Speaking with FRANCE 24's Sharon Gaffney, Theo Padnos, a journalist who was captured and held for nearly two years in a series of prisons run by Jabhat al-Nusra, the Syrian branch of al Qaeda, says that the current Syrian leadership is like "a fox in the henhouse" and that Syrian President Ahmed al-Sharaa fostered a "genocidal culture" against minorities, pursuing indiscriminate killings during his years leading jihadist groups.
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00:00This is Apropos. He ushered in big changes which have reshaped the fractured nation's foreign ties.
00:09Exactly a year on from the fall of Bashar al-Assad, the Syrian president is vowing to usher in a new era of justice and coexistence as tens of thousands celebrate the anniversary.
00:20Well, despite the jubilant atmosphere in Damascus, tensions continue to simmer. The transition has been shaken by sectarian massacres in the Alawite coastal heartland and deadly clashes in the Druze-majority Sweda in the south, as Liza Herbert explains.
00:36It's been one year since Ahmed al-Sharah led a lightning offensive to topple Bashar al-Assad, and he is still vowing to rebuild Syria as the country's new president and promising accountability for those who committed crimes under the former regime.
00:54We reaffirm our commitment to the principle of transitional justice to ensure that those who have violated the law and committed crimes against the Syrian people are brought to justice, while preserving the rights of victims and upholding justice.
01:09The anniversary was marked with celebrations throughout Syria. In Damascus, tens of thousands of people gathered, holding their Syrian flags high and celebrating jubilantly.
01:21One year ago, the fall of Bashar al-Assad was the most important day in the life of all Syrians, I believe.
01:31We are all happy. There is an atmosphere truly full of emotion, full of joy.
01:38However, the first year has not been all smooth sailing. There have been security concerns and post-conflict revenge killings.
01:47The cost of living is rising, the economy remains in crisis, and many of the more than one million Syrian refugees who have returned home are finding it harder than anticipated.
01:59At the beginning, I was happy to return. But now, I regret my decision because I can't find a job.
02:05The 14-year civil war also divided Syrians across religious, sectarian and ethnic lines, and many still want accountability for those killed during the Assad regime.
02:17Al-Shara has called for unity and promised to uphold justice, but distrust still runs deep.
02:24Undoing decades of suffering and rebuilding Syria is likely to require years of building trust and leaning on international support.
02:33Well, for more on the situation in Syria, we're joined by Theo Padnos, an American journalist who was captured and held for nearly two years in a series of prisons run by Syrian rebel groups with ties at the time to al-Qaeda.
02:49Thanks so much, Theo, for being with us on the programme.
02:52Firstly, tell us about your own experience. Why were you originally in Syria? When were you captured and why?
02:59Well, I first went into Syria in October of 2012. I was a freelance reporter and I was trying to write essays that would illuminate the situation in Syria. So that's what I was doing there.
03:16And when were you actually captured and what were the circumstances surrounding that, Theo, if you don't mind telling us a little bit more about that?
03:24No, I'm happy to tell you. In October of 2012, as I say, I met three young men in Syrians in Antakya, Turkey, who told me that they were freelance reporters, like me, and that they would be happy to take me on a little tour of Aleppo and Idlib.
03:41And as soon as we crossed the border, they announced that they were members of the al-Qaeda organization, which they really weren't.
03:48And I escaped from these. They took me into custody. There was some initial violence, but it wasn't too bad.
03:56I escaped from these young men and then I went to the Free Syrian Army.
03:59Presumably, I presumed they were the people that were like friendly to us, Westerner journalists.
04:04But really, they weren't. They called up Mohamed Adnani, who was responsible for the attacks in Paris in November of 2015, at the Batte Clause de France and all of that.
04:16So this character, Adnani, came. He was my first interrogator.
04:20And after that, there followed two years of, you know, it was detention under difficult circumstances, you could say.
04:27And as you say, you came into contact with some senior jihadist leaders during that time.
04:34Did you ever come across the current Syrian president at all?
04:39He was the warden of the little jail that I was detained in for the first six months.
04:44So I was told that he was in the room with me, but I was in a blindfold.
04:48So, no, I didn't see him, but I think I have a thorough understanding of the culture that he created along with Mohamed Adnani.
04:57This is a, it's like a genocidal culture.
05:00I mean, they are trying, at the time, they were trying to kill the minorities.
05:04And they were killing them indiscriminately, like regardless of what they had done in their lives.
05:09It was like, are you a member of that minority?
05:11Okay, then you are going to be killed.
05:12And they were killed, those people.
05:14So that was the way it was in 2012 to 2014.
05:19And clearly, he's not wanting to kill all the minorities now.
05:22But I'm not so concerned with like his own personal attitude.
05:25It's like the thousands and thousands of people that grew up under him and that were formed and shaped, as all of the people in his prisons were.
05:35You know, it's the psychology that reigns inside a jihadist movement that one wants to be, that one ought to be worried about.
05:40And how does it feel then when you see the president, a former jihadist, as you say, being welcomed back onto the global stage?
05:48He's made 21 international trips to 13 countries so far this year.
05:54Most notably, we saw him, of course, with Donald Trump at the White House not so long ago.
05:58Look, I want Syria to be welcomed into the family of nations.
06:04It's the best possible thing for the people of Syria.
06:06They need opportunities.
