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Composer brothers Marcus and Samuel Bagala sit down to discuss creating the epic score for Star Trek: Khan. They reveal their creative process, musical inspirations, and how they brought the legendary villain’s story to life through music.
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00:00Hi, I'm Mike McMahon, the showrunner and creator of Star Trek Letter Decks, and you are watching Trek Culture.
00:08Kind of jumping straight into it, like your music has been wonderful.
00:14I think surprise is the word I'm going to use.
00:17Not that I didn't think it was going to be fantastic, but because of the scale of it,
00:21which has been quite a wonderful thing to enjoy.
00:25How has your journey really been with this project, and how early on did you find out that,
00:33no, no, we're going full tilt with this one?
00:36Yeah, it's actually kind of wild.
00:41I've done a lot of podcast music before.
00:45This is definitely something that's in my wheelhouse.
00:47And it's something that Sam and I talked about as we were getting into it,
00:53and realizing how much more music this story called for, and the way the story was told,
01:01is honestly unlike anything else that I've ever worked on.
01:05And I think all of us, I specifically remember a conversation with Fred, the director,
01:11like kind of early on, and we're like talking about music, and we're like, yeah, you know,
01:15like we're going to, you know, because how we've done it in the past is it's a lot of times,
01:19it's more about sort of making these like transitions, and like you have the scene,
01:23and then the music will sort of come in towards the end of the scene, and like provide a little
01:27bit of subtext, give you a sense that you're going to move on to the next scene, and it works
01:31as kind of this like structural tool, where we're kind of like commenting on the action
01:37a little bit, but we're not often sort of like getting in there, and like, really just
01:43just because of the form, because I think sometimes it can feel as if we're trying to push the listeners
01:49a little bit, you know, and say, okay, feel this, feel that. If you if you, in my sort of past
01:54experience scoring podcasts, if you if you push too hard, try to underscore scenes, whatever.
02:00And there was, I think something about the sort of like Shakespearean quality of the dialogue
02:05in this, and the bigness of the story, and the way that Kirsten and David like wrote the story.
02:14There's just a scale to it that I think it was like maybe like around like episode three,
02:19between episode three and four, where we sort of had like sent some episodes to the producers,
02:27and we were getting feedback, and it was starting to be like, maybe, maybe it needs more music.
02:31And so it's like settled into where we're like, you know, kind of started approaching this in
02:38the way that we had approached other projects. And then there's like realization that like, no,
02:43this is a really big story. And a big story calls for big music. And that was kind of like,
02:49how that how that went. Yeah, very real composing experience. Sam, what were you gonna say?
02:55I was gonna say, like, speaking to the scale that you mentioned, Sean, like, we grew up on Star
02:59Trek, Lord of the Rings, like, Harry Potter, like all these like, massive, like fantasy, sci fi,
03:06like lore and legends. So like, for us, we were just so excited to to deal on this land.
03:12Yeah, so we were like, Okay, let's really go for it here. Yeah, let's, let's go all out,
03:18so to speak. If we if we're allowed, and we were, I mean, that that is what because I know as well,
03:25Star Trek, I mean, Star Trek, I mean, if we just look at some of the composers who have worked within
03:29this franchise, and some of the pieces that have been created and suites of music. And yet also,
03:35I know there's I think, I think it's early doors, next generation, there was nearly a not going back
03:43a little bit on how much music we were able to enjoy, but it was kind of tone it down a little
03:48bit, bring it down, like just the the performance. And I like that it's kind of gone the other way
03:53again, you know, we have these beautiful suites of music. Did you find that there was any sort of
04:00notes in terms of either? Okay, can you make it a little bit less lyrical? Or was it,
04:05you know, no, actually, I want you to go full balls to the wall here? Go crazy.
04:11I think, yeah, I was gonna say, what was amazing is that we felt a great deal of trust amongst the
04:18team to do what we want to bring to it. But what you just mentioned, Fred was so sort of
04:25communicative about what he wanted. So there was moments where you might remember some of the exact
04:30language where it would be like, all out or like, make us weep or like stuff like that,
04:34where it was like, a very small directive, you know, yeah, yeah, but we're like, okay,
04:40we know exactly what you mean with these few words, or even if it's just like, action music,
04:44then that sort of like, okay, now we need, yeah, go ahead, Morris.
