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Former Pakistan Minister Fawad Chaudhry flips between calling the Afghanistan crisis ‘TTP terrorism from Afghan soil’ and a ‘complex tribal issue’ when defending PTI’s old negotiation policy. In this explosive interview, he dismisses the US Congressional report branding Pakistan a terror hub as ‘Indian lobby inspired,’ and insists Pakistan is now the world’s trusted peacemaker in US-Iran talks, all while justifying cross-border strikes and civilian facility controversies. Raw, contradictory and unfiltered. Watch Pakistan’s former Information Minister defend the indefensible on Durand Line escalation, TTP safe havens and double standards.
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00:04Pakistan government chose to go ahead with launching this operation against Afghanistan back then.
00:10We are facing the terrorism from the other side of the border for a very long time now.
00:19The problem is far more complex. You see this TTP issue has various dimensions.
00:30How is it possible that simultaneously it's offering to play a role of peacemaker when it comes to US and
00:38Iran?
00:38Iran is a totally different issue. Afghanistan is a totally different issue. There is no comparison in between.
00:50Are you still denying that Pakistan's soil is not being used for terrorism or is it not harboring terrorism?
00:57We don't bother what some Indian lobbyist inspired congressman had written about.
01:32Thank you, Mr. Chaudhary for joining us.
01:35Thank you, Mr. Chaudhary for joining us.
01:35Mr. Chaudhary, first I'd like to understand what really panned out back in February of this year.
01:41How it escalated along the Turand line?
01:44What rigored the escalation along the Turand line?
01:47And why did Pakistan government chose to go ahead with launching this operation against Afghanistan back then?
01:56Well, you see this problem of Tariqe Taliban Pakistan or TTP is not new. It's very old and we are
02:06facing the terrorism from the other side of the border for a very long time now.
02:11So, this recent issue, primarily you know that before that there was the government hostile to Pakistan.
02:19But when the Taliban took over, Pakistan's legitimate expectation was that now this TTP issue will be resolved.
02:26Unfortunately, in the last three years, there are around 3,000 Pakistani soldiers, security officials and civilians have been marched
02:37in terrorism, primarily emanating from the areas that constitute Afghanistan borders now.
02:45And Pakistan has actually done all it can to kind of convey their concerns to the Taliban authorities and suggest
02:58that we should move ahead and now these people should be eliminated.
03:02As you know, you know that this whole 2600 kilometer border is very porous. There is a very rugged mountains
03:11and the whole terrain is very difficult.
03:16So, what is happening is that the terrorists, they cross border, they do terrorism and they fled to Afghanistan.
03:24Now, all these, you know, the notorious terrorist organizations, they, not only they have the headquarters in the, in the
03:34areas that constitute Afghanistan, but also the top leaders are there.
03:38So, what Pakistan want is that Taliban authorities should do, should take actions against them and hand them over to
03:45Pakistan.
03:46Pakistan. And if they, and, and, and, and what is, and their view, their vision is actually that they have
03:53their own limitations and they cannot act on their own.
03:56Then Pakistan says that, okay, if you cannot act on your own, then let's have a joint, you know, search
04:03and look for these people and eliminate them.
04:07Now, in the last three years, this issue has gone so forth and forth that they have not been able
04:13to do anything.
04:13So, after these, you know, the terrorist acts recently that Pakistan faced, Pakistan, I feel had no other option because
04:24you see there are internal pressures also.
04:27The Pakistani army people have been assassinated, Pakistani security official has been assassinated.
04:34So, there is a lot of internal pressure also. And Pakistani authorities, I believe, had no other option but to
04:40go for a full-fledged war.
04:44Not, we can't call it war, but...
04:46But your defense minister did call it a war right after the attacks that took place. He did call it
04:54a full-fledged war, that it's a full-fledged war now.
04:58Yeah, I think we can say some, we can name it something else, maybe a succumb issue or an operation,
05:06not the war.
05:07But certainly, I think the situation right now is very close to war. Pakistan has attacked the various, you know,
05:19stationing, various stations of these terrorists and there have been casualties reported.
05:27Let's see how far it can go.
