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00:00Hello and welcome to episode 5 of the Traitors Uncloaked, the Visualize Companion podcast with me, Ed Gamble.
00:07You should know the drill by now. Spoiler alert, if you haven't watched the latest episode of the Traitors, go on to iPlayer and watch it immediately.
00:15Right, now that's over with, what on earth just happened?
00:19Has Fiona made one enormous and very public blunder, or can she turn this whole situation on Rachel?
00:24To help me break this all down, I'll be joined by passionate celebrity faithful Mark Bonner, iconic Series 3 faithful Fosier, plus freshly murdered faithful Maz and banished faithful Amanda will be joining me to reflect on their time in the castle.
00:43Right, let's take a moment to have a breath, guys.
00:46We need more than a moment.
00:48That was absolutely insane.
00:50That is one of the wildest things I've ever seen on Traitors, certainly, which is television, maybe.
00:55My first thoughts were, what's Rachel doing? When she started telling everybody, I thought, hmm, that's a bit soon.
01:02Right, okay, yeah.
01:03Maybe she should have cleared it with the other Traitors.
01:07Yeah, we're used to them going into the turret and having the chat.
01:10Yeah, yeah.
01:11So your initial worry was, oh, Rachel's being a bit bold here by discussing what Amanda told her,
01:16because then Fiona came in and absolutely torpedoed the whole situation.
01:19I know, I know, but what I was going to say was, I think that because Rachel had started feathering her faithful nest, as it were, you know,
01:27that seemed to really get Fiona's back up.
01:29Yeah, it really did.
01:31But, I mean, who would have thought that she, you know, she would have suddenly got, you know, all kind of ballsy and gone,
01:37right, kitchen, no!
01:39Unbelievable.
01:40Yeah.
01:41Rachel's like a war strategist at this point.
01:42She's moving all of her pawns.
01:44She's like Winston Churchill in terms of the war room.
01:47And then Fiona comes along as Attila the Hun.
01:50Throwing her grenade down.
01:51Yeah.
01:52Absolutely destroys the whole game.
01:54It's nuts.
01:55Absolutely nuts.
01:56So, I believe that Rachel is a traitor.
02:02Ooh!
02:06Are you saying this because you don't want to get murdered tonight and you're trying to, like, spice up a little bit?
02:11I believe Rachel is a traitor and I also believe that Amanda did not confide in Rachel.
02:21What's your take, Fozy?
02:22Do you think it was reckless what Fiona did?
02:24Yeah, I think Fiona's just went rogue.
02:26Yeah.
02:27There's clearly a power struggle going on here as well.
02:30Yeah.
02:30Because they're both strong characters and traitors.
02:33And in the past we've seen, even though they've been traitors, unite.
02:36Mm-hmm.
02:37But everybody seems to be playing their own game here.
02:40Well, it'd certainly cover up some of your more passionate moments, wouldn't it?
02:43Well, it would, yeah.
02:44My God.
02:45Oh, my God.
02:46It makes bashing the table seem like child's play, for God's sake.
02:50No one's going, oh, Mark's hit the table.
02:51Yeah.
02:52That seems a bit out of character.
02:53Look at Fiona!
02:57We should talk about the round table now because before all of this happened, we had an extremely tense round table.
03:04Today, you walked in and you said, I'm really tired, but I know who's more tired than me.
03:11You've just got to look at him.
03:13Rhys.
03:15What?
03:16Yes, you did.
03:17I'm just really sorry.
03:17I did not say that at all.
03:18Who else was in the room?
03:19Who else was in the room?
03:20Amanda, I'm just a bit confused because you were pointing the finger at me and then now you've just redirected to Sam and now you've pointed it at Rhys.
03:26That is an absolute lie and I've said it to people today.
03:28I did not say, look at Rhys.
03:31Oh, God.
03:31To be fair to Sam, that's not what he said.
03:34He said that you've got to look for the tiredest person because the traitor would have had to wait around until the end to kill the last person there.
03:40And at that moment, Rachel said, yeah, you've got to look at who's taking extra coffee today while she was holding a mug.
03:46Yes.
03:47Yes.
03:47You want to go, Rachel, look at what you're holding.
03:49Yeah, yeah, yeah.
03:50Yeah, you've really just got to look at who's necking coffee today.
