- 4 hours ago
2008
Category
😹
FunTranscript
00:00:00I feel like something bad is going to happen to me.
00:00:12I feel like something bad has happened.
00:00:15It hasn't reached me yet, but it's on its way.
00:00:30I don't know why it's important, like how it helps people, like dealing with their loss, like making up stories about ghosts or whatever.
00:00:51Alice kept secrets.
00:00:53She kept the fact she kept secrets a secret.
00:01:00It's hard for some people to understand, but you have to believe you're to blame or else there's nothing to hold on to.
00:01:30No problem.
00:01:31I had to believe you were to think myself.
00:01:33I was wrong.
00:01:34I was wrong.
00:01:35I was wrong.
00:01:36I was wrong.
00:01:37I was wrong.
00:01:38But actually, I didn't know what happened.
00:01:39The Ombudsman was just a secret.
00:01:40The Ombudsman was a secret.
00:01:41Since the top of my shovel in the field, it must have walked the surface in the ground.
00:01:43But we're the left, and we're the right.
00:01:44What happened?
00:01:45We went to the right for a moment.
00:01:46Hello Joe, can you hear me?
00:02:16The normally tranquil setting of Ararat's Norval Dam was shattered yesterday with the
00:02:29disappearance of 16-year-old Alice Palmer while picnicking with her family.
00:02:33We received a call around 6pm tonight of a missing girl and on discovering the nature
00:02:39of the situation we called in the search and rescue divers from Melbourne.
00:02:42Police divers entered the water around 10 o'clock with SES volunteers joining a fruitless search...
00:02:47Matt and Allie had someone out to the middle of the dam.
00:02:51I could see them from where I was sitting at the picnic area.
00:02:55I think I'd been in the water for about 15 minutes and I said that I was going to get out because it was cold.
00:03:02So I started swimming back and she didn't come out with me so I thought she's going to stay in there.
00:03:08I remember Matty got out and a few minutes later I heard him ask where was Alice.
00:03:21So I stood up and looked out across the dam and the water was completely still.
00:03:31So I called out.
00:03:34I looked out over the water to see if I could see her.
00:03:40And both the boys had kind of checked, you know, the bushland behind.
00:03:49I could see Alice's towel.
00:03:52She had left it on the ground and she clearly hadn't got out of the water
00:03:57because then, you know, she would have picked up her towel.
00:04:00So, yeah, that was the last time that I saw her.
00:04:07Police continue to hold grave fears for 16-year-old Alice Palmer,
00:04:31who disappeared while picnicking with her family.
00:04:34Police search and rescue...
00:04:35Oh, well, we were told to go home.
00:04:40And, uh, if the search and rescue divers found anything,
00:04:43then they'd let us know immediately.
00:04:58It felt very strange in the car on the way home
00:05:00because there was one empty seat.
00:05:02One minute she was there and then gone.
00:05:11I went back to stay with the Palmers that night.
00:05:13We were just mostly waiting, mostly waiting for news.
00:05:17For bad news.
00:05:20And there was that expectation.
00:05:24We got a call from Russell on his mobile about nine o'clock at night.
00:05:29And he'd said there'd been an accident at the Weir and Alice had gone missing.
00:05:36So we thought, well, we'd better go to our rat.
00:05:40I remember June was a bit funny about seeing Iris.
00:05:46There was a strange feeling between them.
00:05:49It felt a little strange having my mother there.
00:05:53Mum and I there for Alice.
00:05:56It just didn't feel like the right order of things.
00:06:01It was an awful, awful night.
00:06:05Worst night of our lives.
00:06:07I went into Alice's room later that night.
00:06:11And her phone went off a couple of times.
00:06:21But I didn't answer it.
00:06:23I remember the bed was made.
00:06:28I remember thinking how neat everything looked.
00:06:51I got a call from Alice's mum, June.
00:06:54She'd said that Alice was missing and presumed, like, she drowned.
00:07:00And, like, I didn't not believe her.
00:07:04But, I don't know, I just, it was kind of hard to take.
00:07:08So I actually called Alice's mobile.
00:07:12I just, um, maybe wanted to see if, hope it was a joke or something.
00:07:19I don't know.
00:07:20It's a real shock.
00:07:23It just didn't really feel like it was real.
00:07:28Um, everything was the same as always.
00:07:32But people were saying Alice had drowned.
00:07:34Are there any memories from that night that stand out for you?
00:07:38I remember we had the porch light on.
00:07:43Still two, actually, just in case.
00:07:46And why's that?
00:07:47Just in case she comes home, I guess.
00:08:01I'm not the only thing right now, she is?
00:08:02Not a good thing, but I'm not.
00:08:03Right.
00:08:04Now, then it goes.
00:08:06I'm not the only one of my dead.
00:08:07I don't know me.
00:08:08I can't see.
00:08:09It's a good thing.
00:08:10It's a good thing.
00:08:11What's your fault?
00:08:12I just got into this room.
00:08:13I don't know.
00:08:14I don't know you can see her.
00:08:16I don't know you're singing.
00:08:18But I don't know.
00:08:19The SARS divers located Alice's body at approximately 9.25pm, they used sonar to locate her and
00:08:37she drifted her some way and come to rest on a shelf at the bottom of the stormwater
00:08:42system in the dam. Obviously contacted the family immediately. As soon as we were told
00:08:50that they'd found the body, June and I went down to the dam, Georgie came over to keep
00:08:54that company. It was all very official and formal and they asked me to sign a statement
00:09:00of identification. June stayed in the car and on reflection I think that was a mistake
00:09:08because she didn't have any closure. I just couldn't bring myself to identify
00:09:16Alice's body. She'd been underwater all that time and I guess it's not how I, I didn't
00:09:26want to remember her in that way. I thought that was my responsibility as
00:09:32Alice's dad, you know. That's what our father does.
