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00:00The arrest is the pivotal moment in any investigation.
00:07If you get it wrong, then it's game over.
00:17Police officer with a taser.
00:19Taser, taser, taser!
00:30Everything they're doing is on body-worn video.
00:42Police!
00:43Everything they're doing will be examined by defence lawyers.
00:47They can't make any mistakes.
00:51I haven't done anything wrong!
01:09It's nine days after one of Britain's biggest riots of summer 2024.
01:14Now, police prepare to arrest one of the ringleaders.
01:22The risk assessment would have been high.
01:25I would estimate six officers going to arrest him
01:29because we don't know what he would have been faced with.
01:31We don't know if he'd have known this was coming
01:34and prepared himself.
01:36So they're not going to take any chances.
01:38Thomas Burley had attacked officers
01:42as he tried to burn down a hotel.
01:45Now, police had found him.
01:48Hey, put your hands up for us.
01:49What's your name?
01:51Thomas Burley.
01:52He was involved in some of the worst of the violence.
01:56Thomas, your address is OK.
01:58I've found this order.
01:59I have to attend to cause danger, OK?
02:01If you don't ask anything, but it may.
02:02I'm out of the face.
02:03I don't make any questions.
02:04If you're late, I'm caught.
02:05I may be giving evidence.
02:06At the end of the day,
02:07this is somebody who's just tried to burn a hotel down
02:09and chucked weapons at officers.
02:11So that shows how hostile he is towards officers.
02:18Thomas Burley was a 27-year-old who was from nearby.
02:23He was from a place called Swinton in Rotherham in South Yorkshire.
02:26And he'd gone because he wanted to voice his opinion.
02:30That's what he told a probation officer.
02:33He was part of a group who smashed the lower windows of the Holiday Inn.
02:38And he was also part of a group who helped put fuel on a fire that was up against the fire door of the hotel.
02:51He climbed up onto railings.
02:53And he helped grab wood and place it into an industrial bin that was now burning up against that fire door.
03:00There were people on the other side of that fire door.
03:02They heard their fire alarms going off.
03:04They could smell the smoke.
03:06In evidence in court, they said that they feared they were going to die.
03:10The background to nine days of riots was a crime that broke the nation's heart.
03:35Some breaking news.
03:45Merseyside police are attending a major incident in Southport in which a number of people are reported seriously injured.
03:52A teenager carrying a large kitchen knife entered a Taylor Swift themed yoga and dance workshop for 6 to 11 year olds.
04:02It was the start of the school summer holidays.
04:0526 children were attending.
04:11Three girls are dead in Southport after being attacked by a man brandishing a knife.
04:17Elsie Dot Stankham, aged 7, Alice Da Silva Aguia, aged 9, and BB King, aged 6, died despite strenuous efforts by police and paramedics.
04:31Eight other children and two adults are being treated for serious injuries.
04:36The suspect was arrested at the scene.
04:38It was probably one of the most horrendous incidents in living memory.
04:44That then set off a chain of events in Southport.
04:49A false report spreads on social media that the killer is a Muslim asylum seeker.
04:55Within 24 hours, peaceful tributes to the victims give way to violence.
05:14Immigration is a genuine concern for the UK.
05:17And a lot of what we saw within those riots, I think, was motivated from the false information that was provided over social media about certain individuals involved.
05:29Police and government couldn't keep up with the speed of false stories circulating online.
05:36The use of social media and the false rumor mill that occurred did add a level of manipulation to people's mindsets.
05:44And, of course, what happened in that vacuum of information in the very short hours and the days following what happened in Southport,
05:51it gave them something to hold on to.
05:53It gave them somebody to blame.
05:56And as a result of that, they felt justified.
05:58They felt morally justified to behave in that way.
06:03In Southport, a crowd targets a local mosque, trapping nine people inside.
06:08We've seen protesters, a crowd here, throwing objects at a mosque that is just on the corner of this junction here.
06:16They've been clashing now violently with police, throwing objects at the police, clashing with officers in riot gear.
06:23And this really is a very tense situation.
06:25It's the start of two days of violence in Southport that will see 71 police officers injured.
06:31This is high quality media footage which shows clearly people's faces and those throwing rocks and things at the police.
06:42And it shows how a huge group of mainly young men are attacking far fewer police officers.
06:50The police officers have deployed shields.
06:52They've got riot vans there, but they've simply been pushed back.
