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00:00I would start with your latest book, Karuna, The Power of Compassion.
00:05I was just going through the prologue and trying to understand this latest publication
00:11from you.
00:12I understand you have decades of work behind you and you are one of the tallest leaders
00:18in this field.
00:20You talk about compassion, you talk about compassion coefficient, CQ is something that
00:24you have pointed out in this book as well.
00:27I have heard about IQ, I have heard about EQ as well.
00:31What is CQ?
00:33So you rightly pointed out that the world is facing complex problems, lot of crisis.
00:51But despite all the wealth and knowledge and power the people are suffering, planet is suffering.
01:02So I was thinking that what could be sustainable solution to these issues.
01:10Because the situation is that whenever any solution is found, the problems are born out of solutions.
01:21That is a very, very serious situation.
01:25People talk of say solving the poverty, GDP.
01:30When all the policies and programs are driven in that direction and GDP means more consumption,
01:37means more production, means more industrialization and that means the earth has to suffer for that.
01:47So mineral, water, fresh air, coal, everything is utilized for industrialization.
02:00So that consumption and production and GDP can grow.
02:04So the planet is suffering because of that.
02:08So I realized that compassion is the solution.
02:11But my compassion, the definition of my compassion is different.
02:17It is not kindness, mercy, pity, it is not even sympathy or empathy.
02:27People put all these phrases in one basket.
02:33But I redefined and reinvigorated the power of compassion.
02:38So compassion is not a soft emotion or a value or virtue.
02:42But compassion is a force born from feeling the suffering of others as one's own suffering.
02:51And that force drives to take mindful action.
02:55In simplest word, compassion is mindful problem solving.
03:00So when I talk about compassion quotient,
03:08First of all, we have to understand that all of us are born with innate power of compassion.
03:16So consciousness and compassion are the two natural gifts or divine gifts.
03:23But we keep on losing the track on compassion.
03:28Because of all the upbringing, all the education systems, all the environment, socio-cultural, political
03:37environment.
03:38We have lost the power and importance of compassion as a transformative force.
03:49So if everybody is having compassion, we can measure it and then we can enhance it.
03:56So measuring the compassion and enhancing it is CQ, compassion quotient.
04:04IQ and EQ are very individualistic but CQ is not.
04:09Because CQ is determined on four core components and they are all measurable.
04:16The first one is awareness, taking cognizance of others' problems and sufferings.
04:25That is one.
04:27The second one is connectedness.
04:31We have to feel connectedness to each other because the whole evolution of human civilization
04:39is driven by that tendency to be connected with each other.
04:44But that connection has to be genuine connection.
04:47So that we can go to the third part of it and that is feeling.
04:52Feeling should be deep feeling where you feel the problems of others as your own problem.
04:58And the fourth is action.
05:00So when you feel others' problem and it gives birth to a force, then that force becomes the
05:09problem solver.
05:11So compassion is force, compassion is action, compassion is problem solving.
05:20Compassion has enormous power to question the wrongs and injustices around us.
05:24And compassion also helps in finding answers.
05:28So CQ is something very new but I am confident that this is going to be the game changer but
05:37that is also going to be something which everyone will apply in their lives.
05:43Made we making decisions about choosing partners and marriages or made we implying people in the
05:53corporations and in the offices, CQ would be the defining factor in the future.
06:00Great.
06:01Sir from Diyasalai, your autobiography that was revealed last year to Karuna.
06:09How different is the power of compassion Karuna from your autobiography and what was the inspiration
06:15behind this book?
06:16So Diyasalai is autobiography but in that it was clear that my whole life and my struggle,
06:27my failures and my success and everything which I could accomplish has been guided and strengthened
06:38and driven by the power of compassion.
06:42And on the basis of that I started realizing that it is not just me.
06:47There are hundreds, thousands of people who brought transformation in the society, who fought
06:55for justice and equality and peace and sustainability.
06:59Their driving force has also been compassion.
07:05I am quite convinced that all the religions in the world were born out of the spark of compassion.
07:12When Jesus Christ, when Hazrat Muhammad Saab, when Buddha, when Gandhi, when Mahaveer, when
07:22Abraham, whosoever, Guru Nanak Dev, when they felt the suffering and problems of the masses so
07:32deeply as their own problems, own sufferings, they did not sit quiet.