04:47In the entire run of the show, getting notes from the producers. I think there was only one time that
04:54we got a note where they're like, okay, can we pull it back a little bit? For the whole show.
04:58One note about like, they're like, let's pull it back. It was like, there was like a choir thing.
05:02And they're like, maybe the choir is a little too much. Just for that moment. There's lots of choir
05:06in the score. But it was like that moment. They're like, maybe it's a little too much. We're like, wow.
05:09Fair enough. Yeah. It was like, okay. Heard.
05:13That is funny, especially on something like a podcast, which is so obviously aural,
05:21as opposed to visual, it's leaning so much on the sounds. It is funny to get a note like,
05:24you're kind of like, with so much voice going on, we're going to bring a little bit of the voice back.
05:27Just a little bit back. I mean, Naveen himself could probably carry this entire thing start to
05:34finish. He's so big, as you mentioned as well, quite Shakespearean, both in his delivery and in
05:38terms of the script as well. I was reading an interview you did there recently, where you talked
05:45about how you actually been a part of this since pretty much day one of the inception of this project.
05:52How has it changed over time from your perspective? You know, it's interesting. I think like
06:01the core of it really hasn't, you know, I think, you know, what does like, like the actual story,
06:06which is the, you know, I think the, I remember the original news story is talked about how like
06:11Nick had written like a, like a mini series type thing. And I actually, when I was writing demos for
06:17our pitch, we got to read like heavily NDA got to like read those, um, uh, mini series scripts.
06:24So we could get a sense of like what the story was. Um, and, and I think like the way that it
06:30ultimately spins out, um, has changed. I think Lear got added in at like after like, that was like
06:35something that I think Kirsten and David brought. I don't want to like speak out of school, but I'm
06:39pretty sure that was something that they had, um, they added, which was such a wonderful sort of like
06:44way to sort of like frame the story and help us like understand what's happening and give it more
06:48relevance, you know, sort of outside of the like story that we, we know how it ends. We didn't
06:53know quite how it got there, but I think there was, so I think that was probably the biggest thing.
06:58Um, but in terms of like, I think just sort of like to illustrate the, how the sort of mission of
07:04it has, has sort of more or less like been consistent is that like, I wrote a piece of music for the
07:10pitch that, and the idea was like Fred and I had both read the scripts and we were, uh, you know,
07:18sort of had this conversation and we made a playlist and we were like talking about it.
07:21I'm like, what, what could we do that sort of like illustrates like our like creative
07:25understanding of like who Khan is and how this character is going to sort of move through this
07:31story. And I wrote this piece of music that, that accompanied the pitch. Um, and that piece of music
07:37not in its full form, but that piece of music is what the score is based off of. You hear themes
07:44that I wrote for the pitch in the episodes. Like it's really hasn't like the, to me, that I think
07:51just sort of speaks to like the, the sort of spirit of it, you know, is, has been relatively consistent.
07:56What we're trying to do, how we all sort of like creatively understand the character and how we're like
08:02expressing that musically. Um, and then, you know, everything else, obviously,
08:06I think it has been, there's a relative amount of through line, um, that has just like
08:12been, been quite consistent.
08:15Would you say obviously, um, I mean, Fred is obviously there, uh, his, uh, uh, tendrils,
08:20if you like, are in every single moment of this. He's going to hate me for describing it like that.
08:24Sorry, of course, is in every moment of the series, but you mentioned, of course, Dan, like,
08:30how is that relationship and how is that kind of structured between yourselves as composers
08:36and Dan as a sound editor? And the reason I ask is there was, um, I was watching years ago now,
08:41I was watching an interview, um, of all things, it was for the Alien 3 special features on the
08:47quadrilogy. And it was Elliot Goldenthal. And he was talking about how he had had maybe a less than
08:53wonderful relationship with the sound designers on Alien 3. And it got me wondering, like, it, it must be
09:00really interesting, because is, is there times you disagree? Um, or, you know, that you kind of,
09:06that maybe a little bit more conversation is required in that moment?
