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00:00I'm a friend of Dougal's. There's a Dougal?
00:12Yes, there is a Dougal, better.
00:14And, um...
00:17This is the bit that you don't see.
00:20Because you're filming me at the angle.
00:23I'm standing there and I can see him.
00:26And he just comes out of his door and he's just coming towards me
00:29and he's just staring at me.
00:32And I was just looking straight down at him,
00:34thinking, this is the man that murdered my mother.
00:38Barbara or Christopher? Yes.
00:40And I remember Glenn's face?
00:42I'm Pete. I'm Pete, yes.
00:45Nice to meet you.
00:59Beza, Pete, we winged the whole thing and it worked somehow.
01:07We pulled off one of the biggest undercover operations of the century.
01:12And we managed to get the one thing to prove our case.
01:17Photographs of the old man.
01:20We gave the British police our evidence package
01:29and they handed it over to the Australian Federal Police.
01:32And they came back saying,
01:34he's Derek Crowther and he's got a birth certificate to prove it.
01:38Now, I know it's quite easy to get a fake birth certificate.
01:41They also said he's too short.
01:43That's just bullshit.
01:46Barbara or Christopher?
01:48And I remember Glenn's face?
01:49The whole height thing is nonsense.
01:51I've looked into this.
01:53You can easily lose up to four inches when you're old.
01:58Neil sent off the photos to facial recognition.
02:03Huh.
02:05A team of people who work using hand and eye analysis.
02:08So they measure distances on the human face
02:11and compare them between the two photos.
02:14Nasal morphology.
02:16Lord Lucan has a narrow nasal bridge.
02:19Male A has a wide nasal bridge.
02:23In layman's terms, his nose was too flared.
02:26His ears stuck out too much.
02:28Not the same man.
02:30They're wrong.
02:33Anybody can get plastic surgery.
02:35Nose and ears, that's easy to do, isn't it?
02:37Waste of time.
02:38Those are posh words.
02:41But these people do facial recognition for the police.
02:44Well, that's a worry, isn't it?
02:51Neil had had knock backs on this before,
02:53but he's got this conviction, like titanium,
02:58and it runs through him.
03:00It seems that there's been some sort of skin
03:03or some plastic surgery inserted in the ear,
03:06where the ear meets the head.
03:10To obviously make them flared,
03:11you can see scarring.
03:14It is terribly done.
03:16I mean, look at the mess of it.
03:18I completely underestimated him when I met him.
03:20If he were going to go on the run,
03:22you wouldn't go looking the same as what you did in 1974, would you?
03:27I'd put him into the little box of a builder from Hampshire
03:30who I can not use, but certainly work with
03:35to help my journalistic investigations.
03:38What I never realised would happen
03:39was that he was canny enough, clever enough,
03:42to drive forward far further than I could ever have gone.
03:45This is Lucan's plastic surgeon report
03:48when he had the speedboat accident, 1963.
03:53His left nostril, there's a nick.
03:57And you can see there...
04:00..the nick in exactly the same place.
04:08I started this off 17 years ago,
04:10wanting to do what was right for Sandra.
04:13Um...
04:20From what I know about my mother,
04:22she'd had a really troubled early life.
04:25She was pregnant as a teenager,
04:27checked herself into a mental hospital.
04:30I think she was lost.
04:34Somebody needs to stand up for her.
04:37The old man in Australia.
04:38It was time for me to confront him as me,
04:43Sandra Rivet's son.
04:44So I fixed it with the carer.
04:48We're gonna speak on a WhatsApp call.
04:50Just me and the old man,
04:52and no-one else.
04:53Let's see what we can do.
04:54I've got this far.
04:55I was after a confession.
04:56Let's do this.
04:57I was after a confession.
04:58Let's do this.
05:01Hi, Chris.
05:02How are you?
05:03How are you?
05:04Hi, Chris.
05:05How are you?
05:06Hi, Chris.
05:07How are you?
05:08Hi, Chris.
05:09How are you?
05:10Hi, Chris.
05:11How are you?
05:12Hi.
05:13I'm well, thank you.
05:14Good, good.
05:15I have to be.
05:16Um, Beza Dugall left me an envelope after he died.
05:19I'm fine.
05:21I can do.
05:22I've got this far.
05:23I was after a confession.
05:24Let's do this.
05:26Hi, Chris.
05:28How are you?
05:30I, I'm well, thank you.
05:31Good, good.
05:32I have to be.
05:34Um, Beza Dugall left me an envelope after he died.
05:39left me an envelope after he died.
