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Short filmTranscript
00:00If you talk to me, then I will guide you.
00:03Every day, we're being bombarded by scammers.
00:06I've got no money in my bank.
00:08I'm on, I have to pay.
00:11But we are fighting back.
00:13Working with ethical hacker Jim Browning, who hacks into scam call centres,
00:18we can tap into this criminal network and track down the victims to stop the scammers before they steal.
00:25You should not buy those gift cards.
00:26You're going to lose your money.
00:28What was that? What was that?
00:29I can assure you that nothing they're saying is true.
00:32You're on the phone to a scammer, Malik. You need to hang up the phone.
00:35Hang up!
00:37This is Scam Interceptors.
00:44On today's episode...
00:47Siraj, is that Siraj?
00:51Siraj, this is Rab Wilding from the Scam Interceptors programme.
00:54We confront the scammers behind some of the nastiest scams we've heard.
00:59Siraj, why are you scamming people?
01:02Yeah.
01:02Why are you trying to steal from people, Siraj?
01:05Yeah, I'm not scamming.
01:12Okay.
01:13So, ma'am, I'm further complete this application, okay?
01:15This morning, we're listening in to the criminal activity taking place at a call centre located in Lahore, Pakistan.
01:24So, ma'am, I simply said the date of end of every month, okay?
01:27Your monthly bill is received end of every month, okay?
01:31But, thanks to ethical hacker Jim Browning's tech wizardry, we can't just hear these scammers.
01:38We can see them too.
01:41He's hacked into the office's security cameras.
01:44Jim has basically been able to map the whole room.
01:51So, we know pretty much who's sat where in that room and exactly who it is we're going to be listening to.
01:56I mean, they're operating in many ways like an ordinary sales team would do.
02:00They're starting on time, they have breaks structured into their day.
02:04And, Jim, I think that's pretty much correct across the board, isn't it, in terms of this kind of work?
02:07Yeah, almost every scam call centre has the same sort of set up, so they will definitely have targets to meet.
02:14If you don't meet those targets, you can get, ultimately, you can get sacked as a result.
02:18So, they only want the best of the best, the people who will actually get money for the bosses.
02:23With that in mind, where we are right now, we are at the end of a month.
02:28That potentially could mean this lot are going to try even harder to hit certain targets.
02:33You will find they will be quite aggressive to get those targets.
02:36So, even if somebody is ill or someone isn't cooperative, they will have these rebuttals, these statements that they can use to keep somebody engaged.
02:46Unbelievable.
02:48Jim, thank you.
02:50The scammers have no idea that we are watching their every move and gathering information on who they are.
02:58Faizan, is this guy here? I'm pretty sure that's him.
03:02Yes.
03:03Yeah, that's why he's got a boss man standing over him right now, because this is advanced.
03:06Okay.
03:07We know that the scammer on the call is called Faizan.
03:12He is one of 20 workers in this office, run by a company called Tech Harbor Solutions, not to be confused with other companies with a similar name.
03:22I'm telling you that at this time, I simply cancel the previous all the bills under your name, okay?
03:30And they're all managed by these two people.
03:35That is the boss man from there, isn't it?
03:37The corner guy who's sitting in the corner.
03:38It's him and her.
03:39Yeah, these two.
03:39These two are like the floor managers of this room.
03:42So, I simply said I dragged David under your name, okay?
03:45The scammer is talking to a woman somewhere in the UK.
03:49He's pretending to be from her mobile phone provider, Three.
03:53He's claiming he can offer her a better deal on her contract and a free gift if she signs up for the new offer.
03:59So, this is the phone scam again.
04:01Ma'am, if you don't mind, please open your WhatsApp, okay?
04:06I'm sending your full name.
04:07But we know Faizan isn't from Three.
04:11And all he's interested in is getting this woman's personal information and bank details so that he can place an order for a pricey mobile phone in her name.
04:22But that must be at quite an advanced stage, the one you've just picked up on now.
04:25They've been 15 minutes in the call.
04:27Though we have this person's mobile number, Scammer Faizan is speaking to her on it.
04:33We need another way of contacting her.
04:35Yeah, I'm sending her again.
04:37Text you, okay?
04:38In your WhatsApp, okay?
04:39You check, I mentioned your name, is correct?
04:43Oh, my goodness.
04:45If you don't mind, I'm really sorry.