09:10I think as, like, Steph has mentioned, like, there was a lot of, like, we always talked before getting
09:16into stuff. I think particularly when we, like, knew something big, sorry about that, um, we knew
09:23something big was coming up. So, like, like, in this week's episode, like, the battle with the Elborians,
09:28we, like, knew that that was, like, going to be a huge moment, and there was going to be all the
09:33sound design and stuff. So there was, like, a real kind of consensus that we built beforehand,
09:40um, to make sure that, like, we weren't, like, working, like, against each other.
09:44Um, and I, and I think part of that is, is, like, helped by the fact that, like, Dan and I have worked
09:49together on, like, you know, five or six projects at this point. Like, over the, like, I've been working
09:54with Dan since, like, 2019, I think was the first project that I did with him.
09:58So there's, there's a bit of a, like, there's obviously a lot of shared respect, because it's
10:03just, like, someone that I love working with, and, and we've sort of shared a lot of projects
10:08together. Um, but also just, there's the, it makes the communication easy, because it's just, like,
10:13Dan knows that, like, we can take it if he's, like, hey, guys, the music, like, it's too much,
10:18you know, or whatever, and, like, and, and sort of similar, it could be, like, hey, like,
10:21I know you're doing a lot of sound design there, but I think it would actually be cool if the music kind
10:24of, like, took the first, you know, took, took the focus there, or whatever. And so it's about
10:29having those conversations where we're being sort of candid with each other, which, again,
10:35I think is because we've all worked together before, there's, there's a, it's, it just sort
10:39of eases that. Um, and then, obviously, yeah, like, we, uh, you know, we just would always talk
10:46about stuff. Um, but yeah, I mean, like, there's obviously times when it's, like, you know, Dan's
10:50working on an episode, and, like, some music stuff get moves around, and he's, like, hey,
10:53I tried this, and we're, like, I think I could maybe do that a little, you know, better on my end,
10:57or whatever, but it, but it was always pretty, like, good-natured, and, like, you know, everybody's,
11:02again, like, working towards the same goal, so.
11:04I was just gonna add to that, we always got an initial sound, uh, sound design pass from Dan
11:09before we actually started scoring, so we are, we already had an idea of what Dan was after,
11:14and sort of how to fit into that. Um, and, um, Dan is also great, is, in that he's a musician as well,
11:20and he knows how to work with what we give him, um, so there are times where he'll literally just take
11:24some of our stems, and sort of move things around, and he'll be like, oh, this is temporary,
11:28but just as a placeholder, and I mean, that, that's so amazing when you have a sound designer.
11:32You know? Yeah, exactly.
11:35Sam, because we're, you know, like, part of the wrap for the project, you have to, like,
11:37sort of submit, like, a list of all the cues that ended up in the episode, and there was one that,
11:42like, Sam was like, oh, it's like Dan had, like, taken, like, some little elements from one of my cues,
11:48and some elements from Sam's cues, and he kind of smashed them to guide them.
11:53And I hadn't clocked that when I was, like, listening to the episode, I was just like, oh,
11:57Dan added something there, and it sounds cool, and, like, you know, I don't need to mess with that,
12:01because it's working, but it was, it was funny to then go back and look at it and be like, oh, yeah, like,
12:07like, everybody kind of throwing something in the pot that came out, and it was kind of cool.
12:14That is, I mean, it's, it's fascinating, and it's, it's, there's so many examples of,
12:19on a project like this or any project, like, no man is an island, like, everyone is working so closely
12:24with everyone else. Now, I know that the pair of ye are Star Trek fans.
12:29At what point did you go, oh my god, we're scoring for Khan?
12:35Probably from, from day one to the last day.
12:39Every single time I sat down and I was like, yeah, like, holy we're doing, we're doing Star Trek.
12:43Even now, watching the episodes drop and seeing people's responses, you're still like, oh my god,
12:47wow, we did a thing, and it's, that's the cool part, even, yeah.
12:51Yeah, I mean, that's, that's certainly like the most,
12:55is it the most rewarding? There's a lot of very, it's, it's hard to, to stack all the things that
12:59have been rewarding about this. I think it's just nice to share, like, the, our joy with it,
13:02now that everyone else, it's bringing joy to other people, and that's like, that's just very cool,
13:06because we got to experience that before everyone else, I think.
