- 20 hours ago
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00:00This is the bit that you don't see because you're filming me at the angle. I'm standing there and I can see him
00:21and he just comes out of his door and he's just coming towards me and he's just staring at me
00:25and I was just looking straight down at him thinking, this is the man that murdered my mother.
00:33Barbara or Christopher?
00:34Yes.
00:35And I remember Glenn.
00:36Yes.
00:37I'm Pete.
00:38I'm Pete.
00:38Yes, Pete.
00:40Nice to meet you.
00:41Beza, Pete, we winged the whole thing and it worked somehow.
01:02We pulled off one of the biggest undercover operations of the century
01:05and we managed to get the one thing to prove our case, photographs of the old man.
01:20We gave the British police our evidence package and they handed it over to the Australian Federal
01:26Police and they came back saying, he's Derek Crowther and he's got a birth certificate to prove it.
01:32Now, I know it's quite easy to get a fake birth certificate.
01:36They also said he's too short.
01:38That's just bullshit.
01:41Barbara or Christopher?
01:43And I remember Glenn's dream.
01:44The whole height thing is nonsense.
01:46I've looked into this.
01:48You can easily lose up to four inches when you're old.
01:53Neil sent off the photos to facial recognition.
01:57Huh.
01:58A team of people who work using hand and eye analysis.
02:03So they measure distances on the human face and compare them between the two photos.
02:09Nasal morphology.
02:11Lord Lucan has a narrow nasal bridge.
02:14Male A has a wide nasal bridge.
02:18In layman's terms, his nose was too flared.
02:21His ears stuck out too much.
02:23Not the same man.
02:24They're wrong.
02:27Anybody can get plastic surgery.
02:30Nose and ears.
02:31That's easy to do, isn't it?
02:32Waste of time.
02:33Those are posh words.
02:35But these people do facial recognition for the police.
02:39Well, that's a worry, isn't it?
02:40Neil had had knockbacks on this before, but he's got this conviction, like titanium, and it runs through him.
02:55It seems that there's been some sort of skin or some plastic surgery inserted in the ear, where the ear meets the head.
03:04It's obviously made them flared.
03:07You can see scarring.
03:08I mean, it's terribly done.
03:11I mean, look at the mess of it.
03:12I completely underestimated him when I met him.
03:15If he were going to go on the run, you wouldn't go looking the same as what you did in 1974, would you?
03:20I put him into the little box of a builder from Hampshire, who I can not use, but certainly work with to help my journalistic investigations.
03:32What I never realized would happen was that he was canny enough, clever enough, to drive forward far further than I could ever have gone.
03:40This is Lucan's plastic surgeon report when he had the speedboat accident, 1963.
03:47His left nostril, there's a nick, and you can see there, the nick in exactly the same place.
03:58I started this off 17 years ago, wanting to do what was right for Sandra.
04:11From what I know about my mother, she'd had a really troubled early life.
04:20Shot pregnant as a teenager, checked herself into a mental hospital.
04:24I think she was lost.
04:28Somebody needs to stand up for her.
04:32The old man in Australia.
04:34It was time for me to confront him as me.
04:38Sandra Rivet's son.
04:39So I fixed it with the carer.
05:00We're going to speak on a WhatsApp call.
05:03Just me and the old man, and no one else.
05:07Let's see what we can do.
05:09I've got this far.
05:13I was after a confession.
05:15Let's do this.
05:22Hi, Chris.
05:23How are you?
05:26I'm well, thank you.
05:29Good, good.
05:30I'll have to be.
05:31Um, Beza Dougal left me an envelope after he died.
05:37Um, basically saying that, um, I had to protect you because he, he, he knows your real identity.
05:51Um, okay, so, um, basically that now means that I know who you really are.
06:05Um, you know what I'm trying to say, don't you?
06:10Yes.
06:11Okay.
06:11Because, I mean, obviously, you, you've basically been on the run for 44 years, haven't you?
06:19Well, I mean, if you, you could say that.
06:23Yes.
06:23You want to look for it like that.
06:27Um.
06:27On the run for 44 years.
06:33Could, could you just explain to me, there was a lady that had to have karma repaid, wasn't there?
06:43Back a few years ago, when you left London?
06:48Well, yes, I, uh...
06:49I'd heard a lot of karma from Stephen.
06:54He's the man in Australia who'd written to me.
06:57He said, I want to confess to you, like, I called Sandra.
07:00She had karma to repay her.
07:01It's her own fault.
07:02So, I thought I'd throw the word karma in to try and reel him in.
07:07This lady also knew Beza Dougal.
07:10But because you were there for Beza Dougal, you helped him, I would also like to help you.
07:20That is why, um, I know that you're Lord Lucan.
07:26Um, that is why I don't want to do anything about it.
07:32Well, there actually isn't much you can do about it.
07:38Oh.
07:38No, it's, it's all, it's all in the hands of the divine.
07:51Your real name is Richard John Dinger, isn't it?
07:56Oh.
07:57Well, yeah, I mean, uh, um...