04:48It's correct.
04:50We've heard a name, Rhonda MacDonald.
04:52Whilst the team looks for more information on her, the Scammer may have given us an opportunity to get Rhonda's attention.
05:00So she's going to be checking messages, if we need to send one, because she's going to be checking her phone now.
05:07Number, guys?
05:08Read that number out, Harley.
05:1007.
05:10The Scammer is trying to get Rhonda to receive a WhatsApp message in order to confirm her name and email address.
05:20So we want to make sure she sees our warning message when she looks at her phone.
05:26So if we can send that text now, Nick, because we know she's checking her phone.
05:30But a clearly distressed Rhonda isn't playing ball with the Scammer's.
05:36And ma'am, could you please reply me on your email?
05:41Eh, I can't do that anymore, son.
05:45With Rhonda slipping from the Scammer's grasp, he changes tactic, reminding her of the amazing half-price deal she is signing up to.
05:55So I'm simply cancelled the £10 under your name and send out one bill in the £5, OK?
06:02So it's £5.
06:05But to set up the deal, the Scammer wants Rhonda's bank details.
06:10I'm telling you, where to seek short code and AD account number for the set of drug debit under your name?
06:16No, no, no. You've got all that there, son.
06:19I'll take the doctor to speak to his own.
06:21No.
06:21She's got a doctor's appointment and he's trying to keep her on the phone.
06:27I'm telling you, I'm saying, please.
06:29I'm going to phone you for now. I'm not happy with us.
06:33Given her distress, we need to speak to Rhonda as soon as we can.
06:38Can we try and call it, just in case it gets her off the phone?
06:41Call waiting. Let's try.
06:42I know she's on that phone.
06:44Your call has been forwarded to an order.
06:50Rhonda has now been on the phone to Scammers for 20 minutes.
06:55But with Faison not making any progress, he calls for backup.
06:58OK, hold on. I'm simply trans for this call. My senior, OK, she explained her a better way, OK?
07:05Hold on, hold on.
07:07Yeah.
07:08He's taking me to the boss. Look, here she comes. Headset transfer.
07:10Yeah, it was him. Yeah. Brilliant.
07:12Yeah.
07:13This is the boss.
07:15Yeah, hello. How are you doing today?
07:16Hey, I'm not very well, and I've got this word.
07:21What happened?
07:21Oh, yeah.
07:25Right, let me try it again. She didn't pick up. I don't think she's got a call waiting.
07:28OK, so I know that we are on the call from a long time, ma'am.
07:31So I just want your two to three minutes to proceed it further.
07:34If you would like to confirm me your further details.
07:38The scammer continues pressing Rhonda for her bank details.
07:43You already have my child number.
07:46Yeah, you are absolutely right. We do have your old details.
07:51But right now, ma'am, I have to cancel your existing bill from your name of £10.
07:56And then I will be able to set a new bill under your name.
08:01So make sure...
08:03Absolute lies.
08:04This lady said she's ill, she's got the flu, she's waiting to speak to her doctors,
08:08and this lot are just relentless keeping her on the phone.
08:10It's absolutely horrific to witness.
08:13The scammers seem to have won Rhonda round.
08:18We're about to get a sort-coded account number.
08:21And what is the account number?
08:24Despite our repeated calls and scam warning text messages, we can't get Rhonda off the call.
08:30So the team look for a different way to contact her.
08:34They think they've picked up a Glaswegian accent.
08:38There's about eight hits on 192 for an R McDonald in Glasgow.
08:41So maybe with a bit more detail, we need some more details.
08:44We need more detail.
08:44We need to see to keep this in.
08:45But while we continue the search, the scammer is now asking Rhonda for money.
08:54OK, ma'am.
08:56And ma'am, for all of this procedure, there is just a security hold today,
09:00which is an amount of £32.
09:03It's a one-time hold for today.
09:05£32.
09:06Ronda's told the money is a security deposit to be refunded when she receives her free gift.
09:14Except, of course, it won't be.
09:16They're offering AirPods.
09:18That's what they're offering now.
09:20The scammer just wants Rhonda's bank card details.
09:24And ethical hacker Jim knows why.
09:26I think they're after as many card details as possible.
09:32The way this works is they don't have to reset her account.
09:37What they can do is just take all of her personal details and just sign her up directly.
09:42Oh, wow.
