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00:09Este é o programa, eu estou Stefan Grobe.
00:10Meu guest hoje é o ministro de Foreign Affairs e Foreign Trade
00:13de Nord-Macedonia, Timcho Mosunzky,
00:17que está em Brasília para um informal meeting
00:19com seus companheiros de EU para discutir
00:21o bloco de relations com os Estados Unidos.
00:23Obrigado por virar o show, ministro.
00:25Obrigado por ter convidado e por nos ajudar a trazer
00:29a consciência de por que os Estados Unidos
00:30são importantes para não só a União Europeia,
00:32mas para os cidadãos da União Europeia.
00:34Meu prazer.
00:35Now, Nord-Macedonia changed its name
00:38to unlock EU accession talks,
00:42yet membership still feels distant.
00:46Do many citizens now feel the EU broke its promises?
00:50So, what is a very stark reminder
00:52is that our country received candidate status
00:55together with Croatia in 2005.
00:57It has been over 21 years since that moment.
01:01We received the first recommendation
01:03for opening accession negotiations in 2009,
01:06yet still we haven't opened accession negotiations.
01:09Now, throughout all of these struggles,
01:14throughout the very difficult decisions
01:16that have been made within our country,
01:20what one can first conclude is that,
01:22and many here would be very surprised,
01:25is that there is still a huge support
01:27for the EU path in our country.
01:29Over 70% of our citizens support EU membership
01:34and support the EU accession process,
01:36with the caveat being that many of these citizens
01:40who are pro-EU, both in values and faith and so forth,
01:44don't believe that the door will actually open.
01:47And this is where we need,
01:49together with the member states,
01:50together with the European Union,
01:52to prove that this is not the fact.
01:54There have been countless constitutional changes,
01:57mostly related to identity issues,
01:59and still we haven't had the right
02:02to open accession negotiations.
02:03You still believe that the whole enlargement process
02:06is merit-based or purely political?
02:09So, first of all,
02:11one of the things that we have to agree on
02:13is that Europe cannot afford strategic ambiguity
02:17in the Western Balkans anymore.
02:19Until very recently,
02:21I think it was perceived
02:22that the process of European enlargement
02:26was a process where the ball
02:28was only in the court of the candidate countries.
02:31But this is not, you know,
02:32it's not a solo match.
02:33It's a process that requires fairness,
02:35it requires predictability,
02:37but it also requires political courage
02:39coming from both sides.
02:41Because it is not just about connectivity,
02:43it is not just about trade and economy,
02:45but what we have now realized
02:47is that enlargement towards the Western Balkans
02:49is also an issue of strategic imperative.
02:53Do you believe that there are some EU countries,
02:55existing members,
02:57who simply do not want the Western Balkans in the EU,
03:01no matter what the reform process is achieving?
03:05This is a very difficult question to answer.
03:08I think strategically,
03:10there is a very broad consensus
03:12among EU member states
03:14that enlargement towards the Western Balkans
03:16has to happen.
03:17There are countries that are principled supporters
03:19that practice what they preach,
03:21and there are only those,
03:23there are some countries
03:24who only say the right things
03:25but don't follow up enough.
03:27And this is where we need
03:29maybe a stronger consensus.
03:31But what I can say is that on our part,
03:34we will do our side of the obligation,
03:36and that is delivering on reforms.
03:38We are one of the three countries,
03:39together with Montenegro and Albania,
03:41that are delivering on the reform agenda,
03:43which is very concrete and solid proof
03:45that internally we are moving forward
03:47when it comes to EU-related reforms.
03:50And we are also a country
03:51that is 100% aligned
03:53with the European Union's
03:54common foreign and security policy,
03:56the CFSP.
03:57And even going beyond that,
03:58we have a security and defense partnership
04:00with the European Union.
04:01Now, how damaging is the ongoing dispute
04:03with Bulgaria over language and history
04:07to your country's accession bid?
04:10Is it the main roadblock
04:13on the path to the EU?
04:15Sadly, yes.
04:17And at the loss of both our country,
04:19but the loss of Bulgaria,
04:21the loss of the whole region.