07:40They did not overwhelmed and just gave up but they have taken a conscious decision and action
07:47to fight for elevating those problems, those sufferings and how the religions were born.
07:57And similarly all the revolutions and social transformations, they were born out of the spark of compassion.
08:05So I thought that what the world needs today is compassion and that was one of the reasons
08:15I have penned down some of my thoughts based on my experience but also the experiences of other
08:20people.
08:22But then I realized that if we take compassion in the conventional manner, then the people
08:31think that it is just kindness or a good human quality but this is not.
08:39So compassion is transformative, dynamic and disruptive force.
08:48Because no other way we can solve the deep-rooted problems of injustice.
08:57It could be the gender discrimination, it could be the racial discrimination, it could be the
09:06hatred and violence in the minds and in the society that is growing and systematically being spread
09:15globally.
09:17We have to go to this new idea of compassion as force as action.
09:26So this book defines all these details and I also feel that there is a need of self-compassion
09:41also.
09:44Self-compassion will help us in many manner because today's world has one out of six people having
09:56depression, isolation, different kind of mental stresses and loneliness, primarily loneliness
10:08that leads to several other issues.
10:10So self-compassion will help in finding out the best friend inside everyone and that best friend
10:20will help not to be dwelled or not to be overwhelmed with a sense of self-glory or self-criticism or self-worthlessness.
10:33So it will unbiasedly and objectively help in showing us the mirror so that we can learn about ourself
10:43and we can improvise every day every minute.
10:46And then comes to the kin compassion.
10:48So today when the family values are diminishing and the families are breaking people live in this
10:55kind of aggressive competitiveness and competition even in the families.
11:01So it will help in bringing together the values of familyhood that is the kin compassion and the
11:07social compassion.
11:08So in all walks of life, may it be a judiciary or police, may it be politics or governance,
11:20may it be education and academia as well as in health sector, everywhere in all the organizations
11:32we need the higher CQ, higher level of compassion and that will help in creating a compassionate
11:42society and compassionate community.
11:44And finally the fourth aspect of compassion is transformative compassion.
11:51As I said before that there are very serious, structural, systematic sufferings and injustices
12:00and they can be solved only when we feel connected with those problems and those sufferers.
12:05And then with that force of compassion we take action.
12:10Great.
12:11Sir, you speak so strongly about compassion.
12:16You talk about having a compassionate society, a compassionate family.
12:21Yet we see in today's world how globalization is changing, how things are changing every other day.
12:27We see countries trying to, you know, larger countries, more powerful countries trying to bully,
12:33if I may use the word, the other countries.
12:35For example, what we see how the geopolitics, the scenario is right now.
12:40In this world where children are living in this environment, they are growing seeing this.
12:46Do you think it would impact their understanding of compassion?
12:50Do you think it would also impact their behavior if they see global leaders who once were considered,
12:55you know, the epitome of, if I may say, the epitome of compassion or, you know, giving other person the chance.
13:03Do you see something like that that is not happening right now impacting children's behavior as well?
13:09I don't think that the young generation today see those leaders as the epitome of compassion or goodness or honesty.
13:22Over the years, right, over the decades, these values and virtues have shrinked.
13:32There is a serious deficit in those things.
13:35But in both ways, we see a lot of optimism.
13:42One is that there are good leaders, good leaders in faith institutions, good leaders in politics, good leaders in all walks of life.
13:51Very few, but they are there.
13:53But their voices are not so loud as we say that evil runs very fast and evil speaks loudest.
14:05On the other hand, goodness walks slowly and goodness has, does not have that louder voice.
14:14So, that is sometimes silence.
14:16So, in this case, we have, we have to find those leaders in all walks of life, all societal situations.
14:25But on the other hand, young people, you are right, Nisharji, that it is, is it not as shameful that 473 million, I say,
14:39more than 47 crore children are living in war-prone areas where the violence, conflict, insurgencies are taking place.
14:56They are not responsible for any war.
14:59They are not responsible for any kind of this violence, but they are the worst sufferers.
15:05Young children, 47 crore globally.
15:10What is the fault of those children who are being killed in Gaza, innocent children?
15:17Sometimes they die out of hunger, food is there, but the food trucks are stopped at a distance.
15:24What is their fault?
15:25That they are injured, they are sick and their medicines don't reach to them.