09:42This is just to create an account on her account.
09:45Complete new account.
09:46Yeah.
09:47It's even worse.
09:48You can write my number if you have pen and paper with you.
09:50The scammer will use the bank card details alongside the other personal information they have tricked
09:57Rhonda into revealing to open an account with a mobile phone provider.
10:03They'll then order an expensive phone and leave Rhonda footing the bill.
10:09I'm not being cheeky to you.
10:11I don't mean to be.
10:13It's just been a long call.
10:15And I get threatened, you know.
10:18Poor thing.
10:19She's so stressed.
10:19What you can do, you can use that card in which you just have 32 pounds to hold for a security.
10:30And make sure the card number must be registered on flat number.
10:36She's got flat number.
10:38Do you want to just have a look through the Glasgow list?
10:40The flat number allows us to narrow our Glasgow search as we identify Rhonda's home address.
10:47But the scammer is moving quickly.
10:50I need the long card number, 16 digits.
10:5416 digits.
10:56Yeah.
10:57They've definitely bullied her to get her this far.
11:00She's handed over all these bank details now.
11:03She needs to speak to her bank.
11:04The scammer then tells Rhonda to expect a text message from her bank to confirm her £32 payment.
11:11But we believe it will contain a one-time passcode authorising the purchase of an expensive mobile phone.
11:19I will not be doing any transaction right now.
11:23Within two hours, your bank will send you a text message on your mobile number.
11:29Bank will ask for your permission first, that we are going to make the payment.
11:36If you will allow your bank, ma'am, then the payment will be held and the parcel is going to be dispatched.
11:43But rather than receiving her free gift, it will be an expensive mobile phone,
11:49which she'll be talked into posting onto the scammers.
11:52The scammer tells Rhonda she'll get a call back in the next two hours.
12:03We believe this is to give the scammers time to open an account
12:07and make a purchase using Rhonda's bank card details.
12:12But it gives us an opportunity to raise the alarm.
12:16Yes, ma'am. Within two hours, you will receive a call.
12:20Within two hours, they're saying.
12:22Oh, come on, let her go.
12:25We watch for the call to end.
12:28Thank you so much for your involvement.
12:29OK, sounds like the call's going to end.
12:31That's going to be my chance to go in and speak to Rhonda.
12:37Best wishes for you.
12:38Such a lovely current.
12:39No problem, ma'am.
12:42Right, headsets off.
12:43Headsets off.
12:44Still open, though. Tell me when, Nick.
12:47Tell me when.
12:49There we go.
12:50Right, let's go for it.
12:52Oh, cool.
12:52You jump in.
12:53She's going to be expecting them.
12:54Yeah.
12:58Hello?
12:59Hi, is that Rhonda?
13:01Yeah.
13:02Hello, Rhonda.
13:02Sorry to call you out the blue like this.
13:04My name's Rav Wilding.
13:05I'm calling from the BBC Scam Interceptor programme.
13:08Right.
13:09The person you were just talking to are scammers.
13:12They're not who they claim to be.
13:14Oh, my God.
13:16Have you just had a...
13:17Do we?
13:18Yeah.
13:18Have you just had a lengthy conversation with someone claiming to be from your mobile phone
13:21company?
13:22Yeah.
13:23Aye.
13:24Yeah, Rhonda, they're not.
13:25Have you got one in my bank?
13:26Yes.
13:27They're claiming to send you something in the post, like a free gift, I suspect.
13:31That's right.
13:31Yeah, it's not a free gift.
13:33And they've got all my bank details now.
13:35They have, Rhonda.
13:36So, what they would have done is taken your details in order to order some new phones
13:40in your name.
13:41So, I need you to speak to your bank as soon as you get off the phone and tell them what's
13:45happened to us.
13:46I'm actually in my bed sick, you know?
13:48Oh, you poor thing.
13:50How silly was I?
13:51You're not silly at all, Rhonda.
13:53So, you speak to your bank first, then speak to the three network, tell them what's happened.
13:58And I really hope you feel better soon, Rhonda, OK?
14:01Thank you so much.
14:02No problem.
14:03And I won't let you know how I got on.
14:04All right, then, Rhonda, you take care.
14:06Thank you very much.
14:07All right, speak to you soon.
14:09Take care, bye-bye.
14:09Bye.
14:12Oh, my goodness, what a lovely lady.