04:23What I think that Bulgaria must do
04:25is that it must recognize
04:27the strategic moment
04:28while it still exists.
04:30And I think and I hope
04:32that Bulgaria will recognize
04:34the possibilities that exist,
04:36that it will open dialogue with us.
04:39Is there a red line for North Macedonia?
04:42A moment when you say
04:43no more delays,
04:44no more concessions?
04:45First of all,
04:47like I said,
04:47we will continue to do everything
04:49that is necessary
04:49on our European path
04:51to be the best candidate possible.
04:53But on the other hand,
04:55we are not prepared
04:56to negotiate
04:57on issues that are related
04:59to our national identity,
05:01our national history,
05:03and our language.
05:05Sadly,
05:06the narrative that has been created
05:08and pushed forward from Sofia,
05:09these are debates for historians,
05:11these are debates for academics.
05:13Let them discuss
05:15and let them speak
05:16on the basis of objective facts.
05:18The role of politicians and leaders
05:20should be to be forward-looking,
05:21to be speaking about issues
05:23that unite us.
05:24So if you're asking us,
05:25do we have red lines?
05:27Of course we do,
05:28because we do not believe
05:29that this is a narrative
05:30and a debate
05:31that should be ongoing
05:32in 21st century Europe.
05:34If EU accession keeps stalling,
05:37do you fear that North Macedonia
05:39would drift towards
05:40the orbit of countries
05:44like Russia, China, Turkey?
05:46What is a fact is
05:48that hybrid threats
05:51thrive
05:51where frustration grows
05:53and where trust arose.
05:55This is a fact.
05:57What is also a fact
05:59is that there is
05:59a severe amount
06:00of malign influence
06:01in our entire region
06:03coming not just from Russia,
06:05but also from China as well.
06:07This is a reality
06:08that we all have to face
06:10and we all have to live with.
06:11But what I can tell you
06:12is that we are a country
06:13that is westward-looking.
06:15We are a country
06:16that is proud
06:17to be a member of NATO,
06:18whose troops contribute
06:20in NATO missions
06:21from the Baltics
06:22to the Balkans.
06:23We are a country
06:25that prides itself
06:26in being pro-European,
06:28not just in rhetoric,
06:29but in the values
06:30that we implement
06:31within our society.
06:33So while the threat
06:34does exist,
06:35what I can tell you
06:36is that as a country
06:38we have proven
06:38not only to say
06:40that we are resilient,
06:41but to be resilient
06:42in practice.
06:43Imagine a country
06:44that for over 20 years
06:46has been forced
06:47to do many things
06:49for the promise
06:50of a European future,
06:52from constitutional changes
06:53several times
06:54to even the change
06:55of the name,
06:56as you said,
06:57and has not received delivery
06:59from European institutions,
07:01but has still remained
07:03extremely pro-European.
07:05On NATO,
07:06North Macedonia
07:07has been a member
07:08since 2020.
07:09now has the membership
07:12delivered the benefits,
07:16security and political benefits
07:18people expected?
07:20So NATO is without a doubt
07:23the strongest
07:24collective security community
07:26that civilization has known
07:28and will probably know.
07:29And in that sense,
07:31what it has provided
07:32for our country
07:33is much needed stability
07:35in a region
07:36that is extremely volatile.
07:38and we are now
07:39in the past several years
07:41a security provider
07:42from the region.
07:43You see that
07:43through our presence
07:44in the EU-led Althea mission
07:45in Bosnia-Herzegovina,
07:47our role in the KFOR mission
07:49in Kosovo.
07:50And in that sense,
07:52we are also
07:52a very committed ally.
07:55We are a country
07:56that is moving
07:57in its defense expenditures.
07:59If you ask me
08:00the fundamental question
08:01of is NATO membership
08:04positive for the future
08:05of the country,
08:06for creating
08:07a good investment climate
08:08but also a clearer
08:10strategic outlook,
08:11without a doubt
08:12my answer will be.
08:12How do you see
08:13the current discussion
08:13about the future of NATO
08:15with America threatening
08:16to withdraw, etc., etc.?