15:31It is stopped by those people.
15:33So, children must not pay the price of what the adults do.
15:38Adults have to go for more compassionate diplomacy and compassionate dialogue.
15:44That is the need of the hour.
15:48So, say 138 million, more than 13 crore children are languishing in child labour and modern day slavery.
15:59Some of them are sold and bought like animals or sometimes even lesser prices than the animals.
16:06Whose fault is this?
16:08This is our fault.
16:10And whose children are these?
16:11These are all our children.
16:13They are your children, they are my children.
16:15And until and unless that sense of belongingness and connectedness with the children and sense of moral responsibility arises,
16:22I am sorry to say that no scheme, no law, no good words, no sermon can protect these children and their childhood.
16:32And that's why we have to globalize compassion.
16:37We have globalized markets, economies, data, we have globalized information, even we have globalized extremism,
16:45and that is growing very fast, communalism, all kind of things, global warming.
16:50But this is the time to globalize compassion.
16:54And if India, if the Indians cannot take the lead, take the initiative in globalization of compassion,
17:02who have such a great history and legacy, who else will do?
17:11So, we have to go for globalization of compassion.
17:17Sir, Satyarthi Movement for Global Compassion as we are speaking about compassion.
17:21Can you throw some light on the work that it does and how different it is from your previous initiatives,
17:28previous successful initiatives?
17:30How different is this and how do you see it working for the next, let's say, one decade?
17:36So, well, the roots and foundation of this new initiative or new movement,
17:41Satyarthi Movement for Global Compassion, are my previous movements and campaigns and organizations.
17:50And of course, learning, what I have learned in that.
17:55But in all those efforts, I have realized that we have to deepen and expand the solution-oriented,
18:06sustainable solution-oriented approach.
18:12And children's issues cannot be solved in isolation.
18:16When the world is burning, when the people are ready to fight with each other without no reason
18:23and the children have to pay the cost, then it is important, it is rather necessary
18:29that we have to look for more deeper and broader solution.
18:34And I found that it is possible only through launching a worldwide movement for compassion.
18:41So, SMGC, the Satyarthi Movement for Global Compassion, has been widely supported in less than one and a half year.
18:51It has been strongly supported by a number of Nobel laureates, peace laureates and laureates from other disciplines,
18:58world leaders, presidents, prime ministers, kings, queens and former head of the state.
19:04Head of the state.
19:05So, I am quite confident that our world is looking for some other alternate way of tackling, dealing with the present complex issues.
19:25And people started resonating with it, even the young people.
19:32I would always say that youth are filled with compassion and passion both.
19:38So, their passion, their energy, their dreams should get a reason and a purpose to make the world a better place.
19:50And that is possible through compassion.
19:52So, in universities and colleges and other places, wherever I spoke about my definition of compassion as selfish, mindful, problem solving.
20:04They like it in the simple words, not as a philosophical thing or ideological or religious thing.
20:10So, compassion is a secular definition.
20:17Right.
20:18It is not related to any religion.
20:20As I say that religious leaders and the faith institutions perhaps think that they are preaching compassion.
20:30But that compassion remains hollow if they do not understand that their mother, their seed, their first spark is compassion.
20:38They are born out of compassion and they should live compassion rather than they preach compassion.
20:44So, preaching is not going to solve any problem until unless we live it in our life, we are not able to be compassionate.
20:53So, compassion is not preaching, not teaching, I am not a preacher or teacher of compassion.
21:01I had made a way of life and that's why with utmost humility I would say that everybody has that power of compassion.
21:14And we can remove the layers which have been put on it and then we can definitely be a good human being and a good world.
21:24Wonderful sir.
21:25I was recently speaking to Sunita Krishnanji, yet another tall leader in the field of anti-human trafficking.
21:33And she portrayed a very scary situation in India when I asked her how technology, whether technology had made it easier, you know, to track people, you know, to track these who are in human trafficking.
21:48But what she told me that the situation in the last few years has become more severe and more and more children, like they even don't know that who exactly is trying to traffic them.
22:01It's because it's an unseen enemy out there in the digital world.
22:06Do you see something similar happening or how do you see the problem of human trafficking evolving in India?
22:13Well, I have big respect for my younger sister Sunita Krishnanji.
22:20And she is one of the bravest fighters against human slavery and trafficking of girls in particular.
