as a very general thing,
14:04because we all,
14:05you know,
14:05I think that,
14:07whenever we are born into a family,
14:09or a culture,
14:10everyone has a certain image,
14:11of how we should be.
14:12But most of the times,
14:14parents also have a certain degree,
14:16of flexibility.
14:17They hold that image,
14:18but they also give the child some space,
14:20and flexibility,
14:22to kind of,
14:22you know,
14:22to make some kind of compromise.
14:24But this person actually came,
14:26from a family,
14:27which were very,
14:28very stern,
14:29in how the person should be.
14:31And they would not really,
14:32accommodate even a centimeter deviation from that.
14:35To give you one example,
14:36if this child would be,
14:37you know,
14:38playing and laughing,
14:39you know,
14:40and,
14:40you know,
14:41just enjoying himself,
14:43he would be slack hard,
14:44and told, you know,
14:45that,
14:45what is there to laugh about,
14:47you know,
14:47and,
14:48laughing is not a good thing,
14:49you should learn to behave yourself.
14:51You know,
14:51if,
14:52even if he was kind of,
14:54you know,
14:54say,
14:55watching a cartoon on TV,
14:56it's like a very extreme case,
14:58so,
14:58he,
14:59at that time,
14:59you know,
14:59really get a heart stamp,
15:00that,
15:00where is the need to laugh so much,
15:02kind of.
15:03So,
15:03that this person,
15:05had a very intense rage inside of him,
15:08but he also,
15:09had a very strong bond,
15:11you know,
15:11towards his family.
15:12So,
15:12he would never come up with the terms of,
15:14no daily,
15:15you know,
15:15saying it in face,
15:16you know,
15:17you know,
15:18that I have even heard.
15:19But,
15:20the way this person spoke is,
15:21that he,
15:22despite being,
15:24very intelligent,
15:25this person,
15:26was doing,
15:28really,
15:28very low,
15:29in economics,
15:30you know,
15:31he was,
15:32he was like a very,
15:34very,
15:34you know,
15:34huge,
15:35underachiever type.
15:36So,
15:38that was his way of expressing this,
15:41that,
15:41you want me to be,
15:42a,
15:43very perfect image,
15:44you know,
15:45and,
15:45that's how I am going to fail you,
15:47that I am going to be,
15:48a,
15:48very low achievement.
15:53So,
15:54this,
15:55also,
15:55brings us to a very interesting,
15:57you know,
15:58that,
15:58how many times,
15:59aggression,
16:00you know,
16:01though,
16:01its sources,
16:01maybe,
16:02towards someone else,
16:03it also,
16:03starts consuming,
16:05and eating us,
16:05in fact.
16:07Yeah.
16:08So,
16:08it is commonly,
16:09as I said,
16:10it is commonly seen,
16:11in various kinds of,
16:12self-destructive behaviors,
16:14and,
16:14at times,
16:15you know,
16:15people,
16:16who also have this tendency,
16:17for a very,
16:18material type of growth.
16:20Coming to the third defense,
16:22which is,
16:23splitting.
16:27Splitting,
16:28as the name,
16:30suggests,
16:30it's a slightly,
16:31more mature defense,
16:33because,
16:33now,
16:34the person,
16:35starts working,
16:35at a mental level.
16:37So,
16:38what the person,
16:40does,
16:41in splitting,
16:41is,
16:42that,
16:42I keep,
16:43away from that.
16:45In general,
16:47you know,
16:47what we all do,
16:49is,
16:49suppose,
16:49if someone,
16:50comes and,
16:50asks me,
16:51about my,
16:53father,
16:56I'll say,
16:57you know,
16:57that my father,
16:57has been very supportive,
16:58very helpful,
16:59you know,
17:00so on and so forth,
17:01but,
17:01yeah,
17:01he's also,
17:02kind of,
17:02you know,
17:03very rule-bound,
17:04and,
17:04that's the thing,
17:05I really hate about him,
17:06because,
17:07I can't be so rule-bound.
17:09So,
17:09that's a,
17:11so,
17:12that's a,
17:13mixed image,
17:14that I carry of this person,
17:16that I,
17:16admire this person,
17:17I love this person,
17:19and then,
17:19I have,
17:19some space in my mind,
17:21to feel,
17:22you know,
17:23that,
17:23you know,
17:24that,
17:24there are some aspects,
17:25which I'm not very comfortable about,
17:27you know,
17:27as far as this person is concerned.
17:29Right?
17:30But,
17:30what someone does in splitting is,
17:32that they need to,
17:33have,
17:34either a very,
17:37idealized version of the person,
17:38or a very devalued version.
17:40And,
17:41they just can't,
17:41you know,
17:42allow these two feelings to mix.
17:43So,
17:44it's actually,
17:45you know,
17:46very,
17:47interesting with such people,
17:48because,
17:49they can be,
17:49you know,
17:50that,
17:50if they are in a relationship with you,
17:52so,
17:52at times,
17:53you can simply say,
17:54you know,
17:54that,
17:54oh,
17:55you are the most wonderful person in this earth,
17:57and I,
17:57you know,
17:57damn it,
17:57I love you,
17:58I can never get someone,
17:59who has the best.
18:00And,
18:01say,
18:01if an hour later,
18:02they let you down somehow,
18:04and,
18:05letting you down can be a very small thing,
18:07that they don't,
18:08you know,
18:10praise you,
18:11or,
18:11something like that.
18:12So,
18:12the person simply goes and says,
18:14that you are very horrible.
18:15I haven't seen,
18:15you know,
18:16a person as bad as your friend.
