- 2 days ago
The Hollywood Reporter's Scott Feinberg sat down with Barry Jenkins, James Laxton, Joi McMillon and Thuso Mbedu to discuss their series 'Underground Railroad' in a THR Q&A powered by Vision Media.
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00:00Hi, everyone, and thank you for joining us for THR Presents the Underground Railroad.
00:09It is great to have with us the showrunner and director, Barry Jenkins, the cinematographer,
00:14James Laxton, the editor, Joy McMillan, and the star, Tuso Mbeidu.
00:18And we are really thrilled that you made the time.
00:22And I just want to thank you.
00:24I had the treat of seeing this entire series over three days and actually on a big screen.
00:32And then I went back and watched chunks on on the small screen as well.
00:36And it's just both places really outstanding.
00:39And we'll talk about the, you know, all of that.
00:43But, Barry, I guess let's start at the beginning, if we can.
00:47I understand that the Underground Railroad, just the idea of it was something that intrigued
00:52you as even a kid.
00:54And then you were aware of Colson Whitehead's book before, you know, the rest of us, even
01:02before it was out.
01:03So just what's what's at the root of your interest in the Underground Railroad and particularly
01:08Colson's work?
01:10Yeah, I had, you know, once I started making movies, I had always I knew I always wanted
01:15to make something that dealt with the story of my ancestors.
01:19I dealt with the story of the institution of American slavery.
01:23And and yeah, when I was a kid and I first heard the words Underground Railroad, I imagined
01:28Black people on trains underground.
01:30I mean, I think even imagine is the wrong word.
01:33My grandfather was a longshoreman and I would see him put on his hard hat and his steel toe
01:37boots and go to work.
01:38And so when I heard the words Underground Railroad, I just saw men like him building these tunnels
01:43and these trains underground.
01:44And I was familiar with Colson ever since his first novel, The Intuitionist, which builds
01:50this Jedi like world, you know, out of elevator inspectors in a fictional New York City.
01:55And so when I heard he had written a book where the conceit of the Underground Railroad was
01:59that it was an actual network of trains underground right away.
02:03I thought, oh, I just have to I have to get a hold of this.
02:06And so, yeah, I read the book before Moonlight even premiered.
02:09I tell you, right, like right around the same time, a few weeks before we premiered, I sent
02:13Colson a link and he loved the film and we were off off to the races.
02:17So the idea of working in long form for you, Barry, is this I guess I'm curious, was it more
02:25exciting or scary to because I mean, you're here.
02:28Here you are coming off of Moonlight, which was one of you've said three things that you
02:33really wanted to do your tell your own sort of story of your where you came from, then
02:37Beale Street, you know, adapt James Baldwin.
02:40And then this was going to be the third of the kind of goals.
02:44But to do it in a long form where it's is it like making 10 separate feature films or
02:51is it can you describe it in a different you know, what is it like?
02:54No, it wasn't like making 10 separate feature films.
02:57We definitely wanted to make a TV show.
02:59You know, we want it to be episodic, especially because the book itself is episodic in nature.
03:04But we didn't want to bend the format of television to our whims.
03:09You know, we wanted to lean into the idea of creating a television show.
03:13I had staff in the writers room of The Leftovers season two with Damon Lindelof, got to see how
03:19he worked. And it didn't seem like it was going to be daunting because I was going to
03:24approach it the way I'd seen Damon approach the making of that show.
03:28What I didn't expect was I thought we would have to plan out every single thing.
03:33You know, it's 116 days.
03:34We'd have to prep and know exactly what we're doing every single day.
03:38Once we got into the process, I realized it was actually more interesting to have it be
03:43more elastic. And so, you know, both myself and James and then watching Tussauds become
03:48the character, we realized in the field, like around day 25, oh, we can actually create
03:53new story based on what's happening in front of the camera.
03:56And once we realized that, the whole thing just kind of opened up.
04:01In hindsight, is there any way it ever could have been a feature film?
04:05It seems like it would be pretty crazy.