22:30So, I agree with her that this is a situation and trafficking is not a simple ordinary crime.
22:40This is an organized crime.
22:41Exactly.
22:42And there are many forces involved in it because human trafficking is one of the most lucrative illicit trade in the world.
22:51So, that is a global situation.
22:55And now, it is cross-border.
22:58It is not just terrorism and other things are cross-border but trafficking is the cross-border and technology made it easier and comfortable and hidden, invisible.
23:10So, the invisible hands are taking away young girls and young boys from the laps of their parents and somehow they were taken to a situation where they cannot come back perhaps.
23:32So, lot of work has to be done in prevention.
23:37Lot of work is needed in India also for the prosecution and conviction of those people and technology has to be used for it widely.
23:48We are very very fast growing technology and this place Hyderabad is the hub of technology and advancement in technology.
23:58So, it is important that technology should be the severe for such children and such women and such people who are victims of human slavery and trafficking.
24:13It should not just remain in the hands of your people to earn more and more money and you know accumulate wealth using technology as a tool.
24:24But that could be a powerful tool when it is in the hands of those who believe in the freedom, dignity and justice of children especially but all vulnerable sections of society.
24:42Right, sir.
24:44Sir, I would also take the opportunity to speak about this controversy, recent controversy around Nobel Prize.
24:51How we see the world's most powerful person repeatedly demanding that he should be given a Nobel Peace Prize for all the wars that he has stopped.
25:01How do you see this? Do you see that it somehow sort of diminishes the prestige of the coveted prize?
25:09I mean you being one of the laureates.
25:11I mean you being one of the laureates.
25:12This is a funny situation but I tell you one thing.
25:16In last few weeks, many people started knowing me and respecting me and they learned that oh, there is an Indian, he is a Nobel Peace Laureate.
25:31People understood the value of Nobel Peace Prize bigger than being the President of United States of America.
25:40Otherwise, why he is after the prize?
25:45So, it is good for me and good for many other Nobel laureates.
25:49So, ordinary people understood the value of it but everybody can do good work and get the prize but prize should not be the end goal.
26:11When I received the prize, people asked me the question that now you have become the celebrity, you have become the first Indian born Indian to get the Peace Prize and so on and so forth.
26:20But I said that this is just a comma in my life. This is not going to make an exclusive person, celebrity, khas admi, you know.
26:34It is a comma in my life. So, I will keep on working and fighting for my cause.
26:43I would wish that President Trump can get the Nobel Prize but it requires other approach.
26:51It requires other mindset as far as I know other Peace Laureates but I wish him all success in his life.
27:01Great. Sir, if we come back to India and I was going through a lot of speech and interviews of yours.
27:10You spoke about Devli and that day that you must have talked about it a lot of times but I request you if you could revisit that incident and tell our viewers how exactly was it that she was saved?
27:24And what was that emotion that you felt when she said that why didn't you come earlier?
27:30Yeah.
27:31Which was the name of your book you mentioned.
27:33Yeah, true.
27:34Why didn't you come sooner?
27:36Sure.
27:37So, it was in a Rajasthanic kind of dialect, Hindi.
27:43Tu pehle kiwni ayo?
27:45That was her words.
27:47And whenever I feel about it, I feel that we as human race are not yet civilized.
28:03If one single child is in danger, how we can say that the world is safe?
28:12If one single girl is left in slavery, how we can say that the world is free or democratic?
28:28There was an incident when I learned that some families have been kept in bonded labor and slavery at an illegally run stone quarry in Haryana.
28:46And that quarry was illegally run because it was essentially belonging to a very powerful family.
28:57Politically.
28:58Political family.
28:59Yes.
29:00The chief minister and minister and one of the family members was a parliament member.
29:11So, when we tried to approach the local authorities and tried to rescue them, no government official agreed to go there.
29:23And they completely denied that there is something like that.
29:27There is a legally run quarry or there are slave laborers.
29:32So, we had to plan overnight and then we did some recce work in two, three nights.
29:39And then we realized that in the morning we can go and rescue those people.
29:45By the time we learned that there were children who were born and grew up there.
29:50And there were parents who were also born and grew up there.
29:54And their grandparents who have been enslaved were trafficked from Rajasthan to work in Haryana.
30:00So, three generations.