18:18And,
18:19one person,
18:20whom I,
18:20again,
18:20like,
18:21you know,
18:21saw in therapy,
18:22who used to use this defense a lot,
18:25he,
18:28you know,
18:28he,
18:29kind of,
18:30he had a very unstable,
18:33similar,
18:33very unstable sense in his relationship,
18:36and he got,
18:36you know,
18:36the same view into therapy,
18:39when he was like,
18:39you know,
18:39working with you.
18:40So,
18:40in the same session,
18:43he would start the session on this note,
18:44that I feel really helped by you,
18:46and,
18:46you know,
18:47you are a very wonderful person,
18:49you are a very intelligent therapist,
18:50and sort of like that.
18:51Right after 15,
18:5320 minutes,
18:53you know,
18:54he would really get into a very assortive attack,
18:56and say,
18:57that you are simply trash,
18:58I even wonder,
18:59you know,
18:59who,
19:00who,
19:00kind of,
19:00allowed you to qualify,
19:01you know,
19:02you should have been practicing.
19:04So,
19:04that's the rapid shift that can happen.
19:06And,
19:07at times,
19:07I would simply ask this person,
19:09you know,
19:09that's what I started doing.
19:11I said,
19:11hey,
19:12you know,
19:12I am the same person,
19:14this is the same,
19:15you are the same person,
19:16how can you simply understand,
19:18that there would be,
19:19you know,
19:19so very different images of me,
19:21you know,
19:21that,
19:21on one hand,
19:23I can be so poor,
19:25and on the other hand,
19:26I can be so trash,
19:27you know,
19:27just a matter of minutes.
19:29So,
19:30that's,
19:30again,
19:30the defense these people use.
19:32And, generally,
19:33they get very violent,
19:35when they are experiencing this,
19:37bad,
19:38you know,
19:39or a negative feeling,
19:40because,
19:41you also have to understand,
19:43that,
19:43when they are experiencing this,
19:44bad feeling,
19:45they are totally interested,
19:46but they have very little awareness,
19:48about belief.
19:49So,
19:50you know,
19:50why we aren't able to convey,
19:52suppose,
19:52I talk about my,
19:54Kaleem Neha,
19:55I have a certain image of her,
19:56that she has been very helpful,
19:57throughout the thing.
19:58So,
19:59if she lets me down,
20:00on one occasion,
20:01I have a memory,
20:03and a good experience of her.
20:04But,
20:04if I do splitting,
20:05then,
20:05my experience becomes,
20:06moment to moment.
20:08Then,
20:08I am living in that moment.
20:09So,
20:09when she lets me down,
20:11that makes me really enraged,
20:13and that makes me,
20:14kind of,
20:14react very violent.
20:20Yeah.
20:24coming to now,
20:26this is a very interesting defense,
20:28and I will just try to move,
20:29put it into a very simple way,
20:31as simple as I can.
20:32And,
20:34don't go by this,
20:35it feels slightly complicated,
20:37I have just written an example below,
20:39which will help us understand.
20:43Projected by replication,
20:44is actually a process,
20:45you know,
20:46by which a lot of,
20:47anger and aggression,
20:49plays out,
20:49interestingly,
20:50in the relationships.
20:52It means that,
20:52if one person,
20:53is feeling a lot of rage inside,
20:56then that person,
20:56can actually turn the relationship,
20:58into a very aggressive,
21:00abusive one.
21:01How this happens,
21:02is that,
21:04say,
21:05if I,
21:06as a person,
21:06I am using this defense,
21:08then I,
21:08somewhere,
21:09I am very rageful,
21:10from inside,
21:11but I don't understand,
21:12I don't feel that I am rageful,
21:14I think I am a very nice person.
21:16I have no anger,
21:17no rage,
21:17right?
21:18But,
21:19because I have rage,
21:20so what I do is,
21:22I kind of,
21:23do something,
21:25unconsciously,
21:25to make,
21:27you know,
21:27my partner,
21:28or the people,
21:29who are in contact,
21:31with me,
21:32to make them feel,
21:33enraged,
21:33kind of thing.
21:34So I,
21:35provoke them,
21:36in a very subtle manner,
21:37without acknowledging,
21:38that I am provoking them.
21:40What happens is,
21:40once you,
21:41provoke someone,
21:42the other person,
21:44gets angry,
21:45and blows up.
21:46Now,
21:46when the other person,
21:47gets angry,
21:48and blows up,
21:48I say that,
21:49hey,
21:49look,
21:50you aren't angry with me,
21:51you are the one who is rageful,
21:54and therefore,
21:54I am rageful.
21:55So that's what happens,
21:57in,
21:59projective identification.
22:00And it's a very common thing,
22:01you know,
22:02that most violent people,
22:03do that.
22:08Any questions till now,
22:10could be gone,
22:12and received,
22:13what is this time,
22:14sir?
22:14What is this time,
22:15The basic concern,
22:18of the childhood,
22:19to the old age,
22:20anger is there.
22:21Right.
22:22Anger is the same,
22:23crisis.
22:24One is,
22:24a person born,
22:26one is,
22:26or,
22:27should they,
22:29stress,
22:29stress,
22:30and stress,
22:30yeah.
22:32In your view,
22:33which is the way?
22:35I think,
22:36that,
22:39all the ways,
22:40that place,
22:41you know,
22:41are dysfunctional,
22:42to some extent.
22:43What we really need to do,
22:45is that,
22:45if it goes violent,
22:47then,
22:47if your mind is just,
22:50He's,
22:50engineering other bodies,
22:52he's,
22:52engineering himself,
22:53he's,
22:54being,
22:55destructive to the properties,
22:57right?
22:58But,
22:58if you say,
22:59the anger,
23:00yeah.
23:03Anger doesn't,
23:04take any reaction,
23:05to the anger.
23:06Right.
23:06within the two years,
23:08of our time,
23:09you will get,
23:09certain diseases,
23:11maybe myocardic infection,
23:13maybe stroke,
23:14and many other things.