14:14She had no idea that she was being scammed.
14:17Genuinely, she's ill, and they kept her on longer and longer and longer.
14:23She tried to get off the phone.
14:2440 minutes by the time we got her off.
14:25She's exhausted.
14:26She's absolutely exhausted.
14:27I've offered her support.
14:29She's OK at the moment.
14:30She wants to speak to her bank first.
14:31I think that's the priority because she has given all the details across to them.
14:35And we don't know what they could do with that.
14:39Later that day, we got back in touch with Rhonda.
14:42She'd spoken to her bank, which confirmed that no purchases had been made using her card.
14:48If you think you've been scammed, then there are some steps you need to take straight away.
14:55Firstly, call your bank.
14:57The number is usually on the back of your bank card.
15:01Remove any software that scammers have asked you to install on your phone or laptop.
15:06Change your passwords on as many online accounts as you can.
15:11Report the crime to action fraud.
15:12Go to actionfraud.police.uk or call 0300 123 2040.
15:19If you're in Scotland, report the crime to the police on 101.
15:23And if you've had a scam text, forward that to 7726.
15:28That spells spam on your phone's keypad.
15:31The more that you report, the more that can be done to stop them.
15:35The call centre that targeted Rhonda goes by the name Tech Harbour Solutions.
15:44Their scam centres around ordering expensive mobile phones in their target's name.
15:51When the target receives these items in the post,
15:55the scammer tells them there's been a mistake and to return it for a refund.
15:59But rather than sending it to a company's warehouse,
16:04it will be sent to an address under the scammer's control.
16:09And it's these addresses we want to know more about.
16:14This is what we're going to do today.
16:16You're going to actually make a call.
16:18And you're going to say that you've just had phones delivered that you know nothing about.
16:22That wasn't what you thought was going to happen.
16:24And what do you need to do then, according to the scammers?
16:28Yeah.
16:28And what we want from them is a crucial bit of information
16:32as the address as to where the phones go is something we don't currently have.
16:37And that's crucial, isn't it?
16:39It is, yeah.
16:39So what we call mules are basically networks of people within the UK
16:44who are in the pay of the scammers
16:46and who are essential to the way that their business works.
16:49These mules will basically be getting a cut
16:51of whatever profits the scammers make in return for their services.
16:54Armed with a fake identity and a plausible backstory, Nick makes the call.
17:02Oh, hello.
17:09I'm a bit confused.
17:12I've had a phone delivered this morning.
17:14OK, can I have your name, sir?
17:17Yeah, sure.
17:18It's Nick Smith.
17:20I wasn't expecting a phone.
17:22I was expecting like a new SIM card.
17:25I'm just checking the details for you.
17:27It's still online.
17:29OK, sir.
17:29So what I can do for you, sir,
17:30I can provide you a prepaid QR code,
17:33a barcode in your email or in your WhatsApp number
17:37so you can visit any of the nearest Ronna Post office
17:41and drop off the wrong parcel over there, OK?
17:43Brilliant.
17:44Thank you so much.
17:44Bye, take care.
17:45Bye-bye.
17:46Bye.
17:49So she said she's going to send you a QR code
17:53with a prepaid label,
17:55but I think you did it.
17:57I hope so.
17:58I mean, I think they've been very clever
17:59in that rather than just sending people addresses,
18:02they're sending these QR codes
18:04because obviously that makes it seem
18:05much more official for starters.
18:07Also, it means that when people actually receive the address
18:10that they're meant to send their returned phone to,
18:12they're not going to see that it's just a residential address.
18:16The QR code should contain the mule address,
18:20but scanning the code only leads to more confusion.
18:24Oh, hang on, this is weird.
18:25There's loads of address details.
18:27Oh, really?
18:28So there's another person on here.
18:31There's two different addresses.
18:34But Interceptor Harleen has a solution.
18:37So, Harleen, we've got a plan in place, haven't we?
18:39So you're going to actually go to the post office
18:41and ask them to scan the code,
18:43but not post anything at this stage.
18:46Exactly.
18:47I think if you scan the code,
18:48if they're willing to do that,
18:49we can at least find out where it's going to go.
18:52Let's do it.
18:52Thanks, Harleen.
18:53Producer Mark and Harleen head to the post office.
19:01That's the destination?
19:03Oh, it's Sunderland.