03:53Sorry, I'm tired.
03:56It's always hiding in plain sight.
03:58Yeah, totally.
03:59It's good.
03:59You know, look at Alan and look at Jonathan, look at Kat falling asleep, you know.
04:04You were always very vocal at the round tables, Fosier, I think that's fair to say.
04:08Yeah.
04:08If you had multiple suspicions like Amanda clearly does, how would you go about airing those?
04:13Would you go all in on all of them like Amanda did?
04:15No.
04:16No, you have to balance it out.
04:18I think Amanda messed up at that point.
04:21Yeah.
04:22Yeah, you've got to be careful who you pick out and make sure you've got your allies as well.
04:28Yeah.
04:28And balance it out in how much talking you do round the table and when.
04:33Just picking those right moments.
04:35This all ended, of course, sorry for the flashbacks, Mark, with a very exciting chest of chance.
04:41We will dig into it more with Amanda when she's here.
04:44It's like buses, isn't it?
04:45You don't get any for four years and then suddenly there's two at once.
04:50Yeah, you started all this.
04:51At least Claudia knew where to find it now.
04:53I know.
04:54Yeah.
04:55I noticed she came back really quickly.
04:56Yeah, really quickly.
04:57I remember where I put that.
04:59Oh, yeah.
04:59Just chance.
05:01What was it like watching that and having those memories?
05:03Awful.
05:04It was awful.
05:05It was good.
05:06I was really feeling for Rhys, though.
05:07Yes.
05:07He's actually tough, hasn't he?
05:09Poor kid.
05:10And I don't understand where it's come from, really.
05:14It's just lots of little things have racked up, I think.
05:17And then also, I feel like his reaction to being on suspicion has been very interesting
05:21because I really feel for him.
05:23He's very quiet.
05:24He's very quiet, but then also with things like he took his own shield out.
05:29Yeah, he shouldn't have done that.
05:30He's like, well, everyone thinks it's me anyway.
05:32Yeah.
05:32So I just wanted to be in control of it.
05:34He let Fiona give away loads of skulls in the previous mission because he's like, we're
05:38not getting it and everyone thinks it's me anyway.
05:40Only somebody who's confident would do that and they would suspect, oh, he's at a trade
05:43that we're doing that.
05:44Or he feels defeated.
05:45Or just defeated.
05:45He did look deflated in that last episode.
05:49Obviously, him recounting the face-to-face murder over breakfast.
05:53A lot of people were picking him up on that.
05:55What I like about this series, actually, is people are picking up on it straight away
05:59and they're not waiting until they're in the snooker room with somebody else saying,
06:03did you see that?
06:04Did you notice that?
06:04They're going, what do you mean by that?
06:07Which is quite good.
06:08At breakfast, I think any given moment when they're in the kitchen, and I've noticed
06:13they're not going into small groups.
06:15They're not little cliques either.
06:17There might be 10 of them in the room and they're just saying it out loud.
06:20They're just throwing all their theories out, which is good because it means they're
06:24collectively coming up with the theory.
06:25Yeah.
06:26It's almost time to bring in banished Amanda and murdered Maz.
06:29But before we do, here's the moment where they met immediately after leaving the game
06:33up in Scotland.
06:34And remember, Maz already knows who the traitors are after the face-to-face murder, but Amanda
06:39is still in the dark.
06:44Oh my God.
06:46Did you expect me?
06:47No.
06:48I really want to know what happened, what the reaction was.
06:57Everyone was sad.
06:58Were they?
06:59Yeah.
07:00Because you're a lovely guy.
07:01You're just fantastic.
07:03So I'm going to tell you my secret.
07:05So my secret is that I was a senior police officer in the Metropolitan Police.
07:11Well, Amanda, I've also got a secret for you.
07:15Yeah?
07:16I am a retired police officer.
07:19No way!
07:23That's fantastic!
07:25Are you?
07:27Yeah, you are.
07:27Of course you are.
07:28I knew that there was more to you.
07:32You know, now that you've told me, it makes absolute sense.
07:36I didn't even think about what you did.
07:39I just thought, I really like this guy, you know?
07:42So Amanda, obviously the next question would be, what are your thoughts?
07:47Who the traitors are?
07:48What suspicions you had?
07:50I can't go there because I don't know.
07:54I don't know anyone.