23:15And,
23:16depression,
23:17yeah.
23:17So,
23:18where is the anger,
23:20should you talk?
23:21I think,
23:21see,
23:22that's a very relevant,
23:24question.
23:25You know,
23:25that,
23:26what we really need to do is,
23:28and therefore,
23:29that's why we are focusing a lot on this,
23:30that whenever we are feeling angry,
23:32it is very important for us to understand,
23:34that why are we feeling angry?
23:36The person will not understand.
23:37Please let me finish.
23:39That's what I'm saying,
23:40that we need to understand.
23:41I know that we can't understand,
23:43but we need to build that understanding.
23:45That,
23:46and,
23:46once we build that understanding,
23:48that what is making us angry,
23:50you know,
23:50it's,
23:52I mean,
23:53the general notion is that,
23:54when we are hurt,
23:55we are angry.
23:56Okay.
23:56So,
23:57if we can,
23:58you know,
23:59develop ways,
24:00of expressing our pain,
24:01in a more functional manner,
24:03to the people,
24:04you know,
24:04who we are with,
24:05kind of thing,
24:06and if they can give us,
24:07you know,
24:07more empathic responses,
24:09than their general needs to,
24:11then these things can be taken care of.
24:12But,
24:13I also feel that,
24:13either taking it all in,
24:15or simply spitting it out,
24:16really does not work outside.
24:17And,
24:18these aspects have a problem with that.
24:20But,
24:21why do we expose,
24:23you know,
24:23family,
24:23I think then,
24:24you know,
24:24we will just,
24:26come with,
24:26once we are done with this,
24:28kind of,
24:29and,
24:29kind of,
24:30first speaking in detail about that.
24:32Right.
24:33Excuse me?
24:33Yeah.
24:34Don't you think that,
24:35you know,
24:35because the children,
24:36you know,
24:36they are brought up in comfort,
24:38you know,
24:38and whatever they want,
24:40you know,
24:40that is okay.
24:41Right.
24:41That,
24:41gradually builds up their ego,
24:43and the main reason for the rage,
24:45you know,
24:45is the built-up ego,
24:47in fact.
24:47We can't really tolerate,
24:49you know,
24:49it's like,
24:49if somebody differs with us,
24:51or if somebody coordinates us,
24:52you know.
24:52Right.
24:53Don't you think that is the main reason?
24:55See,
24:56you know,
24:56when children are given,
24:58what they want,
25:00they,
25:00they tell that they will go.
25:03Now,
25:04you know,
25:04it's also very interesting to think,
25:06in terms of,
25:06what are we really talking about?
25:07Are we really talking about,
25:09you know,
25:10the legal comforts they want,
25:12you know,
25:12kind of thing,
25:12you know,
25:13that we are giving them,
25:14kind of thing.
25:15Because,
25:16you know,
25:16see,
25:17how we,
25:17and,
25:18when I am using the term ego,
25:20over here,
25:21it's not the,
25:21common sense meaning of the term ego.
25:24Ego actually means,
25:25a,
25:27capacity,
25:27to kind of,
25:28you know,
25:28to contain your experiences,
25:29and to,
25:30kind of so,
25:31have a perspective on it.
25:34It does not mean,
25:35you know,
25:36pride,
25:37or,
25:38you know,
25:38those sort of things.
25:40As far as,
25:41children are concerned,
25:42you know,
25:42what I really think is,
25:43that,
25:43many times,
25:44they are surely,
25:45even a lot of material goods,
25:47and stuff like that.
25:48But,
25:49when we are talking in terms of,
25:50emotional fulfillment,
25:51you know,
25:53in terms of,
25:53how,
25:54you know,
25:56the,
25:57how their,
25:59sense of self,
26:00should be,
26:00kind of thing,
26:01you know.
26:02There are lacks in that aspect.
26:04So,
26:04you can have children,
26:05who have been really,
26:07provided very well,
26:08materially,
26:09getting all the perks of life,
26:10kind of thing.
26:11But,
26:11children,
26:12who have not been provided for,
26:14you know.
26:15That's what leads to,
26:16right.
26:18Coming to the,
26:19next aspect,
26:21you know,
26:21the,
26:22the,
26:23phenomena,
26:23that is very common,
26:24is what we call,
26:25the V spot.
26:26V here stands for,
26:27vulnerability.
26:32to give you another example,
26:35like,
26:36another patient of mine,
26:37who had very intense experiences,
26:40in childhood,
26:41of being,
26:42bullied,
26:43in his family,
26:44and at his school.
26:45And,
26:47another very interesting thing is that,
26:49most of us do get,
26:50you know, bullied,
26:51but he was very,
26:52severely bullied,
26:53over a very long term,
26:55and he had no one to really look forward to,
26:57his support.
26:58I think if,
26:59for instance,
26:59he would go back at his school,
27:01to his brother,
27:02or to someone else,
27:02and say that,
27:03hey,
27:03you know,
27:03I'm being bullied,
27:04so he would be really,
27:05ridiculed and said that,
27:06you know,
27:06shame on you,
27:07you can't,
27:08you can't,
27:09you can't fight for your own set,
27:10you are,
27:10you know,
27:11you are,
27:12you know,
27:12you have to do it on your own set,
27:13you are,
27:14you have to do it on your own set,
27:15you are,
27:16you know,
27:17a horrible person,
27:18who kind of,
27:18really,
27:19stayed with that.
