- 12 minutes ago
It’s been 25 years since Dogma first hit cinemas and for most fans, it’s been almost impossible to find since. In this exclusive chat, Kevin Smith reveals why the film vanished, how it's finally coming back, and what’s next for his most controversial cult classic.
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00:00Hello and welcome to What Coach You? With myself, Andrew Pollard. I hope you're good, I hope you're well, I
00:03hope your week is going as well as possible.
00:05My week is going fantastically. As you can see, I'm joined by a very, very special guest today.
00:10The one, the only, the man who helped popularize the number 37 and introduced us to his viewers universe and
00:16beyond, Kevin Smith.
00:17Kevin, how are you?
00:19It's so good. How's the sound? I keep moving the mic around, but I feel like...
00:22Yeah, all good.
00:24Kids, how are you? Such a pleasure.
00:27Yeah, absolute pleasure to get you in that one.
00:29And by the way, if you're looking for some discount Bullwinkle things, this is the discount Bullwinkle market.
00:36Aside from these Buddy Christ posters for the Dogma re-release and whatnot, clearly, I have far too much Bullwinkle.
00:43I like that.
00:44Bears behind me. So, folks, write to kevinsmith at bullwinkle.com and I'll start selling you stuff cheap.
00:51We have no money over here. The economy is falling apart, so I got to start selling everything I got.
00:55Always shilling. I like it. Always working on the hustle.
00:58I mean, there is so much we can talk about with your career, your movies, the small cast stuff, the
01:02live Q&As, the TV work, bringing back Masters of the Universe.
01:05Thank you very much. Comics, books, a bunch of those are sat next to me.
01:09But today, specifically, we're mostly talking about Dogma, which is back in UK and Ireland cinemas from Friday, November 7th
01:16to mark the 25th anniversary of its release.
01:19A phenomenal movie about two fallen angels who were, I guess, essentially trying to exploit a loophole to get themselves
01:25back into heaven for those who may not have seen the movie.
01:27Now, obviously, there was rights issues with Dogma for the longest of time where it became really hard to track
01:32down unless you got that original DVD back in the day, which I was lucky enough.
01:35But how excited are you to bring this now to not just to a new audience, but to the big
01:40screen 25 years later?
01:42I mean, obviously, there'll be old fans like myself who will go and check it out.
01:45But just to have those those new kids who this is like, oh, this is this film I've seen and
01:49what I've heard about for ages.
01:50Now I can watch it in my theater.
01:52You know, I know we're celebrating the 25th on the surface, but it is technically the 26th.
01:58Just like the Catholic Church, we stretch our truth a little bit.
02:01It has been so lovely here stateside to bring it out.
02:06I did a 20 city tour and every night I got to sit there and see some of my favorite
02:11people I've ever worked with at their absolute youngest, for heaven's sakes.
02:16Matt Damon looks like Matt Damon's daughter in this movie.
02:19He's so young.
02:20That's how long ago we made it.
02:22So going out there with the flick every night, I would do an informal straw poll where I'd be like,
02:28how many people have seen Dogma before?
02:30Put your hands together and sounded like almost everybody.
02:32How many people have never seen Dogma in a theater?
02:36Put your hands together.
02:37And then, you know, like half of it.
02:40And I'd say, how many people have never seen Dogma before tonight?
02:44And there would always be like 5% of the audience applauding.
02:48And I'd be like, why the f*** would you overpay to see a movie because I was there with it
02:52that you haven't seen yet and stuff.
02:54So it brought in a small percentage of new folks.
02:58And seeing the returning people for whom, I mean, I watched this movie with my grandmother back when she was
03:04alive.
03:05This was her favorite flick.
03:06Or I watched this movie with the guy that I've been married to now for 20 years.
03:12And, you know, that means that my work as a filmmaker isn't nearly as important as their work as an
03:21audience member or as a fan of the movie.
03:23They carry it in their hearts so much so that 25 years after the fact, when I'm standing there with
03:28the movie going, hey, come see it.
03:30They'll shell out, they'll overpay to see a movie that they could watch on YouTube for free.
03:35So that has everything to do with not so much me and my abilities as a storyteller, but more where
03:42that movie occurred to people in the journey of their lives.
03:46And the longer I'm in this game, the more currency that particular viewer has.
03:54You got to remember, like in the beginning, people were jumping on board.
03:58Nobody knew what was going on.