04:06I think absolutely. For me, at least, I think in order to make the show the way that we
04:12wanted to make it, you know, where the hard images or the dark images could have a certain
04:19veracity, but then also have the light images have the same kind of veracity as well.
04:24And to earn them over the course, of course, evolution, I don't think that would have been
04:29possible in a feature film to me in order to do the things that we were attempting to do
04:33it would have to be a television show. So Joy and James, obviously, you guys have
04:38great history with Barry, too. So I think internationally, this is your, your first kind
04:45of big coming out. And I know, though, that in South Africa, you really made a name for
04:51yourself there. And I guess I just wonder for people who are now curious to know everything
04:55about you, can you tell us a little bit about your journey to this project? And then also how
05:00you heard that this, this particular project was out there even?
05:05Oh, I don't know. I think I started my professional career in 2014, after having studied in university.
05:13I did drama in university. And then I'd given myself about six years to work in South Africa,
05:21save up and make my way to America and see, you know, what would come of it. And so top of 2019,
05:26I was able to save up enough money to be here for about two and a half months. I'd auditioned for
05:34the Underground Railroad in November 2018. But I didn't think anything of it. I didn't think, you
05:39know, because I got the brief, I was in New York for the International Emmys. I, my mind was telling
05:47me, you don't even have the accent, you don't know what's happening. It's your first US audition,
05:51do it, you know, do your best, but with the hopes that you would be in the archives for future
05:57projects, not necessarily for this one. And so when I came at the top of 2019, I was taking a bunch of
06:03meetings with studio executives and casting directors. And I was able to get into a work
06:08session with Francine Maisler, who is the casting director for the show. We played with the material,
06:14it was a lot of fun. And again, for me, it was about learning, doing my best and just having fun with it.
06:20And then that evening, I was told that it's a callback and that Barry would like to meet me the
06:25next day. Had a, had the meeting with Barry, very chilled, nothing hectic, just like a conversation
06:32about anything and everything. He was a super cool person. And again, it's like, you know, people are
06:38going, oh, it's Barry Jenkins. And I'm just like, I'm here to learn. I'm here to grow. I'm here, you
06:43know, to make the most of the opportunity. And then eventually, you know, in that conversation with
06:48Barry, I heard that the show is based on a book. And so in the, like the two weeks between meeting
06:53Barry and the test shoot, I read the book like twice, you know, in preparation for the final test
06:59shoot. And in the work session itself with Barry, good Lordy, he worked me, he worked me, he stretched
07:07me, we did the scenes over and over and over and over again to the point where, again, my contact lens
07:13flipped in on itself. And I was just like, I hope they don't want anything more from
07:18me. But yeah, that's, I think the shortened version of my story to the underground role.
07:24Well, thank you. And Barry, can I ask, I'm sure, you know, a ton of people wanted this part.
07:31How, what, what, what was it about too, so that made you decide she was the woman for the job?
07:37Part of it was when her contact flipped over, she kept going until I knew she had an inner strength.
07:47A little bit of trivia, that was while Bill Street was in release. So Stefan James actually
07:51was the scene partner for that callback. You know, it came down to Tuso and another young
07:59woman who's going to be a major star very soon. And I knew that the show, one at the beginning
08:07of the series, the character can't really express herself through voice. It's got to be through eye
08:12contact, through posture. And there were just certain things that Tuso did in this working and
08:18reworking and the callback that made it very clear she could communicate that way. But also too, she
08:22understood the character. And it's 116 days, Scott. And 116 days, not of doing a half a page this day,
08:30two pages that day, of like six, seven pages of really dense material every day. And I just felt
08:37that she had the inner strength to get through the journey, but also too, to be able to calibrate
08:42from this scene to that, where the character needed to go next.
08:47And just a follow-up about the wonderful ensemble that you surrounded her with.
08:52We, people will in the States certainly know Joel Edgerton and Willie Rabe and a handful of folks,
08:59Will Poulter. I'd love anything you want to say about them, but also I was, I think the performer
09:06who haunts me the most is actually 11-year-old Chase Dillon, who is just, has such a screen presence.