30:02So, that was a very, very risky, very, very dangerous situation.
30:06But I love these kind of operations.
30:10So, me and my friends decided to go early in the morning knowing that this gunman or the watchman are not there in the morning.
30:25There was a man carrying the gun who could kill us but he used to go to freshen up in the morning to the nearby village.
30:33So, we went there and were able to rescue more than 50 children, women and men.
30:42We were having a truck.
30:44So, all the adult people and grown up children were put into the truck.
30:52And I was driving my car, big car.
30:56So, younger children, six, seven, eight year old, ten year old, I think eight or nine children were pulled into my car.
31:08And when we were driving fast because if we are slow then the world will go out and the people can come and kill us.
31:17And snatched away the children.
31:19It has happened several times.
31:20My three colleagues have been killed.
31:23I mean two were killed and one was dead.
31:26So, I was driving fast.
31:32And then I saw that all these children were under shock, traumatized.
31:38So, I thought that there are some bunches of bananas lying in the back of the car.
31:45So, I asked these children who were sitting in the back seat that please eat these bananas and pass it on to the front row.
31:59So, the child who was sitting in the back touched the banana bunch but he didn't know what banana was.
32:11So, he passed it on to the front seat.
32:14So, children started looking at the banana and they started murmuring what kind of onion is it?
32:22What kind of potato is it?
32:25They had no idea about banana or any other thing other than potato and onion since their childhood, since they were born.
32:34They did not taste it.
32:35So, they did not understand.
32:37So, then I insisted to eat it.
32:42I said this is sweet, please eat it.
32:46So, they started eating banana.
32:50And then I saw that some of them trying to eat it.
32:56Some of them had no idea so they were just putting in the mouth and throwing it away.
33:01And then suddenly I felt that how stupid was I.
33:10I did not teach them how to eat banana when they had no idea about banana.
33:16So, I told them that please peel it and eat.
33:22So, I taught how to peel it while I was driving with one hand and peeled one banana.
33:29And some of them started eating but most of them threw it away because they had no taste of sweet.
33:38And then suddenly I felt a heavy hand.
33:43It was heavy because it was a hand of a child.
33:48Eight-year-old child who was breaking stones with hammer.
33:53So, her hand was like hammer.
33:55But when I looked at her, I could not express my feeling.
34:02Because so many emotions appeared on her face in one go.
34:10A sense of belongingness with the humanity.
34:15Anger, deep sorrow, complain and some expectation.
34:24When she asked,
34:27That means why didn't you come?
34:32Oh man, why didn't you come sooner?
34:35It was not just because of banana.
34:40She has seen that how her father was poked with biddies, burned with biddies.
34:48Because he tried to stop, but he failed.
34:52He tried to stop the rape of his wife, this girl's mother.
35:02She has also seen that how her younger brother died in her lap.
35:09Because there was no medication.
35:12I knew this before.
35:15And I started crying.
35:17I could not hold myself.
35:19When she says, why didn't you come sooner?
35:21That was not the question to me.
35:23That was the challenge to everyone who believe in constitution, in laws.
35:29That was the challenge to all those people who believe in any holy book, in any holy man, in any religion.
35:36Humanity.
35:37This was the challenge to everyone.
35:39Why didn't you come sooner?
35:42What stopped us?
35:44We can speak.
35:45We can write.
35:46We can do something.
35:47We can make complaints.
35:48Social media is in our hands.
35:50But what we need is connectedness, awareness, feeling and action.
35:59And this is exactly compassion in my definition.
36:04So for young activists, as you speak of taking action, you know, doing something about it.
36:09What would be the, if I say, something actionable from you.
36:13What would you suggest them, if they want to come into this field and you know, in activism or in anti-human trafficking.
36:19What would be your suggestions to them?
36:22Well, there is no training for it.
36:25I mean, there are training for social work.
36:27There are training schools and so on.
36:29But what I am simply saying, that to be compassionate is not such a difficult thing.
36:40The only thing begins with, say, very simple thing.
36:48Think of being grateful to someone who have helped you during the day.
36:54It can begin with your parents, it could begin with your teacher, your friends, your siblings, whosoever, your neighbour, relatives.
37:05Even if we are sitting in a room, then we have to be grateful to all those workers, the labourers, the electrician, plumber, woodman, craftman.