07:56I don't know who anyone is.
07:57But you must have had a feeling or an inkling.
07:59Jade was on my radar.
08:00Okay.
08:01But for no reason.
08:03She was the first person I saw.
08:05Yeah, yeah, yeah.
08:06You know?
08:07Yeah.
08:07It could have been anyone sat there, you know?
08:09She did a couple of odd things.
08:11But then when you get to know the person, she seems quite shy.
08:17Yeah, quite lovely.
08:18Yeah.
08:19Yeah.
08:19You must be absolutely desperate to find out.
08:22Desperate.
08:23Who the traitors are.
08:24I want to see how good they are.
08:27So.
08:28Oh my God.
08:30I'm going to give you that.
08:31Oh my God.
08:32This is so exciting.
08:33Oh.
08:41Stephen.
08:43Oh.
08:45I'm not surprised.
08:47Shall I do the next one?
08:48Yeah.
08:48Yeah.
08:49Next one.
08:53The Little Minx.
08:57Fiona.
08:59The Little Minx.
09:01Love that woman.
09:03Absolutely brilliant.
09:04Oh my God.
09:04Let's have a look at the last one.
09:05Oh my God.
09:11Oh my God.
09:12No.
09:16Oh my God.
09:19No way.
09:24Rachel.
09:26Well.
09:27Your best mate.
09:28Brilliant.
09:28All I can say is.
09:30I was saying earlier.
09:31I hope she wins.
09:33Do I heck.
09:36And Maz and Amanda are with us now.
09:40Welcome.
09:41Welcome to both of you.
09:42Thank you, Sam.
09:42Amanda, let's talk about your reactions to who the traitors are.
09:46Stephen first.
09:47You didn't seem massively surprised that Stephen's a traitor.
09:50It's one thing knowing that you, well, you know, having a strong suspicion that someone
09:56is a traitor.
09:56It's another thing trying to convince everybody else.
09:58Of course.
09:59Yeah.
09:59And that's the key to the game.
10:01If you put someone's name out there, one, you're putting your name and you're putting
10:06your reputation on the chopping block, you know, if they're playing a good game.
10:10And he did play a good game, but he gave himself away a little bit.
10:13What was it about Stephen that gave himself away?
10:15He just looked so nervous.
10:17Yeah.
10:17Yeah.
10:17He was just nervous.
10:18And, you know, he went so red.
10:23I think the pressure was getting to him at that point, wasn't it?
10:26I think he started overcompensating for, because the way he was before, he was, he's a very
10:35confident guy.
10:36Yeah.
10:36You know, he dresses smart.
10:38Yeah.
10:38I looked at him and I thought, what a fit guy.
10:41Yeah.
10:41You know, you know what I mean.
10:45Yeah.
10:46Yeah, we know, okay.
10:47You know what I mean.
10:48Really likeable, really a big character.
10:53And he was doing really well in the sense that having that pressure of being a traitor and
10:59then keeping all these ties and relationships.
11:01He's got low level kind of attention though.
11:04I mean, he's getting two or three votes every round table up till now.
11:08But, you know, I think after the explosion in the kitchen, I think he'll be all right for
11:12a while.
11:12I think if you just, he can sort of stand back a little bit.
11:15Maz, you didn't seem surprised at all when you saw that he was a traitor.
11:18When you're sat in that cage, you were like, yeah.
11:20Yeah.
11:20It's definitely him.
11:21I just had this feeling about him and I thought, do you know what?
11:25This guy's really confident, really comfortable.
11:28But then he tried to throw me under the bus with the family tree thing.
11:34Yes.
11:34And I thought, hang on a minute, my name's not been mentioned up to now.
11:39But then he's come up with this theory that maybe I was the last one to have been there
11:45in the hallway.
11:46But then he even admitted that he went five minutes after you.
11:49Yeah.
11:49But no one else picked up on that.
11:50But nobody picked it up.
11:52And I thought, why has he done that?
11:56Maz, when you found out who the traitors are in the face-to-face murder, you obviously
11:59said, Stephen, I thought it might be you.
12:02But you said to, was it to both Fiona and Rachel, you've let me down?
12:07Yeah.
12:07Which I thought was great.
12:08Yeah, I was really disappointed.
12:12I mean, these were supposed to be my friends.
12:16I mean, Rachel told me that she loved me.