00:09:39The car stalled on the way back from the dam but the only gear that I could get it into
00:10:03was reverse. So we drove back into town in reverse, which was either that or walk and
00:10:11given everything that had happened, it seemed like the better option really.
00:10:16The autopsy was performed on the Monday, the 27th. Then the coroner released the body
00:10:37on the Tuesday, the 28th. It was very strange spending Christmas day with the family up there
00:10:48while Alice lay alone in the morgue.
00:11:01I don't know, it was just like I hadn't seen her for a week or anything like, yeah it didn't feel
00:11:07real.
00:11:08Death takes everything eventually. It's the meanest dumbest machine there is and it just keeps
00:11:19coming and it doesn't care. There's nothing else to know about it really.
00:11:24It was a somber day for the family and friends of Alice Palmer who gathered to pay their final
00:11:34respects to a young woman taken too soon. She was a great person, very popular, clever,
00:11:41lovely, just let it, yeah. Alice is remembered as a happy, fun-loving girl with a zest for
00:11:47life. Described as always putting others...
00:11:49Palmers were really doing it tough at that time. I don't want to think of how bad it was back
00:11:55then. It's hard to imagine how much worse they would get.
00:12:02Ten days after Ellie's funeral, so that makes it the 15th of January, stuff started happening
00:12:07around the house. The noises in the roof and sounds coming from outside the window and other
00:12:09movements that seemed to come from Ellie's old room. So we re-hung the door and we were
00:12:16to Ellie's room and we got a pest controller to come in and check for termites. I didn't
00:12:21house and noises in the roof and sounds coming from outside the window and other
00:12:30movements that seem to come from Ali's old room so we we rehung the door to
00:12:39Ali's room and we got a pest controller to come in and check for termites and I
00:12:45didn't help at all door kept slamming and we still kept getting the noises from
00:12:49there was just something weird about that house I it had a fairly strange
00:12:58feeling about it I mean I can't explain to you what it was exactly but you go in
00:13:04there and just have this bad feeling like in in your gut
00:13:09I started having these nightmares and they were so distressing that sometimes I just
00:13:25wouldn't want to open my eyes I'd woken up but I didn't want to open my eyes but there was one
00:13:34particular one it was quite vivid and um recurring Alice would come down the hall still dripping from
00:13:42the dam and just stand at the foot of our bed just staring at us it was it was some quite terrifying
00:13:52as I said I didn't want to my eyes by early February my nightmares were getting so bad that I began to
00:14:04go for walks at night sometimes four hours at a time just so that I didn't have to go to bed at night and
00:14:11close my eyes and go to sleep sometimes I would actually go into people's houses I didn't feel
00:14:21like I was doing anything wrong I am I guess I I really just wanted to be inside someone else's life for a while
00:14:41Georgie do you remember how Russell was doing at the time yeah Russell was um he was working a lot at
00:14:48that point I think that might have helped him with his grief Russell and I met actually on the
00:14:57Gippsland catchment project in 98 and worked together on that so you guys have known each other for a few
00:15:03years yeah good for years yeah do you remember how this affected after Alice's death what changed it
00:15:12was work as normal and that was troubling actually I didn't really know what to say to him about that
00:15:20you never spoke about it not really oh it everyone grieves in their own way and it wasn't really my place
00:15:28to be telling him how to feel but I certainly I certainly was concerned I was I was really grateful
00:15:38that I had my work and I mean I felt really guilty about that at the time but you know I just wanted
00:15:46to get on with it in one night late in late February I came home from work and I was sitting in the
00:15:57kitchen and I heard a noise coming from Ali's room so I went into Ali's room and I don't really know why
00:16:08but I sort of found myself sitting down and the chair in front of the dresser and before I could
00:16:16kind of work out what I was doing there Ali walked in and she went over to a desk and started chopping a
00:16:23pencil and then she looked like she was checking her for a text message on a phone and you know I was
00:16:32completely freaked out she was completely oblivious to my presence and then I don't know what happened
00:16:41I must have moved to bed or you know squeaked my shoes or something but she went completely rigid
00:16:48and I knew then that she knew I was there and she slowly turned around and she looked me right in
00:16:58the eye fully for you know what felt like forever and then she just came at me and stood up and said
00:17:08get out get out and I just you know cut up and went out as fast as I could I could hear Russell crying and
00:17:18he was here in the kitchen Matthew and I both found him in here and he was sobbing he was absolutely
00:17:24inconsolable do you believe Russell when he says he saw a ghost yeah I do I believe he saw what he saw
00:17:32and he wouldn't he's not the kind of man to make something up so I believe he saw something
00:17:40whether it's a real ghost or not I don't really know but I'm sure he saw something
00:18:02I remember trying to talk to members of the church about how to help June and how to help the
00:18:14palmers but there just didn't seem like there was anything we could do I think part of the reason was
00:18:22because they weren't church goers they didn't know how to offer them comfort
00:18:27I don't even know what June believes in I found myself mostly concerned about Matthew
00:18:37I guess because those two were always so close I was worried how he would cope
00:18:44I remember he was spending a lot more time alone
00:18:56oh we're all worried about him
00:18:59Matthew came in with some unusual bruises on his body they were unusual in terms of their distribution
00:19:10and depth we obviously took a history trying to exclude trauma but there was certainly no history
00:19:19of trauma that he that he was able to give us we tested him for vasculitis and we also excluded
00:19:24any poisoning or or toxins in his system we were unable to turn up anything conclusive and several
00:19:32weeks after this the bruises just resolved spontaneously and we were never able to really establish a cause for them
00:19:40my name is Steve Wilkie I'm Matthew's best friend I usually stay at Matthew's house two or three times a week
00:19:51um we uh we started a band together so uh we normally play music at my house
00:20:00Matthew's house Matthew seemed a bit quieter but he was always pretty quiet so I guess there wasn't really any warning bells going off or anything
00:20:10although I had heard about uh June going into people's houses and Matthew never really seemed to want to talk about any of that I never I never asked him about any of it
00:20:20I know that he was always interested in photography I know that he was always interested in photography and he was at this time he was starting to pursue it with more passion
00:20:34Matthew came to me he was very keen to find out anything about photography so I was more than willing to to help out you know it's what I do so I was picking my brains about just about anything to do with it
00:20:50from equipment down to techniques down to lighting down you know he was a great asset so I mean eventually I employed him
00:20:58so
00:21:10Matthew, can you talk to me about the photographs of the backyard that you've been taking?