37:21Those who have made this room or this house.
37:26We have to be grateful to all those who produce food, so that we can survive.
37:31Those who stitch our clothes, which we are wearing.
37:34So, gratitude.
37:36Let us begin with developing the sense of gratitude.
37:40And that gratitude should lead to a sense of moral responsibility.
37:45That if we are grateful to our people who are surrounding us in our office.
37:50It could be our boss, it could be our junior subordinate.
37:54We should be grateful to them also.
37:56Because if I am sitting on a chair, if I am sitting in any position, it's not because of me alone.
38:01It is because of so many invisible unknown people who are responsible for bringing me over here.
38:08So, then we have to be thankful and we have to express our gratitude and that will help in deepening and broadening our area of moral responsibility to others.
38:27And then we will feel that we have to take some action.
38:31Words are not enough.
38:33So, we should take some action.
38:35So, in our surroundings, if we start feeling that we have some responsibility to others, we will become much more genuine activists than many of those who choose activism as career.
38:55Activism is to go to politics or to grab power eventually.
39:02I think a good activist is also a good human being.
39:08And every good human being is an activist.
39:11Sir, how did you stop yourself from all these thoughts?
39:16Did you ever think that politics could be the next step?
39:20No, no.
39:21I understand because we have such leaders in India.
39:24We have examples like that.
39:25I am not saying that that is bad.
39:27But did something like this come in your mind as well ever?
39:30Yes, of course.
39:31I would say that none of us is free from politics.
39:36Either we are in active politics or in passive politics.
39:41I am in active politics.
39:43My active politics is not for the next election or for a position or power.
39:51My politics is for the next generations and all generations to come.
39:56I wanted to see that all generations.
39:59Because what is the purpose of politics?
40:01Politics' purpose is to serve the people, to do welfare for them, to ensure justice for them.
40:10That is the politics.
40:12That has lost the meaning unfortunately.
40:14Politics means power-hungerness, power-griving and so on.
40:18But my politics is simple that we have to work for children and their children and their children.
40:25So that when we leave this world, we will leave with a sense that whatever we have done, I have done, I have made a little bit better this world.
40:39Wonderful.
40:40While we come to the conclusion of this interview, I also wanted to ask, from your early childhood, from the days of you witnessing that cobbler's son, your first experience of inequality or injustice if I may say, to Nobel laureate and then all the way till now, has Kailash Satyarthi achieved what he wanted to?
41:02Not yet.
41:03Not yet.
41:04I never wanted to achieve anything for me.
41:07Even for others.
41:08So that is not achieved actually.
41:11And it is an ongoing struggle, ongoing fight.
41:18Some people agree, some people disagree, some people ignore, some people oppose.
41:24But the fight is on, struggle is on.
41:27Of course, the very first day of my schooling was eye-opener for me when I saw a cobbler boy my age sitting right outside the school gate.
41:41And I felt bad or disappointed and asked this to my teacher, my mother, other people.
41:51Everybody tried to convince me and told that it is not uncommon, the poor children have to help the families.
42:03But every day I was watching that child under the open sky, sometimes alone, sometimes with his father.
42:12So one day I gathered all my courage and stopped and asked it to both of them.
42:20The boy was shy.
42:22I was five and a half year old and the boy was my age, maybe six or so.
42:31So his father stood up with folded hands and he said, Babuji, I never thought about it.
42:41I never thought about it.
42:43My parents, grandparents and I started working since we were children and so is my son, he said.
42:51And then he took a pause and said, with utter miserability, hopelessness, helplessness, he said, Babuji, you guys are born to go to school, but we are born to go to work.
43:14And it was such a shock, it was such a painful answer of him, but it was a very, very challenging question for me for the rest of my life.
43:28And then I realized that something is wrong in the society.
43:35The divine cannot be so unjust.
43:37It is me who had created all these divisions and all these, you know, castes and communities and this and that.
43:46We are all one.
43:48So that sense of oneness went so deep in me, but also a sense of urgency to take action to do something.
44:03So that is still on and that is the reason I have expanded my horizon of interventions and actions and advocacy and launch this new satyarthi movement for global compassion.
44:24Great, sir. We wish you all the very best for this and for your future endeavors. Thank you very much for speaking to ETV Bharat. Best of luck, sir.
44:32My pleasure. Thank you.
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