08:01Chris.
08:01Yeah, cousin.
08:02No, but you might, you might as well just tell the truth,
08:06because I honestly think you need to lift the weight off of your shoulders, don't you?
08:11Well, on my, um...
08:15Yes.
08:18It's advertised as...
08:20Derek Crowther.
08:23He says advertised.
08:25He's reading of the birth certificate.
08:29I can see him looking across to the left to read it.
08:32He had to look.
08:32I'm thinking, oh, you can't hide behind Derek Crowther for much longer.
08:39It's all bullshit.
08:41I now need to use the kill word.
08:44The woman that you killed, could you explain to me why she needed karma to be repaid?
08:50It's like, when somebody tries to stop you from helping out or from, you know, it's, it's, it's a very bit destructive.
09:03She came from a background.
09:05Yes.
09:05That was very horrendous.
09:07Right.
09:09She was in a great deal of pain and stress.
09:12Right.
09:13You're saying that Sandra Rivett was also a troubled being?
09:18Well, yes.
09:19Sandra Rivett was a disturbed person.
09:22So he's saying he knows her then.
09:24He's very relaxed about it all, isn't he?
09:27I just had to, to sleep, walk away from me.
09:31But you did kill her, though, didn't you?
09:35Well, I have no memory of killing anybody, of terminating anybody's life.
09:42I've been walking away from them.
09:45And, I mean, it's all dead.
09:50You're losing it a bit.
09:51You're losing it.
09:52And, and, um, I'll, um, but you are Lord Lucan, aren't you?
09:57I don't know where that comes from.
10:00But you know who he is, don't you?
10:03No, I don't.
10:05He's backpedaling here.
10:06Should I tell you who I really am?
10:09I'm Sandra Rivett's son.
10:13Oh.
10:15Look, now, when you talk about Sandra Rivett, it doesn't mean anything to me.
10:20But just a minute ago, you said that she was a disturbed woman, so you must have known her.
10:27Yeah, exactly.
10:28Just tell me the truth, Chris.
10:31I believe you murdered her.
10:33No, I, I, I don't remember.
10:36As far as I know, I've never taken the land with anyone.
10:41It is so nearly a complete confession, but it's not.
10:51That's the, I mean, I, I know you want it to be.
10:54Yeah, but then he realises that he started to say too much.
10:57It's a, almost full confession, followed by a ramblings of a confused old man saying,
11:04what are you talking about?
11:06Well, let, let's ring off.
11:07Okay.
11:11We need something else.
11:14At this precise moment, I don't know what that is.
11:25Lucan.
11:27Go on, tuck in, Lucan.
11:35The breaks come at the times you least expect them.
11:39While I was on holiday, I'd been reading a book about the Salisbury poisonings.
11:45The two Russian agents who'd poisoned these scribbles had been caught on CCTV.
11:52A new technology, AI deep face recognition,
11:55had managed to match their images on CCTV with online images of them at a military academy.
12:03The person who'd designed the artificial intelligence software was an academic at Bradford University,
12:10Professor Hassan Newgail.
12:12So, I told Neil about it.
12:15I sent him a nice email.
12:17Could you help me?
12:19I've got a series of pictures.
12:21Some from the old man in Australia,
12:23and some of Lord Lucan from Google Images.
12:28Did you tell him who you thought it was?
12:30I told him nothing.
12:31The creation of the algorithm has taken us years, millions of human facial images.
12:42The algorithm actually learns all the intricate details about the face.
12:46If you do your plastic surgery on your nose, for example,
12:49you know, it's not just looking at the nose,
12:52it's actually looking at all the other parts of the face.
12:54In brief terms, if you're thinking about a human looking at a face in three dimension,
13:00the computer can look at beyond 4,000 dimensions.
13:04He replied, yes, I can run that through my algorithm.
13:08I'll be in touch, and I had to wait.
13:11There aren't many people to talk to now who really knew Lord Lucan.
13:28You were the nanny before Sandra.
13:31Can I show you something?
13:37Can we just show Tacky that one picture?
13:41Why don't you just get a photograph?
13:47The top one is, of course, Lord Lucan,
13:49and presumably as you remember him, yeah?
13:51Yeah.
13:52And the other picture is of the man Neil has found in Australia.
14:01I'm speechless, can't be three.
14:0595% is the same person.
14:11He's the same man 50 years on.
14:16Who are they claiming that this person is?
14:18Lord Lucan.
14:19Oh, no, no.
14:21That's very funny.
14:23No, that ain't Lord Lucan.
14:26First of all,
14:28no, it's not my friend Lucky.
14:30Have you ever been wrong?
14:36AI is not foolproof,
14:38but I haven't been wrong so far.
14:41In our test cases,
14:43they are 99.9% accurate.
14:44I heard nothing.
15:06Not sleeping for four or five days.
15:10I'm driving to work and I'm thinking,
15:15what if I've got it wrong?
15:17What if he comes back and we've got the wrong man?
15:20The police said we got the wrong man.