03:59Will he be good?
04:00You know, will he be a great filmmaker?
04:02No, but he did make a lot of films.
04:04By the time we get to this point in my career, 31 years in, almost every year is like some
04:11anniversary, right?
04:12Like this year, we're saying is the 25th anniversary of Dogma.
04:15And technically, it's the 30th anniversary of Mallrats.
04:19And because of that, like you get to bring these movies back up and you get to see the audience
04:26that has grown with you.
04:27We had two Mallrats screenings at my movie theater.
04:29I got a movie theater in New Jersey, Smog Castle Cinemas.
04:31So last weekend, we did a Mallrats 30th anniversary screening with me and Jay doing a start-stop screening where
04:37you start the movie.
04:38And then after the first scene, you pause, get up.
04:41Both of us tell stories about that one scene.
04:43Then we sit down, unpause, watch the next scene, then pause, get up.
04:48Then we take a 90-minute romp and turn it into a grueling five-hour endurance trial and, you know,
04:54charge six and nine bucks.
04:55So looking out into the audience, it's a sea of faces that look like mine.
05:00You know, like white in the beards, white in the hair, wrinkles, crow's feet.
05:05We're all aging and stuff.
05:07But then it's like a descent into fresh young faces, teenagers, like what the audience used to look like when
05:17I began my journey.
05:18And you realize why they're there.
05:21One will get up and ask a question.
05:22You're like, why would you come see this old man movie?
05:26And like, because my parents, like, used to, you know, make me watch this when I was a kid.
05:32And, you know, you're like, what rep, a disreputable parent, reprobative parent.
05:35And that parent will stand up and be right there with them.
05:39So in the beginning, the journey was all about, like, oh, man, I want to tell these stories for me.
05:44You know, I hope the audience would go along with it.
05:47But it was more about how I felt.
05:49The longer you're in the job, it's way more about how the audience feels.
05:55The movie captures how you felt in a moment in time.
05:58But the audience then dictates how you get to feel about it for the rest of your life.
06:03My audience is making me feel wonderful about Dogma.
06:07So much so that it's beautiful that it's come back and people get to go see the theater.
06:12There'll be a hell of a steel book at the end of the year and stuff.
06:15But for me, this movie never died.
06:17Like, all the movies are active in my life because the characters pop up in other flicks.
06:21Or, you know, like there's an issue of my Quick Stops comic that comes out next week, which is a,
06:26we call it Requiem.
06:27And it's a Metatron re-meets Jay and Silent Bob for the first time in, like, 25 years.
06:34So Matt Damon popped up as Loki in Reboot.
06:38So for me, these movies never end.
06:41You know, like I've said many times, if you're good at your job, the movie begins for the audience long
06:46before they get in the theater.
06:47And if you're a magician at your job, you don't have to let the movie ever end.
06:50You could just keep that experience going.
06:52So in my world, which is easy to manage because it's not everybody.
06:55I don't have, like, Chris Nolan ardent fans.
06:58I have Kevin Smith ardent fans.
07:00But to be able to, like, keep the story going for those cats.
07:05Dogma coming back to the theaters is not only, oh, I get to watch Dogma again.
07:09It's part of the Dogma narrative now.
07:11It's like, oh, my God.
07:12He took it to Cannes twice.
07:14And then I went to see him years later.
07:16He had white in his beard and he was talking about it.
07:19And, you know, suddenly that extends the life of the movie and the longevity of the movie, of course, but
07:27also the legend of the movie.
07:29And sometimes that's something that the filmmaker can't do anything about.
07:34You could help foster it by being available to the audience and stuff.
07:38But the audience is going to decide if stuff lasts.
07:42And my audience decided a long time ago that they were never going to let Dogma go.
07:49So now with the larger audience kind of re-embracing, oh, yeah, I remember that movie.
07:53That's just, you know, whipped cream on top of a ridiculously large sundae full of ice creams that I love
08:00that are vegan with peanut butter poured all over it.
08:04Great way to sum that up.
08:05You touched upon it, obviously, Matt Damon.
08:07But the cast itself is, like, stacked.
08:09I mean, Linda Fiorentina just absolutely killing it.
08:12Affleck, Damon, Chris Rock, Salma Hayek, Alanis Morissette.
08:16Musing yourself, of course, my boy, Jason Lee.
08:18But there's two in particular I'd like to highlight.