08:18What does that inspire in you?
08:20My view is that
08:21thanks to President Trump,
08:23Secretary Rubio,
08:24and the entire
08:24foreign policy apparatus
08:26of the United States,
08:27NATO is stronger
08:28than it has ever been.
08:29This is undeniable
08:30coming out of last year's
08:31summit in The Hague.
08:33We now have
08:34in about a month or so
08:35another summit in Ankara
08:37where we are due
08:37to take stock
08:38of what we've achieved
08:39in the last year.
08:41But through U.S. leadership,
08:43NATO received
08:44a wake-up call.
08:44We have all committed
08:46to 5% by 2035,
08:48which is a very ambitious agenda,
08:51but also a very necessary agenda,
08:53considering not only
08:54the threat that we have
08:55from the Russian aggression
08:56against Ukraine,
08:57which is still ongoing,
08:58but threats in the Indo-Pacific,
09:00threats in the Middle East.
09:02So in that sense,
09:04if you ask me,
09:04NATO is stronger
09:05than it's ever been.
09:07There will be disagreements
09:08between member states,
09:09as there have been
09:10in the past.
09:12But if you look
09:13at the fundaments,
09:15following the Hague summit,
09:16through U.S. leadership,
09:18we are at a point
09:19where the alliance
09:20is stronger
09:21than it's ever been.
09:22North Macedonia
09:23has recently signed
09:24a trade agreement
09:24with the United States
09:26that eliminates
09:27all customs duties
09:29on U.S. industrial
09:30and agricultural products.
09:33How is that playing out
09:34for the Macedonian,
09:36North Macedonian economy?
09:37So, the United States
09:39is an important trading partner,
09:41with, of course,
09:42the European Union
09:43and its member states
09:44being our key trading partner.
09:46We aim to stimulate
09:48good economic
09:48and trade relationships
09:50with the United States
09:52because the United States
09:53is one of our strategic partners.
09:55We believe that the joint statement,
09:58which will soon lead
09:59to a trade agreement,
10:01is beneficial for both sides.
10:04We have seen movement
10:05in the trade portfolio
10:07between the two countries
10:08in a positive momentum.
10:10Your close ties
10:11to the United States,
10:14could those be a bridge
10:16between Brussels and Washington?
10:18Do you envision
10:19that role in the future?
10:21So, we are a government
10:23that aims to do
10:26all that it can
10:27to move forward
10:29its nation
10:30in the interest
10:31of its citizens.
10:32And that is why
10:32I like to point out
10:33in many of my interviews
10:35that our foreign policy
10:37is built on
10:37three key fundamental pillars.
10:39And that is
10:40our path
10:41towards EU membership
10:42and our alignment
10:44with the CFSP,
10:45our strategic partnership
10:46with the United States,
10:48and being a responsible
10:49ally in NATO.
10:51And it is not always easy
10:53to manage
10:54these three key constants
10:56in a world which,
10:57as we agreed previously,
10:59is very volatile.
11:00But if necessary,
11:04we are always prepared
11:05to help move forward
11:07any process
11:08in relation to
11:10when it is connected
11:12to any key relationship
11:13that we have,
11:14whether it is
11:15with the European Union,
11:17its member states,
11:18and our key strategic ally
11:20in Washington.
11:21We are a small country.
11:23Although what we have
11:24come to understand
11:25is that in this world
11:28we are also a country
11:30that carries properly
11:31its own weight,
11:32no matter how small
11:33sometimes that weight
11:34may seem,
11:35whether it is from
11:36a military
11:36or economic perspective.
11:38and sometimes
11:39small nations
11:40can provide
11:41necessary impetus
11:42when necessary
11:43in various different
11:45constellations.
11:46All right.
11:47Wonderful conclusion.
11:48Kim Chiu-Mutsunski,
11:49the Foreign Minister
11:49of North Macedonia.
11:51Thank you so much
11:52for your time.
11:53Thank you so much
11:54for the privilege
11:55of this interview.
11:55Thank you so much.
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