06:57And we see that the crowd have attacked one vehicle and managed to set it on fire.
07:02Highly dangerous considering that vehicles are full of fuel in a crowded area.
07:07Walls or buildings have been attacked to take bricks down so those bricks can be used as weapons against the police.
07:16And we see officers being dragged away, have obviously been injured.
07:22And the sad thing is that many of these officers would have been involved in investigating the murder and may well have seen the awfulness of that crime and know they face being attacked.
07:33TV news shows rioters acting with little fear of the law, notably few arrests, but for good reason.
07:46Mostly during a riot, the first consideration is to try and safely contain the riots and that public disturbance where it is.
07:53Officers have the option and the ability to arrest people if they need to, but there are some significant issues involved in arresting somebody during a riot situation.
08:07Having to arrest an individual or a group of people takes important team members away from that front line.
08:13So you have 10 officers trying to deal with hundreds of people, they're utterly outnumbered.
08:19They simply have to retreat, but that just sends the wrong message out to the public who think the police are afraid.
08:26And of course it emboldens the rioters.
08:30In those circumstances, the main thing is to contain it.
08:34The moment an officer makes an arrest, that officer and several others may be taken out of the actual squad that are dealing with the riot as it is.
08:41Get back! Get back! Get back!
08:47Soon, fuelled by wrong information, riots will break out in 27 towns and cities.
09:01In Darlington, the dilemma for police is clear when confronted by one rioter throwing rocks.
09:07Here we see some excellent work between the CCTV operator and officers on the ground.
09:15Excuse me, I can help with that one.
09:17Car park St Augustine's Wade in Gladstone Street.
09:21A male with a body warmer, great body warmer, blue head overall, blue shorts, white socks, black trainers.
09:27He is a suspect who would be looking to arrest. Can you get a hold of him on camera?
09:32Get a hold of him on camera.
09:39You can see straight away he's not a very good throw because the brick has gone in a completely different direction, which instantly highlights just how reckless that is that's gone towards somebody's house.
09:48The police are almost stuck between a rock and a hard place themselves because if they fail to address his behaviour at this early moment when there aren't many people on the streets, they run the risk that his behaviour in fact motivates those around him to continue the same behaviour.
10:08If they do try and arrest this male though, they also run the risk that that causes motivation for those around him to then shadow the behaviour that he's doing.
10:23Go, go, go!
10:24So a decision has been made to arrest here.
10:34Get him out behind your buck! Get him out behind your bucky now!
10:37They've technically gone out and snatched him, they've arrested him.
10:41Get him out behind your buck! Get him out behind your bucky now!
10:45Some of those officers are controlling him on the ground.
10:47Of course, one minute this individual is happy to throw rocks at police and the next minute he's on the floor screaming.
10:59They're cuffs!
11:01He's cuffed, detained, some rigid cuffs are put on him and driving off anybody else who tries to interfere.
11:08Get him out behind your bucky now!
11:12Notice what's happened though, in arresting him, what's happened to the demeanour of the crowd.
11:17They've used this now as an excuse to get angrier, to aim that anger at the police.
11:22Get him out behind your bucky now! Get him out behind your bucky now!
11:27So the police are now in a difficult situation.
11:31Get him out behind your bucky now! Get him out behind your bucky now!
11:35After his arrest, the 18-year-old rioter is jailed for 18 months.
11:45But elsewhere, police face even bigger decisions.
11:49To make arrests, or save lives.
12:04As social media spreads false information about the Southport murders,
12:09Rotherham in South Yorkshire is the next big flashpoint.
12:16The police became aware of a protest and the potential counter-protest at the Holiday Inn.
12:21The hotel is housing more than 200 people seeking asylum in the UK.
12:32It was widely known that there were asylum seekers being housed there.
12:37There had been previous demonstrations in the past.
12:40Those demonstrations had largely gone off peacefully.
12:43A proportion that police in response was put in based on the intelligence that we received.
12:55Obviously, it spiralled to something way beyond that.
13:00And all of a sudden, there was a fairly swift influx of a lot of people, extra people there,
13:07that the intelligence didn't think was going to be there in some serious numbers.
13:16And there was then a sort of growing swell of anger.
13:21It was like what we say in the police, it was bubbling.
13:24It's like boiling water, it's starting to go.
13:27It's starting to sort of tip over the edge and then it quickly turned into the mob rule
13:31and the disgraceful violence and aggression that we saw.