05:30Mr. Chaudhary, while you were answering to this question, you didn't mention about the hostilities and how TTP has gone
05:38rogue and the involvement of the Taliban authorities and the terrorism role here.
05:45So, if you remember, this current government of Pakistan has been constantly accusing PTI, your former party that you've been
05:54associated with in the past, it has accused multiple times PTI, when you were part of it, about this resurgence
06:03of TTP, that they're seeing it today.
06:05What are your views on it? What are your views on it? Because they have accused PTI of appeasement policies,
06:13open negotiations with TTP and Taliban authorities.
06:17So, it has very directly accused PTI and the time specifically when you were part of it. So, how do
06:24you respond to it?
06:25Well, see, unfortunately, in Pakistan and even I think in India, the politics has no limits. So, it really don't
06:36bother, people don't bother that it basically, their statements are against national interest or what.
06:43And this policy of the government is frankly very similar to a very divisive politics of subcontinent as all of
06:51us know.
06:51The problem is not of any party or anything. The problem is far more complex. You see, this TTP issue
07:00has various dimensions.
07:03And frankly, if you would like to know more, you need to spend like an hour with me to understand
07:10that what are the different dimensions and issues involved in this TTP and how it all started and all.
07:19It has, you know, primarily, it's no more a religious war. It's no more a territorial war. It's a very
07:28complex tribal war that is going on.
07:30So, various tribes are actually fighting with each other. Now, these tribes sometimes, some tribes get closer to, you know,
07:40authorities and the other tribes go in offense.
07:45And then they come closer to the authorities and these tribes go to offense. And this, this is a circle
07:52that is, you know, going on.
07:54And then obviously, when there is a situation, there are hostile agencies that also take advantage of that. But primarily
08:04now the issue is the PTI wanted to settle the war through negotiations.
08:10The present regime has absolutely no, I think, I think, clue that how to settle this war because this is
08:19primarily a Pakhtun issue.
08:22KP, the former NWFP areas, those border Afghanistan and it's primarily a very complex Pakhtun issue that we are dealing
08:33with.
08:33There are, and in Pakhtuns also, there are various, you know, when they say that PTI is actually crossing the
08:45limit or hurting national interest by asking the negotiations,
08:50the fact is that there is not a single party in Khyber Pakhtuns that favors operation in those areas.
08:57For example, the Mawlana Faisal Rehman's party, Jama'at, Ulmai Islam, the Pacha Khan's party, ANP, even PTM, all parties,
09:10all parties, those have votes
09:13or the, or the, or the Feeds and the Khyber Pakhtun politics are not in the favor of operation.
09:22Why? Because they believe that merely operations are not enough to solve the issue.
09:29And PTI is also of the same view. They believe that it has to be a negotiations and operations.
09:37Mere operation is not, you know, enough to solve the issue. And I believe what the PTI was doing at
09:45that time was absolutely right.
09:47We had three years of peace in Khyber Pakhtun and we owe it to the policy of PTI.
09:54Even now, when the government, I don't know what is their policy now, who they are in touch with.
10:01But ultimately, they have to sit with the tribal people. They have to sit with the tribesmen and, you know,
10:07solve the issue.
10:08Now, the problem is, it has obviously exaggerated and gone more complex because USA, while leaving Afghanistan, as USA always
10:16does to countries like us,
10:19or the third world, they have left the huge, you know, plethora of weapons there.
10:27Now, very sophisticated weapons have been left in Afghanistan. And now these, you know, terrorists are using the leftovers of
10:36USA weapons.
10:37And that has actually, you know, kind of given this war a new, I would say, brutality.
10:43And the new, the things that have now been introduced have not been there for years.
10:49So, that is a problem. Ultimately, I think PTI policy was right. And ultimately, this government also have to come
10:56on negotiations.
10:58Now that we just mentioned about negotiations, we saw it's everywhere yesterday, China did provide itself as a venue for
11:08the de-escalation talks.
11:09Do you believe that China serves as a neutral spot for such a talk because the world is well aware
11:17of the kind of ties both Pakistan and China share?
11:22In that case, is there any possibility of any kind of credible peace talks when it already shares a very
11:30strong strategic alliance with Pakistan?