09:13And I just wonder where, you know, anything you can share about him as well.
09:18Yeah, it was the same thing. We actually, I'm pretty sure Tussauds' callback was the same day.
09:24It was, it was.
09:25You know, when we cast these parts, it's a, it's a meritocracy. I mean, you can be,
09:32I don't care where you are or who you are. If you show me that you were the character,
09:35then you were the character. And Chase's tape came in and, you know, he looks like this,
09:41because he was, he was nine when he auditioned and he was 10 when we filmed. So he liked this
09:46nine-year-old, nine going on 91, Chase Dillon. And, and it was really cool. I'm glad you mentioned
09:53Joel, because when you're working with a child actor, the scene partner with that child is helping
09:59you, is helping you guide them. And I think the fact that Joel is also a director really helped
10:04in that case. But Chase was awesome. I mean, talking about Chase and Tussauds, I was actually
10:09mad at her because, you know, I would look up on social media and on the weekends, they'd be like
10:14hanging out bowling and playing her, Joel and Chase. And, and I realized now that was a way of
10:21demystifying the process for him and getting him comfortable. And it was really wonderful watching
10:28James and everyone else kind of adjust the process, you know, so that we could put Chase in positions
10:33to be the best Homer that he could be. I mean, Scott, I, that character is, man, that was,
10:39I wanted to punch Coulson in the face many times for forcing us to deal with that character. But,
10:45but yeah, I think Chase did a great job with him. Great job. Yeah. I am about to come to you,
10:52James and Joy, please forgive me. I just have one more setup question before we do that.
10:57Always wait to listen to. So I've got to ask, this, this directed to both Barry and
11:03too. So when you're doing a feature film, I understand it's very rarely shot in sequence,
11:10but how, how does it work now when you're doing a limited series of this length and you're
11:15jumping between time periods and locations? Are you able to even within an episode do things
11:21in sequence or, or just how does that work? No, we couldn't. And, you know, I was thinking
11:24about this. I used to think that this was a limitation, James, but I think it actually was a,
11:28was a blessing because I think that because we, because it's a road show, you know, we would have
11:34locations, we would try to amortize locations. So I think the order we shot in was South Carolina,
11:40Georgia, Mabel, the two Indianas, then North Carolina, then all the Tennessee work. And we
11:46also did everything underground at the beginning, all the stuff with the trains and the tunnels.
11:50What was really beautiful about that was there was only so much out of sequence, sequence we could
11:56film because we didn't have access to all the actors. So typically any actor who comes through
12:01a set, you film all their work. I think because we didn't have that luxury, we could build, we could
12:07discover things and then build it into the narrative later. So there's a great scene between Joel and
12:12Megan Boone, Megan Boone's an old friend of James and me, James and Joy. She went to college with us
12:17and she did a great, great job in the show. She has this wonderful scene with Joel, but in that scene,
12:23they're standing in the, in the dorm, Joel finds Cora's okra seeds. And it was the first episode we
12:31shot and the importance of the okra grew as we made the show. And I realized, oh shit, I've got to cut
12:37that scene. It's such great work, but I got to cut that scene because he got to the seeds too early.
12:43And so I think because of that, it was actually really cool. So we shot the episodes,
12:48not in sequence, but we do a whole episode out of sequence, just, you know, if the James wanted
12:54the light to be a certain way or whatnot, but then we have to wait to get to the next state.
12:59And that created this really beautiful thing where as a showrunner, we could discover things in one
13:03state and whether that state came before or after in the order of the show, we would go in and
13:08reconfigure. It was really awesome. And Tuso is that, I mean, I, again, I, I recognize that most
13:15projects are done out of sequence, but when you're talking about this large of a canvas and you're in
13:21all of it, how do you, do you have to kind of, kind of chart things out or something to remember
13:28exactly? Like, how do you, I just, I can't imagine. A hundred percent. I've never done a feature
13:34film before, so I've never shot in sequence before. I've always done episodic dramas. And
13:41so it really is about a case for me whereby, cause you have the advanced schedule and you have an idea
13:47of how are you going to shoot. So in my preparation, I sit with the, with the scripts, I sit with the
13:52scenes that we would shoot. And I write down like everything, like every, like life-changing
14:00moment or events that happened to Cora in summary form. So that let's say we're shooting episode
14:06eight, I would have everything from episode one up until episode eight that happened to her, that
14:11would have shifted her mentally, emotionally, physically. Um, and then the scene. So I'm going
14:16just reading the summary. I understand what it is that I'm getting into as I step into this moment,
14:21but then even being on set, Barry would do that where he would be a reminder of where, where it is
14:26that she has come from as we step into this next moment.