13:49I arrived at about three o'clock.
13:52The police had just started to close the main road.
13:54The main road.
13:57You can smell a fire.
14:00You can smell the smoke.
14:02And the closer you get to the hotel, the more people are there.
14:07And there were just hundreds and hundreds of people.
14:15You could see the line of police surrounding the hotel.
14:19You could see the smashed windows.
14:21The noise was one of people shouting, people screaming, the police shouting.
14:31And the fire alarms going off as well inside the hotel.
14:37The fire alarms telling people that you have to leave.
14:40And obviously people weren't leaving.
14:41It was almost like a war zone.
14:51So that building goes up and you then got 200 to 250 people inside and those people die.
15:00Then we're looking at a mass murderer or we're looking at a team of mass murderers here who've done this.
15:05And to think about treating other human beings like that as well as our officers is absolutely important.
15:11They thought, well, no one likes the police anyway, so we're almost doing a public service here and attacking them.
15:17And that's the shocking part of it.
15:20A lot of people went in there as a way to gather weapons that would then be used against officers.
15:27There were police inside the hotel protecting sort of like an inner cordon effectively inside the property.
15:36People were inside that building worried for their lives.
15:40The staff in panic rooms scared about what was happening.
15:45And the police I'm sure had one priority in that and that was safety.
15:49Once again, rioters appear beyond the law.
15:54No one is being seen to be arrested.
15:57Very quickly, it became obvious that those officers in Rotherham were far outnumbered.
16:04And their own priorities would have very quickly changed to keep themselves safe,
16:09whilst trying at the same time to provide a layer of protection to those people within the hotel.
16:13The truth there was that they were just as vulnerable at times as those in the hotel.
16:21Those officers were in a very, very dangerous position.
16:27To be blunt, I was terrified some people were going to be killed, some of our officers were going to be killed,
16:32as well as the people in the hotel.
16:34They're in there.
16:36There were a number of police horses there and they were using the dogs as well to keep people away.
16:39And the horses were being sent through the crowds to try and disperse them.
16:45And when the horses came through, it was followed by bottles, stones, bricks, anything that people could grab, they threw.
16:57Outnumbered, the police use video to help arrest rioters.
17:02We've got the evidence gatherers who were there who were filming with high-pad cameras.
17:05The quality is incredible.
17:08You can pick someone's face up from hundreds of yards away.
17:12And they identify the people.
17:15When you have any mass disorder, the police can use drones with special pilots who can film.
17:23And we've got the police helicopter also gathering critical video evidence.
17:27But also you have these forward intelligence officers who have hand-held video equipment
17:31and they will video the whole crowd.
17:34So they get two things.
17:35They get the actual overall pattern of the disorder that you can then subsequently show to a court.
17:41But also they'll be capturing individual faces and looking for that moment.
17:45These officers will be surrounded by the riot police and protected by other officers with shields and battens.
17:53One police camera records a rioter in a red mask and the moment he gives himself away.
18:06He had a black puffer jacket on and this red scarf that he pulled up to cover the lower part of his face.
18:14But he was also filmed walking towards a police line, pulling down that mask and shouting towards the police.
18:22And again we see that in this evidence that is filmed by South Yorkshire police and presented as evidence.
18:32Some body worn video from some of the officers from behind riot shields showed him picking up a bin, throwing it towards police, bouncing off their riot shields.
18:42He was filmed taking part in some of the worst of the violence that day.
18:57And then it's a case of following him.
18:59Then the investigation officers would have then followed his behaviour before that and after that and that's when he'd have been caught doing the things he did.
19:07And obviously the big one was helping try and set the fire in terms of the bins into the corner.
19:16But he also at one point got hold of a police baton and was waving it at officers.
19:21And that again, that mindlessness.
19:26He hasn't thought to think that the officers are going to remember that.
19:29And you know, it's going to be clear as day or look at that individual there who was waving a police baton around.
19:33So it all formed part of his greater behaviour as one of the main protagonists in all of this.
19:40And it's just crazy. It's crazy behaviour.
19:42Police had identified Thomas Burley, a local painter and decorator with previous convictions for criminal damage, attacking emergency workers and aggravated harassment.
20:01Now, officers go to arrest him.
20:06So there have been a number of officers going there because we don't know what we'd have been faced with.
20:12Hey, put your hands up for us.
20:14What's your name? Thomas Burley.