08:21Alan Rickman and, of course, George Carlin.
08:24Now, George Carlin, one of the greatest comics comedians of all time.
08:30Alan Rickman, one of Britain's greatest thespians.
08:33Firstly, with George Carlin, I know, obviously, yourself, you're a massive fan.
08:36But how was it for you getting to work with him that first time?
08:38And also, I believe you got to introduce him to your dad, which must have been very cool.
08:41And also, I believe Alan Rickman and Jason Mewes became the most unlikely of best pals.
08:45They did.
08:47For me, having Carlin in the movie, having both of those dudes, Carlin and Rickman, let me untold credibility that
08:54I still eat out on today.
08:56Like, we're having a conversation about it and stuff.
08:58The two absolute icons of their field who have since left us.
09:07But because, you know, I convinced them to come play with me once or twice.
09:14Forever now, I'm associated with absolute legendary icons who also gave me their best on camera.
09:25George, I was a massive fan of since childhood.
09:29My father gave him to me like a gift, gave me a class clown when I was nine years old,
09:36way too young for that.
09:37And he was just like, don't ever let your mother hear you listening to this.
09:41And I never gave this to you and stuff.
09:44So it was like, you know, sometimes in a movie or TV show, you see a father like share a
09:48beer with a son and be like, you're a man now.
09:51I never had that.
09:51But my father gave me like a George Carlin album was the closest thing to that.
09:54I had him going like, I could trust you with this.
09:57And George was hysterical, but he's also brilliant.
10:00He was smart.
10:01You know, he used a lot of colorful language words, but still absolutely brilliant, prescient.
10:08His material still holds today and in some ways is even more relevant today than it was when he first
10:14said it.
10:16But he loved to act.
10:17Never mind like being a comedian, man.
10:19He kind of backed into that.
10:20Like, you know, that was not his aim.
10:22He wanted to be Danny Kay in movies because he would go to movies with his brother and his mom
10:27and his mother loved Danny Kay.
10:28So a young George Carlin was like, that's what I'm going to be, the song and dance man in movies
10:32and whatnot.
10:33But it didn't work out for him that way.
10:35And he kind of backed into being a comedic legend.
10:38So whenever we made a flick, even if it was a Kevin Smith movie and we were like, hey, you
10:45want to come play?
10:46He like came running because he loved to act, man.
10:49Sorry, garbage truck going by.
10:51Loved to act.
10:52So he popped up in my movies, you know, multiple times.
10:56And one of the first times, Dogma, I got to introduce George to my dad.
11:01My dad was visiting set and George was there.
11:03And I was like, you know, George, this is my father.
11:07The reason that, like, I'm a George Carlin fan and gave me the album.
11:09George was like, oh, yeah, you're the bad parent that passed it on and stuff.
11:13So absolutely beautiful moment that, you know, Dogma, a movie about spirituality, afforded.
11:21You know, if you trace it back, thank God I was born a Catholic.
11:27Otherwise, I never get to introduce my father to George Carlin.
11:30Everything's connected.
11:31And with Rickman, I got this movie theater in Atlantic Islands, New Jersey.
11:37Smodcastle Cinema is where we do stuff all the time.
11:39But in that theater, back when I didn't own it, when I was a kid, just going to it as
11:45the Atlantic Highlands Twin Cinema, is when I went to see Die Hard.
11:48And I went into that theater to see Bruce Willis.
11:51But I came out going, who's the other guy?
11:54Oh, my God.
11:55Hans Gruber is amazing.
11:57And I was instantly an Alan Rickman fan.
11:59Now, if you are an Alan Rickman fan, naturally, the progression takes you to Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves, the
12:04next big role, studio role he had after Die Hard.
12:08But I tracked everything he did, man.
12:10We were in the video store age.
12:12So I would go to the cool video store, big choice or choice video, and find movies from overseas.
12:18Like he was in this movie Closetland with Madeline Stowe, of course, Truly Madly Deeply.
12:25January, man, he took like a bit part just because he liked the script and stuff.
12:29So I was an ardent fan of the artist, man, not just like the big mainstream hits and stuff.
12:35So it was never my idea to put him in the movie.
12:38But John Gordon, who was our exec at Miramax in those days, called me up one day and he was
12:42like, you'll never guess who we had here for a general meeting.
12:46I said, who?
12:46He goes, Alan Rickman.