11:33On Afghanistan, you see that China is probably the only country that has maintained a very strong economic link with
11:40Afghanistan.
11:41So, they are very keen to invest in Afghanistan, especially in the mining sector. And that is obviously not possible
11:49without peace.
11:50So, Pakistan also want peace in Afghanistan. But we also want a kind of some framework that Afghanistan, you know,
11:59can work within.
12:01I'm so sorry for cutting you in between. Pakistan wants peace in Afghanistan. Just a few weeks back, we saw
12:08how a rehabilitation center was attacked by Pakistan and how the reactions that were followed later to the attack, the
12:21reactions that were followed, how the Pakistani senior ministers had reacted to it.
12:26So, if a nation wanting some sort of peace in their neighbouring country, do you think that's the right kind
12:34of reaction that it requires in that case?
12:37Well, unfortunately, you see, the problem is that these terrorists use human shields as a protection. So, I don't know,
12:48Pakistan has denied that.
12:50If Afghanistan is adamant that civilian facility was attacked, Pakistan has already denied that. And in the war, obviously, you
12:59see, you know, more than anyone else that, you know, it's very difficult to get to the facts because every
13:05side will give their side of the story.
13:07But certainly, war is a bad thing. I will never favour war and no sane mind will, you know, favour
13:15bombing cities. But as I said, told you earlier, what options do you have when 3,000 of your army
13:25security officials, civilians have been martyred this way?
13:29And unfortunately, the authorities are not even willing to cooperate with you. You have very little options to do. But
13:39I think, ultimately, the Chinese intervention into Afghanistan is a very positive thing.
13:45And if they can make Taliban realise the severity of the situation and the seriousness of Pakistan's reactions, that will
13:54help, you know, Taliban to rethink their strategy.
13:59And Pakistan, I think, Pakistan's demands are very fierce. We are not going to claim any territory of Afghanistan. We
14:11do not want anything to do with Afghanistan. We only want them to please hand over the heads of terrorist
14:19organisations living in Afghanistan to us and do something that your lands should not be used to launch operations in
14:28Pakistan.
14:31Do you think in such a scenario, because you just misunderstood my question for what Pakistan trying to do between
14:39United States and Iran as well. Do you think in such a case, Pakistan is playing quite a bit of
14:46a contradictory role when it is already dealing with one of the most severe escalations with Afghanistan in decades?
14:54It's one of the most severe escalations. How is it possible that simultaneously it's offering to play a role of
15:03peacemaker when it comes to U.S. and Iran?
15:07But you see, how can even you make comparison of two situations? Iran is a totally different, you know, issue.
15:14Afghanistan is a totally different issue. There is no comparison in between.
15:18It was the same sort of sentiments towards Iran, how the regime has gone rogue and it could have put
15:28lives in danger. The same kind of sentiments Pakistan has for Afghanistan is just that the nuclear angle is not
15:35there when two wars are concerned or two conflicts are concerned.
15:41No, but you see, Pakistan is playing the role of facilitated on the requests of USA and GCC and also
15:51Iran. So we are not, you know, trying to play a role that has not been ascribed to us by
15:56any of the parties.
15:57Iran has constantly, if you read it, and the statements that have been coming out from the Iranian government side,
16:04they have completely denied to any such talks and negotiations.
16:08So how is it possible that Iran could be pushing for Pakistan to play a role of a peacemaker when
16:15it comes to the war, the West Asia conflict?
16:18No, that's not true. If you see Iran's statement, the last statement that I read, actually the interview of Iranian
16:26foreign minister with Al Jazeera, where they accepted that yes, they have received a 15 points agenda from USA and
16:34they have, you know, they have actually confirmed that they are in touch with USA via Pakistan.
16:42Likewise, the USA has confirmed that the five point agenda given by Iran, they have received that. And as you
16:50know, as Indian media also reported that Witskov and Jerry Vance are continuously in touch and Kushner, or these three
16:57people are in touch with Pakistani authorities to negotiate with Iran and Iran is also, you know, and as you
17:05know, that the four foreign ministers got together in Islamabad, Egypt, Pakistan, Turkey and Saudi Arabia.