14:30Scott, Scott, I want to call something out real quick because the, uh, the, the end of the first Indiana episode where Cora and Cease were doing the dance, we had to film that very early because that, that, that location, that set was a part of where all the trends were. So we had to film that maybe like day 18. And I didn't realize how emotional it was going to be. I like, I just, I just dashed it off on the weekend that we came in because James and I were like, do something with this platter.
14:56So we do the scene and Aaron and Tussauds are just bawling. And I'm like, man, that was, that was really good. And then later when we're in Tennessee and, uh, and Ridgway's giving his speech, I was like, how, how do we provoke Cora? How do I provoke Tussauds, unfortunately?
15:14And that was where the line plucked those blue eyes right out of his head. It just popped, it just popped into my head. And I think if we didn't do it in that order, because that scene was an outlier, her and Cesar, uh, dance, we should have filmed that after Tennessee, but because we filmed it before, I was like, oh, that's how I do it. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry, mama. I'm sorry.
15:35It's the work that happens, but yeah, because there are moments where, you know, um, I, it was like, it's the, the one scene where Cora sees the, uh, the Tennessee, Indiana station for the, for the first time where Royal and them bring her in.
15:52And when I watched it physically, I was like, it's not where I would have, uh, wanted to be had we shot it. I would have been completely different, but because we shot it so early, but people don't have to know.
16:10I want to divulge another, um, secret of yours, your guys that I think it was really creative and I it's out there. It's not really a secret. Cause it was, I know it's been discussed, but James,
16:21you guys essentially, I mean, Cora's going through, I think five States during her journey, but you guys shot almost exclusively, if not exclusively in Georgia. Right. So you have to figure out how do you visually differentiate between these States. And James, I think you came up with some very creative ways of, of doing that. Right. Within the camera.
16:45I hope so though. Um, I hope that's true. Yeah. I don't know. You know, I think it's, you know, like anything that Barry and I and we all do together, we try to make creative choices that reflect the characters that we're telling the story about. So Cora's on our journey. So therefore the camera needs to be as well. Um, you know, the way we did it in multiple ways, but for, for camera wise, specifically, we created different sort of color palettes that we call let's camera, which is a technical term, but you know, it's a, it's a way to sort of differentiate how colors interact with our
17:15cameras technically. So there's certain colors in, in Indiana autumn that are emphasized in a certain way. That's different from South Carolina, let's say. And all that's an effort, of course, just to sort of be, be tied into the narrative journey that Cora is on, of course. Um, but yeah, it was all across the board. I remember for, I think for our Tennessee episode, we must've bought all the black mulch in the history, in the entire country, probably to cover up that red Georgia earth, for example. So, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't just me.
17:45He was our, biodegradable, biodegradable, biodegradable, biodegradable, that's true. That's true. No, it did just fine naturally as well. But, but, you know, the whole, the whole sort of process of our department, cautioning department, and everyone involved, you know, took a, took a choice throughout the, the, the narrative structure to make sure that we were sort of reflecting course journey for sure.
18:05And I think, I think something that we haven't mentioned you, you and Mark Freeberg actually scouted, I mean, we filmed entirely in the state of Georgia, but James and Mark Freeberg, our production designer,
18:15they flew all over upstate New York, um, all over, um, uh, Ohio as well. Yeah. Ohio. Yeah. Like many different places. Wow. Yeah. And that was obviously just to sort of like, you know, what, while we didn't end up shooting
18:27the show there, but it massively informed all kinds of creative choices that we then applied to Georgia. So, you know, going on those trips early on to sort of talk
18:35about where core in, in the story might end up, uh, end up going, you know, we took a lot of that experience
18:41and applied it to sort of some, some, some, you know, more specific choices in the state of Georgia, of course.