12:48I said, Hans Gruber was in the Miramax building.
12:50Did he blow it up?
12:51And he goes, no, man, we were meeting with him, trying to convince him to be in this Merchant Ivory
12:55movie.
12:55And I was like, what did he say?
12:57He goes, all he wanted to talk about was whoever directed Chasing Amy.
13:00I was like, I directed Chasing Amy.
13:01He's like, yeah, man, we should send him a script for Dogma.
13:04So we sent him a script for Dogma.
13:06Fastest yes I ever got in the business.
13:09Generally, it's always from Jason Mewes.
13:11I don't finish the sentence.
13:12And he's like, I'm in.
13:13But we sent Alan the script two hours after he received it, the FedEx.
13:18He called him, was like, I'm in.
13:19And started to be helpful right away, man.
13:23It originally got us our first God, which was Emma Thompson.
13:26And then Emma Thompson had to drop out and stuff.
13:29So Alan didn't just bring himself.
13:31He was like, oh, I got a friend who'd love to do this as well.
13:35He was, you know, you would imagine.
13:39Like, this was a guy, of course, we have a thought of him in our heads, like, as Snape.
13:46I mean, we all know he's an actor.
13:47But when you think of Alan, most people of a certain age probably think of either Hans Gruber or Snape.
13:54Dude was a soft, absolute soft puppy in real life.
13:58One of the greatest actors ever lived, but just such a sweetheart.
14:02And the weirdest thing I ever saw on a movie set, still holds to this day, was we're in the
14:07third act of Dogman in front of the church and whatnot.
14:10All the characters are there.
14:11So every famous person in the world who's in that movie is there in front of the church.
14:18And I'm going to get a snack after I set up a shot.
14:21And I look at the front steps of the church.
14:24As I walk by, I see the weirdest thing I've ever seen.
14:27Jason Mews and Alan Rickman engaged in deep conversation.
14:30I remember thinking, what the fuck?
14:31Could these two possibly have to say to one another?
14:33So I see Alan later on.
14:35And I sidle up to him.
14:36And I was like, hey, man, if Jason Mews is bothering you, let me know.
14:39And I'll make sure.
14:40And he goes, Jason could never bother me.
14:42He goes, Jason Mews is the best that America can be.
14:45And I was like, stop it.
14:47And he goes, Jason Mews is an American icon.
14:49So he loved Mews.
14:51He thought he was so fascinating and original and adorable and stuff like that.
14:56And he gave us, you know, like I don't think Alan ever gave.
15:00He gave a mid, as the kids used to say, performance.
15:05So like every movie where he probably got paid lots of money, he gave us a performance of a lifetime,
15:13even though he got paid scale in our movie.
15:15So when I was touring the movie around the U.S. earlier this year in April and May, I spoke
15:23to Jay on the phone about midway through the tour.
15:25He's like, how's it going?
15:26Because normally he goes with me, but it was just me by myself for this.
15:30So he's like, how's it going?
15:31I was like, oh, my God, they still love you, dude.
15:32I was like, you know, at the end of the movie, during the curtain call credits, like you get the
15:39second loudest applause.
15:41And he's like, second.
15:43I said, Alan, dude, Alan gets the loudest applause.
15:47And Jason goes, wait till I fucking die, which I think Alan would have absolutely loved.
15:52I know we're very short of time.
15:55So just a very last quick, kind of double-headed, cheeky question.
15:58Where are we at with Dogma 2?
16:00And also, Hell Hath No Fury, Like a Woman's Gone for Sega.
16:03What about Mallrats 2?
16:05Mallrats 2, man, is like, oddly enough, it's going to be easier getting a Dogma sequel made than a Mallrats
16:11sequel.
16:12Universal has just no interest in it.
16:15So all I do is play the waiting game, man, where it's like periodically I resubmit.
16:18That periodically we find a department where it's like, oh, maybe they'll be sympathetic.
16:23Periodically we go back into Peacock and pitch it first as a movie, a TV movie, then as a series,
16:28whatever.
16:30It's been an uphill battle, to say the least, because we've been trying to do it for well over 10
16:35years now.
16:36And trying to do it for so long that we lost Shannon, man.
16:40So I can't imagine not walking in there with Shannon makes it any easier at this point.
16:48So I don't know that Mallrats 2 will ever happen.
16:51I'm starting to lose hope.