20:16You can see there when you look at his face that it's suddenly dawned on him that they've got him.
20:22And you can see the panic in his eyes.
20:27He knows that justice has caught up with him.
20:30I don't know what he's mad.
20:31What's your name? Thomas Burley.
20:33When he says, I'm Thomas Burley, it seems to be that then he doesn't say another word as he's being let out to the van or the car that's waiting outside for him.
20:42He seems shocked that he's having the handcuffs clicked onto his wrists.
20:47And this is not the same Thomas Burley that we saw shouting at police officers 11 days before.
20:56It's really satisfying to actually see that because he's getting his comeuppance there for what he's done.
21:01And again, for the viewers who may have had a view on we should have been arrested him there and then, this is the most appropriate and safest way to do that.
21:09You know, because as soon as he dropped his face mask, this was just inevitable.
21:12That's the moment that was his last bit of freedom in that home being told that he is about to be arrested on suspicion of a very, very serious offence.
21:43Thomas Burley was jailed for nine years, then the longest sentence for anyone taking part in the riots of 2024.
21:53We've seen many people be sentenced for violent disorder in these courts, but this has been the highest prison term handed out across the country.
22:01Burley was told he would serve nine years in prison and even when released, would have a further five years on licence.
22:07The judge said that he'd considered a life sentence. A life sentence is for the most dangerous of criminals.
22:19And the judge said that he considered that. He considered Burley to be a very dangerous offender.
22:26To get what he did, nine years in prison, it's a long time.
22:31He knows damn well his actions could have caused the death or serious injury of a lot of people.
22:38So is nine years a lot? No, I don't think so. Not at all.
22:43At least 80 people have been jailed following arrests for taking part in the Rotherham riot.
22:49I thought that these will all get pieced together and these arrests would follow, but that also rewind back to the mob mentality.
23:02They surely weren't that stupid to not expect a knock at the door in the following days and weeks.
23:06There's just cameras everywhere and everything piecing together. It's just like making a jigsaw.
23:10With 64 officers injured, police finally took control of the Rotherham riot.
23:23As people started to disperse and the crowd size shrank and the more police arrived and they got more of a grip on it.
23:32They did start to arrest people. There were people that were arrested on the day.
23:37I remember one person was arrested because he'd been bitten by a police dog.
23:40We've since seen him go through the courts.
23:43So there were a lot of people who were arrested on the day, but the quality of the cameras, the quality of the video meant that
23:50I think a lot of people were picked up many days after this incident.
23:54Police and paramedics respond to a 999 call. A man stabbed, fighting to survive.
24:22The only suspect, his wife.
24:27How many times have you stabbed him?
24:30I did the once.
24:31You did the once?
24:32Once, I thought I'd get his heart. Well, he hasn't got one. And then twice in the afternoon.
24:39This would have become a category one incident and that would have seen a double crew ambulance, a rapid response vehicle,
24:47a helicopter emergency medical service or a critical care paramedic being sent to scene.
24:52Hello, Madam. Do you want to just step outside for me a minute? Can you come outside?
25:04Yes.
25:06He's on the kitchen floor.
25:07OK, at this moment in time, OK, if you just listen to my colleague.
25:13Under arrest, suspicion and attempt murder, mate.
25:15Under arrest, suspicion and attempt murder.
25:16Yes, definitely.
25:17And you do not have to say anything about it.
25:19It may harm your defence.
25:20If you do not mention one question, anything you're later relying on in court.
25:23Anything you do say may be given in evidence.
25:25I'll get in and see what they do in there.
25:28Yeah.
25:29Could I get them a coat?
25:30Just bear with me two seconds, all right?
25:32In there.
25:33I admit it all.
25:35Police aren't used to people admitting things.
25:38I admit it all.
25:40The officers will be surprised, shocked almost, that she's being so frank about what she's done.
25:48They'll probably be asking themselves, what's the subplot here? What's going on that we don't know about?
25:56Why is she acting so calmly, so matter-of-factly about what she's done?
26:08David was Penny's fourth husband and Penny was his third wife.
26:12They were both strong characters.
26:14They would clash occasionally, especially when alcohol was involved.
26:19Penny Jackson was a 66-year-old retired accountant with the Ministry of Defence.
26:25David Jackson was 78, a retired lieutenant colonel in the army.
26:30He was also a strong character.
26:32He could be quite controlling, people said, and liked things done a certain way.