18:48Well, also, I want to say, as in all of Barry's prior projects, which you guys have worked together on, there are just some
18:54breathtaking, uh, shots. And I mean, there's, I'm thinking about the, uh, as the, as the, um, village is burning and,
19:03and the young girl, I believe Grace is fleeing and your camera pulls up and you see the, right,
19:10the whole community and stuff like that. I mean, there are just some that, that have really stuck
19:14with me. And I wonder for you, what was the kind of one where you felt you were biting off the most
19:21and are happiest with kind of how it came out or are there are some, there are some big, uh, swings
19:26here, it seems to me. Yeah. You know, um, I think we, we, there's some big emotional swings.
19:34And so I think we, we try to hit as hard as the story needs us to hit. I think that's something
19:39we're just trying to sort of be reflective in, um, you know, sure. There's some, there's some
19:44creative ones or technical ones rather that are challenging that I'm sure no one really cares to
19:48hear about. But for me, emotionally, I would say one, one thing I'm the most excited about and happy
19:52with was in, um, in the scene just after the corn chucking scene where the Claire de Lune song was
19:58playing. You know, that was a, that was the scene that I just, I just, I still remember shooting it
20:02today and how emotionally, uh, that resonated with, uh, with me filming it. And I think, you know,
20:08hopefully, hopefully the, the, the sort of, I don't know, the emotions are a big spectrum in that
20:14scene, but they hopefully resonate on, on camera as much as they did off camera.
20:17Well, and I, I know you've also spoken about the Valentine farm, uh, scenes where, um, that you,
20:24you, you, I think in terms of pacing and things, uh, uh, approach that I'm sure I know with that
20:32would be involved, a discussion probably with Barry, but just, uh, like what talk about why were those,
20:37uh, you know, why that, why that kind of, um, really stood out as you've looked, you know,
20:44when, when you were doing this about how you wanted to be very deliberate about the way you
20:48shot Valentine farm. Yeah. I mean, how long do we have? Um, you know, I think, I think, uh, I think
20:56that portion of the show is a culmination of, of the journey. And so there's a lot packed into that,
21:04those, those two episodes that, you know, we were trying to be sensitive to and reference and,
21:09and touch upon visually, uh, cause it's all in there. There's, there's the, the violent aspects
21:14of things that happen in Indiana winter, but there's also the romance as well. There's the
21:19idea of community, which is a massive topic within the story as well. So, you know, I, I, it's hard
21:24to, to, I mean, you know, I'd have to get into it for quite a while to touch on each of those,
21:28but I think for us, it was about sort of, I can think about those big sweeping cameras in the
21:33opening of, of Indiana autumn, for example, and that thing was for, uh, you know, for many reasons
21:38to touch on the communal aspect of those episodes. Um, but I can think about those scenes between
21:44Cora and Royal as well, and being as intimate as, as possible, because it just felt like that,
21:49that relationship was so emotionally, there's a real huge bond between those, those, those characters
21:53and those people. Um, so I think, I just think it was the culmination of all the things that we've
21:59just gone through in the last series of episodes, kind of coming to, to, to feel as, as strongly as
22:04we possibly could. Yeah. Um, Joy, I was curious, are you, sometimes I know people will be, um,
22:12editing during the shoot itself. Sometimes it all comes, I guess, at the end where, how does it work
22:18with you and Barry, or was this, uh, like, are you, are you, um, present throughout the whole shoot?
22:25Um, well, yeah, I was editing back in LA while they were shooting in Atlanta.
22:29Um, and I did get the chance to come down for about two to three weeks to check out the set and, um,
22:36work on episode or chapter one with Barry for a little bit. So that was the thing that was a little
22:42tricky about doing 10 episodes is like Barry had to think about post-production while in production.