17:11And they also discussed the issue. So it's not that yes, the formal negotiations, as you have heard Pakistan's foreign
17:19minister, he himself has said that we are trying for a formal negotiations between Iran and USA in Islamabad.
17:26So once the formal negotiations start, then, you know, your question will be relevant at that point. But at the
17:33moment, Iran has not denied the contest nor does America. So we are actually, Pakistan as a country closer to
17:43Iran and a country that maintains a very good relationship with GCC and USA is doing its bit.
17:49And I think Pakistan has emerged as one of the key players for world peace. And the whole world is
17:56now looking at Pakistan to end this insane war.
18:02If Pakistan really has emerged as one of the key players for world peace, you have just mentioned geographically also,
18:10and diplomatically also, the position of Pakistan, how it's positioned as of now when we speak, when this West Asia
18:18conflict is underway.
18:19It appears that Pakistan offering itself as a nation wherein it can help, you know, help with the West Asia
18:32conflict, it appears that it is not doing it for humanitarian stabilization, rather to strengthen its geopolitical strengthening.
18:43So, what are your views on that and what are strategic objectives clearly here for Pakistan?
18:51First, frankly, I couldn't get you a question that Pakistan is doing that for geopolitical situation and not for humanitarian
18:57reason. I mean, this is, I don't, I don't really get this point.
19:02But the fact is that, you know, that Pakistan has positioned itself as a country that can be trusted by
19:10Iran, that can be trusted by United States and that can be trusted by GCC.
19:15So, this very unique position Pakistan has right now, no other country in the world, probably Egypt is one, or
19:24maybe Turkey to some extent, but the kind of position that Pakistan right now has, no other country has this
19:31advantage and also, you know, because we are neighbors of Iran and being a neighbor of Iran, we have the
19:37different status vis-a-vis this attack.
19:41So, I think right now, the way Pakistan is trying to bring, you know, the peace back to West Asia
19:52is something that the whole world is looking at.
19:54And when you play a role in such kind of, you know, crucial world issues, obviously, the geostrategic position will
20:03be redefined.
20:04And Pakistan has now emerged as one of the key countries that can actually end the war.
20:10And so, everyone is looking at Pakistani leadership for that.
20:14So, how do you define Pakistan's role right now?
20:18Do you see it more as a broker or a mediator?
20:21Because it appears, it's kind of playing a role as if it's just helping with the communication, transmitting messages and
20:31not really identifying itself as a mediator, wherein it can possibly nudge the compromises or help with the outcomes?
20:41That's not really happening here.
20:43So, do you agree with this distinction?
20:46You see, the roles keep on changing.
20:48I think at the moment, Pakistan played a role of facilitator.
20:51But you will see very soon, it will be reshaped as mediator.
20:56Because you always start with facilitator and go on.
20:59First thing at first is that we have to see the seriousness of parties to sit down and talk.
21:05Now, this is obviously in negotiations, this will be the first step.
21:08And I believe that both USA and Iran have shown their willingness to talk.
21:14And that's a huge thing in itself.
21:16Yes, Pakistan has facilitated these messaging between USA and Iran.
21:21And also, I think now the GCC is a player that has now come into this for it.
21:27So, I think the next step will be mediator.
21:31And Pakistan, as if you see the China-Pakistan declaration, we received 15 points from Iran, 5 points from USA,
21:4015 points from USA and 5 points from Iran.
21:43And now we received 5 points from China also, which actually encompass both Indian, both Iranian and American views into
21:56that.
21:56And these 5 points that China and Pakistan have now issues, will be the basis of the talks that will
22:04go on further.
22:06Mr. Chawju, too many factors need to be considered here.
22:10Too many things you have said.
22:11You have mentioned about terrorism or Afghanistan using its soil for terrorism.
22:17And then also, you have shed light on how Pakistan has emerged as a peacemaker in the world conflict.
22:28Now, when we see Pakistan trying to make a ceasefire deal happen between the United States and Iran,
22:38just a few days back, we had a U.S. congressional report which described Pakistan as a hub for terrorist
22:46groups and it's using its soil for terrorism.