15:22And then I'm thinking,
15:23no, no, Neil,
15:24don't be so silly because
15:25you've got it right.
15:28Stop questioning yourself, Neil.
15:30What are you doing?
15:31I can't be wrong
15:32because of all the secret filming,
15:34all the scars,
15:35all this,
15:36everything he said.
15:37You know you're right.
15:39Just believe in yourself for once.
15:42But what if it's wrong?
15:44What are we going to do?
15:50The crime scene photographs.
15:55You never unsee them.
15:57You know, I spent two years
16:01on antidepressants.
16:04Playing in bed all day.
16:06Wouldn't even go out the door.
16:07Don't want to.
16:10If we are wrong,
16:11then there's obviously
16:11a lot of trouble coming,
16:12isn't there?
16:18I downloaded those images
16:19and ran the face recognition algorithm.
16:24The computer measures
16:25the similarity
16:26in terms of numbers.
16:29We found that
16:30anything above 75%,
16:32you know,
16:33we know it's the same individual.
16:40I get this text message,
16:43go and look at your email.
16:45It's funny talking about it now,
16:47isn't it?
16:47Because I almost want to cry.
16:48I get this text message,
16:51go and look at your email.
16:54It's funny talking about it now,
16:55isn't it?
16:56The first image comes through
16:58at 76.2%.
17:01The next set is 78.5%.
17:08Then the next set is 79.4%.
17:14Next, 82.1% match.
17:2082.1%!
17:23And the last image, 88.5% match.
17:29Professor Hassan Yugail's cutting-edge algorithm has come to the conclusion,
17:37with high statistical probability, the man in Australia with five names is Lord Lucan.
17:42Professor Hassan Yugail's cutting-edge algorithm has come to the conclusion with high statistical probability,
17:50the man in Australia with five names is Lord Lucan.
17:53We sent it off to two other respected AI departments, one in America and another in London, and both of those studies came in with results either the same or higher than Professor Hassan Yugail.
18:20Left me breathless, to be honest, but for Neil, it just took him up another level.
18:28I mean, as far as he was concerned, I want to see the whites of his eyes.
18:32I want to confront him in person.
18:33Got the science.
18:45Couldn't wait to see him.
18:49I found out that he'd moved out of Brisbane to a remote part of the countryside.
18:53By a stroke of luck, my mum's boyfriend, at the time of her death, John Hankin, lived just north of Brisbane.
19:10Well, he's certainly got some of his mother's guts.
19:13I don't think he should be a builder, I think he should be a bloody police officer.
19:24Your health, mate.
19:25Yeah, cheers.
19:25Good to see you again.
19:26And to your mum.
19:31I was thinking about it the other night, sitting down and having a couple of quiet ones by myself,
19:35and I realised that I'm the only one that actually knew her.
19:43I mean, I never knew her at all, did I?
19:44Sandra was a good person, mate.
19:47A really good person.
19:49It's important that somewhere down the track she gets a bit of justice.
19:54Well, if I was to tell you that the facial recognition, which is a match,
20:01and I've tracked him down again to a place near Bundaberg,
20:07and I was wondering whether you would like to come with me.
20:11Got me.
20:12I'm there.
20:13Are you sure?
20:13Absolutely.
20:14I'm there.
20:44What do you think are the chances of somebody finding Lucan alive today?
20:52How would a gambler put it?
20:5510,000 to one?
20:58Bigger odds.
20:59I'll give you bigger odds.
21:04Neil thinks that he's found him as a Buddhist monk living in Australia.
21:08I can absolutely understand the desire for it to be true,
21:11and to be perfectly honest, I'd love it to be true.
21:14It'd be amazing if it were true.
21:17Neil sent pictures of him to an AI facial recognition expert.
21:22He's never been wrong, and the results came back,
21:24but it is very likely that he is Lord Lucan.
21:27Well, that's extraordinary.
21:28Imagine if you thought you'd eluded justice for that long, and your nemesis has found you.
21:36The plan was to go there to show him pictures of my mother.
21:51I wanted to see the expression on his face, the way that he looked at her.
22:02And then show him the facial recognition results.
22:06Here you go.
22:07What are you going to say about that?
22:09Oh, God.
22:13Panic's sitting in now.
22:20Slow down a bit.
22:24Hold up, guys.
22:24Oh, there's that one.
22:26It's got to be.
22:27Hold on, slowly, Neil.
22:30I think you'd stop listening to anyone at that point.
22:33Yeah.
22:33I wanted to look at him in the eyes.
22:37I just wanted to be there.
22:40In the same room.
22:42OK, let me deal with it.
22:45Hello.
22:46G'day.
22:46G'day.
22:46How are you?
22:47I'm Neil Berryman.
22:50Yes.
22:51We're filming a documentary.
22:53Yes.
22:54We've got important information that Christopher might like to see.
23:00Is that a problem?
23:01No.
23:03Give us a chance.
23:10It wasn't your mother that was murdered.
23:13No, I understand this.