22:48And that's not his favorite thing to do.
22:50Well, I guess the, the upside of, uh, of a limited series in terms of just one of the upsides is that
23:00you can actually really let things breathe. I think probably more and indulge in silences or,
23:08you know, just all of that. And I think you guys really, um, make the, the most of that. And I guess,
23:13was there a discussion, uh, just because it is such different pacing, it seems than a
23:18feature film. Did you guys at the beginning sit down and say, look, we want to make sure that we
23:23are leaving that room and each episode to, to, to have that, just to arrive at the pacing that you
23:31ended up with here. Yeah. I think one of the, the great things about knowing Barry and James for so
23:37long is, I feel like oftentimes when I get the footage, I can see what their intent is. And so
23:43one of the things that we had, I would say the luxury of doing is allowing what we were able to
23:49capture inform us on how tonally the episodes were going to shape out. And so one of the things that
23:56I think was great was that originally Tennessee was one long episode. Um, and having the ability to
24:04break that up into two episodes, I think was, you know, gave us, I would say the, um, we were
24:11basically handed the tools to allow that first episode, Tennessee, um, Exodus really breed. So when
24:19you're there with, you know, Cora and Jasper, it feels like this has been a long journey and this
24:26like apocalyptic, you know, area of Tennessee. And I think the punctuation of losing Jasper at the
24:33end really affects the audience, as opposed to if we were trying to fit that in to one long episode,
24:39I don't think it would have been as impactful, um, as it ended up being.
24:43And was it always a plan that you, you know, you guys have one episode that's like 20 minutes and
24:48then you have others that are over an hour. Was, is it just, was that sort of all mapped out before you
24:54started shooting Barry, or was that something that you found in the editing room?
24:59No, that was mapped out. We knew that the Fanny Briggs episode would be the shortest. There was
25:04another episode called Genesis that was going to be just as short, um, that we wrote and scouted for,
25:10we just didn't have the, didn't have the budget, uh, to film. So no, I, I, I knew that there was
25:15going to be this wave that the audience was, was riding and that the Fanny Briggs chapter was going
25:20to be a little bit of like an aperitif, um, just to sort of like, as James said, because when you get to
25:24Indiana, so much of the tone and the, and the language shifts and it was nice to give people
25:30just a little bit of a, you know, that, that course between courses, um, to make sure that
25:34the palate was cleansed. So yeah, that was intentional. Uh, Joy, there's these moments.
25:39I think, I think it's in every episode. I'm, I'm, I'm sort of doubting myself, but where you have,
25:44uh, a, almost like a portrait at some point of people either looking at the camera or just off
25:52the side of the camera, but like, was that a, also a pre-planned thing or this thing that I guess it
25:59was obviously was, it was, you guys shot them. So it had to be, but, but I mean, what, what's talk
26:03about the intent of, of those moments if you, if you would? Well, it's one of those things where,
26:09you know, if you look back in, um, if field street could talk, I remember when we were first
26:14getting this footage of them looking in the camera and being like, oh, I know there's going to be a
26:19place for this, but we haven't arrived there. And that's one of the things that, um, we allow the film
26:26or, you know, the series to speak to us. And every single one of those portraits, you know,
26:32found a home, um, and basically it was informing us and allowing us to see, um, these characters
26:40fully formed. And, you know, one of the ones that really, you know, I said to Barry, I'm like,
26:46it gets me every single time is, um, in Indiana winter. It's just, you know, right after that
26:51shucking scene and it's kind of like the calm before the storm, but just giving them that space,
26:58um, you know, for allowing the audience to really identify with these characters before we go to,
27:04you know, the second half of the show, I think really, really kind of, I think emphasize the
27:10point that we were trying to make with the series is that see these people, see where we come from
27:16and identify with, you know, their circumstances.