05:44Perfect.
05:46Basically saying that I had to protect you
05:53because he knows your real identity.
05:59Oh, right. Yeah, exactly.
06:02OK, so...
06:04Basically, that now means that I know who you really are.
06:11You know what I'm trying to say, don't you?
06:15Yes.
06:16OK, because, I mean, obviously,
06:20you've basically been on the run for 44 years, haven't you?
06:26Well, I don't know if you could say that.
06:28Yes.
06:29If you look at it like that.
06:32Um...
06:37On the run for 44 years.
06:41Could you just explain to me
06:44there was a lady that had to have karma repaid, wasn't there?
06:48Back a few years ago, when you left London?
06:53Well, yes, I...
06:54I'd heard a lot of karma from Stephen.
06:59He's the man in Australia who'd written to me.
07:02He said, I want to confess to you.
07:04Like, I called Sandra.
07:05She had karma to repay her.
07:06It's her own fault.
07:08So, I thought I'd throw the word karma in
07:10to try and reel him in.
07:12This lady also knew Besadougal.
07:16But because you were there for Besadougal,
07:20you helped him.
07:21I would also like to help you.
07:25That is why, um...
07:28I know that you're Lord Lupin.
07:31Um...
07:33That is why I don't want to do anything about it.
07:38Well, there actually isn't much you can do about it.
07:43Oh.
07:44It's all...
07:45It's all in the hands of the divine.
07:56Your real name is Richard John Binger, isn't it?
07:59So...
08:02Well, yeah, I mean, I...
08:05Um...
08:06Chris.
08:07No, but...
08:08Yeah.
08:09You might as well just tell the truth,
08:11because I honestly think you need to lift the weight
08:13off of your shoulders, don't you?
08:16Well, on my, um...
08:21Yes.
08:24It's categorized as...
08:26Derek Crowther.
08:29He says advertised.
08:31He's reading of the birth certificate.
08:34I can see him looking across to the left to read it.
08:37But he had to look.
08:40I'm thinking,
08:41oh, you can't hide behind Derek Crowther for much longer.
08:44It's all bullshit.
08:46I now need to use the kill word.
08:49The woman that you killed,
08:51could you explain to me why she needed karma to be repaid?
08:56It's like when somebody tries to stop you
09:00from helping out or from, you know,
09:04it's, it's, it's a very bit destructive.
09:08She came from a background...
09:10Yes.
09:11...that was very horrendous.
09:13Right.
09:14She was in a great deal of pain and stress.
09:18Right.
09:19You're saying that Sandra Rivet was also a troubled being?
09:23Well, yes.
09:25Sandra Rivet was a disturbed person.
09:28So he's saying he knows her then.
09:30He's very relaxed about it all, isn't he?
09:32Well, I, I just had to, to sleep, walk away from it all.
09:37But you did kill her though, didn't you?
09:40Well, I, I have no memory of killing anybody,
09:45of terminated anybody's life,
09:48other than walking away from them.
09:51And, I mean, it's...
09:54Oh dear.
09:56You're losing it, I bet. You're losing it.
09:57And, and, um, I'll, um...
10:00You know that you are Lord Lucan, aren't you?
10:03I don't know where that comes from.
10:05But you know who he is, don't you?
10:08No, I don't.
10:10He, he's backpedalling here.
10:12Shall I tell you who I really am?
10:15I'm Sandra Rivet's son.
10:18Oh.
10:20Look, now, when you talk about Sandra Rivet,
10:23it doesn't mean anything to me.
10:25But just a minute ago, you said that she was a disturbed woman,
10:28so you must have known her.
10:33Yeah, exactly.
10:35Just tell me the truth, Chris.
10:37I believe you murdered her.
10:39I, I, I can't remember.
10:42As far as I know,
10:44I've never taken the land with anyone.
10:46It is so nearly a complete confession, but it's not.
10:56That's the, I mean, I, I know you want it to be.
11:00Yeah, but then he realises that he started to say too much.
11:03It's a almost full confession,
11:05followed by a ramblings of a confused old man saying,
11:09what are you talking about?
11:10Well, let, let, let's ring off.
11:13OK?
11:17We need something else.
11:19At this precise moment,
11:21I don't know what that is.
11:23BUZZER
11:31Lucan.
11:37Go on, tuck in, Lucan.
11:41The breaks come at the times you least expect them.
11:45While I was on holiday,
11:46I'd been reading a book about the Salisbury poisonings.
11:49The two Russian agents who'd poisoned these scribbles
11:54had been caught on CCTV.