12:20Yeah.
12:21She told me that she knew that I was 100% a faithful.
12:27Well, she did.
12:28Yeah.
12:28She absolutely knew all the faithfuls were.
12:30Yeah.
12:31Yeah.
12:31And Fiona, I mean, I was completely shocked.
12:36As the secret traitor, Fiona had put you on the shortlist twice.
12:39Absolutely.
12:42How does it feel seeing all that back?
12:43I really don't understand that woman.
12:48Fosia, you were, of course, on the receiving end of a face-to-face murder.
12:52How did it feel watching Maz go through the same thing?
12:54Oh, I did feel for you, Maz.
12:56Did you?
12:56I did, yeah.
12:57Well, but it's an epic moment.
12:59It is.
13:00Take it with pride that, you know, you got to see the traitors face-to-face.
13:04Yeah.
13:05Amanda, I loved your reaction to Fiona.
13:08Can you just talk us through your finding out she was a traitor, how you reacted to that?
13:12She's just like a ball of energy, you know?
13:15She's cheeky.
13:16Cheeky minx.
13:17Naughty but nice.
13:18Naughty but nice, yeah.
13:20Also, Ed was saying earlier on, she's got this brilliant thing of kind of going, oh, I don't quite understand.
13:26What did he say?
13:27I don't, you know, this kind of like a bit ditzy and confused about stuff.
13:32Brilliant.
13:32But actually she's, you know, plunging the knife into the hilt.
13:37Absolutely brilliant.
13:38What about Rachel?
13:39The moment in that clip there where you find out it's Rachel and you can see yourself process all of that and go, I told her that I'm a former detective.
13:48I chose the traitor.
13:49I know, I know.
13:50In a split second, my head went, you're going to look really stupid.
13:55Oh my God.
13:56She's my best friend.
13:57She was my best friend in the castle.
13:59And then I thought, how can I get out of this?
14:01Well, she's brilliant.
14:02She fooled me.
14:03What kind of possessed you to want to even share that with her though at that stage?
14:07So it all started when the nine people got told they were up for murder.
14:13Yeah.
14:13And I thought my odds are just going down and down and down.
14:17And to be honest, every day I was thinking, why am I not being murdered?
14:21Okay.
14:21Because I would murder me.
14:23Definitely.
14:24And I just wanted to sort of blurt it out.
14:27And I thought you could have blurted a theory out but not shared your job title.
14:31Yeah.
14:32Yeah.
14:35But I wanted to tell Rachel.
14:38And I just thought she could, she can use it for good or evil.
14:41Can I just ask about your final round table, about the honing in on Jade, but then turning
14:46to Sam and then Rhys.
14:48It just seemed to incriminate you even further.
14:51I really felt for you then because it was like, oh no.
14:54So the dominoes were just falling.
14:57I could feel, I could feel them falling.
14:59So it all sounded a bit odd.
15:01And watching it, yeah, I mean, it just looks ridiculous.
15:09I would deserve to be banished.
15:12Okay.
15:13Totally.
15:13Totally.
15:14Because I just confuse the hell out of everybody.
15:16Yeah.
15:16But I was, you know, a little, it was a little bit rabbit in the headlights, but it was also,
15:22I've got all this information in my head that I want to get out to help.
15:27Yeah.
15:27Because, I think I said it a few times, I'm just, I'm here to help.
15:32But no one believed that, did they?
15:33No, no.
15:34I got called an influencer.
15:36Which is one of the worst things you can be called.
15:38Well, yeah, that's true.
15:40That's true.
15:40So obviously the round table ended in a chest of chance.
15:44The second time in Traders UK history this has happened.
15:48We're of course sat with the other, the other casualty.
15:51I know.
15:52For chest of chance.
15:53Amanda, talk us through how you're feeling in the chest of chance moment.
15:57And I thought, I've got 50, I've got 50-50, you know.
16:01But I, I resigned myself to the fact that I might go.
16:05So I was gearing myself up for, you're banished.
16:08I definitely, definitely was nervous.
16:12And I think Rhys was doing the same thing.
16:13He'd almost given up as well.
16:15And it was weird from my perspective seeing that because Rhys was getting so much flack
16:20that he'd got to a stage where he was like...
16:23Deflated and...
16:24Yeah.