00:21:31Yeah, basically I've taken that same photo, that composition, for I think every three
00:21:38months for the past four years, and it's just a photograph of the backyard looking out and you
00:21:44can see the hills in the distance. It's just like a little project that I set up for myself when we
00:21:50got here. And what was in the April 28th photograph that was different? Well, it's basically the same
00:22:00shot, but it would appear that Alice is standing against the fence.
00:22:16Do you remember what the reaction in the house was at the time?
00:22:20I wouldn't say the mood was good, but it was better than before. It was like,
00:22:26um, like it gave us sort of something to focus on, I think, all of us.
00:22:33Ado. Ado?
00:22:36The photographs were taken on the 3rd of April and they were developed on the 4th, and I looked at
00:22:43them, I think on the 5th, and looked at the dams and the water levels and I was quite happy, but
00:22:50it was only the following night that it was pointed out to me by my wife that there was something in
00:22:55the background in Norval Dam, this image came up.
00:23:11Well, when I first looked at the photograph, I didn't know what to make of it.
00:23:15The image was quite unsettling because it certainly looked like Alice. It was an incredibly
00:23:24discomforting image.
00:23:31And I became convinced that Alice was still alive.
00:23:34I didn't have any rational explanation for who was in those photos. But I did know something
00:23:49about Alice that June didn't. I'd seen Alice's body. I didn't think she was alive. I knew she wasn't.
00:24:00I became convinced that Russell had made a mistake. He himself said that it didn't look like anybody
00:24:08any more.
00:24:12June was so convinced that I'd made a mistake that I actually started to have doubts myself.
00:24:17I started to think maybe, uh, I'd made my mind up that it was Alice's body before, you know,
00:24:24I'd looked and that the circumstances was just so compelling for me that I, I decided that it was her.
00:24:36More than three months after the funeral of Ararat teenager, Alice Palmer, her grieving parents
00:24:41formally requested her body be exhumed from the General Cemetery.
00:24:45There has been some contention from the Palmer family about the accuracy of the original body
00:24:50identification. June and Russell Palmer were adamant that a DNA testing be carried out.
00:24:56They just couldn't be sure that the body they identified was indeed Alice.
00:25:00And today, almost...
00:25:01Uh, Alice's body was exhumed in the presence of the funeral director, Dr. Slatter,
00:25:05and there was a representative from the coroner's office of suicide.
00:25:09And it was then transported to Ararat Base Hospital where they took their DNA samples.
00:25:14And she stayed there until the results came back.
00:25:22A few days later, we received a copy of the coroner's preliminary report.
00:25:28And Alice's identity was confirmed by the DNA sample match.
00:25:33It was only after they confirmed that it was Alice's body that I realised how much that I'd invested
00:25:43in the possibility of it not being her. You know, I can't tell you how much I wanted there to have been
00:25:51a terrible mistake, even if it had been mine. I really, really wanted there to have been somebody
00:25:58else's kid in that dam, a runaway, a murder victim, just anybody else's, just as long as it wasn't my kid,
00:26:06just as long as it wasn't Alice.
00:26:08Alice.
00:26:27Yes, it is.
00:26:28Alice was reburied two days later on the 7th of June.
00:26:58But the question remained, who or what was in those photos?
00:27:05Well, I continued to hear things and...
00:27:28What did you hear?
00:27:30I was hearing noises, sort of, they didn't really relent.
00:27:33I kept hearing noises in the hallway.
00:27:35So I thought, well, I'll just set up a camera to see if, you know, I see anything.
00:27:41I see something.
00:28:06The first night, I looked back and there was footage of a figure moving from the lounge room across the hallway to the front door.
00:28:20You're on Voice FM, two minutes past eight.
00:28:35I'm Helen Bath and we're taking calls with site consultant Ray Kamene.
00:28:40Next we have Nadja on the line. Ray?
00:28:42Hi Nadja, how are you? What can I do for you?
00:28:44My question is about career and I've also got a question about family.
00:28:48It was around about that time I decided to seek out the advice of Ray Kamene.
00:28:53I had heard Ray on the radio over the years and opinion was quite divided.
00:29:00Some thought he was the real deal, others were unconvinced.
00:29:04Next we have Annie on the line.
00:29:06Hi Annie, how are you?
00:29:08Thanks Ray, thank you for taking my call.
00:29:10My pleasure. What can I do for you?
00:29:12I just want to do a general rating.
00:29:17General, not just medical.