19:07Fantastic.
19:09We have got the address.
19:10Getting a suspected mule address is a major breakthrough.
19:18It could give us clues as to who is working with the scammers in Pakistan.
19:23A few days later, we post a dummy package
19:28that looks like a mobile phone,
19:30but instead is full of worthless paper
19:33to the address Harleen obtained.
19:36The next day, our ground interceptor team, Nathan and Lauren,
19:42arrive at the location to surveil the property
19:45and to see who receives our package.
19:48And it's not long before the postie arrives.
19:53Oh, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.
19:54That's it.
19:55So it's being posted now.
19:58Up with someone.
19:59It looks to be a man.
20:04But can't get much more from here because we're quite far away.
20:10He has accepted the package.
20:12Right, the postie's just left.
20:14Delivered.
20:15Delivered.
20:21So we have absolute confirmation that the package that's just been delivered
20:24is the package that the hub have sent.
20:26The stakeout has confirmed that this property is receiving goods
20:31obtained fraudulently by scammers
20:33from the scam call centre, Tech Harbour Solutions.
20:38Time for Nick to ask the residents at the address some questions.
20:45Hello there.
20:46Nick Stapleton, BBC Scam Interceptors.
20:48I just want to understand why you're getting phones delivered to this address for scammers.
20:53More?
20:54Yeah, I think you are.
20:55We sent one, a package, earlier today.
20:57You receive packages to this address
20:59that are being sent on to scammers in Lahore in Pakistan.
21:03I don't know.
21:03Why are you doing that?
21:05I'm not doing it.
21:06You're not doing that?
21:07No, I'm not doing it.
21:07Someone else who lives here does that?
21:09He went to London.
21:11He went to London?
21:12Yeah, yeah.
21:13The man tells us that his housemate,
21:15who moved in a few weeks ago,
21:17took the package with him to London
21:19shortly after it arrived.
21:21These phones that are coming here,
21:23they're stolen.
21:24They're from people who have been defrauded.
21:27So this guy who lives with you,
21:28he's helping criminals.
21:30Oh.
21:30He's making money by stealing from people.
21:33No, really, I don't know.
21:34Yeah.
21:34I will ask him when he comes back.
21:37I'd really like to talk to him.
21:39Yeah, but when he comes tomorrow,
21:41then you can talk with him, yeah.
21:43Okay.
21:43And when he comes tomorrow, then...
21:44There's a number on there so he can contact us, all right?
21:46All right, thank you very much.
21:47Get him to call me.
21:49All right, thank you, mate.
21:49Okay?
21:50Thank you, bro.
21:51Thank you, mate.
21:51Have a good evening.
21:52See ya.
21:55Hmm.
21:55We never heard back from the flatmate,
21:57but we're determined to take further action
22:00against the Tech Harbour Solutions scammers.
22:04But we don't just want to disrupt their operation in the UK.
22:08We want to find out where exactly in Lahore
22:11the call centre is based,
22:14information we intend to pass on to authorities.
22:20Over the next few weeks,
22:21we continue to monitor the call centre
22:24and the team eventually get a breakthrough.
22:28Alice, how are you getting on
22:29just trying to find out where this operation is actually based?
22:33So I found out a couple of things.
22:35We had access to some external CCTV.
22:38Yeah.
22:39So I took a still of that.
22:41And we could see a sign across the road.
22:43We could only see half of the sign.
22:45Okay, so from that,
22:46what have you managed to find out?
22:48So I managed to find an educational college
22:50which has the same font.
22:54This is great.
22:54So this is the building that's right next to
22:57where that image was taken.
22:59We think so.
23:00It matches the general area
23:02that we thought they were in.
23:03We now know with certainty
23:05exactly where these scammers are,
23:08information we can pass on to the authorities
23:11in Lahore.
23:13With our time in the hub coming to an end
23:15and our investigation into the call centre complete,
23:19we want to confront the scammers
23:21and call them out on their criminal behaviour.
23:24Now, we want to speak to these people
23:26now that we've gathered all our evidence
23:28and literally put to them what we know
23:29about this criminal operation.
23:31And one of the things we can do
23:32is merging the calls.
23:34How does it work?
23:34So it essentially means
23:36we can start a conference call
23:37with a scammer and one of their targets.