11:57A new technology, AI deep face recognition,
12:01had managed to match their images on CCTV
12:05with online images of them at a military academy.
12:09The person who designed the artificial intelligence software
12:13was an academic at Bradford University,
12:15Professor Hassan Ugail.
12:18So I told Neil about it.
12:21I sent him a nice email.
12:22Could you help me?
12:24I've got a series of pictures.
12:26Some from the old man in Australia
12:29and some of Lord Lucan from Google Images.
12:33Did you tell him who you thought it was?
12:35I told him nothing.
12:41The creation of the algorithm has taken us years.
12:43Millions of human facial images.
12:47The algorithm actually learns
12:48all the intricate details about the face.
12:51If you do your plastic surgery on your nose, for example,
12:54you know, it's not just looking at the nose,
12:57it's actually looking at all the other parts of the face.
13:00In brief terms,
13:02if you're thinking about a human looking at a face in three dimension,
13:05the computer can look at beyond 4,000 dimensions.
13:09He replied,
13:11yes, I can run that through my algorithm.
13:13I'll be in touch and...
13:15I had to wait.
13:16There aren't many people to talk to now who really knew Lord Lucan.
13:29You were the nanny before Sandra.
13:32Can I show you something?
13:34Just...
13:36Can we just show Tacky that one picture?
13:38Why don't you just get a photograph?
13:40The top one is, of course, Lord Lucan,
13:43and presumably as you remember him, yeah?
13:44Yeah.
13:46And the other picture is of the man Neil has found in Australia.
13:48SCREEN REICHER
13:57I'm speechless, completely.
14:0195% as the same person.
14:04I'm speechless, can't be three.
14:1095% is the same person.
14:16He's the same man 50 years old.
14:21Who are they claiming that this person is?
14:23Lord Lucan.
14:24Oh, no, no.
14:26That's very funny.
14:28No, that ain't Lord Lucan.
14:31No, it's not my friend Lucan.
14:39Have you ever been wrong?
14:41AI is not foolproof, but I haven't been wrong so far.
14:46In our test cases, they are 99.9% accurate.
15:01I heard nothing.
15:12Not sleeping for four or five days.
15:18Driving to work and I'm thinking, what if I've got it wrong?
15:22What if he comes back and we've got the wrong man?
15:25The police said we got the wrong man.
15:28And then I'm thinking, no, no, Neil.
15:29Don't be so silly because you've got it right.
15:33Stop questioning yourself, Neil.
15:35What are you doing?
15:36I can't be wrong because of all the secret filming,
15:39all the scars, all this, everything he said.
15:43You know you're right.
15:44Just believe in yourself for once.
15:48But what if it's wrong?
15:49What are we going to do?
15:56The crime scene photographs.
16:00You never unsee them.
16:05I spent two years on antidepressants.
16:10Lay in bed all day.
16:11Wouldn't even go out the door, the one who...
16:14If we are wrong, then there's obviously a lot of trouble coming,
16:17isn't there?
16:23I downloaded those images and ran the face recognition algorithm.
16:29The computer measures the similarity in terms of numbers.
16:34We found that anything above 75%, you know,
16:38we know it's the same individual.
16:45I get this text message.
16:48Go and look at your email.
16:51It's funny talking about it now, isn't it?
16:52Because I almost want to cry.
16:53I just want to cry.
17:02The first image comes through at 76.2%.
17:10The next set, 78.5%.
17:16Then the next set is 79.4%.
17:19Next, 82.1% match.
17:2482.1% match.
17:2682.1% match.
17:28And the last image, 88.5% match.
17:3188.5% match.
17:47Professor Hassan Ugell's cutting-edge algorithm
17:50has come to the conclusion,
17:52with high statistical probability,
17:55the man in Australia with five names is Lord Lucan.
18:01We sent it off to two other respected AI departments,
18:14one in America and another in London.
18:16And both of those studies came in with results
18:20either the same or higher than Professor Hassan Ugell.
18:27Left me breathless, to be honest.
18:28But for Neil, it just took him up another level.
18:34I mean, as far as he was concerned,
18:35I want to see the whites of his eyes.
18:37I want to confront him in person.
18:48Got the science.
18:50Couldn't wait to see him.
18:51I found out that he'd moved out of Brisbane
18:56to a remote part of the countryside.
19:03By stroke of luck,
19:05the mum's boyfriend at the time of her death,
19:08John Hankin,
19:09lived just north of Brisbane.
19:11Well, he's certainly got some of his mother's guts.