16:25Just, just, just give it to me.
16:27It's all right.
16:27You know, I can...
16:29And then on the other hand, there was you that were probably feeling the same or if not
16:35a bit more and sensing Rhys's frustrations.
16:40I just wanted to run round and give him a hug.
16:42Yeah.
16:43Now, before there's a deadlock, obviously there's a chance to plead for survival.
16:46You'd get to say something.
16:48Mark, obviously you had to go through all of that.
16:50Oh, yes.
16:50I thought you were going to ask me to do it.
16:52Please do it now.
16:52If you wish, if you wish to continue being on this show, you must plead your case.
16:57I think I'm a really valuable member of the panel.
17:00And I try my best.
17:02I give a lot.
17:02What's it like having to do that?
17:07And what was it like watching Amanda and Rhys have to do that?
17:10To be honest, that whole round table, starting with Alan going off on one about me, you know
17:17when you get white noise in your brain and you can't, it was just like a kind of fight
17:21or flight, I suppose, is what it was.
17:23So you're kind of totally thinking on your wits.
17:27How can you think I'm a traitor?
17:29How can you think, you know, that's all that was going through my head.
17:32I'm like, more of my faith, you know.
17:34So that's why I got as, you know, animated as I did.
17:38But I mean, I guess you're far more used to dealing with stressful situations than I
17:45probably am.
17:46I just, I think I had a bit of an out-of-body experience.
17:49Yeah.
17:50I just thought, oh, I'm done.
17:53I'm done.
17:54If I was in that situation and they said, plead for your life at this point, I'd throw my
18:00toys out of my pram.
18:00You're like, look, you've all voted for me.
18:03You don't even deserve me.
18:06I'm not sure that would have worked.
18:09I'm not sure, Ed.
18:11I don't know.
18:12After the round table, things got very interesting, as I'm sure you've both seen by this point.
18:18Rachel revealed the information that you gave her to the group.
18:21Obviously, what she didn't realise was what was going to happen immediately afterwards
18:26with Fiona.
18:27Oh, my Lord.
18:29I mean, I don't even, I still can't wrap my head around what Fiona did.
18:35So Fiona got really angry with Rachel.
18:36Yeah.
18:37Decided that she was lying.
18:38Yeah.
18:39She was shocked that you hadn't told her.
18:41Yeah.
18:42Or the fact that her family are involved in the police as well.
18:46Yeah.
18:46Did she share that with you?
18:47She did.
18:48Yeah.
18:48She did, actually.
18:49But I think I was so engrossed in not being a police officer that it just, there's a lot
18:55of moments, Fosia.
18:56Do you have those moments where you think, oh, yeah, I've got this, I've got this, I've got
19:00this.
19:00These two, this is going to come to, oh, I've forgotten.
19:03Yeah.
19:03And it just goes and you just forget or, you know, you go onto something else because
19:07you're in fight or flight mode quite a bit, aren't you?
19:10Yeah.
19:10I don't think any of us could have predicted Fiona's next move.
19:13Maz, what do we think of Fiona's reaction and do we think it's a good idea?
19:18For the show, I think it's a fantastic idea.
19:20Yeah, for the show, yeah, yeah, yeah.
19:21For the show.
19:22We all agree with that.
19:23We've never seen anything like it.
19:24Do you know, I think she took it personally.
19:29Oh, yeah.
19:30I think she's thought, how dare Amanda tell Rachel and not me?
19:39Yeah.
19:40Because I think under all that show, I think she has or she wants that control.
19:46Mm-hmm.
19:46Yeah.
19:47We were saying that.
19:48And I think you letting Rachel know took some control away from her.
19:56Yes.
19:56And I think she really took offence to that and that's why we see, because she's completely,
20:02she's marching, isn't she?
20:04Yeah.
20:05Maz, if you'd been in the kitchen when Fiona came in, what would your reaction have been?
20:08I would have loved it.
20:10I would have absolutely loved it because I wouldn't have expected that of Fiona.
20:15Yeah.
20:15Didn't Rachel deal with it so well?
20:17Oh, yeah.
20:18I think you have done this.
20:20You don't think that she spoke to me?
20:23No, no, no, I don't.
20:24I don't.
20:25I think you have done this for your own benefit.
20:28So you don't think that she sat me in there and told...
20:33Not for one minute.