26:36Before the arrest, David Jackson had dialed 999, needing urgent help.
26:52He tells the operator, I've been stabbed.
26:57And it's at that point you hear on the 999 call, Penny stab him for a second and a third time, and drops the phone.
27:04And from then on, Penny picks up the phone and she's in charge of the 999 call, while David is moaning in the background.
27:11And are you with him now?
27:16Well, I might just go and stab him again, but...
27:20All right, do not stab him again.
27:22Why?
27:23It's an odd call, isn't it?
27:24These calls don't happen very often, and the emergency call operator who was handling that call must have been thinking,
27:33Is this real?
27:34How many times have you stabbed him?
27:37I did the once.
27:38You did the once?
27:40And then he said I wouldn't do it again, so I did the first once.
27:45So how...
27:46OK.
27:47So in total, how many times?
27:49Uh, three times.
27:50Three times.
27:51OK.
27:52So just listen to my voice.
27:53OK.
27:54Stay on the line with me.
27:55I am...
27:56I am...
27:57OK.
27:58Sounding a little bit inebriated, and then coming up with that, that phrase saying I'm compus mentis.
28:05These are things that those of us who've worked in emergency services often find are somewhat of a contradiction.
28:12OK.
28:13Are you with the patient now?
28:15Well, I need the lounge for the patient in the kitchen bleeding to death with any luck.
28:21Police would have been deployed, and there would be ten emergency vehicles on scene, and perhaps as many as 20 people on scene.
28:32Quiet street, lots of engines rumbling, blue lights flashing.
28:40You can see from the body-worn video footage that their first priority when they've arrived on scene was to go and support the resuscitation efforts for David Jackson.
28:50Right.
28:51Get the ambulance in.
28:52Pronto.
28:53We need CPR.
28:54The priority of the police going to any incident is preservation of life.
28:58That trumps everything.
28:59That trumps forensic preservation.
29:01It trumps searching for witnesses.
29:03It even trumps arrests.
29:04If you can save a life, that is the first thing you do.
29:08One group of officers dealt with Penny.
29:11The others went in to try and deal with David.
29:15They know that something dreadful has happened, and they've got a woman there admitting being responsible for it.
29:21So, they brought her outside because that's the safest place for her to be.
29:26We can see by the shadows there's a number of officers around.
29:29Okay, at this moment in time, okay, if you need to listen to my colleague.
29:32Under arrest, suspicion of attempt murder, mate.
29:35Under arrest, suspicion of attempt murder.
29:37Yeah, exactly.
29:38What strikes me is that the person that actually, the officer that actually makes the arrest seems to be a student officer in training.
29:47And I say that for a couple of reasons.
29:49One is that another officer effectively tells him to arrest her on suspicion of attempted murder.
29:58Under arrest, suspicion of attempt murder, mate.
30:00Under arrest, suspicion of attempt murder.
30:02And he says those words in exactly the same words as he's been told to say it.
30:07So, that strikes me as somebody that's learning their craft.
30:11You do not have to say anything.
30:12It may harm your defence.
30:14If you do not mention one question, anything you're later aligning for.
30:17And if you do say, maybe given an evidence.
30:19He seems slightly kind of nervous.
30:21I mean, who wouldn't be in this situation anyway?
30:24When I was a student officer, I never arrested anybody for attempted murder.
30:27It's normally shoplifting, drink drivers, assaults, that sort of thing.
30:32To make an arrest for an attempt murder, presumably that early in your career,
30:37is something that will stick with that officer for a long time.
30:40Under arrest, suspicion of attempt murder.
30:42You do not have to say anything.
30:44It may harm me.
30:45When Jackson's arrested on suspicion of attempted murder,
30:50she says, hopefully not, in relation to the attempted murder.
30:55You do not have to say anything.
30:56It's not really.
30:57She wants this to be murder.
30:59She wants her husband to have died.
31:01Yeah.
31:02Could I get on the coat?
31:03Just bear with me two seconds, all right?
31:05In there.
31:06All she's worried about is her coat.
31:08She's been arrested for attempted murder.
31:10She must know she's going to go to prison for a long time.
31:13She's just worried about her coat.
31:15All about her.
31:16Ow!
31:17Wait two seconds.
31:18Jackson is put in handcuffs, which she instantly complains about are too tight.
31:24And she's led away from the house so that police and paramedics can try and save David's life.