19:19Hi, John.
19:20G'day, mate.
19:21How are you?
19:21Good to see you.
19:22I don't think he should be a builder.
19:24I think he should be a bloody police officer.
19:29Your health, mate.
19:30Yeah, cheers.
19:30Good to see you again.
19:31Yeah, no, I'm sure.
19:31And to your mum.
19:32I was thinking about it the other night,
19:38sitting down and having a couple of quiet ones by myself,
19:40and I realised that
19:43I'm the only one that actually knew her.
19:48I mean, I never knew her at all, did I?
19:49Sandra was a good person, mate.
19:52A really good person.
19:54It's important that somewhere down the track
19:57she gets a bit of justice.
19:59Well, if I was to tell you that
20:02the facial recognition,
20:04which is a match,
20:06and I've tracked him down again
20:08to a place near Bundaberg,
20:12and I was wondering whether you would like to come with me.
20:16Got me.
20:17I'm there.
20:17You sure?
20:18Absolutely.
20:18Absolutely.
20:29What do you think are the chances
20:51of somebody finding Lucan alive today?
20:54How would a gambler put it?
21:0010,000 to one?
21:03Bigger odds.
21:04I'll give you bigger odds.
21:09Neil thinks that he's found him
21:10as a Buddhist monk living in Australia.
21:13I can absolutely understand the desire for it to be true,
21:16and to be perfectly honest,
21:17I'd love it to be true.
21:19It'd be amazing if it were true.
21:21Neil sent pictures of him
21:24to an AI facial recognition expert.
21:27He's never been wrong,
21:28and the results came back,
21:29but it is very likely that he is Lord Lucan.
21:32Well, that's extraordinary.
21:35Imagine if you thought you'd eluded justice for that long,
21:38and your nemesis has found you.
21:44That's it, John.
21:46Let's hope he hasn't moved.
21:47Let's hope he hasn't moved.
21:51The plan was to go there to show him pictures of my mother.
21:56I wanted to see the expression on his face,
22:00the way that he looked at her.
22:07Then show him the facial recognition results.
22:11Here you go.
22:12What are you going to say about that?
22:16Oh, God.
22:18Panic sitting in now.
22:19Slow down a bit.
22:29Hold up, guys.
22:30Oh, it's that one.
22:31It's got to be.
22:32Hold on slowly, Neil.
22:35I think you'd stop listening to anyone at that point.
22:38Yeah.
22:40I wanted to look at him in the eyes.
22:42I just wanted to be there.
22:45In the same room.
22:46OK, let me deal with it.
22:50Hello.
22:51G'day.
22:51G'day.
22:51How are you?
22:52I'm Neil Berryman.
22:54Yes.
22:56We're filming a documentary.
22:58Yes.
22:59We've got important information that Christopher might like to see.
23:04Is that a problem?
23:05Give us a chance.
23:15It wasn't your mother that was murdered.
23:18No, I understand this.
23:19But he's not the man who murdered your mother.
23:22Well, we've got some information here that says it is.
23:25We've had facial recognition, Dom.
23:28Comes as a match.
23:30Can I just show him this?
23:34I feel not at this time.
23:36When?
23:37This week.
23:38You know, it's been 49 years.
23:42Yes.
23:42We've both been suffering through those 49 years.
23:45And I'm sorry.
23:46And if he isn't the person...
23:47As Neil was talking to him, this guy stepped to his right.
23:52And that's when I saw this guy sitting on the lounge behind him.
23:56Sort of parked it by his...
23:57And I recognised him straight away.
24:00That's him.
24:04That is him.
24:05There's no doubt in my mind.
24:08I'm sorry.
24:08I'm going to have to...
24:09What can you...
24:09Yeah, no, no, that's okay.
24:11Can, um...
24:12Would it be all right if Christopher just has a look at these?
24:16It's Neil Berryman.
24:17No, I'm not there.
24:19I'd appreciate if there was no filming done.
24:22But can I go and see him?
24:23If they stay there?
24:25As long as there's no filming.
24:26Yeah.
24:27So, um, Neil, we need to turn your mic off.
24:29Yeah, yeah, that's fine.
24:35I was so fucking angry, I had to walk out.
24:47I was bombarding with stuff when you were around the corner.
24:51He just sits there.
24:53He was looking at me thinking,
24:54this bloke's got so much information on me, I'm doomed.
24:58Well done, John.
25:00Well done.
25:01It was amazing, wasn't it?