00:29:20I'm Hungarian by birth.
00:29:22My parents came out here when I was quite young.
00:29:25I've got a 15 year old daughter who lives with her mother in South Australia.
00:29:29My Christian name is actually Cholt, but I changed it to Ray.
00:29:33I think it's a more trustworthy name for a psychic.
00:29:39Australia's wog psychic of choice.
00:29:45Most of what I do is when I'm dealing with the sick or the dying,
00:29:50which I guess probably fits about a third of my clients,
00:29:53is to allow them the possibility that death is not the bitter end,
00:29:57that it's not the full stop,
00:30:01which is a consolation that I'm quite happy to give them,
00:30:04considering the fact that
00:30:06what happens after death is up for grabs anyway.
00:30:09There's somebody very close to you,
00:30:12someone you haven't seen for a while.
00:30:15Someone who is going to come back into your life.
00:30:18Someone who will be of great comfort to you.
00:30:21Really?
00:30:23Anyone that fits that pill?
00:30:25Yeah, I can. I can fix someone.
00:30:27Look, I won't lie to you Annie, I can see obstacles ahead of you,
00:30:30but I think that this person who's coming back to you
00:30:33is going to make a great difference
00:30:35and will be of great solace to you.
00:30:38Thanks, Ray.
00:30:40See you, Annie.
00:30:42See you, Annie.
00:30:59Where I come from, when someone dies, they block out all the mirrors in the house
00:31:03to stop the dead from finding their way back.
00:31:07There's things like that that make a difference.
00:31:18Hi, Annie. I'm Ray.
00:31:20You're going to die, Annie.
00:31:21That's just the start of something else, all right?
00:31:23It's just the end of your pain, okay?
00:31:32You're gonna die in here.
00:31:35It's just the start of something else, all right?
00:31:42Just love it.
00:31:49I liked Ray immediately.
00:31:51He wasn't what I expected.
00:31:53I don't know what I really did expect,
00:31:55but there was nothing kind of spooky or fake about him.
00:32:10Okay.
00:32:12Are we ready?
00:32:16I want you to close your eyes.
00:32:17I usually videotape my sessions so that they can be reviewed later by the clients,
00:32:23especially when there's elements of trance or hypnotism involved.
00:32:28I keep one copy for myself, one copy for them.
00:32:30Better to be safe than sorry.
00:32:33Okay, so you're standing outside your house.
00:32:35Tell me what you see.
00:32:44My house.
00:32:46It's a white house.
00:32:48I'm walking towards the front door.
00:32:50Okay.
00:32:51Now I want you to go inside the house.
00:32:54I want you to move slowly through the house.
00:32:56I want you to describe what you see.
00:33:01Where you are.
00:33:02Just give me a guided tour.
00:33:04Okay.
00:33:05I'm walking down the hallway towards Alice's room.
00:33:21What's there?
00:33:22I can see Alice's shoes outside her room.
00:33:36And what does that mean for you, Jane?
00:33:38She always used to leave her sneakers outside her room.
00:33:48So I want you to go inside her room now.
00:33:52Open the door and just move inside.
00:33:55You feel safe enough to go into Alice's room.
00:34:01Okay.
00:34:03Open the door.
00:34:08I'm going inside her room.
00:34:25You can see something, can't you?
00:34:28Tell me what you see, Jane.
00:34:32She's...
00:34:36Alice is sitting...
00:34:38in the wicker chair at the end of her bed.
00:34:49She looks sad.
00:34:57I first met Ray when June brought him home for dinner
00:34:59the night of her first consultation.
00:35:03And, yeah, I'm completely indifferent to psychics.
00:35:05I don't really have a position on them at all.
00:35:08I don't really want them to come round for dinner, mind you.
00:35:11But, you know, I didn't want to upset June either.
00:35:16He was a pleasant sort of a bloke.
00:35:18He wasn't spooky at all.
00:35:20I was on my best behaviour.
00:35:21How was your husband?
00:35:22How was your husband?
00:35:23A few days later, maybe a week later, I suggested to the family that we hold a seance.
00:35:28June was really keen but I remember Russell just flat out refused.
00:35:33I think Matthew finally talked his dad around.
00:35:37Matthew, how did you feel about having a seance held in your house?
00:35:39At the time I was actually kind of interested, sort of curious.
00:35:48I don't think Dad was thrilled about the idea.
00:35:52But, yeah, I thought it would be interesting and I suggested we film it.
00:35:59And, um, I recorded it just with our, uh, video camera, which is the PC9.
00:36:08I'm getting a strong presence in the room.
00:36:12In the house.
00:36:17I think we all thought that the seance was a failure.
00:36:20Um, Ray didn't really come up with anything with, kind of, with any signs or anything.
00:36:25So, um, after about an hour or so, we called it quits.
00:36:30And, um, it wasn't until the next day that, um, uh, Matthew was reviewing the, um, the footage that, uh, there was an image of Alice.
00:36:39Uh, the new footage was, um, completely different to the hallway footage.
00:36:54For, for one, it was significantly more detailed, so it was less ambiguous.
00:37:13And, uh, it was impossible to dismiss it as a, you know, a coincidence of shadow play and digital noise.
00:37:22There was something inexplicable in our house that was beyond doubt.
00:37:34I was concerned.
00:37:36This was pretty unfamiliar territory for me.
00:37:40I've never seen a ghost before.
00:37:42Uh, Ray got, uh, Matthew to help him set up three permanent cameras inside the house recording in time-lapse configurations 24 hours a day.