27:20So,
27:21what happened is,
27:22that this person,
27:24there was an intense pain,
27:26all throughout,
27:27his self-view,
27:28was really diminished,
27:30you know,
27:31his self-confidence,
27:32was down to shantos,
27:33you know,
27:33he never thought,
27:34that he could do anything,
27:35good in life,
27:36what he could achieve,
27:36kind of thing,
27:37and the third thing,
27:38was that,
27:39he was a very vulnerable host,
27:42you know,
27:42so much so,
27:43that,
27:43you know,
27:46with,
27:46you know,
27:47general interactions,
27:48that when he would be,
27:49in a group of his friends,
27:51and say,
27:51if someone simply,
27:52cracked a joke,
27:53you know,
27:53involving him,
27:54he would blow up into it,
27:56or if he goes to his office,
27:58and the boss,
27:59simply,
28:00you know,
28:00talks a slightly harsh thing,
28:01you know,
28:02he was supposed to do this,
28:03he would,
28:04he didn't ask,
28:05a big assault of his self,
28:08he,
28:08his self would be,
28:09really threatened at that point,
28:10right,
28:11he would feel,
28:12very engaged,
28:14he would feel,
28:14you know,
28:14that everything is,
28:16kind of,
28:16going down,
28:18you know,
28:19it is like,
28:20an end of the world,
28:22you know,
28:22that's coming,
28:23so that's what happens,
28:24that people,
28:25who have,
28:26you know,
28:26a vulnerability,
28:27through their experiences,
28:29once again,
28:30they have a very different,
28:31threshold level,
28:33if you take the normal pains,
28:35insults,
28:35and frustration,
28:36of life.
28:37Yeah.
28:39A lot of communities,
28:40are not the factors,
28:41right?
28:41Right.
28:42They provide with the,
28:44watches,
28:45and I know,
28:45the fight for yourself,
28:46how is it that,
28:48do you see a lot of cases,
28:49of these sorts?
28:50See,
28:51this community business,
28:52is very interesting,
28:53because no,
28:53one really required,
28:54to go and work,
28:55in that community,
28:56and actually see it.
28:57Because,
28:58when we are talking about,
28:58psychological phenomena,
28:59you know,
29:00we should never go by,
29:01a very precise thing,
29:04So,
29:04I am sure,
29:05that they may be having,
29:06you know,
29:06because it is also,
29:07not so much about,
29:08what is being,
29:09you know,
29:10if a behavior,
29:11and a practice,
29:12is happening,
29:12at a level of community,
29:14you know,
29:14then the community,
29:16you know,
29:16my sense is,
29:17would be having,
29:18some kind of,
29:19mechanism,
29:20which you really don't know,
29:21to take care,
29:22of you know,
29:22those emotions,
29:23or things like that.
29:25Or, you know,
29:26I will be continuously,
29:27if you are also talking,
29:28about community,
29:29it can be very different,
29:30that one means,
29:30that I am actually,
29:31in a community,
29:32where everyone has to,
29:33for their own selves,
29:34kind of thing.
29:35So,
29:35I don't have this,
29:37experience of lack.
29:38Another thing is,
29:39that I am actually,
29:40in a community,
29:41where I see,
29:41that there is no one,
29:42from my family,
29:43who is supporting me,
29:44but my,
29:44you know,
29:45neighborhood guy,
29:46when I once hit him,
29:47his entire family comes,
29:49and they, you know,
29:49beat me up.
29:51That's kind of very,
29:52also a very different thing,
29:54you know,
29:54that this,
29:54sense of lack,
29:56it is,
29:57once again,
29:58it's not so much about,
30:00what practice is being happening,
30:01it's about that,
30:03how a person,
30:04is getting a sense of lack,
30:05right?
30:06Sense of?
30:07Sense of lack,
30:08sense of lack,
30:08that this person felt,
30:11lack of,
30:12lack of support for him.
30:15So,
30:15that's what it is about.
30:17As that proof,
30:18lot of them say through,
30:19and that's,
30:20that's an apple proof,
30:21but, lot of them,
30:21I was just wondering,
30:22the numbers would be up these days,
30:23because,
30:24lot of them get stuck,
30:25without being able to,
30:27go out there,
30:28paint for yourself,
30:29and not even,
30:30help.
30:31Right.
30:32See,
30:32also,
30:33I think,
30:33one,
30:33another very important thing,
30:35is that,
30:35in general,
30:36support systems,
30:37they are,
30:38you know,
30:39no one actually has a time,
30:40to,
30:41hear someone at learning,
30:42you know,
30:42and to,
30:43you know,
30:44understand what they are going through,
30:45you know,
30:45it's more of that,
30:47quick fix action,
30:48you know,
30:49so,
30:50I,
30:50I feel that that's like,
30:52a very important pattern,
30:53because,
30:53you know,
30:53you know,
30:53what we simply,
30:54at times,
30:55do inside,
30:55because,
30:56it takes you,
30:57just help them,
30:57to deal with their emotions,
30:59and that,
31:00you know,
31:00helps them to go back to,
31:02you know,
31:02and resume the,
31:04process of their,
31:05So,
31:06many times,
31:06they are not doing,
31:07very exceptional things,
31:08they are doing something,
31:09very basic,
31:10which has not been done.
31:13Right.
31:14And,
31:15what happens is,
31:17that,
31:17as I said,
31:17when this vulnerability spot is triggered,
31:20you know,
31:20one feels a threat of self annihilation,
31:23one feels a certain sense,
31:25you know,
31:25that my self would be lost,
31:27it would be kind of,
31:28you know,
31:29there is some danger to my existence,
31:31and the person then,
31:32goes into a self-protective mode.