31:30When they put the handcuffs on, she's obviously not fighting.
31:37But that's not to say that she won't.
31:39Because it might suddenly occur to her that, actually, I'm in a whole lot of trouble here.
31:43So she might end up becoming violent.
31:46Desperate attempts continue to save the life of David Jackson.
31:51A path is cleared for the arrival of paramedics.
31:55With any luck, you'll be too late.
31:58All right, get the ambulance in pronto.
32:00We need CPR.
32:01Oh, don't.
32:02No, no, no.
32:03Please don't.
32:04Has she got an arrow?
32:05Yeah, we need the ambulance in.
32:06I should have stabbed him a bit more.
32:08We've got CPR being done at the moment.
32:10Right.
32:11Yeah.
32:12Come on.
32:13Come and meet me.
32:14Here, the officer is doing exactly what the officer should do and calling for the ambulance to come in to perform more specialised life support.
32:23We should have stabbed him a bit more.
32:26I think if she could, she'd have stood in their way and stopped them getting in.
32:29She was that disappointed that there was a chance that her husband was going to survive.
32:34And if I haven't done it properly, I'm really annoyed.
32:44Inside a small bungalow on the Somerset seaside, paramedics try to save the life of David Jackson, aged 78.
33:00Stabbed three times by his wife, Penny, aged 66.
33:05Under arrest for a suspicion of a step murder.
33:08You do not have to say anything.
33:10It may harm your defence.
33:12With domestic violence murders, there's usually a back story to them.
33:17Yes.
33:18I stabbed him.
33:20Once.
33:23Because he's a...
33:24No, I'm going to send them over.
33:27He's an aggressive bully and nasty, and I've had enough.
33:37And when he said...
33:40You wouldn't do it.
33:43I did it twice more.
33:45When she says on camera that he goaded her, he was an aggressive bully...
33:52He's an aggressive bully and nasty, and I've had enough.
33:58You know, she says those things, and to a degree they may be true, but the way she says them, it's almost as if by killing him, she's got one up on him.
34:11And when he said, you wouldn't do it, I did it twice more.
34:26For years, there had been rising tension between Penny and David Jackson.
34:31Penny was described as goading her husband sometimes into a fight, into arguments, and would put him down.
34:41And a lot of David's family would eventually not speak to Penny because they disliked how she treated him.
34:58Penny was sending David texts saying that she couldn't cope.
35:04That he frightened her and that she didn't want to grow old like this.
35:08When the COVID-19 lockdowns happened, this just seemed to make things all the more worse.
35:27They were stuck together in the house, and Penny actually posted something on her Facebook page.
35:33Quarantined with hubby for two weeks.
35:36Gertrude is knitting something special for him.
35:38And the image that went along with this was a woman knitting a noose for her husband.
35:51There'd been a call to the police where there'd been a row about remote control.
35:56And David had been verbally violent.
36:00And Penny had locked him in the conservatory.
36:03And David smashed his way out of the conservatory.
36:13The years of feuding came to a head on February the 13th, 2021.
36:18They were sitting down in their house to a birthday Zoom meal with their daughter Isabel and her husband.
36:28Where they'd each cooked a meal at their own houses and they were sharing it over their laptops, watching each other.
36:33Penny and David had fallen out seriously over something as small as Penny serving bubble and squeak rather than potatoes with the meal.
36:42Bubble and squeak is just a fried up collection of vegetables.
36:46It's thought of as a bit of a peasant dish.
36:50And David thought that something better should have been served alongside their meal.
36:56A lot of alcohol had been drunk and people would say, after a lot of alcohol had been drunk, Penny would get abusive.
37:04First, Penny Jackson grabbed a kitchen knife.
37:12She told David that she was going to kill herself.
37:17And when he said that she was pathetic for saying that, that is when she stabbed him.
37:24She stabs him in the chest.
37:26He gets up.
37:27It hasn't been a fatal blow.
37:29And he walks to the kitchen.
37:31He calls 999 and tells the operator, I've been stabbed.
37:37From then on, Penny picks up the phone.
37:41Are you with him now?
37:43Well, I might just go and stab him again.
37:46Oh, I do not stab him again.
37:49Taken into custody after being arrested for attempted murder, Penny Jackson appeared unconcerned about her husband.
38:01What colour is your coat?
38:03In the front.
38:04Yeah.
38:05Grey wardrobe.
38:07OK, it might be a while.