00:38:00Uh, there'd been a lot of speculation about Ray and, um, what he was doing there and, I mean, when, when people don't know, there, of course, leads to a lot of talk and a lot of speculation.
00:38:22I had heard rumours throughout July of video images purporting to be of an apparition in the house, uh, but I must say I was, um, sceptical as to their legitimacy.
00:38:35And your view on Ray?
00:38:39Also very sceptical.
00:38:41I think they had met some kind of Rasputin figure mesmerising the Palmers, stealing their money, doctoring the photos of Alice.
00:38:48Happy Birthday to you.
00:38:50Happy Birthday to you.
00:38:52Matthew in particular seemed to be really struggling.
00:38:55Happy Birthday to you, Matthew.
00:38:58Happy Birthday to you, Matthew.
00:39:00Happy Birthday to you.
00:39:02I thought I might be able to help just by, by being there, you know.
00:39:05Oh, 31.
00:39:08Beautiful.
00:39:09That said, my chief motivation was professional.
00:39:12Something was happening inside that house and I wanted to find out what it was.
00:39:15I thought it was.
00:39:45What was your reaction to these images?
00:40:13to these images oh we were completely gobsmacked by them um but before we had time to you know
00:40:22taking what they meant the withers video came out is it good yeah it's great can i have a look
00:40:32kathy and doug withers were at the dam on april the third
00:40:36the same day that the bob's meat photo was taken
00:40:43it was a couple of months later uh the end of july when we were looking at our footage
00:41:00that we shot down and came across yeah figure in the background which we um identified as bob's meat
00:41:09which interested us because there's um yeah clearly we didn't we sort of went oh it's the
00:41:15same day he was there when he captured the image that people have been talking about so then we
00:41:22then we went through all our footage to see if we perhaps might have captured that figure as well
00:41:27maybe maybe the camera had seen what bob saw yeah so we did find a figure in the background um like the
00:41:35image that had been described in his picture and then we looked more closely and um yeah doug zoomed
00:41:42in yeah well i got got right in uh on the computer and from what you know could have looked like a
00:41:49female figure from a long way away um up close and tight you could see that it definitely was neither
00:41:57female nor alice and it was matthew do you guys believe in guys no no no
00:42:11well this is where i was when the bob smeet photo was taken and i was wearing alice's jacket
00:42:16and i i looked up and i saw a man on the hill who he turned out to be bob smeet and um i didn't want
00:42:24to be you know photo uh so i walked off through the uh the bush what i didn't see was there was also
00:42:32a couple over there uh filming who turned out to be the withers
00:42:36when the withers thing came out dad came to me and asked me if i'd been involved
00:42:47in anything else and i didn't want to lie to him so i told him
00:43:00i explained to dad that i was responsible for the image of alice in the hallway
00:43:04uh and the bedroom and that i created the april 28 backyard photo and the seance image
00:43:12i just told him what i'd done okay so i've got two photos a photo of alice out of the backyard
00:43:19and um composited uh the images that's a photo that i took of alice mom kept uh talking about she was
00:43:28always talking about getting alice zoomed and she was really um she was really keen on this idea
00:43:32that dad had misidentified her body and so i knew that without more evidence it wasn't going to
00:43:37happen so i i made the photograph
00:43:44i just used an old video of alice
00:43:49and i played that on the tv i had the tv up on the bookcase and it was as simple as
00:43:56rotating the mirror so that the reflection of the tv came up in it and obviously the mirror is quite
00:44:03small so it cropped out the edges of the television and then yeah i just filmed that same with the
00:44:08kitchen and the bedroom what you see basically is alice on the television in the mirror
00:44:14like it wasn't about trying to trick people i guess it was like something was better than nothing
00:44:32do you think that what you did ultimately made it worse for june
00:44:35um i think that
00:44:46yeah yeah i probably i probably did make it harder for her but um then that wasn't that wasn't my intention
00:44:53i'm not quite so sure about his reasons i don't know that i
00:45:06totally um
00:45:11i don't want to say i i i don't totally believe what he said but um i'm just not convinced
00:45:19that he really knows why he did it
00:45:27when it all came out people wanted to do stories and
00:45:31books and women's magazines a whole lot just went pear-shaped
00:45:37oh look we just didn't know how to handle it i mean you know we had to protect maddie we had to
00:45:43protect ourselves we had to protect ali's memory and we just didn't have any experience of you know
00:45:50dealing with all this interest in something that was incredibly personal that people want to make
00:45:55incredibly public i mean the palmers weren't coping well at all at that point the things were very bad
00:46:02they were they were doing it tough this was like the end of hope for all of us but especially for june
00:46:14she just really wasn't ready to let ali go
00:46:21she just needed to hang on to her a little bit longer
00:46:23and i don't think she would admit it but she was devastated
00:46:40she's interesting girl she seemed to not get on with june so well i thought they actually were
00:46:49quite alike it was interesting that the two of them might not get on so well
00:46:56they always seemed very much alike and you could see that alice took took a lot after june but
00:47:04also other things have had become clear as well after alice's death that um perhaps a bit of a
00:47:10sense of the private arms that they both shared june was well still is um she keeps to herself a lot
00:47:24and it became clear that that was happening with alice too yeah the sense of privacy the sense of that
00:47:32there is their own private life that they will either choose to share or to not share i guess
00:47:40it's wonderful when your children come and that that new expression that that you have but uh