22:49In that case, how fair it is for Pakistan to offer itself as a peacemaker in such a conflict?
22:58You see, I don't know in which context this report has mentioned Pakistan as linked with terrorism.
23:07Because if this is an issue of Kashmir, Kashmir is not an Indian territory.
23:14Kashmir is a disputed territory and the people of Kashmir are struggling for freedom.
23:19So, actually, every nation of the world that desires freedom, that actually…
23:26There is no mention about India or Kashmir.
23:29Here, it has openly spoken about Pakistan and how its soil is being used for terrorism.
23:35So, in that case, how do you suggest that Pakistan should offer itself as a peacemaker in any conflict?
23:43And how can it have a say for another country that its soil cannot be used against any such terrorist
23:53act when it comes to Pakistan?
23:54And Pakistan is doing the same thing.
23:56Not at all.
23:58And Pakistan has been trusted by the United States President.
24:01Jodhya, are you forgetting Pulwama attack?
24:04You were the same person who had on record, gone on record in National Assembly.
24:09You had said that it was a success.
24:11And you had, wherein 40 of our soldiers had lost their lives.
24:18You mentioned, you called it a success, a complete success.
24:22And with that, you also said that you hit India.
24:26So, it was a terrorist attack wherein 40 soldiers had lost their lives.
24:30So, are you still denying that Pakistan's soil is not being used for terrorism or is it not harboring terrorism
24:37for that matter?
24:39Okay.
24:40First things first.
24:41First things that you have, you are giving more importance to some unknown US congressional report on Pakistan's link with
24:49terrorism.
24:49But you are giving no credence to the President of the United States of America and you are giving no
24:55credence to the authorities of the United States of America who trust Pakistan to end the war, who trust Pakistan
25:02to play a great role.
25:03So, I think if some congressional report is more important for you, then I hope that the President of the
25:11United States and his thoughts about Pakistan are also important for you.
25:16So, it's something, you know, I think a very political thing.
25:20So, no one bothers about what the congressman has said or whatever.
25:24So, Pakistan has a very close relationship with the United States.
25:28Pakistan has a very close relationship with the, I would say, the decision makers of the world right now.
25:35So, we are not, we don't bother what any, some lobbyist, Indian lobbyist inspired congressman had written what.
25:44So, number one.
25:44Number two, if you have, you know, heard my speech that you referred to me, I am categorically talking about
25:53Operation Swift Red Dot and that is post-Pulwama thing.
25:58Number three, I am very clear that the struggle in Kashmir is a legitimate struggle and every human that, you
26:08know, that gives some currency, some importance to the freedom must end with the people of Kashmir.
26:14And, ultimately, Kashmir will be an independent, will be independent of India.
26:22And Kashmir, see, that's a very conflicted pattern when it comes to Pakistan.
26:29Here, I am talking about terrorism solely functioning from the Pakistani soil.
26:34And you went on to calling an Indian-sponsored report, which was actually a U.S. congressional report.
26:42And then, you also went ahead with the Kashmir.
26:45Then, how wrong are people from Afghanistan who are denying to still acknowledge the Durand line?
26:53And whatever they are doing, how can, when you are doing the same thing, how can you question when Afghanistan
26:59is somewhat, you claim, is doing that to you?
27:03No, because Afghanistan is a settled thing.
27:06I think India and Pakistan were one country when we signed Durand line.
27:11So, it is as sacred for India as for Pakistan.
27:16So, Durand line is an international border.
27:18And this is what both India, Pakistan and the United Nations agree on, number one.
27:28And this is the international law.
27:30Secondly, Afghanistan has no such allegation in Pakistan.
27:36There are no terrorism in Afghanistan.
27:38The problem is, as I said to you, this is a violation of international border territory.
27:44If Afghanistan cannot allow its citizens to cross the border and, you know, do terrorism and come back,
27:51either they have to control the whole episode themselves.
27:55And if they cannot, we have to act.
27:57That's very simple.
27:59Thank you so much, Mr. Tawri, for your time and your views.
28:03And thank you so much for speaking to us.
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