31:34So,
31:35when someone is in self-protective mode,
31:37then they simply,
31:38you know,
31:38work for their survival,
31:40they don't give a damn to what is really happening,
31:42you know,
31:43and,
31:43they,
31:44they then can't really so much understand,
31:46the other person's perspective,
31:47because,
31:48they are so much self-focused,
31:49you know,
31:49they are so much,
31:50they are so much,
31:51they are very serious,
31:51you know,
31:53and,
31:54you know,
31:55this,
31:56vulnerability is also something that,
31:58we,
31:58you know,
31:59people who are in general,
32:01not vulnerable,
32:01we are also put in a very extreme situation,
32:04where there is a,
32:04threat to our sense of self,
32:06kind of thing,
32:06you know,
32:07we also behave in such ways.
32:08You know,
32:09to give you one example,
32:10you know,
32:11that this,
32:11uh,
32:13person who was a,
32:14bomb blast victim,
32:15and he,
32:15came to me with a lot of guilt,
32:17because,
32:18otherwise,
32:18he was a very helpful person,
32:20very active in social work.
32:22But,
32:22you know,
32:22when this,
32:23when there was this bomb blast at CP,
32:25in 2008,
32:27so,
32:27what he did was,
32:28he really panicked,
32:30that he would like to die,
32:31so what he did was,
32:32he actually,
32:33you know,
32:34actually ran,
32:35on people who were bleeding,
32:37and who were,
32:37you know,
32:38the victims of their blast,
32:39so,
32:39you know,
32:40taking himself out from that soul.
32:42So,
32:43such a naive-hearted person,
32:44at that point of time,
32:45was in a total self-reservation mode,
32:48you know,
32:49and so,
32:49uh,
32:50that's what happens with people,
32:52psychologically.
32:53There are some people who,
32:55if they are feeling very vulnerable from inside,
32:57then they will always be in that kind of mode,
32:59and any slight thing,
33:00would kind of,
33:01make them work it out.
33:06Right.
33:07Uh,
33:09in general,
33:10you know,
33:10when someone's vulnerability is activated,
33:12and I am sure,
33:13that people also have these experiences,
33:15that when someone,
33:16at times,
33:17is in an experience of rage,
33:19and you are trying to reason out with them,
33:20you are trying to make them understand that,
33:22you know,
33:22that was not what I meant,
33:24you know,
33:25and you simply,
33:26have this experience,
33:27that as if you are speaking to a wall,
33:29you know,
33:29as if nothing goes inside this person,
33:32this person remains,
33:33you know,
33:35adamant,
33:35you know,
33:37not listening to you,
33:38simply saying,
33:39saying, saying,
33:40you know,
33:40banging it through time.
33:42So that's what also happens,
33:43that when people feel vulnerable,
33:45and they go in a self-preservation mode,
33:47you know,
33:47their rational thoughts,
33:49their actions,
33:51they kind of,
33:52you know,
33:52they don't function properly.
33:53What they are simply doing is,
33:54they are simply,
33:56evacuating,
33:58they are simply throwing out there,
33:59or,
34:00evacuating their internal emotional experience,
34:03by making you feel that,
34:04you know,
34:04so,
34:05what you have made them feel,
34:07they are simply,
34:07you know,
34:08by abusing you,
34:09by criticizing you,
34:10they are simply,
34:11giving you a taste of that,
34:13you know,
34:13that,
34:13what you did to me,
34:15I am kind of,
34:15giving you that.
34:16Please, please.
34:17I just have a comment here,
34:19there is actually a biological reason for that.
34:22Biological reason for that?
34:24See,
34:24I am not a very good person,
34:25as far as biology is concerned.
34:26If you can enlighten us on that,
34:28that would be great.
34:28So,
34:29I'll just take a minute to talk about it.
34:32The biology behind this is that the neocortex shuts down,
34:35which is our thinking brain,
34:37and then the amygdala gets triggered,
34:38which is our fight-or-flight response.
34:40And,
34:41once the amygdala gets triggered,
34:43it takes at least 20 minutes,
34:45for the neocortex to kick back up again.
34:49So,
34:49when somebody tells you,
34:50you're not listening to me,
34:52or you're not understanding what I'm saying,
34:54that's very true.
34:56Yeah.
34:57Because your thinking brain has shut down.
34:59Right.
34:59There's no,
35:00there's no oxygen,
35:01there's no blood flow,
35:03um,
35:03there's nothing,
35:04um, triggering the mechanism,
35:06via which you make meaning,
35:08or you understand things.
35:09That was awesome.
35:10Thanks for your contribution.
35:12Could you,
35:14I'll end with a question.
35:15Yeah.
35:15Can you please explain what she said,
35:17you know,
35:17before I thought.
35:18Absolutely.
35:19I can't think of that.
35:23But,
35:23but,
35:23but,
35:24but,
35:24you have acknowledged her contribution,
35:26you know.
35:26Yeah.
35:26You only acknowledge her contribution.
35:28That means you have understood what she has said.
35:30Okay.
35:32What I'm saying is that,
35:33I'm going to get a,
35:34just not critical,
35:35that's what I mean to you,
35:37that,
35:37I think that,
35:38what she said is that,
35:40when we are feeling threatened,
35:42kind of thing,
35:43we go into this,
35:44you know,
35:45classic fight or flight mode,
35:47that when we,
35:48when there's a certain danger to a sense of self,
35:50we either run away from that,
35:52uh,
35:53or we kind of,
35:54fight that situation.
35:56And,
35:57at that point of time,
35:58the areas of brain,
36:00you know,
36:07that are being,
36:11you know,
36:11that are being kind of,
36:12you know,
36:12lit at that point of time,
36:14or,
36:14which happen more,
36:15you know,
36:16you know,
36:17you know,
36:17you know,
36:17you know,
36:17you know,
36:18you know,
36:21you know,
36:26they speak better English,
36:28you know,
36:28I mean,
36:29their logic is sometimes better than,
36:31it's,
36:31it's otherwise there.