23:14But he's not the man who murdered your mother.
23:17Well, we've got some information here that says it is.
23:21We've had facial recognition done.
23:23Comes as a match.
23:25Can I just show him this?
23:29I feel not at this time.
23:31When?
23:31You know, it's been 49 years.
23:37Yes.
23:38We've both been suffering through those 49 years.
23:40And I'm sorry.
23:41And if he isn't the person...
23:42As Neil was talking to him, this guy stepped to his right.
23:47And that's when I saw this guy sitting on the lounge behind him.
23:50He's sort of parted ways.
23:53And I recognised him straight away.
23:55That's him.
23:59That is him.
24:01There's no doubt in my mind.
24:03I'm sorry.
24:03I'm going to have to ask him to politely.
24:05Yeah, no.
24:06No, that's okay.
24:07Can, um...
24:07Would Billy be all right if Chris would just have a look at these?
24:11It's Neil Berryman.
24:12No, I'm not there.
24:14I'd appreciate if there was no filming done.
24:17But can I go and see him if they stay there?
24:19As long as there's no filming, yeah.
24:22So, um, Neil, we need to turn your mic off.
24:24Yeah, yeah, that's fine.
24:39I was so fucking angry, I had to walk out.
24:42I was bombarding him with stuff when you were around the corner.
24:46He just sits there.
24:48He was looking at me thinking,
24:49this bloke's got so much information on me, I'm doomed.
24:53Well done, John.
24:55Well done.
25:04It was amazing, wasn't it?
25:05Looked straight at this bloke, and I knew straight away,
25:09that's Lord Lucan.
25:11I swear on my mother's grave, that is Lord Lucan.
25:15That bastard is there.
25:17I cannot believe it when I pointed to him and said,
25:20I know you're Lord Lucan,
25:21and then straight away with arrogance,
25:23he just follows up with this,
25:25well, if I am Lord Lucan,
25:27what the fuck are you going to do?
25:29Put me in prison?
25:32He was calm and collected,
25:33and then he just, like, turned, didn't he?
25:36Yeah.
25:36A hundred per cent.
25:38That man back there is Lord Lucan.
25:41Hey, how's it going?
25:52You all right?
25:53Yeah, yeah, what happened?
25:55Was he there?
25:56Yeah, John said it's him.
25:57That's him?
25:58A hundred per cent.
25:59I did go off on one.
26:01Started hitting him with all this information,
26:04and then he just looks up,
26:05and quite aggressively, he goes,
26:07and what if I am Lord Lucan?
26:09What the fuck are you going to do about it?
26:11Because you must have rattled him.
26:13So then Klet said to him,
26:15if you're not Lord Lucan,
26:18you know, then who are you?
26:20And he said,
26:22I was birthed into Stonehenge
26:24and was brought up by the Druids.
26:28The soul.
26:31She said,
26:32well, you obviously sound quite educated.
26:35Did you go to school?
26:38Which his reply was,
26:40yes, Eton.
26:42Lord Lucan did go to school at Eton.
26:46It's almost like he lives in the fantasy land,
26:49but then goes back to telling the truth.
26:52Yeah.
26:53Seriously, if I were you,
26:54I'd go back and chill out for a bit,
26:56because I'd tell you,
26:56it sounds like you've been living on your nerves
26:58for the last few hours.
26:59Take care.
27:00Bye-bye.
27:00Bye-bye.
27:01Bye-bye.
27:01Bye.
27:04So,
27:05the carer took a picture of us.
27:07Yeah, look at him.
27:09What did you...
27:13How did you feel
27:15sitting next to potentially a murderer?
27:19Potentially a murderer
27:22or potentially an old man
27:25who's a Buddhist
27:27and into peace and karma.
27:31So, all the evidence and the science
27:34hasn't convinced you yet, then?
27:39It's not that it hasn't convinced me,
27:42it's just that there's got to be,
27:44in all of us,
27:46what if you're wrong?
27:49I'm not wrong.
27:51I'm not wrong.
28:01It was classic Neil.
28:02He'd gone in all guns blazing.
28:04And this man kicks off.
28:07You know,
28:07what if I was Lord Luke
28:08and what the F are you going to do about it?
28:12But at least I had something
28:14that I could work on.
28:16So I called the records office at Eton.
28:18So, what's the surname?
28:20Crowther,
28:21spelled C-R-O-W-T-H-E-R.
28:24He would have left Eton
28:26around 1953,
28:29four.
28:31I've got one Crowther.
28:33Two left here in 61.
28:35No other D Crowther.
28:37He's the only one.
28:40It was out of our time period
28:42and it wasn't our man.
28:44If this man had gone to Eton,
28:46I knew for a fact
28:47he hadn't gone as Derek Crowther.
28:50Had he revealed a truth now
28:52about his real life?
28:56Could Derek Crowther
28:58be a stolen identity?
29:03This is the birth certificate
29:05for Derek Crowther.
29:08It says here his father
29:09was a railway carriage cleaner.