23:39So you will be joining a live call
23:41that a scammer is having
23:42with somebody in the UK
23:43while they're trying to get
23:44all this information out of them
23:45so that they can steal phones from them.
23:47So literally in real time,
23:48I can speak to the scammer
23:49and tell both them
23:51and the potential target
23:52they're speaking to
23:52that they are criminals
23:53trying to steal from them.
23:54That's it, yeah.
23:55Can't wait.
23:55This is our only chance.
23:58As soon as I speak,
24:00the scammers will almost certainly
24:02wipe their computers,
24:03meaning we'll no longer
24:04be able to listen to their calls.
24:07It's imperative that we tell the scammers
24:09that we know exactly what they're up to
24:11and that we'll be reporting
24:13their criminal activity.
24:15And we're not working alone.
24:17We've drafted in the help of Jim
24:19and a scambator based in the US
24:22who will work with us
24:23to take down the American part
24:25of this global operation.
24:27What we are going to do today
24:29is almost a global pincer attack
24:33on this operation.
24:35That's it.
24:36One of Jim's contacts,
24:37he will be having conversations
24:38with the US side of this operation
24:40while we start having conversations
24:42with those who target the UK.
24:43So we're going to make sure
24:44we all do this at exactly the right time
24:46and then we're going to strike
24:47and hopefully take them down.
24:49It's about time.
24:52We monitor the CCTV closely
24:54as our pincer plan takes effect.
24:58Oh, look, they're all gathered rounds.
24:59So someone's got something going on.
25:00Something going on over here.
25:02The American scambator strikes first,
25:05calling one of the scammers
25:06and telling them
25:08that we've all been monitoring
25:10their criminal behaviour.
25:11As the scammers realise
25:15that their every move is being watched,
25:19realisation sets in.
25:22Many of the agents
25:23begin to abandon their stations.
25:26And it's obvious
25:28that the scammers
25:29aren't too pleased with us.
25:31They hold an emergency meeting
25:36at the manager's desk
25:37and eventually
25:39they disconnect their cameras.
25:42That camera's frozen.
25:44All the cameras are shut down.
25:46While the US operation
25:48has taken down the CCTV,
25:51remarkably,
25:52there are still some scammers
25:54targeting the UK.
25:55We've still got the ability
25:57with our special bit of kit
25:58to merge into their calls
26:00so we can still disrupt
26:01their activity.
26:02Let's have a chat
26:02with some of them, shall we?
26:03Yeah, let's do it.
26:12Hi, is that Mohammed Arsall?
26:19Is that Mohammed Arsall there?
26:22Straight off.
26:23OK, let's try and get
26:23another one quickly.
26:27Siraj, is that Siraj?
26:31Siraj, this is Rav Wilding
26:32from the Scam Interceptors program.
26:35Siraj, why are you scamming people?
26:37Yeah.
26:38Why are you trying
26:39to steal from people, Siraj?
26:42Yeah, I'm not scanning.
26:44Yes, you are.
26:45Siraj, why are you pretending
26:46you're from a mobile phone company?
26:48Why are you doing it?
26:51Why are you doing it, Siraj?
26:54Do you know it's a crime?
26:57Yeah, what is my name?
27:01Siraj, why are you doing it?
27:04No, no.
27:05No, my name is not Siraj.
27:07What's your name then?
27:09Is it Nazish?
27:10What's my name?
27:11Is it Tamar?
27:12No.
27:12Is it Abil?
27:14What?
27:14I know who you work with.
27:16I'm your father.
27:17I'm your father.
27:18What's your name then?
27:21The Tech Harbour Solutions scammers
27:23have gotten a real fright.
27:25And a few moments later...
27:27Server's down.
27:31Pulled it.
27:32The whole thing's gone?
27:33Thanks, sir.
27:34They pull the plug on the entire operation.
27:40Well, there was definitely a lot of chat I could hear in the background.
27:44They were repeating some of what was said, wasn't there?
27:46There was clearly some panic, it sounded like.
27:50And right now, there's no calls being made.
27:52None whatsoever.
27:53No, they've completely signed off the server.
27:55They are a dead call center.
27:57And when we started this, that was incredibly busy.
27:59We saw the amount of calls that were going on.
28:01Huge volume of people working for them always.
28:02And, you know, usually 20, 25 calls at one time.
28:05They won't be able to follow through with their scams right now.
28:06No way.
28:07So that is a result.
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