13:10Yeah, yeah, it is amazing to like, be like, sitting with something, and I think like,
13:14we all felt like it was good, you know, like, work on it, I think like, Sam and I both feel like
13:19the music that we wrote is like, probably some of the best work that we've done to this date, like,
13:25you know, and we were feeling that, but then like, for it to be out in the world and to like, see the,
13:30see the reactions that people are having, it's sort of that like, affirming feeling of being like,
13:35oh, like, okay, cool, like, this is, this wasn't just us, because I think, you know, like,
13:41we, I've been on projects like that, where I'm like, I think this is cool, and then it goes out
13:44in the world, and people are like, well, okay, whatever, you know, it's like, but this has been
13:48a thing where it's like, you know, you're working on it, and we're really in it, and we're like,
13:53man, this is, I think this is kind of special.
13:54I think, and we had fun doing it too, so yeah, that's so huge when you're enjoying the journey,
14:00yeah, absolutely, not that we don't have fun doing other projects, but.
14:03It was also just like, I think, I think that the Star Trek of it all is just,
14:07it's, it's, yeah, like I said, it's been there from day one to, to the, to, to continues,
14:13it's just such a cool, amazing world to play in, and to have the, the sort of trust put in us to
14:20play in that world, and try to bring something to, you know, bring something to it, you know,
14:26that is us, and, and, and, like, try to, like, honor, like, the, like, it's like, it's a lot,
14:32you know, it's just, like, this huge thing to, to kind of internalize, um, and so I think,
14:39I think we, we carry that with us through the project, or just, like, there's always that little
14:43guy on, like, your shoulders, like, holy, like, oh my god, like, this is so cool,
14:48um, and, and that, yeah, like, it never goes away, um, but, you know, in, in terms of influence,
14:57I mean, I suppose anyone would be forgiven on a project like this, of just going, right,
15:02James Horner score, pop it on, done, there you go, happy out, and obviously that's not what,
15:07what is happening here, but was there ever, say, a discussion of whether or not to sort of bring in
15:12some of that score, or leave it completely separate, as, you know, that is part of Cannes,
15:17later life, was, was there a discussion around that kind of score, and could there be, I'm not
15:23sure what rights and things like that? No, well, yeah, so, I mean, I don't think there was,
15:27there was never a point when it was like, oh, can we use James Horner's names? I think that was
15:34pretty, pretty much, like, from the get-go, like, that wasn't quite gonna work, um, for various reasons,
15:40um, but we definitely had a conversation quite early, um, and then continuing about, like,
15:48what the score should sound like, and how it should, like, function, um, and, and we had to kind of,
15:55like, zero in on, like, okay, like, obviously, James Horner's score is incredible and iconic,
16:02um, but, uh, also realized that, like, the way that it's functioning, and, like, I think specifically,
16:08I think it was Kirsten at one point had, like, sort of sent some notes through Fred,
16:14and that was sort of just musing about, like, music direction and stuff, and it was like,
16:19the POV of Wrath of Cannes is still from Kirk, you know, it's, it's Kirk's perspective,
16:25so the music, while there are moments in the score where, um, that are sort of associated with Cannes,
16:31it's, it's through Kirk's lens, right, and I think, like, when we think about, like, how music,
16:37uh, and sort of can, like, work within a story and how, how the, the story informs the music,
16:44POV is, is a pretty important perspective for, for us, like, who are, who do we want the audience
16:51to sort of see this story, like, through that lens, and, like, for the show, for, for, for Star Trek Con,
16:57like, the POV is con, you know, and, and, and Lear and, and Mar-A-L-E to a certain extent,
17:03but it's like, that's a, those are, they're very different characters than Kirk, um, you know,
17:07and, and I think our, like, sort of big challenge coming into it was, like, how do we sort of honor
17:16the, like, legacy of Star Trek and, like, what, you know, all of these amazing scores that have
17:23happened up to this point, and, and, like, make sure that we sort of are being conscientious of
17:29that, and then also, um, realize that we're sort of doing something a little bit different here,
17:34where, like, this is a Star Trek story that is based around a character who's not part of Starfleet,
17:39you know, who is traditionally a villain, who has a very different point of view than, uh, any of the
17:46characters that we've, we've really followed as our protagonists before.