25:10Looked straight at this bloke, and I knew straight away,
25:14that's Lord Lucan.
25:16I swear on my mother's grave, that is Lord Lucan.
25:20That bastard is there.
25:22I cannot believe it when I pointed to him and said,
25:25I know you're Lord Lucan,
25:26and then straight away with arrogance,
25:28he just follows up with this.
25:30Well, if I am Lord Lucan,
25:32what the fuck are you going to do?
25:34Put me in prison?
25:37He was calm and collected,
25:38and then he just turned, didn't he?
25:41Yeah.
25:42100%.
25:43That man back there is Lord Lucan.
25:56Hey, how's it going?
25:57You all right?
25:58Yeah, yeah, what happened?
25:59Was he there?
26:01Yeah, John said it's him.
26:02That's him?
26:03100%.
26:04I did go off on one.
26:06Started hitting him with all this information,
26:08and then he just looks up, and quite aggressively, he goes,
26:12and what if I am Lord Lucan?
26:14What the fuck are you going to do about it?
26:16Because you must have rattled him.
26:18So then Klet said to him,
26:20if you're not Lord Lucan, you know, then who are you?
26:25And he said, I was birthed into Stonehenge and was brought up by the Druids.
26:31The soul.
26:32The soul.
26:36She said, well, you obviously sound quite educated.
26:40Did you go to school?
26:43Which his reply was, yes, Eton.
26:46Lord Lucan did go to school at Eton.
26:51It's almost like he lives in a fantasy land, but then goes back to telling the truth.
26:57Yeah.
26:57Seriously, if I were you, I'd go back and chill out for a bit,
27:00because I'd tell you, it sounds like you've been living on your nerves for the last few hours.
27:04Take care.
27:05Bye-bye.
27:05Bye-bye.
27:06Bye-bye.
27:06Bye.
27:09So, the carer took a picture of us.
27:12Yeah, look at him.
27:14What did you...
27:18How did you feel sitting next to potentially a murderer?
27:23Potentially a murderer, or potentially an old man who's a Buddhist and into peace and karma.
27:36So, all the evidence and the science hasn't convinced you yet, then?
27:44It's not that it hasn't convinced me, it's just that there's got to be, in all of us, what if you're wrong?
27:53I'm not wrong.
27:56I'm not wrong.
28:06It was classic Neil, he'd gone in all guns blazing.
28:09And this man kicks off.
28:11You know, what if I was Lord Lucan?
28:13What the F are you going to do about it?
28:15But at least I had something that I could work on, so I called the records office at Eaton.
28:23So, what's the surname you're looking for?
28:25Crowther, spelled C-R-O-W-T-H-E-R.
28:30He would have left Eaton around 1953, four.
28:35I've got one Crowther, two left here, and stick to the one.
28:40No other D Crowther.
28:42He's the only one.
28:45It was out of our time period, and it wasn't our man.
28:49If this man had gone to Eaton, I knew for a fact he hadn't gone as Derek Crowther.
28:55Had he revealed a truth now about his real life?
28:58Could Derek Crowther be a stolen identity?
29:08This is the birth certificate for Derek Crowther.
29:13It says here his father was a railway carriage cleaner.
29:17My father originally was with a baker's chef at the back of the palace.
29:23Oh, really?
29:24I don't know how I got to eat all that.
29:25This man, Derek Crowther, was born on 5 July 1936, 18 months after Lord Lucan.
29:34It's not spot on, but it's close.
29:37Not a noticeable age gap as you get older.
29:41So, I delve deeper into this man's supposed identity.
29:451998, here he is going Derek Crowther to Adam Cadman.
29:51Next, 2008, Adam Cadman to Christopher Newman.
29:55He reapplies, and this time, Christopher Newman to Christopher Bell.
30:02Whoever this man is, he went to the bother of changing his name by law a minimum of four times.
30:09Why would you do that?
30:10You were quite cross when you squared up to him.
30:26Well, you would be angry, wouldn't you?
30:30And, yeah, I was fired up.
30:32Just sitting there like Lord Mupp.
30:36And I was just trying to get my point across that everything that he tells other people is just lies.
30:42I think you did piss him off quite a bit.
30:44Yeah, good.
30:44Yeah, I did piss him off.
30:47Well, I don't give a monkeys.
30:57You know, he's had all these name changes.
30:59It's all so bizarre.
31:00It would just be good to hear his version.
31:04How would you feel if I went in and tried to talk to him?
31:06I mean, he might open up to you.
31:11I mean, to be fair, I didn't even give him a chance.