29:12My father originally
29:14was with a baker ship
29:16at the back of New Poland.
29:18Oh, really?
29:19Now I got to meet all that.
29:21This man, Derek Crowther,
29:23was born on the 5th of July, 1936,
29:2618 months after Lord Lucan.
29:29It's not spot on,
29:31but it's close.
29:32Not a noticeable age gap
29:34as you get older.
29:36So I delve deeper
29:38into this man's supposed identity.
29:401998.
29:42Here he is going,
29:43Derek Crowther,
29:44to Adam Cadman.
29:45Next,
29:472008,
29:48Adam Cadman
29:49to Christopher Newman.
29:51He reapplies,
29:52and this time,
29:53Christopher Newman
29:54to Christopher Bell.
29:57Whoever this man is,
29:59he went to the bother
29:59of changing his name
30:01by law
30:01a minimum
30:02of four times.
30:04Why would you do that?
30:05You were quite cross
30:20when you squared up to him.
30:23Well,
30:24you would be angry,
30:24wouldn't you?
30:25And yeah,
30:25I was fired up.
30:27Just sitting there
30:28like Lord Mupp.
30:28And I was just
30:32trying to get
30:33my point across
30:34that everything
30:35that he tells other people
30:36is just lies.
30:37I think you did
30:38piss him off quite a bit.
30:39Yeah, good.
30:41Yeah, I did piss him off.
30:42Well,
30:43I don't give a...
30:44monkeys.
30:52You know,
30:52he's had all these name changes.
30:54It's all so bizarre.
30:55It would just be good
30:56to hear his version
30:58how would you feel
30:59if I went in
31:00and tried to talk to him?
31:04I mean,
31:05he might open up to you.
31:06I mean,
31:06to be fair,
31:07I didn't even give him a chance.
31:11The way that I come across
31:13is probably not ideal
31:14at this particular moment.
31:17If you can do
31:17the softly, softly approach,
31:19then...
31:20then go for it.
31:28Are we all good for sound
31:40and we're all ready
31:41and running?
31:42All right.
31:44So, you've come all the way
31:46from England
31:47to be here?
31:48Yeah.
31:49Oh, okay.
31:51All the way from London.
31:53All the way from...
31:53How is London these days?
31:57Rainy.
31:59Cold.
32:01Thinking about
32:02going back to visit,
32:03but,
32:03you know,
32:05finances today
32:07aren't what they used to be.
32:08There's been a lot of confusion
32:17about your identity.
32:19Big questions
32:19about who you are.
32:21So, who are you?
32:24Well,
32:25on the best certificate
32:27it says
32:27Derek Bell Crowder.
32:30I think that's...
32:32You think?
32:33Something like that.
32:35Yeah.
32:35Yeah.
32:36It does do.
32:37It's interesting
32:38that you say
32:38it's on my birth certificate.
32:40That's like slightly
32:40removing it from you.
32:42So, where did you grow up?
32:44Er...
32:45Oh,
32:46I ran...
32:48Ran London.
32:52Do you remember where?
32:54Oh, God.
32:58Different places.
33:00When I was here last time,
33:02I said to you,
33:03you seem very educated.
33:04Yes, I went to schools,
33:07but I was also thrown out.
33:10I actually educated myself.
33:12You don't remember
33:13what you said to me then?
33:14No, well, that was then.
33:16This is now.
33:17I know.
33:17In this moment.
33:18Exactly.
33:19But then,
33:19you said to me
33:20that you went to Eton.
33:22Yeah,
33:22and I was thrown out.
33:25Oh, so you...
33:27Did you go to Eton?
33:28Yeah,
33:28I was sent there.
33:29Part of the family
33:33was English aristocracy also,
33:36that, you know?
33:39Buckingham Palace and...
33:41But did you actually
33:43have a connection
33:43with the palace?
33:45Your father,
33:46so you said
33:46that he was a baker?
33:48Look,
33:49as much as I knew,
33:52as much as I mean,
33:53I mean,
33:54there was such a chaos
33:55and confusion.
33:56Do you see why
34:01talking about
34:02having grown up
34:02in the palace
34:03knowing Princess Margaret?
34:05Because no one
34:06can actually get
34:07to the bottom of that,
34:08it ends up making people
34:09feel quite uncomfortable
34:11about it.
34:12Not helped by the fact
34:13that some people
34:14know you by different names.
34:17Oh.
34:19Can you tell us,
34:20like,
34:20what's with all the name changes,
34:21what that's about?
34:23Oh,
34:23just different energies,
34:25different.
34:26You take on
34:28different names.
34:30Birthless,
34:31deathless,
34:31timeless,
34:32ageless.
34:33I am you
34:34and you are me
34:34and that's it
34:35and it's like
34:36a great mystery.
34:39But, um,
34:40I think what would be
34:42good to clarify here
34:43is you're not known
34:45as Derek,
34:45is that right?
34:46Well, no,
34:47I mean,
34:47it's like,
34:49um...
34:50Adam Cadman,
34:51then there was
34:52Christopher Newman.