38:08All right, but I'll try and get, there's obviously a lot going on.
38:11OK.
38:13She's still going on about the coat.
38:14She's sat in the car, still going on about her coat.
38:17With any luck, it'll be too late.
38:19My advice is don't talk about it now, OK?
38:23And the officer is trying to protect her from herself.
38:27So the best way for people to make any comment or omissions about a crime they've committed is in an interview room, in a police station, having had legal advice with a solicitor or a legal representative with them.
38:40He's kind of saying, look, come on, this is not the best place to do it. He's protecting her.
38:45All of the omissions are admissible because she's being cautioned. But he's almost saying to her, look, you know, just take a breath, you know, get some legal advice and, you know, let's not do it in the back of the police car.
38:56That's not the best place for you. Yet still she carries on.
39:01I have no intention of not agreeing to what I've done.
39:07She cannot be quiet. She cannot stop admitting it.
39:11I know what I've done.
39:12All right.
39:13And I know why I've done it. And if I haven't done it properly, I'm really annoyed.
39:20Then a message comes through that changes the picture dramatically.
39:24Her husband, David, has died from his injuries. So this has now escalated from an attempted murder to murder because now somebody has died.
39:44All right, Penny, I'm arresting, further arresting you for murder.
39:48Oh, good.
39:50And she, rather than throwing her head in her hands and being shocked and crying and any regret, her reply is, oh, good.
39:59All right, Penny, I'm arresting, further arresting you for murder.
40:04Oh, good.
40:05I've already cautioned you. So your necessities for your arrest is for an appropriate and effective investigation.
40:10Yeah.
40:11And stop further harm.
40:13Sorry, that one's a bit tight.
40:15So Penny was, we're going to, we're going to, we're going to move them to the rear in a minute.
40:19She's immediately worrying about her handcuffs and how tight her handcuffs are.
40:23She doesn't care. She doesn't care. In fact, she's quite delighted that she's finished the job.
40:28The, um, Dio's just come out to, um, check your temperature and then we'll, we'll move you in.
40:32It's mine, Gerard.
40:34Just stay there for the time being.
40:35All right.
40:37I wouldn't buy my slippers.
40:39I don't know.
40:40She's complaining about not having her coat, wanting her slippers.
40:45The gravity of the situation doesn't seem to be there.
40:49Step up, Mindred.
40:50Yeah.
40:51Right, Dio.
40:53I'm very sorry for being a nuisance.
40:56No, we've just got to take your temperature, OK?
40:58Yeah.
41:00Well, that would be just really great, get Covid on the top of this.
41:03If I saw video evidence like this as a, as an investigator, I would be incredulous about the, just the heartless nature of her response.
41:20But at her trial, despite all her admissions, Penny Jackson claimed she didn't intend to kill her husband.
41:35It was manslaughter, not murder.
41:39Penny Jackson spent four days giving evidence in the witness box.
41:43She was trying to convince the jury that she couldn't remember any of the incriminating things she'd said or done.
41:50She would try to feign emotion and cry, but it never came across as realistic.
41:57It never came across as, as genuine emotion.
42:01A former Ministry of Defence accountant has been found guilty of murdering her husband, a retired Lieutenant Colonel.
42:08Penelope Jackson, aged 67, was jailed for life with a minimum term of 18 years.
42:17The 999 call and the arrest footage that was captured on the police body cameras was crucial, I think, in getting the conviction against Penny Jackson.
42:27The judge said Penelope Jackson had tarnished the memory of her husband and that while giving evidence over four days, she had not shown a shred of genuine remorse for her terrible crime.
42:40I've dealt with domestic violence murders in the past where women have stabbed their partners.
42:48I stabbed him.
42:49I was just about to tell you, just hold on.
42:52Once.
42:53Because he did.
42:55No, I'm going to send them all.
43:01He's an aggressive bully and nasty and I've had enough.
43:06And very often it is self-defense.
43:10Very often they have been tipped over the edge by years of, of emotional abuse, physical abuse, coercive control.
43:19That's nothing like this.
43:20And when he said, you wouldn't do it, I did it twice more.
43:27This is cold-blooded murder.
43:29I'll
43:42So much for this long, too.
43:44So we'll have to drink an interesting submission.
43:47Well, since we'll have our eternal legacy,000 however, in particular ways.
43:53We're doing nothing that will come together and do it which wasn't our disaster.
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