20:34Okay, well then, I'm not continuing this conversation.
20:37She was like, what?
20:39What are you doing?
20:40You could see her little face going, what are you doing?
20:44You're sabotaging my, you know, my time and yours.
20:47But that's such a natural reaction.
20:48Even if she was faithful, that would be the natural reaction.
20:50I think Stephen's the one who could have worked on his reaction a little bit better
20:54because he was like, gags and then left the room.
20:57Yeah.
20:58He went, okay, I've got to get out of here.
21:00Oh, but Amanda, you know like gangsters have a code.
21:02Yeah.
21:05Yeah, I know about that code.
21:07You'd expect the traitors to have a little bit of loyalty and have a bit of a code.
21:12I mean, you know what?
21:13Go for it when there's five of you left.
21:15Yeah.
21:15But not at this stage.
21:17Mark, what about you?
21:18If you'd been in the kitchen when Fiona stormed in, how would you have reacted?
21:21Oh, well, exactly the same as Mars.
21:23I would have absolutely lapped it up.
21:25Yeah.
21:26I mean, in that kind of like bum squeak way.
21:29Yeah.
21:30You're just like, oh my God, this is going off and I'm actually here.
21:33Is there any, you know, all the snacks in the middle?
21:36Oh, is there any popcorn that you could just grab?
21:39Yeah, exactly.
21:40Yeah, yeah.
21:41Just sit back and watch it unfold.
21:43Oh, it's great.
21:44Great.
21:44I just, it's a shame that they left it so late in the day because you've got to go home.
21:49Yeah.
21:50But if, you know, if you'd started that in the morning, it could have raged all day.
21:53It would have been brilliant.
21:54Well, the faithful go home.
21:56They're straight into the turret.
21:57Well, they're straight into the turret.
21:58What do we think is going to happen in this turret?
22:00Because we've seen them take the hoods back and they're obviously...
22:02A fight?
22:03A full physical fight.
22:05I mean, it's like cloaks off.
22:07I said, watch that while it's going to get filled up in a minute.
22:12Is there any possibility that they can come back from this?
22:16No.
22:17Is there?
22:17I think it feels like maybe Rachel would not be mega angry at Fiona.
22:22She would just be a bit baffled.
22:23Yeah.
22:24So I think there may be some sort of getting to the bottom of why this has happened.
22:27Yeah.
22:28It doesn't feel like they can come back from it and be a United Traitor team, does it?
22:31No.
22:31Well, the thing is, though, they've got to, because they're both traitors, they've got
22:35to face each other in the turret now.
22:37Yeah.
22:37Have a conversation about it.
22:39But the next day, they've got to seemingly, as faithful, have another conversation, or
22:46you know, be with everybody else.
22:48Interesting.
22:48So there's going to be two levels of, you know, playing the field.
22:53Because now they can't have a discussion in the turret and decide they're going to try
22:57and rein it in and go, right, we need to be a team.
22:59The next morning, what's Fiona going to do?
23:00Go, she's not a traitor, actually, I've decided.
23:02Yeah.
23:03But the other thing is, it raises suspicion slightly on Rachel where she hasn't had that
23:09attention at all.
23:11It's the attention, isn't it?
23:12Isn't it?
23:12Yeah.
23:12And then hopefully Stephen withdraws from the background a little bit.
23:15He had so much heat on him and now he can just let that play out.
23:17Perfect for him, isn't it, now?
23:18Yeah.
23:19Thank the Lord.
23:21You know, he can stop sweating now, can't he?
23:25Well, we're out of time here on BBC One, but we'll keep chatting over on BBC Sounds.
23:30I'm going to get into the minds of Maz and Amanda as if they were traitors.
23:33Mark and Fosier will be sharing what their post-traitors life has been like, and we'll
23:37dig some more into that player WhatsApp group.
23:39It's all in your bonus episode of Uncloaked, which you can hear right now.
23:43Just scan the QR code on the screen or search for us in the BBC Sounds app.
23:46I'll be back tomorrow night with guests including celebrity faithful Charlotte Church to see
23:51what the fallout is following Fiona and Rachel's revelations, and I cannot wait.
23:56Big thanks to Mark, Fosier, Amanda and Maz for joining in the fun.
23:59I've been Ed Gamble.
24:00Stay faithful.
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