36:32See,
36:32it's not so much,
36:33you know,
36:34when we are talking about these processes,
36:36it's not so much about,
36:38uh,
36:38what is being said,
36:39it's about that,
36:41is the person open to thinking,
36:43and reflecting on what has happened,
36:45you know,
36:46or they are so much focused on their own perspective,
36:48that,
36:48you know,
36:49what generally happens is,
36:50the person,
36:51uh,
36:53is kind of,
36:54uh,
36:55like,
36:55in some places,
36:57what they are holding on to,
36:58they are holding on to that,
36:59you know,
36:59they will not really use that.
37:00They may not be logically.
37:01Yeah.
37:01So,
37:02that's what we are saying.
37:03It's a whole strategy,
37:05you need to be in that direction.
37:06Yeah.
37:07Just one small question.
37:08Yeah.
37:08Very good.
37:10But,
37:11can this biological reason,
37:13be used as a defense,
37:15when someone's maybe,
37:16didn't offense?
37:17Can this biological reason,
37:19be used that,
37:19you know,
37:20we are thinking,
37:21not thinking,
37:25see,
37:25that's a very,
37:26uh,
37:29interesting debate,
37:29and I had,
37:30you know,
37:31the,
37:31I think two months back,
37:33I had been on,
37:35a conference,
37:36which was on,
37:37forensic psychology,
37:38where I was,
37:38speaking from the clinical perspective,
37:40and we had people,
37:41who are interested in psychology,
37:42and that's the debate,
37:44that happened between us.
37:45You know,
37:45because they are more on the law side,
37:46we are more on the individual person's side,
37:48and more in law side is there.
37:50So,
37:50you are on the law side.
37:51So,
37:51then,
37:51let's not get into a debate about it.
37:53I will ask you if I can use a different defense.
37:56No,
37:56not as of now.
37:58Not as of now.
37:59Not as of now.
37:59Not as of now.
38:00See,
38:01and also,
38:02yeah,
38:04and it's also that,
38:05when we are saying,
38:06you know,
38:06when we are saying that,
38:07let's understand violence,
38:08you know,
38:08we are not saying that,
38:10let's leave the guilt,
38:12you know,
38:12that,
38:13you know,
38:13that,
38:14we are not saying that they should be spot free,
38:17or something like that.
38:18We are simply saying,
38:18I mean,
38:19that,
38:19I understand that the law has to be,
38:21own it,
38:22and they have their own,
38:23but we are simply saying,
38:24that we are trying to understand why it happened.
38:26Right.
38:27So,
38:27if children are diagnosed with attention deficit disorder,
38:32right,
38:33in the childhood,
38:34does it lead to that baby with an adult?
38:39Though,
38:40I have two,
38:41three colleagues who are,
38:41you know,
38:41specializing in child psychology,
38:43they can be better answers,
38:44but,
38:45as far as,
38:46I know that there has,
38:47there have been two relational studies,
38:49which have found that,
38:50childhood diagnosis of ADHD,
38:51is linked to,
38:53you know,
38:53more conduct problems,
38:54and personality problems,
38:56in adult life.
38:57That's what I know.
38:59I hope you have adequate time to deal with psychoanalytic therapy,
39:02though,
39:02because,
39:02yeah,
39:03it's more important.
39:04Yes.
39:04So,
39:06let's just rush.
39:06Thanks for reminding us.
39:07Can we show some light on this?
39:11I think,
39:12it's more of an individual question,
39:13so I,
39:14you know,
39:14when you begin to take it,
39:15at the end of this,
39:16you know,
39:16because,
39:17if you go into ADHD,
39:19and,
39:19you know,
39:19stuff,
39:20then it's like,
39:20going to Skype,
39:21different,
39:21actually.
39:22Yeah.
39:27Right.
39:28So,
39:32before we go on,
39:34like,
39:34that is also a very important aspect,
39:38too,
39:38because I have also worked with,
39:39quite a few people who have been,
39:41you know,
39:42victims of trauma,
39:43you know.
39:43So,
39:44that's one very common phenomenon,
39:46you know.
39:47In general,
39:48it's always a surprise to come across as this thing,
39:51because when someone is undergoing abuse or trauma,
39:53you know,
39:53what they really think is,
39:55you know,
39:55I will never do this with someone,
39:57I am never going to repeat,
39:59you know.
39:59And yet,
40:00there have been,
40:01you know,
40:01cases,
40:02there have been,
40:04researches,
40:04which also show,
40:05that people who have some abuse,
40:07they also,
40:09you know,
40:09many times turn into abuse,
40:11this kind of thing,
40:11you know.
40:11It's not a norm,
40:12but it does happen.
40:17It's a mother-in-law thing also similar.
40:23It is.
40:23It is.
40:26Thanks for adding that humor to such a serious topic.
40:31It is good there are not many mothers-in-law here,
40:33you know.
40:34Yeah.
40:35Right.
40:37To,
40:37you know,
40:38to kind of,
40:39tell you about this thing,
40:41I had once this,
40:42it was very interesting,
40:43in case,
40:44who actually used to,
40:46kind of,
40:49who actually used to,
40:51molest children,
40:52kind of thing,
40:52you know.
40:53Who used to molest children,
40:54but he came into therapy,
40:56not because of that,
40:57he came into therapy,
40:58because he was having a hard time in his relationships,
41:00you know,
41:01so he wanted to work on that.
41:03When I was kind of,
41:04you know,
41:05taking his history with this person,
41:07I was, you know,
41:07simply talking to him about childhood,
41:09so he told me,
41:10I have had very interesting sexual experiences in childhood,
41:13so I was very alerted with that,
41:15and I said,
41:15what do you mean by that?
41:17You have, you know,
41:17very interesting sexual experiences in childhood.
41:20And what I heard was,
41:21what I heard was,
41:22very traumatic,
41:23long term abuse,
41:24kind of thing.