27:19So I guess, Barry, you've, you've said that this in some ways, and this is a quote I'd seen
27:27the hardest undertaking I've ever attempted in my creative life, close quote, particularly, I guess,
27:32wait, uh, quote, the need to tell the truth without being devoured by the barbarity of that
27:37truth, close quote. Um, for all of, I mean, for anyone, I, for, for people working on this,
27:44for viewers, this is, um, emotionally, it's gotta be a, a meat grinder, you know, just to be,
27:52and to be there for 116 days doing this. And I, I know that you guys took, made great efforts to
27:58be as, um, kind of, uh, there for everybody as possible. I read about a therapist being on set
28:06and all of that, but I guess at the end of the day for you, um, Barry and, and Tusa, you're there
28:11every day. Um, was it, what was that like for you? And were you able, is there a way when you're
28:18dealing with such heavy stuff to then in the way that sometimes I think people sometimes turn off
28:23the switch and when between setups or whatever, and they can kind of let loose. I mean, was that
28:30possible with, with a project like this? Um, I don't know that it was possible. Um, it wasn't a meat
28:37grinder. I mean, I mean, Tusa has been posting all these videos of, uh, of her, uh, cutting up on
28:43set. I mean, yeah, we had some fun. We kind of, we kind of had to, you know, we kind of had to,
28:48what does they laugh to keep from crying? Um, I think the thing for myself and James, especially
28:53was, you know, it had to be good. I mean, it had to be fucking great. It had to be. And so there's
28:59no room to, you know, and the margins are very thin. You're doing too many pages every day for
29:05too many consecutive days. And yet it's got to be great. It's got to be undeniable. And so there's
29:11no space to allow yourself to wallow, um, in the emotional burden because you got to figure out
29:19every day, there's going to be one of these scenes and we've got to figure out the best way to shoot it
29:25every single day. Um, and maybe I guess in a way, because that, that constant responsibility,
29:32that constant pressure was there and it had to be met every single day. I mean, there kind of wasn't,
29:38there wasn't room for me at least to be devoured by the material. Now I will say our therapist,
29:44guidance counselor, Kim White pulled me off set around, I was like day 33, day 34, you know, she
29:49pulled me off set and was like, yeah, you're, you're not going to be able to make it, you know, all this
29:54way without processing some of this stuff. Um, and I think I'm sure other people have similar
29:59experiences either with Ms. Kim or with other cast or crew members. Um, but as there was the
30:05responsibility to get the art itself, right. Was too great. And then responsibility to get the
30:10themes and the subject matter, right. Was equally as great. So that's why I don't know how any of us
30:16got through it, but I do know that working together was like the only way that we could all get through
30:21it. Yeah. So you want to add anything to that? Yeah. Uh, I, I share the same thoughts for me.
30:28It was really important to be able to differentiate between the story we're telling and who I am just
30:33emotionally, mentally, physically at all times. I had to be aware, um, when I was not within the world,
30:40I had to like separate myself as much as I could. Hence, you know, they get togethers, you know,
30:46the games nights and all that jazz. But again, on set, I never felt like I was alone. Um,
30:53Kim White would constantly check in on me. Um, even if I, I didn't reach out to her, you know,
30:59cast and crew were of great support. And even now just this little, I had a little moment right now
31:05where I started crying because I've been on a panel with Barry and Joy, but this is the first time
31:10being on a panel with James. And as he was talking, I actually, it took me back to being on set and it
31:16reminded me of how much of a great support he was to me. But yeah, um, a lot of people came through.
31:25It's your fault, James.
31:34You're going to make me cry too. So come on.
31:37But you know, but Scott, but again, I think is, it was, we were all just in there. I mean,
31:44we were just in there. It's like the world just, it's funny. I feel like I've been out of the world
31:50for like three years because making this thing, we were just like in this thing together. It was
31:56really important. We were in this thing together. And then we were all home alone, you know, except
32:01for those of us who were still somehow in this thing, trying to form it and shape it. And, and,
32:07and to, and to be honest, to both honor our ancestors, but also honor the commitment we had
32:11all made to this thing. I mean, it was so intense, Scott. I mean, it was, it was intense.