31:16The way that I come across is probably not ideal at this particular moment.
31:21If you can do the softly, softly approach, then go for it.
31:26We're all good for sound and we're all ready and running.
31:47All right.
31:49So you've come all the way from England to be here?
31:53Yeah.
31:54Oh, okay.
31:56All the way from London.
31:58All the way from...
31:58How is London these days?
32:02Rainy.
32:04Cold.
32:06Thinking about going back to visit, but, you know,
32:10finances today aren't what they used to be.
32:20There's been a lot of confusion about your identity.
32:24Big questions about who you are.
32:26So who are you?
32:28Well, on the birth certificate, it says Derek Bell Crowther.
32:35I think that's...
32:37You think?
32:38Something like that.
32:40Yeah.
32:40Yeah.
32:41It does do.
32:42It's interesting that you say it's on my birth certificate.
32:45That's like slightly removing it from you.
32:46So where did you grow up?
32:48So where did you grow up?
32:49Uh...
32:50Oh, around...
32:52Around London.
32:56Do you remember where?
32:59Oh, God.
33:03Different places.
33:04When I was here last time, I said to you, you seem very educated.
33:09Yes, I went to schools, but I was also thrown out.
33:14You don't remember what you said to me then?
33:19No, well, that was then.
33:21This is now.
33:22I know.
33:22In this moment.
33:23Exactly.
33:24But then you said to me that you went to Eton.
33:26Yeah, well, I know, and I was thrown out.
33:30Oh, so you...
33:31Did you go to Eton?
33:33Yeah, I was sent there.
33:35Part of the family was English aristocracy, also that, you know?
33:44Buckingham Palace and...
33:46But did you actually have a connection with the palace, your father?
33:51So you said that he was a baker.
33:52Look, as much as I knew, as much as I mean...
33:58I mean, there was such a chaos and confusion.
34:04But do you see why, um, talking about having grown up in the palace,
34:08knowing Princess Margaret,
34:10because no-one can actually get to the bottom of that,
34:13it ends up making people feel quite uncomfortable about it.
34:17Not helped by the fact that some people know you by different names.
34:20Oh.
34:24Can you tell us, like, what's with all the name changes,
34:26what that's about?
34:28Well, just different energies, different...
34:32You take on different names.
34:35Birthless, deathless, timeless, ageless.
34:38I am you, and you are me, and that's it.
34:40And it's, like, a great mystery.
34:42But, um, I think what would be good to clarify here
34:48is you're not known as Derek, is that right?
34:51Well, no, I mean, it's, like, um...
34:55Adam Cadman.
34:57Then there was Christopher Newman.
34:59New Man.
35:01The New Man.
35:04People said, oh, you're this, you're that,
35:06and I said, oh, OK.
35:08And Christopher Bell.
35:10I, look...
35:12I...
35:14You see, this is where I get to a place of annoyance.
35:20Because, basically, I couldn't give a damn.
35:22But when Neil's put it to you
35:26that you've been on the run for over 40 years,
35:29you have said to him, well, you could say that.
35:31I haven't been on the run for 40 years.
35:34I've been trying to find reasonable places to live,
35:39companions and friends, and...
35:41The reason why I think partly it's become so hard to work out
35:44whether or not you're Lord Lucan...
35:46Look, I do not know who the hell Lord Lucan is, OK?
35:53Now, if you've finished,
35:55I'm getting bored with this interview.
35:58Can I just ask you one thing, which I think is quite important?
36:01Yes.
36:01Is that the awful tragedy of this for Neil,
36:04he believes that you're Lord Lucan,
36:06and I know that you've very strongly said you're not,
36:08but Neil is tortured by not knowing the answer to that.
36:13So I wonder if there's a Buddhist way
36:15that Neil could find some healing now.
36:17Are you aware that the world is about to go through
36:22a tremendous collapse, the whole human race?
36:27Millions of years of evolution is about to terminate.
36:32All of you.
36:33That was rather dystopian,
36:37but he is ruthless sometimes in his compassion
36:40and has got to a place where he's maybe not as outwardly loving kindness
36:45as you'd ordinarily expect from...
36:49..someone like him.
36:53You know, you're a Buddhist in...
36:55I'm not a fucking Buddhist.
36:57I'm not anything.
36:58Are you not? OK. Sorry.
36:59My mistake.
37:02I...um...
37:03For Neil, I would say that I can only imagine
37:06the pain that this has brought.
37:10It's not fair at all.
37:12And I would also ask the question,
37:14if finally he found the man that did it,
37:17would it truly heal that wound?