41:25But when this person was talking about it,
41:27he was, you know,
41:28very chipped about that,
41:29he was very rude about that,
41:31you know,
41:31and he was, you know,
41:32simply saying that,
41:32no, no, no,
41:33it was,
41:34I, in fact,
41:35also kind of,
41:35you know,
41:36asked him that,
41:37you know,
41:37do you think that,
41:38you know,
41:39you know,
41:40that was perfectly fine,
41:42I enjoyed it,
41:43I had a very good time,
41:44you know,
41:45and,
41:45you know,
41:46this person was also kind of,
41:47you know,
41:48obviously going on,
41:48abusing,
41:50other children also,
41:51not so severely,
41:52but,
41:53like,
41:53he wants that.
41:55So,
41:57and,
41:58you know,
41:59what really happened is,
42:01that he took us,
42:02quite many sessions,
42:04for this person to come to this point,
42:06where you could feel,
42:07the rage,
42:08and the pain,
42:09and where you could actually come to this point of saying that,
42:12I was abused,
42:13you know,
42:13it was not a,
42:13it was not a sexual,
42:15it was not a mutually sexual,
42:17satisfying sexual experience,
42:18I was abused.
42:20What happened is,
42:22what generally happens is,
42:23whenever we encounter a traumatic experience,
42:26we need to experience,
42:29and integrate those negative feelings,
42:32into the rest of our memory,
42:34and into our sense of self,
42:35in presence of people,
42:37who are very empathic,
42:39and who will give us that space,
42:41and emotional support,
42:42right?
42:43So,
42:43that's the norm,
42:44you know,
42:44whenever anyone has a trauma,
42:47you know,
42:47whether it's like,
42:48you know,
42:49it can be abuse,
42:51it can be,
42:52armed violence,
42:53it can be state violence,
42:54it can be forced migration,
42:56various kinds of things,
42:58so that they need,
42:59to really,
43:00mourn that loss,
43:01to experience those emotions,
43:03to integrate them,
43:03you know,
43:04the rest of their life,
43:05in presence of people,
43:07who are like,
43:07very supportive,
43:08who give them that space,
43:10and who have that much of patience.
43:15If this does not happen,
43:17and you know,
43:18by bad luck,
43:21that really does not happen,
43:23you know,
43:23very frequently,
43:24right?
43:25If this does not happen,
43:27then,
43:27then the,
43:28then the strong-sized person,
43:30or child,
43:30they have really no real,
43:33odd,
43:33symbolic angle,
43:34to hold on.
43:35And there's a lot of fear,
43:37and dread inside,
43:38right?
43:39So,
43:39when one is feeling very scared,
43:41and dreadful inside,
43:42you know,
43:43in order to feel safe,
43:44they just need to hold on to what is ideal.
43:48And,
43:49interestingly what happens is,
43:50that these people,
43:52because they are very close,
43:54in very close contact with the abuser,
43:56or with the aggressor,
43:58they actually hold on to the aggressor.
44:01Holding on to the aggressor means,
44:02that they identify,
44:04you know,
44:04that they identify with what's the aggressor saying,
44:08doing,
44:08you know,
44:09right?
44:09the aggressor,
44:10and they also identify with,
44:12what's the aggressor,
44:14you know,
44:14the view that the aggressor has of their own self.
44:17You know,
44:18so,
44:18for instance,
44:19you know,
44:20I have seen people that,
44:22you know,
44:23that they,
44:23kind of, you know,
44:25after the abuser experience,
44:26they live on with the sense,
44:27that I am a very,
44:29you know,
44:29that I am a very bad child,
44:31or I am a very bad person,
44:32kind of thing.
44:33Generally,
44:34this is what the abuser,
44:36you know,
44:36would have kind of,
44:37you know,
44:38told them,
44:38or this is the way that the abuser would have treated them,
44:41right?
44:42But,
44:43they identify with this stance,
44:45you know,
44:45they identify with the abuser,
44:49you know,
44:49and,
44:50that's what happens, you know,
44:51that person who makes the threat,
44:53you know,
44:54so,
44:54that's something that people generally do,
44:56in order to survive through these situations,
45:00but,
45:01this is something that simply keeps the cycle of abuse,
45:05violence,
45:05and trauma ongoing,
45:07you know,
45:07the abuse,
45:08kind of,
45:09you know,
45:10returns back as the abuser.
45:17Right?
45:18And so,
45:19what happens is that,
45:20whenever this person is threatened internally,
45:23you know,
45:23so,
45:24rather than feeling vulnerable,
45:26they invoke identification with the aggressor as the,
45:30the abuser,
45:31and,
45:31they start beginning very aggressively,
45:34they will fold on to the views,
45:35to the ideology,
45:36to the thoughts of this aggressive person.
45:49And,
45:49by this,
45:50what they do is that,
45:51throughout,
45:51they place the vulgarable feelings,
45:54outside of them into the abuser,
45:55So identification with aggressors is also a defence that helps you to make very powerful
46:01because you say that you know that I am not vulnerable one, vulnerable and weak is someone else
46:07you know he or she is the other person.
46:09This defence also operates at you know many times at a very large social level also and
46:15in you know groups sector as well.
46:18For instance if you look at you know the bullying that happens in schools.
46:22So it is generally that a class would have one or two very bad bullies who would be bullying
46:28one or two very weak children in the class.
46:31But there is a culture of silence in the entire class and many a times we see that people who
46:37otherwise are quite sympathetic and kind you know they join these aggressors you know.
46:42So this defence also operates at you know many a times in the groups.
46:50Right.
46:51Coming to the last part because we have you know largely talked about violence apart from
46:57you know passive aggression which is like you have termed to be self but I would also like
47:02to briefly reflect on various forms of self destructive behaviours and suicide.