06:07They need economic development.
06:09We should open our universities to them.
06:11And in the best of all possible worlds, we would have some technocrat in charge.
06:16And he would be, you know, kind of ecumenical and open and tolerate all religions.
06:22And in this case, it's like the fox is guarding the hen house.
06:26He says, OK, I'm not going to eat the chickens.
06:28But he and his people have already eaten a bunch of chickens.
06:31And I don't think they're being frank with the world about what they have done.
06:35It's like nobody trusts them.
06:37None of the minorities trust them.
06:39There's happiness in the streets among the majority.
06:42But imagine being in a position where you have to tell the minorities, hey, listen, we know that those people over there, they killed your family last week.
06:49But they're promising to be good this week.
06:51So can you get along with them?
06:53And they're saying, we're not ready to get along with them.
06:55We're frightened.
06:56We're alarmed.
06:57And they should be because every week some shrine or business is burned to the ground or people are disappearing.
07:03And it's like it's a frightening situation for the minorities in Syria.
07:07And it's a joyous situation for everybody else.
07:09Yeah, because the persecution of members of the Alawite sector continues.
07:13What do you think the future holds for minorities?
07:16We're hearing today calls for people to come together to try to rebuild the country.
07:21But is everybody included in that call, do you think?
07:24I am encouraging my Alawite friends to leave as soon as possible.
07:29It's just like the situation of the Jews in 1933 in Europe.
07:34It's like they don't know.
07:36You know, nobody knows.
07:37There's a great deal of uncertainty concerning the future.
07:40And if we were to give advice to Jewish, if we were like living back then and we could give advice to our Jewish relatives, grandparents, we would say, leave, get out, get out, get out.
07:50So having like, you know, spent two years among the people that are persecuting these minorities, I know their psychology.
07:58And I sincerely believe that the safest, wisest thing is just to escape with whatever they have on their back and leave.
08:06I know that that's not practical.
08:08It's like they don't have the money.
08:09And then where do they go?
08:10And maybe it's safer at home.
08:12But personally, you know, the people I care about most, of course, I'm saying, listen, just save your skin is what I'm telling them.
08:18But, you know, maybe that's not the best advice.
08:20Maybe things will turn out OK.
08:21It's just they're taking their lives in their hands with every day that they stay there and and every day some new person disappears.
08:29And Theo, how did you yourself manage to maintain hope when you were in captivity?
08:33It was quite a long time and your release came just a week before we all heard about the horrific beheading of James Foley by Islamic State.
08:43So how did you actually get through that time?
08:46And, you know, are there lessons that can be learned from people like you who have that direct experience with the one time jihadists and now leaders of the country?
08:58I would say you have to keep on talking.
09:00I mean, it's like they're interesting.
09:02They're interested people.
09:04They want to discuss and learn about the world.
09:06And oftentimes they don't know very much about the world.
09:08But as far as like my own personal qualities or characteristics, they were of no help to me.
09:14I completely gave up, like psychologically, they defeated me.
09:18And I was in their hands emotionally, physically, spiritually, everything.
09:22And the only reason I survived was because they didn't kill me.
09:25It has nothing to do with my, you know, personal fortitude or strength or anything like that.
09:29No, it was just because Jolani and his friends decided or Jolani, the new president, Al-Shara, decided, listen, we could maybe get some money for that guy.
09:37So let's not kill him.
09:39It's the only reason why I'm alive.
09:40And I'm grateful that he didn't kill me, but I know I can't attribute my survival to any special characteristics.
09:47And everybody is going to have to deal with the difficulty of living within fundamentalist, like a very kind of intolerant version of Islam that is practiced by, let's just say, the justice minister who came to visit us and proceeded to execute all of the people that were in the cell with me.
10:07It's like the people who are in charge now are, it's a dangerous crew.
10:12They're quite unpredictable.
10:14And they're not all responsible to Al-Shara.
10:17It's like when you ask them, who do you take your orders from?
10:19They go, from God.
10:20I don't care what Al-Shara says.
10:22So then you have to, you know, get into the details of the Quran.
10:26Under what circumstances are you entitled to execute people that they want to execute?
10:31And they usually have the final word on that.
10:34That's why so many of my fellow prisoners were killed.
10:36And how then do the current authorities, given their history, ensure that justice is served going forward and that the country can, in fact, come together and that minorities will no longer have to fear what might become of them?
10:51I mean, they need somebody that has a greater capacity to inspire trust and not a record of killing the minorities.
11:03This is not the right character to bring the nation together.
11:06Anybody who has friends in Syria among the minorities is getting phone calls right now saying anybody but them.
11:11You know, we didn't like Bashar al-Assad, all my friends said.
11:14We didn't like him.
11:15We didn't like him.
11:16But not these people, please, not these people.
11:18That's what the, you know, that's what anybody, I'm certain of it, who has friends in Syria right now is getting calls saying this.
11:26Like, not those people.
11:27But those are the people that we armed.
11:29It's like we, the U.S. government, we gave them upwards of $500 million in weaponry.
11:35So it should be no surprise that, in the end, they are the ones who are in power.
11:40Theo, we'll have to leave it there for now.
11:41We do appreciate your time on the program, though.
11:44Thanks for joining us.
11:45That is Theo Padnos, an American journalist and a former prisoner in Syria.
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