00:47:51as a as a mother you still always got doubts that uh you're not doing enough or you're not doing the
00:47:57right thing partly blame myself that's come from me maybe it came from my mother
00:48:07i've never been able to um i've never been able to give myself over holy to um to june
00:48:22i feel june is a little like that too that she couldn't give herself wholly to alice
00:48:38i hope that alice did know how much i loved her i guess i held something back a little as she grew older
00:48:48that would be the saddest thing would think she might not know
00:48:51ray suggested that matthew accompany him on one of his um country victorian tours
00:49:08um when he was doing consultations and um methi jumped at the chance
00:49:25i think i realized when i was away how much i missed dallas and that i was never going to be able
00:49:44to speak to her again i guess that's something that all of ray's clients are coming to terms with
00:49:51um you know they want to talk to someone or make contact with someone they'd lost and
00:49:58so did i so i i was sort of one of race clients in a way as well
00:50:10no no what do you think is going to happen it's going to hit me and then i'm going to get angry
00:50:17that's what's going to happen that's what's going to happen no watch yourself
00:50:25all right
00:50:41get out
00:50:47it's going to happen
00:50:50when me and ray went on the tour we left the two rented cameras where they were in the hallway
00:50:57i was sure there was still something in the house
00:51:02and obviously because we were away for the three days we um you know we couldn't change the tapes or
00:51:07anything so um when you were probably going to get about like a day and a half of footage but we left
00:51:13them running and um got back on august 22nd at which point we checked the tapes
00:51:32that
00:51:47only russell and i were in the house when these images were recorded matthew couldn't have had anything to
00:51:53do with them
00:51:56they seemed to prove that there was a ghost in the house alice's ghost
00:52:02do you believe in ghosts
00:52:14i didn't used to but um
00:52:19it's a hard thing to prove or disprove
00:52:22i think
00:52:30yeah sometimes i think maybe they do exist
00:52:34because it's everywhere it's a scary world
00:52:38i don't know why it's important like how it helps people like dealing with
00:52:44her loss like making up stories about ghosts or whatever
00:52:53it threw a question mark over everything i went back and reviewed all the footage that
00:52:58had come before all the material taken inside the house following alice's death
00:53:09it was while i was looking at matthew's june 13 hallway material again
00:53:14that i noticed something in the image
00:53:18there was a second figure not matthew in the hallway but someone else
00:53:23squatting in the dark in alice's room
00:53:25at first i thought it was alice
00:53:30then i realized it was our neighbor brettui
00:53:43what was this man doing in my house in my daughter's room more than six months after her death
00:53:55when i found alice's safe i realized exactly why he'd been there
00:54:05he was looking for the tape
00:54:10that's it
00:54:25it was such a
00:54:40it was such a not like it wasn't a very nice day yeah
00:54:44oh you did smokey
00:54:44i just
00:54:48alice began babysitting for the two is in 2002 and she continued for the next two and a half years
00:54:56the two is two boys were five and nine years old
00:54:59I literally just couldn't believe my eyes.
00:55:11It just made me feel so sad.
00:55:20As far as I'm concerned, the Tuis were complicit in Ali's death.
00:55:24I believe that if it hadn't been for them, she would have reached out to us.
00:55:27She wouldn't have felt guilty.
00:55:30She wouldn't have felt the burden of that secret.
00:55:34She wouldn't have been isolated.
00:55:40How do you feel towards Brent now?
00:55:43If he was around the corner, I'd probably throttled him.
00:55:47He seemed like a nice guy.
00:55:49You know, like, he was nice.
00:55:52He'd speak and he was never like, you know, nasty or anything like that.
00:55:57He had, like, a pool at his place and usually...
00:56:00We used to swim there sometimes.
00:56:01Yeah.
00:56:02In the summer.
00:56:03So usually we'd just go to his place and have a swim there.
00:56:07I was really bewildered about, you know, what happened.
00:56:10So it took a lot just to realise.
00:56:13Because, you know, I had no idea that Alice would...
00:56:16No, be with somebody.
00:56:17I know.
00:56:18Yeah.
00:56:19It was like a complete surprise.
00:56:20Like, we just didn't think, you know, she'd do something like that.
00:56:24Yeah.
00:56:25Why do you think Alice had the tape?
00:56:30No.
00:56:31Because she didn't want them to have it.
00:56:35Why's that?
00:56:36Didn't trust them anymore, I think.
00:56:40They must have been really desperate to get that tape.
00:56:44From the moment that they'd heard of Alice's death,
00:56:48they would have been living in this constant fear of being found out.
00:56:55I'm glad he couldn't find it.
00:56:58I'm glad he knows it's not over.
00:57:04I had a lot of personal dealings with the Palmers during this time
00:57:07as part of the investigating team trying to locate
00:57:10Brett and Marissa Toohey and family.
00:57:13And initially, we were optimistic that they would be found
00:57:18and charges laid.
00:57:20But unfortunately, the leads that we were working with
00:57:23soon dried up and so the investigation stalled.
00:57:28So police advice to us was that even if the Toohey's were caught,
00:57:31they would get off with a suspended sentence
00:57:33by claiming that the sex was consensual,
00:57:36which was a claim, you know, supported by the video evidence.
00:57:40Jason, did you know about Alice's involvement with Brett?
00:57:43Brett?
00:57:44Um, no.
00:57:46No one did.
00:57:48I...
00:57:49Obviously I didn't...
00:57:51We wouldn't be going out if I did.
00:57:53It was...
00:57:54Nah.
00:57:56I thought we were...
00:57:58I thought we were pretty good.
00:58:00It just left so many unanswered questions.
00:58:14Um, why was she involved with him?
00:58:17When did the relationship begin?
00:58:19Was she in love with either of them?
00:58:22I just don't know.
00:58:30The Toohey sold their house and moved six months after Alice died.