34:54New man.
34:56The new man.
34:59People said,
35:00oh,
35:00you're this,
35:01you're that,
35:01and I said,
35:02oh, okay.
35:03And Christopher Bell.
35:06I, look...
35:08I...
35:09You see,
35:12this is where I get
35:13to a place of annoyance.
35:15Because,
35:15basically,
35:16I couldn't give a tan.
35:17But when Neil's
35:20put it to you
35:21that you've been
35:22on the run
35:22for over 40 years,
35:24you have said to him,
35:25well, you could say that.
35:26I haven't been
35:27on the run
35:27for 40 years.
35:29I've been trying
35:30to find
35:31reasonable places
35:32to live,
35:34companions
35:34and friends,
35:35and...
35:36The reason why
35:37I think partly
35:37it's become so hard
35:39to work out
35:39whether or not
35:40you're Lord Lucan...
35:41Look,
35:42I do not know
35:43who the hell
35:44Lord Lucan is,
35:46okay?
35:48Now,
35:48if you've finished,
35:50I'm getting bored
35:51with this interview.
35:53Can I just ask you
35:54one thing,
35:54which I think
35:54is quite important?
35:56Yes.
35:56Is that the awful
35:57tragedy of this
35:58for Neil,
35:59he believes
36:00that you're Lord Lucan,
36:01and I know
36:01that you've very strongly
36:03said you're not,
36:03but Neil is tortured
36:05by not knowing
36:06the answer to that.
36:08So I wonder
36:09if there's a Buddhist way
36:10that Neil could find
36:11some healing now.
36:13Are you aware
36:14that the world
36:15is about to go
36:16through a tremendous
36:17collapse,
36:19the whole human race?
36:22Millions of years
36:23of evolution
36:24is about to terminate
36:26all of you.
36:30That was rather dystopian,
36:32but he is ruthless
36:34sometimes in his compassion
36:35and has got to a place
36:36where he's maybe not
36:38as outwardly loving kindness
36:40as you'd ordinarily expect
36:42from someone like him.
36:48You know,
36:49you're a Buddhist in...
36:50I'm not a fucking Buddhist.
36:52I'm not anything.
36:53Are you not?
36:53OK.
36:54Sorry.
36:54No.
36:54My mistake.
36:55For Neil,
37:00I would say
37:00that I can only imagine
37:01the pain
37:03that this has brought.
37:05It's not fair at all.
37:07And I would also ask
37:08the question,
37:09if finally
37:10he found the man
37:11that did it,
37:12would it truly
37:13heal that wound?
37:16Neil,
37:16I pray that you find peace.
37:19Where you are, Neil,
37:21I can assure you
37:22I am not that man.
37:25Never have been,
37:26never will be.
37:30I was born Derek Crowther.
37:34My mother,
37:35Lady Winifred Ramoose,
37:37whose father
37:38got a newspaper game
37:41called The Daily Mirror.
37:45I worked at a toy store
37:47called Hamley's
37:49in Regent Street.
37:50I would go in
37:51and do shop window display.
37:53Do you remember
37:54when it was
37:54that you left London?
37:56In 1966.
37:58And what was it
37:59that made you leave?
38:00I had a dream.
38:04I'd travelled
38:05to Toronto, Canada.
38:07I got involved
38:08with the ballet.
38:09We opened up
38:10the Global Village Theatre Company.
38:12And we put on a show
38:14called Facade
38:14and we were all
38:16female impersonators.
38:18Very good at what we did.
38:20I met Timothy Leary,
38:25experimenting with LSD.
38:28Hippies were arriving
38:29and Woodstock.
38:31No!
38:31Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!
38:35Then I met
38:36Kalu Rinpoche,
38:38one of the first
38:38great Tibetan masters.
38:40I was acknowledged
38:41as a holy man.
38:43We're all travelling
38:47through India
38:47and His Holiness
38:49the Dalai Lama
38:50was invited
38:51and I was recognised
38:54as His Western Incarnation.
38:58May you be well and happy
39:00and free from suffering.
39:03Thank you,
39:03all of you are here.
39:05That, that's finished.
39:27Who are you?
39:27I started looking into
39:36all of the old man's claims
39:37and nothing checked out.
39:40Nothing.
39:41Except for one.
39:43We opened up
39:44the Global Village Theatre Company
39:46and we put on a show
39:48called Facade.
39:49I found a reference
39:50to this production
39:52Facade
39:53and the director
39:56was still alive
39:58so I called him up.
40:00All the newspapers
40:01at the time,
40:02most of the reviews
40:03were very favourable.
40:05There was a lot of grass
40:07being smoked.
40:08Right.
40:09And I told him
40:10that I was trying
40:10to find somebody
40:11who'd performed
40:12in his play.
40:13I know him
40:14as Derek Crowder.
40:16I've never ever heard
40:17of a Derek Crowder.
40:19Right.
40:20Now I'm hoping
40:21you can see this, Michael.
40:23That, that's the man
40:24we're talking about.