37:21Neil, I pray that you find peace.
37:23Where you are, Neil, I can assure you,
37:28I am not that man.
37:30Never have been, never will be.
37:35I was born Derek Crowther.
37:39My mother, Lady Winifred Ramos,
37:42whose father got a newspaper going called The Daily Mirror.
37:47I worked at a toy store called Hamley's in Regent Street.
37:55I would go in and do shop window display.
37:58Do you remember when it was that you left London?
38:01In 1966.
38:03And what was it that made you leave?
38:05I had a dream.
38:09I travelled to Toronto, Canada.
38:12I got involved with the ballet.
38:14We opened up the Global Village Theatre Company.
38:17And we put on a show called Fassade.
38:20And we were all female impersonators.
38:23Very good at what we did.
38:28I met Timothy Leary, experimenting with LSD.
38:33Hippies were arriving.
38:34And Woodstock.
38:35Then I met Kalu Rinpoche,
38:43one of the first great Tibetan masters.
38:45I was acknowledged as a holy man.
38:50We were all travelling through India,
38:53and His Holiness of Dalai Lama was invited.
38:56And I was recognised as his Western Incarnation.
39:03May you be well and happy and free from suffering.
39:08Thank you, all of you here.
39:12It's finished.
39:14Who are you?
39:32I started looking into all of the old man's claims.
39:43Nothing checked out.
39:45Nothing.
39:46Except for one.
39:48We opened up the Global Village Theatre Company.
39:52And we put on a show called Fassade.
39:54I found a reference to this production.
39:58Fassade.
39:58And the director was still alive.
40:03So I called him up.
40:05All the newspapers at the time,
40:07most of the reviews were very favourable.
40:10There was a lot of grass being smoked.
40:13Right.
40:14And I told him that I was trying to find somebody
40:16who'd performed in his play.
40:18I know him as Derek Crowder.
40:21I've never ever heard of a Derek Crowder.
40:24Right.
40:25Now I'm hoping you can see this, Michael.
40:27Well, that's the man we're talking about.
40:30Is that, uh...
40:32That's Peter.
40:35That's Peter Jason.
40:39I can see it by the eyes and the mouth.
40:42And, yeah, his ears slightly stick out.
40:45So you're absolutely sure?
40:47Yeah, that's Peter.
40:48And his stage name was Jenny Romaine.
40:51The director sent photos.
41:04He was very musical.
41:06He was a comedy queen.
41:08Peter and I weren't friends per se.
41:13He was in the show.
41:15He was very interested in spirituality,
41:18Buddhism,
41:20Theosophy.
41:21So, when exactly did you put this performance on?
41:31During the runner facade,
41:33the big news of the day was the moon launch.
41:36We always were in awe that the night
41:42when man landed on the moon.
41:45Okay, Neil, we can see you coming down the ladder now.
41:48We thought we would be empty
41:50because everybody would be glued to their TVs.
41:54You're setting up the flag now.
41:56And we were packed.
41:57It was an exciting time.
42:04July 1969.
42:08Five years before the murder.
42:13If he was on stage in Canada in 1969,
42:18how could he be Lord Lucan?
42:25Tricky.
42:27Yeah.
42:44So, the director of the production for Saad,
42:49he remembers the production really well,
42:52but he'd never heard of Derek Crowther.
42:53When he saw a picture of the old man...
42:58Oh, yes, yeah.
43:00He said,
43:01Well, no, no, I do know him,
43:02but that's not Derek.
43:04That's Peter.
43:06Peter Jason.
43:10Oh, brilliant.
43:12He's Peter Jason,
43:13but as a woman called Jenny Romaine.
43:16A woman?
43:21Well, he's a drag queen.
43:22He was in a production in 1969,
43:25before the murder.
43:27So, that's hard to explain away.
43:30So, show you a picture.
43:31No.
43:34What about the scar on his nose?
43:37Telling me that Derek Crowther's got a scar on his nose
43:40isn't in exactly the same place as Lord Lucan's medical records.
43:46It's impossible.
43:49I think you should look at the picture.
43:50Oh, brilliant.
43:58What a load of bullshit.
44:00So, what you're saying now is,
44:03we're all wrong then.
44:05Basically.
44:06So, I've wasted 17 years of my life.
44:09Basically.
44:10I don't think you've wasted them.
44:11Well, looking at it this way, I do.
44:13I don't think so.
44:14Well, I do.
44:15You're trying to tell me I've got it wrong.
44:18It's not Lucan.