47:15So one reason why people do any kind of self destructive behaviour is to take a revenge.
47:22You know like I was talking about this person who was an under achiever.
47:26So the person typically behaves like this that you know she thinks that if I destroy myself
47:32I will get my revenge on you.
47:35You will feel like a failure and you will live with shame or guilt throughout your life.
47:39You know so that's one form of it.
47:42Another reason is that self destructive behaviour has pathological moulding.
47:48You know that you know that this has more to do with suicide and you know such other phenomena.
47:57That if we are very attached to some person and that person you know separates from us
48:01leaves us kind of thing.
48:03Then we feel a lot of rage towards this lost person but we also kind of you know want to
48:10somehow unite with this person kind of thing you know.
48:14And that's you know many times what leads to such self destructive behaviours.
48:20You know that when you can't express your rage towards another person you directly
48:23it on your own self.
48:27Another reason for self destructive behaviour is that it can be the reaction to the abuser.
48:32You know people who have been through very severe abuse they operate on this philosophy
48:38because what is most difficult about abuse is that you are passive.
48:42You know you can't do something.
48:44You are on the mercy of someone else.
48:46So what this person typically thinks at that point of time is that I am being abused by this person.
48:51The last thing that I can do is you know atleast to save my healing routine,
48:55to save my sense of self is that fine if this person wants to hit me, kill me, okay.
49:00You know I will kill my own sin.
49:02I will atleast not allow this person to do this thing.
49:04So that's another reason behind self destructive behaviour.
49:08It's a reaction to the abuser.
49:10You know that you don't have to do it for me.
49:11I will kill my own self.
49:13I will destroy my own self.
49:16And then there is also a form of self destructive behaviour which is you know which aims to punish
49:26one's own self out of guilt.
49:28You know that if I love someone but if I also feel a lot of rage towards that person
49:33then I many a times you know feel very guilty for this rage.
49:38You know that there is this person who has done so much for me and I love this person
49:42but I am feeling very angry towards this person.
49:45So I start feeling guilty you know for my rage and I then start punishing my own self.
50:01It's when I will scratch my or alayhi.
50:16And not be angry this person will have not also run the issue, so that I am feeling
50:20so sorry once sometimes, it is 10 months later.
50:22So that means it'll be
50:22A nine-year-old was displaying pathological, psychopathic behavior, where the child was being interviewed and being filmed.
50:33And through some things when the child was interviewed and the child asked the person, did you tape that?
50:40So whatever he said, because it was relating to his younger brother, that he'd get even with him.
50:46So the person said, yes, that's just been taped.
50:49At that point, the child didn't display any emotion, didn't react.
50:55When there was a diversion of attention, he quickly went and erased that section that had been taped.
51:03So that nine-year-old knew at what stage to get back, not only to his younger brother,
51:10but also to be able to, in a cold and calculated manner, be able to erase the taping of that.
51:17Right, so the kind of nine-year-old, they are very sharp, obviously.
51:23As far as this question, I think anger is a very inherent, normal, natural response.
51:32And then you were talking in terms of the very primitive action that was in defense.
51:36That then you are going to really just kick, you know?
51:38I think that's, you know, right from the world, I suppose.
51:41Yeah. Or maybe before that, I'll do it.
51:44No, that's also.
51:45Yeah.
51:46Also, we have an increasingly produced environment for catching the Indian as well as rage, wasn't it?
51:52And as things are, as of now, we have our own stories, we are not going to, you know,
51:58quote something.
51:58Right, right.
51:59We have enough of them displaying everything.
52:01We have a lot happening in the Indian, you know, all the metropolitan cities.
52:05Yeah.
52:13One reason.
52:15One reason.
52:15Yeah.
52:16Violence can also be triggered by dark emotions like greed, sex, jealousy, hedge-wake, and dominance,
52:23you know?
52:24That can also be, because you see from time immemorials, you see that war is also a kind of violence.
52:29Right.
52:30So, you know, dominate and, you know, just to, you know, kings, you know, just to, you know,
52:34They just need to plan the, you know, and kill people.
52:37So, you know, dominate and just, you know, enlarge the kingdom.
52:42So, what is your take on this?
52:45Okay.
52:48See, as far as these emotions are concerned.
52:52Like, see, when we are talking about greed, you know, and sex and all these things,
52:57these are what we call a manic defense, you know, that when someone is doing, you know,
53:03things in a very high moment, kind of, you know?
53:06And generally, you know, people get into high moment, you know, because they are trying
53:11to run away from, you know, something which is very sad from inside.
53:15And we can also talk about, you know, aggression happening and violence happening on a very large
53:21scale.
53:21So, you know, there is this author you could read, Stuart Demelon.
53:26It is written very beautifully on, you know, how, you know, how when the situation is right,
53:33you know, how individual traumas can be triggered, kind of thing, you know, to join into a bigger,
53:39you know, kind of a social event.
53:42If you also look, you know, though I would be really digressing a lot, it's quite wonderful,
53:47but if you also look at who these various, you know, armed group royals, or Muslim royals,
53:54or whatever, it's like this, or, you know, these regimens where you have, you know, terrorism,
54:00or dictatorship, the way it is told to people is that, you know, that you were very wonderful,
54:06everything was very fine, you know, in your life, your state was good, your country was
54:11good, but then these people came, and everything was, you know, plundered, and now you are in
54:15a very disadvantaged situation.
54:17So, many times people play, you know, on individual experiences of victimization to create that
54:24kind of manic hide, you know, where people can then, you know, start, you know, going into
54:30that case, but, you know, your question is, like, very complex and in-depth, and I will
54:36show you that, you know, we could do a complete, you know, program on, you know, the collective trauma.
54:46Yeah, you understand.
54:47But because...
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