40:25Is that, uh...
40:27That's Peter.
40:30That's Peter Jason.
40:34I can see it
40:35by the eyes
40:36and the mouth
40:36and, yeah,
40:38his ears
40:38slightly stick out.
40:40So you're absolutely sure?
40:42Yeah, that's Peter.
40:43And his stage name
40:45was Jenny Romaine.
40:48The director
40:49sent photos.
40:59He was very musical.
41:01He was a comedy queen.
41:04Peter and I
41:05weren't friends per se.
41:08He was in the show.
41:09He was very interested
41:11in spirituality,
41:13Buddhism,
41:14theosophy.
41:21So when exactly
41:23did you put
41:24this performance on?
41:26During the run of facade,
41:28the big news of the day
41:29was the moon launch.
41:32We always were in awe
41:36that the night
41:37when man landed
41:39on the moon...
41:40Okay, Neil,
41:41we can see you
41:41coming down the ladder now.
41:43We thought we would be
41:45empty because
41:46everybody would be
41:48glued to their TVs.
41:49You're setting up
41:50the flag now.
41:51And we were packed.
41:52It was an exciting time.
41:59July 1969.
42:01Five years before the murder.
42:08If he was on stage
42:10in Canada in 1969,
42:12how could he be
42:16Lord Lucan?
42:20Tricky.
42:22Yeah.
42:22So the director
42:40of the production
42:42for Saad,
42:43he remembers
42:45the production
42:46really well.
42:47But he'd never heard
42:48of Derek Crowther.
42:50When he saw
42:51a picture
42:52of the old man...
42:53Oh, yes, yeah.
42:55He said,
42:56oh, no, no,
42:56I do know him,
42:57but that's not Derek.
43:00That's Peter.
43:01Peter Jason.
43:05Oh, brilliant.
43:07He's Peter Jason,
43:08but as a woman
43:09called Jenny Romaine.
43:13A woman?
43:15Well, he's a drag queen.
43:18He was in a production
43:19in 1969
43:20before the murder.
43:22So that's hard
43:23to explain away.
43:25Should I show you a picture?
43:26No.
43:29What about the scar
43:31on his nose?
43:32Telling me that Derek Crowther's
43:34got a scar on his nose
43:35in exactly the same place
43:37as Lord Lucan's medical records.
43:41It's impossible.
43:44I think you should look
43:44at the picture.
43:45Look at the picture.
43:50Oh, brilliant.
43:53What a load of bullshit.
43:56So what you're saying now
43:57is we're all wrong,
43:59then, basically.
44:01So I've wasted 17 years
44:03of my life, basically.
44:05I don't think
44:05you've wasted them.
44:06Well, looking at it this way,
44:08I do.
44:08I don't think so.
44:09Well, I do.
44:10You're trying to tell me
44:11I've got it wrong.
44:13It's not Lucan.
44:14Fine.
44:19That's the way it is.
44:20That's how it'll have to end.
44:24Well, no, actually, no.
44:25What do you mean it's ended
44:25like this?
44:26It hasn't ended, has it?
44:27Hey, hey.
44:40There you go.
44:45We need to have
44:46a very honest chat
44:47about these, don't we?
44:48When I first saw
44:49this picture,
44:51I didn't even know
44:52which one I was looking at.
44:53When you first look at it,
44:54yes,
44:55but this man here
44:57says,
44:58I was in this drag act
45:00in Toronto
45:00in 1969.
45:03And I've spoken to
45:04Michael Oscars,
45:06who's in his late 70s,
45:07but he's with it,
45:08and he's kind of very adamant
45:09that this man
45:10he knew in 1969
45:12is this man,
45:13Derek Crowther,
45:14in Australia.
45:15Lord Lucan
45:16can't be in two places,
45:17can he?
45:18He's supposed to be
45:19playing Baccarat
45:19at the Casino Tables
45:20of London in 1969.
45:22OK.
45:23He's got it wrong.
45:25Derek Crowther,
45:26Derek Crowther,
45:28Lucan.
45:31He has stolen
45:32that man's identity.
45:36If you're going to
45:37go on the run
45:37for 50 years,
45:38you ain't going to run
45:39as Lord Lucan,
45:39do you?
45:42We've got three
45:43facial recognition
45:44companies
45:44saying it's Lucan.
45:47But it can get it wrong.
45:49That is somebody
45:54that told me
45:55that my mum
45:56was a disturbed person.
45:57Only Lucan
45:58would know that.
46:00What if I am
46:01Lord Lucan?
46:01What the fuck
46:02are you going to do
46:03about it?
46:03Would Derek Crowther
46:04say that?
46:06No.
46:07Where does that
46:07put John Hankins then?
46:09He's wrong.
46:10He's wrong,
46:10is he?
46:11John's not wrong.
46:13John just might
46:14be mistaken.
46:18Look,
46:19I know
46:19you want it
46:21to be him
46:21and I understand
46:22completely why.
46:24But
46:25I think
46:28we've got it wrong.