16:52But the good news is I can always make it a comic book, publish it as a comic book and
16:56stuff.
16:57But life is long.
16:58Turns happen all the time.
16:59I always, you know, I'm like, all right, if it ain't today, perhaps it's tomorrow and stuff.
17:05Meantime, I've learned not to sit around and wait.
17:08I move forward on other things.
17:09So in March, we go make our next Jay and Silent Bob movie, Store Wars.
17:14But I've been writing a Dogma follow-up, man.
17:17Taking my time.
17:17It's interesting because the kid that wrote Dogma believed in everything you see here.
17:21Like everything on the screen.
17:23That was not like Christian mythology.
17:25That was his fate.
17:27The guy who's writing the sequel is not that person.
17:30Doesn't have the same feelings.
17:32So the first time was the guy who believed in all that writing about somebody who doesn't.
17:38And the second time around, oddly, is it a guy writing about somebody who believes in all this, but he
17:43doesn't.
17:43So it's going to be interesting to see how it plays out.
17:46I would hesitate to call it a sequel because it's not like Rufus, Martleby, Jay and Silent Bob, they're back.
17:54It's not like everybody returns and we do the same thing again.
17:58But there's a place at the table set for anybody who was in the first Dogma.
18:02You know, the ones you'll see the most, I guarantee you are me and Jay.
18:07Because we're the cheapest element to bring back to the movie.
18:10You know, if you wanted to use Ben and Matt for as long as we had Ben and Matt on
18:14Dogma, it would cost me a lot of money at this point.
18:19Like, you know, those are dudes that can go over there and make 10, 15, 20 million dollars working for
18:23Netflix.
18:24So for the same amount of time.
18:26So for me, like on Dogma, everybody was young and upcoming and stuff like that.
18:30Their agents used to hate us back in the day.
18:33Patrick Weitzel, who was Ben and Matt's agent, like hated us because Ben and Matt would like do our movies,
18:39even though we weren't paying, even though we were paying like scale and stuff.
18:43So if I were to go back and be like, I need Ben and Matt for two months, like that
18:48is so incredibly cost prohibitive.
18:49I don't make those types of movies.
18:51That being said, everybody who was in the first one gets to come back if they want to.
18:56And Bartleby and Loki, where they come in, is like one of my favorite things in the movie.
19:03It is beautiful.
19:03And I get a little emotional even thinking about it right now.
19:07Brilliant.
19:07Well, hopefully we see that at some point somewhere down the line of Star Wars.
19:10But in the meantime, Dogma is back in UK and Ireland cinemas November the 7th, Friday, November the 7th to
19:16mark the 25th anniversary, cheekily 26 years later.
19:19And I can't wait to check out on the big screen again.
19:22Kev has been an absolute blast, man.
19:23I've been a fan for a long time, so it's always good to sit down and chew the fat with
19:27yourself.
19:27Any quick final words to share with your fans?
19:29And it has to be quick.
19:31You know, honestly, kids, going to see Dogma in a theater is a singular experience at this stage in the
19:38game with the state of the world as it is.
19:42And it's a beautiful throwback because like the issues that the characters are all dealing with in that movie seem
19:49quaint.
19:51Compared to the issues we deal with in the real world today.
19:54But what I love about the movie is if you go see it, you'll see what I saw when I
19:58took it on tour here in the States a couple of months ago.
20:01The movie is a child's prayer.
20:03This was what a young Kevin Smith believed church could be like.
20:08Like he, you know, went to church his whole life, was dragged by his parents, was an altar boy for
20:1112 years.
20:12And he felt that everybody in the church wasn't celebrating their faith.
20:16As we say in the movie, they were mourning it.
20:18So Dogma is that young, spiritually filled Christian Catholics attempt at presenting what he thinks would be the best version
20:31of the Catholic mass.
20:33Like fun story with anal jokes in it to keep you interested.
20:38So do with that as you will.
20:41As you watch it, just know that that was a early 20s.
20:45I mean, at late teens, early 20s, Kevin Smith ideal of how religion could be.
20:53Brilliant.
20:53A fantastic way to end it.
20:55Again, November 7th.
20:56Go and check it out.
20:57Kevin, it's been an absolute pleasure.
20:58This has been What Culture?
20:59I've been Andrew Pollard.
20:59This has been Kevin Smith.
21:00And we will catch you soon.
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