17:50Um, and so that is, I think, really, like, where our sort of, like, jumping off point was. It was,
17:55like, we want to make sure that we're, we're sort of, and, like, if you listen, there's, like, little
18:00nods, you know, to, to James Horner and, and to the types of instruments and Jerry Goldsmith and,
18:06um, newer track stuff. Like, there are nods to that, but I, I think we, we're trying to be
18:10conscientious of the fact that, like, it's a very different story we're telling here, and I think
18:14that's sort of, you know, when folks hear the music and maybe a clock that it's, like,
18:20it's, like, hopefully the, the feeling is, like, oh, this feels like track, but it also feels like
18:24something else. Um, like, that's sort of how we came to that conclusion, and that was very much
18:29in collaboration with Fred and with Kirsten and, and making sure that everyone felt good
18:33about, like, the direction that we were sort of, like, pursuing, essentially.
18:39Yeah, I'll just add to that. We definitely, we absolutely are paying homage to all the composers
18:43before us, because I would say that's just in our bones, having grown up listening to it for decades
18:47now, and having spent hours and hours and hours beforehand doing the deep dive back on those
18:53scores. So even if it's just, like, a very, like, instinctual level now, you know, whether it's, like,
19:00taking how they write brass or string ostinatos or any of those things, it's sort of now just
19:05inherent because we've spent so much time with, you know, Jerry Goldsmith and Michael Giacchino and
19:10James Horner and just all those scores listening, listening, listening. Um, so there's, there's really
19:14no removing them in what we did. When we do show up to do our work, we do have to sort of, like,
19:20lay all that aside, because it is very easy to get, be like, oh my god, there's so many different
19:25voices and ideas and composers in my head, and you can't, you obviously can't work that way.
19:30Um, so once you get to the actual blank canvas, you sort of set that aside, and we, we focus on our
19:35themes and our orchestration choices and all of that, but, um, oh my god, the influences of all the
19:40truck composers are, are huge. Um, Jeff Russo on the new, new truck stuff. What's that, Maurice?
19:47It's, it's, it's, it's the blueprint, you know? It's, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
19:50There was this, like, whole thing where we're, like, we're, like, working on the score,
19:53and you're, like, kind of in a vacuum, right? It's, like, first the vacuum is Sam and I,
19:57and then it's Sam, Fred, Dan, and I, and then, like, at some point we sent the episodes to,
20:04you know, the, the larger producer team, and we're, like, this, it's this whole thing where we're, like,
20:09oh, are they gonna, are they gonna think it sounds like track enough? Is there gonna be a tonal issue?
20:14Like, you know, it's because you just never know, and we're, like, you know, we can only compose
20:18to what we can compose, like, you know, we are, we are the composers that we are, um,
20:22and it was this, like, whole thing where, like, I, I constantly had that in the back of my mind where
20:26I was, like, oh, like, is this, are, like, are other people gonna feel, like, is it track enough?
20:31Yeah, like, is it track enough? And, like, and luckily, you know, like, it was, um, and, and I'm,
20:36I'm very proud that we, that, you know, like, we never got a, a note where they were, like,
20:41oh, this doesn't feel like this is, like, part of our world, and I, I feel pretty, like, um,
20:47I'm, I'm, like, proud of that, like, I feel like there was, there was that, like, thing where it's
20:50just, like, we, we sort of found it, we found the sound, and it, and it, like, sort of resonated
20:55beyond just ourselves, so to speak, um, and that, that was, like, that was a really good moment. I just was,
21:01like, nervous throughout the whole process. I was, like, is the shoe gonna finally drop? And then,
21:04it never did, and I was, like, ah, this is, this is, it was a good feeling.
21:19Thank you so much for watching this abbreviated version of this podcast. Now, if you go to our
21:25audio platforms, you will get the full version of this podcast with this guest, so we really,
21:31really appreciate you subscribing to that, and you're just awesome and wonderful. Thank you so much.
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