46:28I think
46:40it's going
46:41to rain,
46:41Lucan.
46:50This was
46:51my Everest.
46:55I made it
46:55past base camp
46:56but didn't get
46:57to the summit.
46:58people keep
47:06telling me
47:06that I should
47:07move away
47:07from the murder.
47:10You.
47:12Kim.
47:16I'm trying
47:16to prove
47:17that a life
47:17is worth
47:18more than
47:18that
47:19and
47:20I'm the one
47:21that's been
47:22put on the
47:23journey to do it.
47:25When nobody's
47:26put me there
47:27I've decided
47:27to do it myself.
47:28I don't know
47:29why.
47:31Maybe it's
47:32because I
47:32didn't know
47:33her.
47:34Do you think?
47:35you've done so
47:39much for her
47:39though?
47:42Haven't you?
47:42You should feel
47:43good about that.
47:48I don't know.
47:56Do you think
47:57you've failed
47:57you've failed
47:57you've failed
47:57your mum
47:58if you don't
47:58find her
47:59murderer?
48:00In a way.
48:08It's such a strain
48:09on your mental
48:11health,
48:12on your
48:12relationships.
48:14Sandra,
48:15would she want
48:16that?
48:17No.
48:17you've
48:19you've
48:20you've
48:24put so much
48:29into
48:29finding
48:31your real
48:32mother's
48:32killer
48:33but do you
48:35ever think
48:35that actually
48:36this might
48:36all be
48:37a lot
48:37more
48:37about
48:38your
48:38adoptive
48:38mother?
48:39Well she
48:42was the
48:42one that
48:42started
48:43going off
48:43wasn't she
48:44bless her?
48:46Your
48:46adoptive
48:47mother
48:47Audrey
48:47she was
48:48the one
48:49who showed
48:49you what
48:49her mother
48:50is?
48:53Yep.
48:59Well she
48:59was my
49:00mother
49:00for
49:01you know
49:0340 years.
49:09That's a
49:13lovely picture.
49:14Did she
49:15spoil you?
49:16Yes.
49:17Best apple
49:18crumble
49:18ever.
49:20To you
49:21that's what
49:21her mother
49:21is and
49:22you've
49:22lost her?
49:24I've
49:24lost
49:24two.
49:28You
49:28honestly
49:29have done
49:29something so
49:30extraordinary
49:31in
49:32their
49:32memory.
49:34I suppose
49:34so.
49:36I haven't
49:36looked at
49:36it like
49:36that
49:37do I?
49:39I
49:43love
49:43my mum.
49:44What do
49:45you think
49:45she'd
49:45say
49:45to you?
49:49She
49:49would have
49:50said
49:50you've
49:51done
49:51your
49:51bit
49:51you've
49:52got
49:52as
49:52far
49:52as
49:53you
49:53can
49:53leave
49:53it
49:53alone.
49:57Do
49:58you think
49:58it would
49:58be good
49:59for you
49:59to let
50:00it
50:00go
50:00now?
50:02Yes.
50:05At
50:06the
50:06moment
50:06I'm
50:07not
50:07there
50:08to be
50:09honest
50:09with
50:09you.
50:10But
50:11if
50:11you
50:11got
50:11to
50:11the
50:12realisation
50:12that
50:13that
50:13old
50:13man
50:14wasn't
50:14Lucan?
50:16How
50:16am I
50:16going to
50:16get to
50:17that?
50:18OK.
50:18But
50:19if
50:19you
50:19do
50:19would
50:20you
50:20keep
50:21looking?
50:23No.
50:27Every
50:28day
50:28for 17
50:29years.
50:29I mean
50:29that's
50:30not
50:31good
50:31is it?
50:32Well
50:36how old
50:37would
50:37Lucan
50:37be
50:37now?
50:38He's
50:3889.
50:41It's
50:42something
50:42that
50:42needs
50:43to
50:43stop
50:43at
50:46some
50:46stage.
50:49Yeah.
50:52All right
50:52so
50:52my
50:52this is
50:53what
50:53I
50:53think
50:54OK
50:54to end
50:55the
50:55programme
50:56I
50:58think
50:58the
50:59man
50:59in
51:00Australia
51:00is
51:02Lord
51:02Lucan
51:03who's
51:03stolen
51:04Derek
51:04Crowther's
51:05identity.
51:07Where's
51:07Derek
51:08Crowther?
51:08The
51:08real
51:09one?
51:12That
51:13will
51:13come
51:14in
51:14part
51:15two.
51:19Sorry.
51:23Oh
51:24I've
51:24seen
51:25you
51:25laugh
51:25like
51:25that
51:25for
51:25ages.
51:26Well
51:26this
51:26is
51:27meant
51:27to
51:27be
51:27a
51:27serious
51:27programme.
51:28Um
51:56to
51:57to
51:57have
51:58to
51:59have
52:01to
52:01have
52:03been
52:03to
52:04have
52:05a
52:05to
52:06have
52:07been
52:08to
52:08have
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