32:17I can't imagine. I can't imagine. And I guess I just want to ask you one more thing, Barry,
32:22and then I'll, I'll leave you guys. Uh, I, I, I wonder in your view, what is the best way to
32:31consume this great work that you've done? Is it watching one a night? Is it binging half and then
32:37the night, you know, do you have any thoughts on that? And then also what you hope, obviously you
32:41guys poured your heart and soul into this. Um, what is it that in a perfect world, a viewer
32:49leaves this experience of watching this thinking or doing differently than before?
32:56Yeah. I'll answer the second part first. It's the same thing with, with all the things that,
33:01that especially the three of us that we've made together, you know, I hope that the person starts
33:05the show and maybe they, they assume there's a distance between or removed between them and the
33:10main character. And in going through the journey, they can really see inside this character and
33:16understand how this character came to be, why the character was making the choices they're making
33:22and what the world is doing to either limit or, or combat or embolden those choices. Because I think
33:29in that part and understanding how the world around that character is shaping them, is informing them,
33:34is limiting them. Then we could see in our own lives, how the world is limiting us and what
33:39we're participating in that's limiting others. That's my, always my hope for anything that we
33:43make with this one in particular, you know, my hope was to recontextualize the way we view
33:48my ancestors. You know, we, we use this word enslaved, which refers to what was done to them
33:53and not to who they were or what they did. And I think the journey of Korra is a wonderful example,
33:58especially in all our interactions with all the characters, but especially with the character Grace
34:02and the character Mabel, again, who she was, what she did, you know, who her ancestors were,
34:07her immediate ancestors were, and what they did. That's my hope, just to see these folks,
34:12how people watch it. I think that depends on the viewer, man. That depends. I will say having made
34:18the show, I wouldn't watch 10 straight hours of this. But it's the same thing. When I read a novel,
34:24I'm not going to sit down and read. If I was reading the book, The Underground Railroad, I wouldn't read it over the
34:29course of one sitting. I maybe read it over two or three weeks. You know, and I will say there was
34:36talk about, oh, one a week, or maybe release of the chunks and this and that. You know, I do think
34:42that the first episode is very, very fact-based. It's a very fact-based experience of what the world of
34:50these characters would have been like. I think to have watched that episode and then for a week
34:56not understand that the world the show was building is bigger than just that place.
35:02That might have been difficult for some people. And so that's all I'll say about that. Joy James,
35:06what do y'all think? How should people watch the show?
35:08I think you said it right, that it's going to be unique to each individual. You know, I think that
35:15people need to take the chunk, the bite they can chew on for a while. And that's just going to be a
35:20really personal thing. That's my guess anyway. That's how I feel about it.
35:23Yeah. I think it's very similar to how we eat. You know, not everyone eats exactly the same.
35:32And so basically, you know, the portion control is in the hands of the viewer. Some people want
35:38to see three episodes a day. Some people only want to see a half episode a day. It's up to them.
35:43And I think as filmmakers, we can't dictate how you watch it. And I think having the freedom of
35:48being able to take it in at your own pace is one of the things that's really cool about,
35:53you know, being up on a streamer.
35:57Can I say one last thing about that? Because I would just say what's really cool about being
36:01a series on Amazon is that, you know, even if people aren't ready for right now,
36:05they can watch it eight months from now, a year from now. It's like, it might not be,
36:09they might not be ready in this very, very moment. So that's kind of great as well.
36:13Well, there's so many great things that we could continue talking about. Nick Bratel's
36:18score and all of that. And I, you know, unfortunately, we're out of time. But I just want to
36:24thank each of you for the great work and for taking the time to do this. And
36:29good luck with the rest of the rollout. I appreciate your time.
36:33Thank you very much, man. Appreciate you.
36:36What's all them books and DVDs in there, bro? Like you took down a couple blockbusters, man.
36:40Yeah, no, I mean, it was you.
36:43It got me through the pandemic.
36:46Scott was taking everything out of the back of Blockbuster before they shut down.
36:49Yeah, no, I mean, it was you.
36:51It got me through the pandemic.
36:53Scott was taking everything out of the back of Blockbuster before they shut down.
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