44:19Fine.
44:23That's the way it is.
44:25That's how it'll have to end.
44:28Well, no, actually, no.
44:30What do you mean it's ended like this?
44:31It hasn't ended, has it?
44:44Hey, hey.
44:45Here you go.
44:47We need to have a very honest chat about these, don't we?
44:53When I first saw this picture,
44:56I didn't even know which one I was looking at.
44:58When you first look at it, yes.
45:00But this man here says,
45:03I was in this drag act in Toronto in 1969.
45:07And I've spoken to Michael Oscars, who's in his late 70s, but he's with it, and he's kind of very adamant that this man he knew in 1969 is this man, Derek Crowther in Australia.
45:20Lord Lucan can't be in two places, can he?
45:22He's supposed to be playing Baccarat in the casino tables of London in 1969.
45:26OK, he's got it wrong.
45:27Derek Crowther, Derek Crowther, Lucan.
45:34He has stolen that man's identity.
45:39If you're going to go on the run for 50 years, you're going to go on the run as Lord Lucan, do you?
45:47They've got three facial recognition companies saying it's Lucan.
45:50But it can get it wrong.
45:58That is somebody that told me that my mum was a disturbed person.
46:02Only Lucan would know that.
46:05What if I am Lord Lucan?
46:06What the fuck are you going to do about it?
46:08Would Derek Crowther say that?
46:11No.
46:12Where does that put John Hankins then?
46:14He's wrong.
46:15He's wrong, is he?
46:16John's not wrong.
46:17John just might be mistaken.
46:23Look, I know you want it to be him.
46:26And I understand completely why.
46:29But I think we've got it wrong.
46:45I think it's going to rain, Lucan.
46:47This was my Everest.
46:59I made it past base camp but didn't get to the summit.
47:02People keep telling me that I should move away from the murder.
47:14You.
47:17Kim.
47:17I'm trying to prove that her life is worth more than that.
47:25And I'm the one that's been put on the journey to do it.
47:30When nobody's put me there, I've decided to do it myself.
47:34I don't know why.
47:36Maybe it's because I didn't know her.
47:38Do you think?
47:43You've done so much for her, though.
47:47Haven't you?
47:47You should feel good about that.
47:53I don't know.
47:54Do you think you've failed your mum if you don't find her murderer?
48:05In a way.
48:06It's such a strain on your mental health, on your relationships.
48:18Sandra, would she want that?
48:22No.
48:33You've put so much into finding your real mother's killer.
48:38But do you ever think that actually this might all be a lot more about your adoptive mother?
48:46Well, she was the one that started going off, wasn't she?
48:49Bless her.
48:51Your adoptive mother, Audrey, she was the one who showed you what a mother is.
48:58Yeah.
49:04Well, she was my mother.
49:06For...
49:08Yeah, 40 years.
49:17That's a lovely picture.
49:19Did she spoil you?
49:21Yes.
49:22Best apple crumble ever.
49:25To you, that's what a mother is, and you've lost her.
49:29I've lost two.
49:33You honestly have done something so extraordinary
49:36in their memory, in their memory.
49:39I suppose so.
49:41I haven't looked at it like that, do I?
49:42I love my mum.
49:49What do you think she'd say to you?
49:54She would have said, you've done your bit, you've got as far as you can, leave it alone.
50:02Do you think it would be good for you to let it go now?
50:05Yes.
50:07At the moment, I'm not there, to be honest with you.
50:14But if you got to the realisation that that old man wasn't Lucan?
50:21How am I going to get to that?
50:23Okay, but if you do, would you keep looking?
50:26No.
50:32Every day for 17 years, I mean, that's not good, is it?
50:41Well, how old would Lucan be now?
50:43He's 89.
50:46It's something that needs to stop.
50:51At some stage.
50:52Yeah.
50:56All right, so my, this is what I think, okay, to end the programme.
51:02I think the man in Australia is Lord Lucan,
51:08who's stolen Derek Crowther's identity.
51:12Where's Derek Crowther, the real one?
51:18That will come in part two.
51:20Oh, I haven't seen you laugh like that for ages.
51:31Well, this is meant to be a serious programme.
51:33Um...
51:35menjadi tone creativity in the world.
51:36Oh, so my, this is what I think, palabras of old can be a hard time.
51:44Oh, I haven't turned that up.
51:49I actually never gave up on any zigons.
51:52I haven't seen you laugh like that.
51:54So my gibbe has an opera.
51:58CHOIR SINGS
52:28CHOIR SINGS
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