00:58:34Alice kept secrets.
00:58:47She...
00:58:49kept the fact she kept secrets a secret.
00:58:53Which does change the way that you see somebody, I suppose,
00:58:56when you realise that, that they did hide things from you a bit.
00:58:59I think I knew one Alice and maybe her mum knew another
00:59:05and there was another one again that none of us knew.
00:59:08Maybe.
00:59:09Maybe.
00:59:24I found Ray's business card taped to Alice's diary
00:59:27on the page marked 12th of July, 2005.
00:59:30Why have you come to see me, Alice?
00:59:38Can you interpret dreams?
00:59:40Hm?
00:59:41Sometimes.
00:59:43How do you feel when you wake up from these dreams?
00:59:47Um...
00:59:51They scare me a bit.
00:59:52Alice came to see me about five months before she died.
00:59:55I think she'd heard me on the radio a few times
00:59:58and rang and made an appointment.
01:00:00Take a deep breath, close your eyes.
01:00:03I want you to imagine you're standing outside your house
01:00:05when you can see that you tell me.
01:00:16Okay?
01:00:17Yeah.
01:00:20Alright.
01:00:21I want you to go inside the front door.
01:00:24Go into the house.
01:00:25Tell me what you see, where you are.
01:00:28Ray, why did you tell Jane that you'd actually met Alice before?
01:00:30Um, I'm in the...
01:00:33In the entrance hall.
01:00:34Look, I don't think it was a case of hiding something from them.
01:00:36It was more that I was honouring Alice's request for confidentiality.
01:00:40But it was damned if you do, damned if you don't, you know.
01:00:43The living room's just...
01:00:46It's directly ahead.
01:00:48Then you go to your right.
01:00:50And my room's in the back part of the house
01:00:52as you go towards the kitchen.
01:00:56Do you see anything unusual or anything different?
01:01:02No.
01:01:03No, we didn't feel like we could trust Ray anymore.
01:01:07Um, for whatever reasons he had,
01:01:10keeping that information to himself,
01:01:11it still felt like a betrayal.
01:01:20I wanted to help June and the family
01:01:21and I think they wanted me to help them.
01:01:24I wouldn't have been able to do it if I'd known.
01:01:26There was a fair bit of resentment.
01:01:31Matthew wouldn't even speak to me.
01:01:33But what I think really hurt them more than anything
01:01:35was what they saw as my failure to see Alice's imminent passing.
01:01:41Looking back, like, it's kind of strange
01:01:45that someone would, you know, be as close to us as he was.
01:01:49Um, I think maybe he needed us as much as we needed him.
01:02:08Alice came to see me because she was upset.
01:02:12She was a very troubled person.
01:02:16I had a dream last night.
01:02:19I was cold and wet.
01:02:21I felt heavy, like I'd been drunk.
01:02:24And when I woke up, these sensations didn't go.
01:02:28I was feeling sick and confused
01:02:31and I was starting to get scared.
01:02:35I needed to see mum to talk to her.
01:02:39I stumbled to her room
01:02:41and as I stood there at the bed watching them,
01:02:43I was overcome by this intense sadness.
01:02:48Then the sadness turned to fear.
01:02:51I just stood there paralysed with fear
01:02:54and I realised there was nothing that they could do for me anymore.
01:02:58I've never felt so utterly alone.
01:03:01Everything felt wrong.
01:03:03My body, the way things looked.
01:03:07Then I realised that there was something wrong with me.
01:03:14I started to cry standing there at the foot of the bed.
01:03:37Lake Mungo is in southwestern New South Wales
01:03:53and that was the location of the school camp that Alice went on
01:03:57from August the 2nd to the 5th in 2005.
01:04:01When she came home, she said she'd had a good time.
01:04:07I do particularly remember it
01:04:09because she came home without her mobile phone,
01:04:12which we'd bought her a month previously,
01:04:15and her favourite bracelet and watch.
01:04:17Yes, other than that, you know, she didn't really talk about it too much.
01:04:23She didn't really talk about it too much.
01:04:35Well, Kim didn't show me until about a year after she got back from camp,
01:04:38the stuff that she'd taken on her mobile phone.
01:04:41So why did you decide to tell June?
01:04:42Um, well, if we, if we didn't tell June, then it would be like we were hiding something.
01:04:49So, I don't know why, um, I don't know why, but why not?
01:04:57I don't know why, but why not?
01:05:04Jason told us about the phone footage that the girls had taken at Lake Mungo.
01:05:17The other girls were looking so happy and she looked quite forlorn.
01:05:23I was worried, I, I became convinced that something had happened to her.
01:05:37Kate's phone footage was taken later that night
01:05:40once the girls had spread out over the lunettes.
01:05:43Anywhere, like where?
01:05:46Like Africa, like the desert.
01:05:50There was an image of Alice, very hard to decipher in the bottom of the frame,
01:05:56kneeling under a tree.
01:06:00It was only after viewing the clip several times that we realised what she was doing.
01:06:05She was burying something.
01:06:11I mean, did you know what had happened that night with Alice?
01:06:13No.
01:06:16Um, I knew she'd lost her phone.
01:06:19I knew she was upset.
01:06:23Because that was pretty obvious.
01:06:25But I didn't know why she was upset.
01:06:27She didn't say that she'd seen anything, she didn't really say anything to me.
01:06:32I didn't really, perhaps, take it that seriously at the time.
01:06:34You know, it was like context, you know, we were just having a good time and I just thought she had gotten a bit upset.
01:06:43It started simply enough, um, Alice left the group and started walking off by herself.
01:07:04But it was obviously something was distressing her.
01:07:10And we wanted to try and find out what it was.
01:07:13We understood from the phone video that she'd buried something.
01:07:35We had an idea where that tree was because of what we could see from the, from the video.
01:07:41We didn't really want to go down during the daytime because, you know, we didn't want to be digging, you know, where tourists were.
01:07:54So we decided to go at night.
01:07:56I tried to just go there.
01:07:58I can't say it.
01:08:01I can't say it.
01:08:03Well...
01:08:07June and I started digging and after a bit June said she'd found something and she pulled
01:08:21out a plastic bag and inside the plastic bag there was Ali's favourite necklace, her ring,
01:08:29her watch, her mobile phone, her most precious things buried out here on a school camp and
01:08:40we didn't know why she did that. I mean we knew from the video that she'd buried something
01:08:45but we didn't know what it was.
01:08:59Are you scared of dying?
01:09:14Yeah of course I'm scared of dying. Isn't everyone scared of dying?
01:09:24Would you like to tell me a little bit about what happens in these dreams?
01:09:28I feel like something bad is going to happen to me. I feel like something bad has happened.
01:09:38It hasn't reached me yet but it's on its way.
01:09:43And it's getting closer. And I don't feel ready. I feel like I can't undo anything.
01:09:55At some point this figure came towards her from out of the darkness.
01:10:14I recognised the face as soon as I saw it on the phone video. It was the same face of the body
01:10:21that I had identified at the dam. It was Ali's body and Ali's face.
01:10:27There is absolutely no rational explanation for what she saw on that phone.
01:10:45We have no problem.
01:11:03Stay far away from me.
01:11:04I'm doing it.
01:11:09Oh my god, this is coming up!
01:11:25I am convinced that Alice knew she was going to die.
01:11:49I'm convinced of that.
01:11:53I think the figure at Lake Mungo was an omen for her.
01:11:58The burial of her possessions was symbolic.
01:12:03It was a ritual.
01:12:08No, I was never convinced that Alice believed she was going to die.
01:12:12She had morbid thoughts, sure. I mean, who doesn't?
01:12:16And, you know, she had nightmares that upset her enough to consult Ray.
01:12:22I don't know that anybody is really convinced that they are going to die.
01:12:32And what about the image of the Lake Mungo? How do you think Alice would have explained that?
01:12:37How could she have explained it?
01:12:46I think Alice saw a ghost.
01:12:49But she wasn't to know that it was her own.
01:12:53I believe she recorded a ghost.
01:12:55I believe she recorded the future coming to get her.
01:13:00We found out about the Tuwys, Ray, what had happened at Lake Mungo.
01:13:10And by the time we returned home, the house felt different. It was, um, calm.
01:13:34I think that Alice wanted us to know more about her.
01:13:50She wanted us to know who she really was before she, you know, before she could leave.
01:14:03In the weeks and months after Lake Mungo, we started to feel like a family again.
01:14:13Um, it just crept up on us, really.
01:14:16We were all a little battered and wobbly, but we were a family all the same.
01:14:22Ray called out of the blue and said he was going to be coming through town
01:14:39and asked if it was alright if he could come round and visit.
01:14:43Six months had gone by and I just felt that, um, under the circumstances,
01:14:50I don't think it could do any harm.
01:14:56I think we all felt that after Mungo, in our own ways,
01:15:01there'd been closure, I suppose, to a degree.
01:15:04And, you know, for each of it, it's different.
01:15:07And for each of it, we've made our own piece.
01:15:10It seems strange to me that Alice should, you know, withdraw so abruptly.
01:15:22I mean, we didn't help her. We didn't change anything.
01:15:27I think we just, uh, collectively made a decision to move forward.
01:15:33You know, moving was really a big part of all that.
01:15:39Exciting to move.
01:15:41It will be difficult to leave the house.
01:15:59Sometimes, you know, I just forget that she's, she's not coming back.
01:16:13I forget.
01:16:15How can you do what?
01:16:34Before we move.
01:16:40Okay, close your eyes and imagine that you're back standing outside the house.
01:16:56Can you see it?
01:17:02Go inside the house.
01:17:06I'm going through the front door and walking down the hall towards Alice's room.
01:17:24Someone's there. I think someone's coming down the hall.
01:17:29Door's open.
01:17:33Do you know who it is?
01:17:35Do you want to go inside?
01:17:50Yeah.
01:17:53Okay.
01:17:56What do you see?
01:18:08My mum.
01:18:11What's she saying?
01:18:13She's not saying anything.
01:18:16I don't think she knows I'm there.
01:18:25Alice isn't here.
01:18:30She's not here.
01:18:32She's not here.
01:18:35What's happening, Alice?
01:18:37Are you talking to her? Is she talking to you?
01:18:41Oh, she's going now.
01:18:44She's leaving the room.
01:18:47She's gone.
01:18:48Open your eyes.
01:19:02This is her seat.
01:19:03She's leaving the room.
01:19:05She's leaving.
01:19:08I've been waiting for her.
01:19:10She's leaving the room.
01:19:11I knew she was leaving.
01:19:12She's leaving the room.
01:19:13I'm sorry.
01:19:14She's leaving.
01:19:15I'm sorry.
01:19:16The room is waiting for her.
01:19:47She's, she's going now.
01:19:52She's leaving the room.
01:20:03Good boy.
01:20:17She's gone.
01:20:25Good boy.
01:20:55Happy birthday to you.
01:21:11Happy birthday to you.
01:21:15Happy birthday to you.
01:21:31Happy birthday to you.
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